JIM: THIS WEEK ON A LIVELY EXPERIMENT, A DEAD HEAT IN THE GOVERNOR'S RACE WITH A MONTH TO GO.

AND TOO BUSY TO DEBATE THEIR OPPONENTS.

>> A LIVELY EXPERIENCE IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> I'M GIANT HAZE AND WHITE JUNIOR.

FOR OVER 30 YEARS, -- I AM JOHN HAYES AND WHITE JUNIOR.

FOR OVER 30 YEARS, LIVELY EXPERIMENT PROVIDES -- I'M A PROUD SUPPORTER OF THIS.

JIM: JOINING US WITH ANALYSIS, KEN BLOCK, FOUNDER OF WATCHDOG RI.

W PRI TARGET 12 INVESTIGATOR TIM WHITE, AND RETIRED URI POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR MAUREEN MO KLEE.

HELLO AND WELCOME TO THIS WEEK'S LIVELY.

WITH THE HOME STRETCH TO PRIMARY DAY ON THE HORIZON, THE LATEST WE PRI ROGER UNIVERSITY POLL SHOWS A NET CAN RACE BETWEEN DAN MCKEE AND NELLIE GORBEA WITH ALAYNA FOLKS MAKING UP THE GROUND OF THE BACKSTRETCH.

THAT IS THE HEADLINE OF THE PULL THAT COVERED GROUND.

WE HAVE A LOT OF GROUND TO COVER.

YOU HAVE BEEN IN THIS NECKDEEP.

ANY SURPRISES FOR YOU?

TIM: THE SURPRISES FOR ME IS HOW UNEXCITED THE VOTERS ARE FOR THIS.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 21 PERCENT IN THIS POLL OF VOTERS STILL ARE NOT SURE.

YOU HAVE GOVERNOR MCKEE AND SECRETARY OF STATE GORE VAHE SORT OF FLATLINING IN THE UPPER 20'S AND REALLY HAVE NOT MOVED THE NEEDLE TOO MUCH.

HELENA FOLKS HAS COME UP I WOULD SAY EIGHT OR NINE POINTS FROM HER LAST POLL IN MAY, IT MAKE SENSE, THE FIRST PERSON ON THE AIR AND THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF ADS BUT THE CAMPAIGNS HAVE DONE REALLY NOTHING TO TRY AND MOVE THE NEEDLE AT ALL.

THE OTHER CANDIDATES RUNNING AGAINST GOVERNOR MCKEE HAVE ALLOWED HIM TO DO A LOT OF PRESS EVENTS AS THE INCUMBENT GOVERNOR AND DO THT?

OR VAHE AND THE FRONTRUNNERS HAVE NOT HELD PRESS CONFERENCES, AND HAVE NOT TRIED TO GET EARNED MEDIA.

JIM: WHY?

TIM: THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION YOU WILL HAVE TO ASK THE CAMPAIGNS AS TO WHY THEY ARE DOING THAT.

THEY ARE LIMITED IN MONEY, WE WILL START SEEING A LOT MORE OF THE COMMERCIALS INTO THE FINAL WEEKS OF THE PRIMARY.

THAT IS THE PAID ADVERTISING, BUT WHY NOT TRY TO GARNER SOME OF THE FREE PRESS?

THAT IS WHAT HAS SURPRISED ME.

PROF. MOAKLEY: A COUPLE THINGS I NOTICED AS THEY ARE VERY CLOSE BUT AS WE POINTED OUT, 42% OF THE PEOPLE COULD CHANGE THEIR MIND.

THERE'S A LOT OF FLUIDITY.

THE OTHER THING THAT STUCK OUT TO ME IS THERE'S NOT MUCH OF A GENDER GAP.

I LOOKED THROUGH THE NUMBERS AND THERE IS ONE WITH MCKIE AND GORE BAIL -- GORE VAHE -- SOME ANY WOMEN RUNNING AND THERE ISTHE OTHER THING THAT TO ME WAS MCKIE HAS STRONG SUPPORT FROM RELIABLE VOTERS AND INDEPENDENT VOTERS.

I DIDN'T KNOW YOU POLL THE INDEPENDENT VOTERS.

>> INDEPENDENT VOTERS LIKELY TO VOTE IN A DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY.

PROF. MOAKLEY: THIS IS A GREAT POLL.

[LAUGHTER] THOSE OF THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT STUCK OUT TO ME.

IT IS A CLOSE RACE BUT ESPECIALLY IT IS UP FOR GRABS, PARTICULARLY BETWEEN GORBEO AND MCKIE.

JIM: AS SOMEONE IN THIS CHAIR COUPLE TIMES, WHAT DO YOU DO?

VACATION IN THE PRIMARIES AFTER LABOR DAY BUT IS NOT MUCH TIME.

>> TO ANSWER YUR QUESTION WHY, I MAY BE -- MAY PAY ATTENTION MORE THAN MOST BUT THERE HAS BEEN A LACK OF SUBSTANCE IN THE CAMPAIGN, REALLY ON THE PART OF JUST ABOUT EVERYBODY.

