- [Jim] This week on "A Lively