YOU DON'T SEE PEOPLE STANDING UP, CANDIDATES STANDING UP AND SAYING I CALL ON BLOB BLAH FOR WHATEVER.

HERE'S A PROBLEM, HERE IS HOW I SOLVE IT, AND IT HAS TO BE MEDIA ENOUGH SO THAT THE MEDIA WILL COME AND PAY ATTENTION TO.

WE ARE NOT SEEING THAT AND I WONDER, DO WE NOT SEE THE PRESS CONFERENCES BECAUSE THE CANDIDATES JUST DON'T HAVE THESE ISSUES OR ARE THEY AFRAID?

MY SENSE IS MOST CANDIDATES ARE AFRAID TO TAKE A STRONG STAND ON SOMETHING THAT MIGHT DISINFECT SOME GROUP OF VOTERS THEY ARE TRYING TO KEEP INSIDE.

TIM: WE SHOULD REMIND PEOPLE WHO FORGET WHEN KEN RAN FOR GOVERNOR, HE WAS A POLICY GUY.

HE WOULD ISSUE WHITE PAPERS LIKE IT FELT LIKE EVERY WEEKEND.

[LAUGHTER] WHICH WAS ESSENTIALLY ANNOYING.

[LAUGHTER] BUT WE COVER THAT, AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE NOT SEEING HERE.

FINAL NOTE, WE ARE STARTING TO HEAR A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM PEOPLE ASKING HELENA FOLKS TO DROP OUT OF THE WAY -- RACING CLEAR THE WAY FOR GORBEA.

THEY SEEM TO BE PULLING FROM EACH OTHER.

NOW I'VE HEARD NOTHING OF HELENA FOLKS DROPPING OUT.

IF YOU TALK TO THEIR PEOPLE THEY SEE A VICTORY BECAUSE OF THE 21 FOLKS.

KEN: CAN I SAY IT IS OUTRAGEOUS TO ASK A CANDIDATE WHO HAS PUT THEM SELVES OUT THERE AND ENGAGED IN A CAMPAIGN, RUNNING A CAMPAIGN AS WELL AS THEY CAN, AND ASK HIM TO DROP OUT, PARTICULARLY WHEN I DO NOT THINK FOLKS AND GORBEA OCCUPY THE SAME SPACE.

IDEOLOGICALLY, THEY ARE DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER AND SO TO DROP OUT BECAUSE OF GENDER, THAT IS NOT A GOOD REASON TO DROP OUT.

PROF. MOAKLEY: I REALLY THINK WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS YOU WILL SEE NEGATIVE ADS -- YOU WILL SEE NEGATIVE ADS.

WHEN I LOOK AT THE DATE OF FIRST, I WAS LIKE, WOW, EVERYBODY IS HAPPY.

THERE IS NOT A LOT OF PUSHBACK IN TERMS OF ON FAVORABILITY RATINGS LOW.

THE GOVERNOR IS 23% UNFAVORABLE.

THEY ARE PLAYING IT SAFE AND THEY DON'T NOT WANT TO STEP OUT.

TIM: I THINK MARINE IS RIGHT, WE WILL SEE MORE ATTACK ADS.

BUT THERE IS AN ISSUE GOING NEGATIVE IN A NEGATIVE CANDIDATE RACE.

TIM: IF YOU GO AT GORBEA OR FOLKS GOES AFTER GOVERNOR MCKEE PRESUMED FRONT RUNNER -- JIM: IT LEGITIMIZES HIM AS THE FRONT RUNNER.

TIM: YOU MIGHT HURT MCKIE BUT YOU MIGHT NOT NECESSARILY HELP YOURSELF, YOU COULD BE HELPING THE THIRD CHOICE BECAUSE YOU ARE KNOCKING DOWN THE OTHER PERSON BUT IT DOES NOT NECESSARILY YOU WILL BENEFIT FROM IT IF THAT MAKES SENSE.

JIM: IS THE UNDECIDED APATHETIC -- WHAT YOU READ INTO THAT?

20%, ARE THEY NOT PAYING ATTENTION, DOES NOBODY JAZZ THEM UP?

KEN: I THINK YOU ARE SEEING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE INDICATING WHO THEY WANT TO VOTE FOR, PROBABLY THE MOST PART VOTERS.

FOR THE VOTERS WHO ARE NOT NECESSARILY PARTISAN OR DRIVEN IDEOLOGICALLY, THEY ARE LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WHO CAN PROVE THEY CAN LEAD.

I DO NOT THINK THEY ARE SEEING ANY.

JIM: WE WILL GET TO THE LIEUTENANT SHORTLY, BUT I NOTICED 60% ARE UNDECIDED.

THEY ARE CLAMORING IN THE CHARGERS RACE -- IN THE TREASURERS RACE.

[LAUGHTER] I'VE NEVER SEEN THAT.

TIM: OUR POSTER -- POSTER SAID IT IS A CLOSE RACE BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW.

IT IS 17% AND 18%.

PROF. MOAKLEY: YOU'VE GOTTA LET THAT INFORMATION OUT.

[LAUGHTER] JIM: THERE HAS BEEN AN AVALANCHE THE LAST COUPLE DAYS.

THE OTHER THING THAT -- BEFORE WE FINISH THE GOVERNOR, WE WILL MOVE ON.

WHAT DOES EACH HAVE TO DO IN YOUR MIND AND THE NEXT THREE WEEKS?

WHAT IS THE PATH FOR THE TOP THREE?

KEN: I THINK THEY HAVE TO DO A BETTER JOB DEFINING THEMSELVES.

I THINK THEY HAVE TO BE CLEARER ABOUT THE ISSUES THEY CARE ABOUT AND FOCI -- MOST IMPORTANT LAY, MOST SPECIFICALLY, WHAT THEY WILL DO ABOUT THE TOUGH ISSUES.

WE HAVE PERSISTENT PROBLEMS AND WE ARE NOT SEEING ANYBODY STEP UP TO SAY I GOT THE ANSWER TO IT.

PROF. MOAKLEY: I THINK THEY HAVE TO HOLD ON.

I UNDERSTAND FROM A SORT OF POLITICALLY EFFECTIVE POINT OF VIEW, BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT POLITICS, I THING THEY HAVE TO PLAY VERY CLOSE.

I DO NOT THINK THEY CAN COME OUT AND MAKE BIG STATEMENTS BECAUSE THE RACE IS SO CLOSE AND PARTICULARLY FOR MCKIE, HE HAS A LOT OF STRONG SUPPORT AND I THINK HE HAS TO KEEP COASTING, AND OTHER WAS HE HAS TO DEFEND HIMSELF WHEN IT COMES TO THE NEGATIVE ADS COMING OUT AND THAT MAY GENERATE SOMETHING BUT IT WILL NOT BE SUBSTANCE TO -- SUBSTANTIVE.

NO ONE IS GOING TO COME UP.

IT IS UNFORTUNATE BUT IT IS TRUE, NO ONE WILL COME UP AND START TALKING IN A FORCEFUL WAY ABOUT BIG ISSUES ABOUT THINGS THAT HAVE TO BE DONE.

TIM: BESIDES HIM BUILDING A TIME MISSING AND CHANGING HOW THEY HAVE HANDLED SOME OF THE CAMPAIGN SO FAR, THE DEBATES WILL BE IMPORTANT.

ONE WAY WITH THE NEGATIVE ATTACK ADS WHICH I AGREE THEY WILL DO TO OFFSET WHAT I SAID EARLIER IS ON STAGE WITH ALL OF THEM TO SEPARATE YOURSELF FROM THE CANDIDATE AND MAKE THOSE I'M ATTACKING YOU AND HERE'S WHY I'M DIFFERENT AND I WILL BE BETTER AT THIS SITUATION, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

JIM: AND YOUR DEBATE IS AFTER LABOR DAY, PEOPLE ARE LOCKED IN.

PERFECT TIMING.

LET'S SEE HOW THEY CAN DO UNDER FIRE AND WITH EACH OTHER.

TIM: THAT'S RIGHT.

JIM: DO YOU WANT TO GIVE A PLUG ON WHEN THAT IS?

TIM: SEPTEMBER 6, CHANNEL 12.

IT IS A WEEK BEFORE THE PRIMARY.

PROF. MOAKLEY: THE MEDIA IS REALLY GOOD -- IT IS GOOD YOU ARE DOING THIS BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY WAY PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THESE CAMPAIGNS.

IT HAS BEEN SUCH A FLAT OR MEH ELECTION.

JIM: DAN RILEY SAID HERE DAN MCCOWAN SAID IT'S, HOW MUCH OF THE CONSULTANTS ARE DRIVING THIS?

LET'S MAKE SURE WE DO NOT HAVE AN UNFORCED ERROR.

LET'S NOT HAVE SOME PRESS CONFERENCE WHERE TIM WHITE OR JIM HUMMEL OR BRIAN CRANDALL WHO WILL SHOW UP AND THAT WILL BE THE HEADLINE.

TIM: I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE CAMPAIGN.

THERE ARE CERTAIN CAMPAIGNS THAT LEAN MORE INTO CONSULTANTS.

WE HAVE SEEN THE FULTON'S -- THE FOLK SPEND A LOT OF MONEY ON CONSULTANTS AND STAFF MEMBERS.

MICKEY IS A DIFFERENT CALCULUS BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE CAMPAIGN AND THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE OR DIE WAS A THE CAMPAIGN IS DRIVING IT AT THIS POINT IN THE SEASON.

I THINK IT DEPENDS WHICH CANDIDATE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

JIM: WHO DO YOU THINK IS DRIVING IT?

KEN: I WOULD GUESS CONSULTANTS ARE PROBABLY DRIVING MOST OF IT, GIVEN HOW THE CAMPAIGNS ARE CONDUCTING THEMSELVES AT THIS POINT.

JIM: THE OTHER HEADLINE, WHICH SHOULD NOT BE A HEADLINE AT ALL, SABINA MATOS AND ALLAN FUNG ARE THE NO-SHOWS, ALMOST AS MUCH THAT THAT WILL BE THE HEADLINE.

SABINA MATOS, IT IS LAUGHABLE, WHAT IS SHE SHOWING UP AT THE BLIND BOWLERS LEAGUE IN BURRILLVILLE TO SHAKE HANDS RATHER THAN GO ON A DEBATE?

WE WILL GET TO ALLAN FUNG IN A MOMENT, WHAT ABOUT THAT?

SHE IS IN THE LEAD BUT -- PROF. MOAKLEY: 23% IS NOT A LOT.

THE THING IS, 51% ARE NOT SURE.

51% ARE NOT SURE.

JIM: AND THEY MIGHT BECOME MORE SURE IF THEY SEE THE DOC.

PROF. MOAKLEY: I APPLAUD DAN MCCOWN.

HE SAID IT WAS COWARDLY.

FOR FUNG, IT IS A DIFFERENT ISUE.

BUT THEY ARE HOLDING THEIR OWN, THEY DON'T WANT TO SAY ANYTHING OR DO ANYTHING AND DON'T WANT TO BE CHALLENGED.

JIM: SABINA MATOS IS A SMART WOMAN, SHE CERTAINLY CAN HOLD HER OWN.

WHAT AM I MISSING?

TIM: AND SHE DID WELL IN OUR DEBATES.

PROF. MOAKLEY: SHE DID OK. TIM: I THINK HOW SHE BENEFITED IN OUR DEBATE, SINCE THE MENTEES WENT AFTER DEBORAH JARROW AND CYNTHIA MATTHEWS TO GO OUT AND WATCH THE SHOW.

SHE HAS DONE ONE DEBATE AND IT IS OURS.

IT IS GRATEFUL SHE DID THAT.

IT IS A MISTAKE SHE IS NOT DOING OTHER DEBATES.

SHE SHOULD BE DOING CHANNEL 10'S .

JIM: I ONE POINT DOES THIS BECOME THE GOVERNOR'S ISSUE.

WHY DOESN'T PEOPLE SAY -- DON'T PEOPLE SAY THIS IS YOUR RUNNING MAY?

PROF. MOAKLEY: THAT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE NOW YOU ARE LOOKING -- HE HAS BEEN VERY -- AS A GOVERNOR HE SUPPORTED HIS LIEUTENANT.

HE HAS TAKEN HER EVERYWHERE AND GIVEN HER THIS EXPOSURE.

NOW I'M WONDERING SHOULD IT BE LIKE I AM NOT RUNNING ON THE SAME TICKET.

BECAUSE I THINK IT WILL BE VERY INTERESTING AND I APPLAUD THE MEDIA BECAUSE THEY WILL GET THE TIME ANYWAY.

IN OTHER WORDS, SHE IS NOT GOING TO BE IN THE CHAIR, IT'LL BE THE EMPTY CHAIR DEBATE.

KEN: IT IS COWARDLY AND I THINK WHAT YOU ARE TELLING THE WORLD AS A CANDIDATE IF YOU SKIP DEBATES AS YOU ARE NOT READY FOR PRIME TIME.

JIM: I REMEMBER WHEN YOU RAN IN 2010, YOU COULD GIVE EACH OTHER'S SPEECH BY THE END.

WE DON'T WANT THAT.

DO YOU MEMBER THAT?

KEN: THERE WERE OVER 40 DEBATES AND FORUMS OVER THE COURSE OF THE 2010 CAMPAIGN.

IT IS WONDERFUL BECAUSE YOU GOT TO BE ABLE TO BE EXPOSED TO A GREAT MANY PEOPLE, YOU ARE CONFRONTED WITH ISSUES THAT YOU DO NOT NORMALLY GET, JUST IN THE BIG DEBATES THAT COME BEFORE.

EVERY SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP IN THE STATE OFFERED OF A DEBATE OR FORUM FORMAT AND THERE WERE ALWAYS AT LEAST FOUR CANDIDATES SHOWING UP AND THAT WAS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.

YOU SHOULD BE READY TO PROVE -- YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SHOW YOU CAN STAND TOE TO TO WITH ANYBODY AND CAN ADDRESS ISSUES, WHATEVER THEY MIGHT BE.

JIM: IF YOU WILL BE THE GOVERNOR.

DID YOU READ ALL OF HIS WHITE PAPERS?

KEN: NEXT QUESTION.

[LAUGHTER] JIM: ALLAN FUNG, HE DID THIS IF YOU REMEMBER FOUR YEARS AGO, LEADING UP TO THE PRIMARY AGAINST GOVERNOR RAIMNDO, HE DID NOT WANT TO DO ANYTHING FOUR YEARS AGO.

NOW, WE FIND OUT HE WENT TO WYOMING WITH KEVIN MCCARTHY.

WE HAVE NOT HAD YOU ON SINCE THE MCCARTHY COMES TO RHODE ISLAND BIG STATE SECRET THING.

WHAT IS HE DOING?

WHO IS ADVISING HIM?

KEN: I DON'T KNOW.

IT IS -- I DON'T HAVE VISIBILITY INTO THE CAMPAIGN.

I THINK IT WAS UNFORTUNATE CERTAINLY FOR THE CAMPAIGN.

I DO KNOW THAT, GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET OUT AND FUND RAISE AND DIFFICULT INSIDE IT WITH A PARTICULAR EVENT LIKE THIS IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE, IT HAS TO MAKE A JUDGMENT CALL AND WHAT THEY WILL DO.

I CAN SEE ON BALANCE IT MADE MORE SENSE TO GO TO WYOMING THAN PARTICIPATE IN DEBATE THAT MIGHT HAVE SMALL SIGNIFICANCE IN THE CONTEXT OF THE RACE OVERALL.

HOWEVER, BECAUSE ALAN SKIPPED DEBATES PREVIOUSLY, I THINK HE IS PAYING A HIGHER PRICE FOR HAVING SKIP TO THIS ONE.

PROF. MOAKLEY: I DO NOT THINK HE IS SKIPPING THIS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY, I THINK IT WAS A QUESTION OF WHERE HE WILL GO.

I THINK THERE WILL BE A BACKLASH.

THE THING ABOUT KEVIN MCCARTHY.

THE OTHER THING YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER IN A PRIMARY, TRUMP IMPROVED HIS STANDING IN LOTTA TOWNS.

HE CARRIED MORE TOWNS IN 2016 AND AROUND BURRILLVILLE AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

THERE ARE STRONG TRUMP SUPPORTERS.

ON BALANCE, IT WAS A CALCULATION.

I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT BUT THE FACT IS THERE MAY HAVE BEEN WORTH HIS WHILE.

TIM: WE WILL SEE.

CD2 TO MAUREEN'S BORN HAS TURNED A LITTLE BIT MORE RED THROUGHOUT TH YEARS.

JIM: THAT'S WHAT THEY DID 10 YEARS AGO.

PROF. MOAKLEY: RIGHT.

JIM: AND MAKING IT BETTER FOR CICILLINE.

WHO WAS PREVIOUSLY CONSIDERED UNTOUCHABLE.

TIM: BUT IT IS STILL BLUE.

WITH ALL OF THE FUNDRAISING ALLAN FUNG HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO WITH THE KEVIN MCCARTHY VISIT AND GOING TO WYOMING -- ALAN FUNG HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO, GOING OUT TO WYOMING, WHAT HE HAS DONE, THE DEMOCRATS GETTING TO THE PRIMARY AND IT IS LOOKING LIKE IT IS SETH MAGAZINER'S TO LOSE.

THEY ARE SHARPENING THEIR KNIVES.

IN SOME WAYS, ALLAN FUNG -- ALAN FUNG IS CREATING THE ATTACK AS.

THERE WILL BE SPOTS IN BURRILLVILLE AND WHERE THAT IS GOING TO HELP HIM AND THAT IS GOOD NEWS, BUT THERE WILL BE SPOTS WHERE THAT IS GOING TO HURT HIM.

WE WILL SEE IF THAT WAS THE RIGHT MOVE OR NOT.

PROF. MOAKLEY: I THINK IT IS A TOUGH CALL IN THE SENSE THAT HE HAS A BASE IN CRANSTON AND IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE TOWNS, AND THIS IS A PRIMARY.

NOT THE GENERAL ELECTION -- GENERAL ELECTION.

HE DIDN'T HAVE A PRIMARY.

TIM: AND HE WOULD HAVE TO SPEND MONEY.

PROF. MOAKLEY: BUT, YOU KNOW, MAGAZINER IS A GOOD CAMPAIGNER BUT IT IS GOING TO BE A RACE.

TIM: I AGREE.

DEMOCRATS ARE NERVOUS ABOUT THIS.

BOTH LOCALLY AND NATIONALLY.

ALLAN FUNG IS A HOUSEHOLD NAME AND HE HAS RUN FOR OFFICE MANY TIMES.

HE WAS A POPULAR MAYOR IN CRANSTON WHICH IS IN CD2, SO HE WILL TRY TO GET OUT THE VOTE -- THE VOTE IN CRANSTON.

THEY ARE HAPPY SEEING HIM STANDING TO KEVIN MCCARTHY -- STANDING NEXT TO KEVIN MCCARTHY.

JIM: THE TEAM HAS BEEN DOING A GREAT JOB ON DIGGING INTO FINANCES.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE ITSELF, FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT, LOOKING THROUGH THE LENS, DOES THIS HAVE BACKSPLASH LEADING INTO ELECTION?

THE POLL SHOWED THERE'S NOT A LOT OF PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR THE PUBLIC SUBSIDY.

KEN: IF THE OTHER CANDIDATES DECIDE TO BEAT HIM WITH IT, YES.

HE WILL PAY THE PRICE WITH IT.

HE DESERVES TO BECAUSE HE HAS ESSENTIALLY CRAZILY IN MY OPINION STATED, EVEN THOUGH THE DATA SHOWS IT IS NOT GOING TO PAY FOR ITSELF AND EVERYTHING, THAT IS NOT MATTER.

WHAT MATTERS IS THAT IT IS IMPORTANT AND WE HAVE TO GET IT DONE.

IT IS NOT OFTEN YOU SEE AN ELECTED OFFICIAL LET ALONE A GOVERNOR INDICATES THAT HE IS OVERALL FINANCES OF A PARTICULAR PROJECT AND INSTEAD CALL IT ESSENTIALLY A CRITICAL STATEWIDE PROJECT.

I DO NOT BUY THAT BECAUSE IT IS A SOCCER STADIUM.

IT IS A LOCAL ISSUE TO NANTUCKET BUT HOW DOES THAT SOCCER STADIUM BENEFIT ANYBODY OUTSIDE OF MAYBE THE CORE URBAN AREA?

IT DOES NOT.

I AM PUZZLED BY A.

THE COST IS HUGE, THE PAYOFF IS LIKELY NOT THERE, AND GOVERNOR MCKEE HAS SAID I DON'T CARE, WE ARE DOING IT.

I THINK HE PUT HIMSELF AT RISK FOR DOING THAT.

PROF. MOAKLEY: I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE SUBSTANCE OF THE THING BUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE POLITICS, ONE OF THE THINGS I'M STRUCK BY IS FIRST OF ALL, THE DIFFERENCE, 9%, IN OPPOSED OR NOT OPPOSED.

THAT IS NOT A LOT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WHEN YOU SAY PUBLIC FINANCING, LIKE PEOPLE AUTOMATICALLY SAY NO GO.

I WAS STRUCK BY THAT.

THE OTHER THING I WAS STRUCK BY IS HE IS NOT RUNNING AWAY FROM IN OTHER WORDS, PEOPLE CAME UP TO HIM AND HE PUSHES BACK AND MAKES THIS ARGUMENT I'M TALKING ABOUT THE POLITICS, NOT THE THING.

HE IS STANDING UP TO IT.

HE WILL GET HIT WITH AS.

JIM: AND MATT BROWN WENT AFTER HIM AND TRY TO HAMMER HIM AND HE RUSHED HIM OFF.

PROF. MOAKLEY: BUT HE ANSWERED.

HE DID NOT DOCK OR THAT KIND OF THING.

-- DUCK FOR THAT KIND OF THING.

KEN: TIM: HE CANNOT -- TIM: HE CANNOT DUCK.

HE CAST THE TIE-BREAKING VOTE SO IT IS HARD TO DUCK WHEN THERE IS A BINARY CHOICE HE MADE AND WENT FOR IT.

MAUREEN IS RIGHT, 9% OF THE CHANNEL 12 ROGER WILLIAMS POLLS IN A HUGE GAP FROM SUPPORT AND OPPOSED BUT THAT'S TELLING ME THE 19% ARE NOT SURE AND THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY THE OTHER CAMP HAS TO MOVE THE NEEDLE ON THAT.

TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, THEY ARE ALREADY ATTACKING GOVERNOR MCKEE ON THAT, MAYBE NOT ON PAID TV, I THING THAT IS AROUND THE CORNER, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU SEE THEM PULL LIKE THIS.

JIM: THOSE ADS HAVE TO BE MADE NOW TO GET HIM OUT.

TIM: THIS IS TRUE.

JIM: YOU HAVE TO WRITE AND PRODUCE -- TRUE.

YOU HAVE TO WRITE AND PRODUCE THEM QUICKLY.

I THINK YOU WILL HEAR IN THE DEBATES THAT THIS WILL BE A BIG POINT TO COME AFTER.

PROF. MOAKLEY: IT REALLY HELPS GORBEA.

SINCE THEY ARE SO CLOSE, ANY EDGE LIKE, THAT REALLY TAKES AHEAD, THAT IS GOOD NEWS FOR HER.

JIM: THE OTHER THING YOU WANTED TO TALK ABOUT WAS ON THE MIN INSURANCE.

TIM HAS DONE GREAT REPORTING ON THIS.

WE SET THE TABLE?

TIM: I'M DYING FOR A CANDIDATE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

THE RHODE ISLAND DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND TRADING PUMPED OUT MANY HUDREDS OF MILLIONS PROBABLY OVER $1 BILLION ABUNDANT LIMIT INSURANCE CLAIMS DURING COVID.

I ASKED THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR AND TRAINING HOW -- SO YOU PAY FOR THAT TWO WAYS, WITH FEDERAL FUNDS WHICH I DO NOT CARE ABOUT SO MUCH, AND YOU ALSO PAY FOR IT WITH WHAT THEY CALL THE RHODE ISLAND UNEMPLOYMENT TRUST FUND, FUNDED BY A PAYROLL TAX.

THE TRUST FUND WAS DRAINED OF $270 MILLION DRINK I WOULD -- DURING COVID.

RHODE ISLAND BUSINESSES ARE ON THE HOOK TO REPAY 270 MILLION DOLLARS SPENT PAYING OUT ON EMPLOYMENT BENEFITS BECAUSE OF COVID.

THE STATE PUT $100 MILLION BACK IN AND DI THAT IN THE LAST BUDGET.

RHODE ISLAND BUSINESSES ARE ON THE BUDGET FOR 170 MILLION DOLLARS.

OUT OF EVERY BUSINESS OWNER'S POCKET.

THE PROBLEM IS THE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE SYSTEM ACROSS THE RHODE ISLAND BOARD -- ACROSS-THE-BOARD AND RHODE ISLAND ADMITS THERE WAS $100 MILLION STOLEN AND LIKELY HALF ANOTHER BILLION DOLLARS STOLEN ON TOP OF THAT.

WHY SHOULD RHODE ISLAND BUSINESSES BE ON THE HOOK TO PAY $170 MILLION THAT THEY HAD NO CONTROL OVER AND THAT PROBABLY FOR THE MOST PART THE STATE LET FLY OUT OF THESE FUNDS WITHOUT THE RIGHT CONTROLS IN PLACE?

JIM: ANY HOPE OF GETTING THAT BACK?

KEN: NO.

WE HAVE SEEN THE U.S.

ATTORNEYS -- TIM: NO.

WE HAVE SEEN THE U.S. ATTORNY'S OFFICE.

THIS IS LOW HANGING FRUIT TO GO AFTER.

EVEN IF YOU CAN'T DO SOMETHING FROM A POLICY PERSPECTIVE, IT IS SOMETHING THEY CAN HANG THEIR HAT ON FROM THE BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE.

A LOT OF THE BAD GUYS ARE PROBABLY OVERSEAS AND IT WILL BE DIFFICULT.

THE STATE LOWERED ITS GUARD RAILS TO GET MONEY OUT QUICKLY TO PEOPLE WHO NEEDED IT.

THE HEAD OF THE DLT ADMITTED THAT BUT NOW IT IS LOOKING LIKE THE GUARDRAILS WERE LOWERED.

JIM: SO ALL OF US GOT THE FALSE CLAIM, THEY SENT ME A LETTER WITH MY FULL SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER ON IT.

AND NOT JUST THE LAST FOUR DIGITS.

YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE THEY DID?

SOMEBODY STUFFED THE ENVELOPE WITH ANOTHER ONE IN MY ENVELOPE, IT HAD HER FULL SOCIAL SECURITY.

SO THE DLT SAID WE NEED TO UPGRADE OUR COMPUTERS.

TIM: THEY DID THAT.

THEY CHANGED THEIR SYSTEM BUT AFTER THE FRONT HAD TAKEN PLACE.

KEN IS RIGHT, IT IS THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH FRAUD TOOK PLACE.

IT IS ASTOUNDING.

PROF. MOAKLEY: MY THOUGHT ON THAT IS I UNDERSTAND THERE WAS THIS RUSH TO GET THE MONEY OUT.

PARTICULARLY SINCE THERE WAS A DELAY FOR HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES EARLIER AND THEY WERE EXCORIATED FOR THAT.

AS SOON AS THEY SAID THEY WERE DOING THIS, I WAS LIKE THERE IS GOING TO BE FRAUD.

I HAD NO IDEA.

JIM: LAST 30 SECONDS.

KEN: WHAT THE SPEAKER AND SENATE PRESIDENT RIDGE AREA AND GOVERNOR MCKEE SHOULD DO IS TAKE FEDERAL FUNDS TO REPAY THE $170 MILLION.

THAT SHOULD NOT BE ON THE BACKS OF RHODE ISLAND BUSINESSES TO REPAY.

JIM: OUTRAGE AND KUDO AND TRY TO KEEP IT SHORT.

PROF. MOAKLEY: KUDO.

ONE KUDO IS ELECTRIC BUSES NOW.

THEY HAVE FINALLY BEEN PUT IN PLACE.

IT IS A BIG DEAL.

WE NEED TO GET MORE MASS TRANSIT AND THIS IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

ONE OTHER QUICK KUDO, A KUDO FOR MY FELLOW PANELIST HERE AND ALL OF THE WORK HE HAS DONE ON SHORE AXIS AND RIGHTS-OF-WAY.

IT IS TERRIFIC AND I HOPE YOU KEEP DOING IT.

IT IS A REAL SERVICE.

JIM: I WOULD ECHO THAT.

TIM: MORE AND MORE POLICE DEPARTMENT'S ARE GETTING BODY ONE CAMERAS AND WHAT WE ARE LEARNING IN THE NEWS WORLD IS AS WE REQUEST THE VIDEO, POLICE DEPARTMENT ARE CHARGING EXORBITANT USE TO OBTAIN THE BODY WORN CAMERAS.

WE HAVE SEEN AGENCIES USE HIGH RETRIEVAL AND RESEARCH FEES AS A CHILLING EFFECT OF GETTING THE INFORMATION.

WE PAY FOR THE TAX -- TAXPAYERS PAY FOR THE BODY WORN CAMERAS, TAXPAYERS PAY THE SALARIES OF THE PEOPLE THAT WEAR THEM, AND TAXPAYERS PAY FOR THE SALARIES OF THE PEOPLE THAT RETRIEVE AND REDACT, THE PRIMARY COST.

DO NOT CHARGE US AGAIN FOR THEM.

JIM: WASN'T THERE ALSO AN ISSUE AND WE TALKED ABOUT WHEN PROVIDENCE GOT THEM ABOUT RELEASING AND THE EXTENT THEY WOULD RELEASE IT IN A TIMELY FASHION AND ALL OF THAT?

IS THAT GETTING WORKED OUT DEPARTMENT BY DEPARTMENT?

TIM: NO.

THAT IS THE STATE LEVEL IN THE AG OFFICE IS PROMULGATING.

THERE'S NO QUESTION POLICE BODY WORN CAMERA VIDEO IS A PUBLIC RECORD AND IT SHOULD BE RELEASED AS SUCH.

THE QUESTION IS, IS SOMETHING CONSIDERED UNDER INVESTIGTION, ALL OF THAT IS HAMMERED OUT NOW AND I'LL SEE.

JIM: YOU GET A MINUTE AND A HALF.

YOUR COLLEAGUES WERE SHORT.

DON'T ABUSE IT.

KEN: ON THE WP ARO MAYORAL DEBATE THIS PAST WEEK, I WAS SURPRISED TO HERE EVERY CANDIDATE SUPPORT THE IDEA OF A PENSION OBLIGATION FUND FOR THE CITY.

PENSION OBLIGATION BOND TO BRIEFLY BRING EVERYONE UP TO SPEED, YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY BORROWING MONEY TO INVEST IN THE STOCK MARKET TO FILL THE GAPING HOLE THAT IS THE LIABILITIES THAT PROVIDENCE HAS AN THEIR PENSION SYSTEM.

EVERY SINGLE MAYORAL CANDIDATE SAYS THE PENSION OBLIGATION BOND WAS AN IMPORTANT TOOL FOR THEM TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM AND MOST FINANCIAL EXPERTS WILL TELL YOU IT IS A RISKY MANEUVER AND SHOULD NOT DO IT, ESPECIALLY NOW THAT THE MONEY IS SO SPENCER TO BORROW.

TIM: I WONDER IF THE NEXT MAYOR IS ACTUALLY EVEN GOING TO BORROW IT.

JIM: BECAUSE THE RATES ARE SO HIGH.

TIM: RIGHT.

THERE IS A CEILING AT 4.9% THE CITY CANNOT BORROW.

JIM: AND SPRINGFIELD PULLED BACK ON IT.

RIGHT?

TIM: DID THEY?

AS KEN SAID, THE INTEREST RATES ARE RISING, BECAUSE FEDS ARE RAISING INTEREST RATES.

I'M CURIOUS TO SEE IF THEY WOULD PULL THE TRIGGER.

PROF. MOAKLEY: YOU ARE GREAT TO POINT IT OUT.

KEN: WHO IS BROADCASTING THE MESSAGE I AM FINANCIALLY CAREFUL?

NONE OF THEM ARE DOING THAT.

THEY THROW CAUTION TO THE WIND AND SAYING I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE HALF $1 BILLION THAT I COULD TAKE TO THE STOCK MARKET CASINO.

JIM: YOU EVEN GAVE TIM A LITTLE TIME THAT IS A NICE COOPERATIVE.

WE ARE HEADING INTO THE HOME STRETCH, THE PRIMARY DAY.

A LOT WILL HAPPEN IN THE NEXT WEEK.

WE HOPE YOU COME BACK AND JOIN US NEXT WEEK.

TIM, MAUREEN, CAN, ALWAYS GREAT HALF-HOUR.

TIM, WE LOOK FORWARD TO THAT DEBATE.

TIM IS GOING TO GO HOME AND GET THOSE QUESTIONS.

COME BACK NEXT WEEK AS A LIVELY EXPERIMENT CONTINUES.

[CLOSED CAPTIONING HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY CARDI'S FURNITURE AND MATTRESSES] [CAPTIONING PREFORMED BY THE NATIONAL CAPTIONING INSTITUTE, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CAPTION CONTENT AND ACCURACY.

VISIT NCICAP.ORG] >> A LIVELY EXPERIMENT IS GENEROUSLY UNDERWRITTEN BY -- >> I AM JOHN HAYES AND WHITE JUNIOR.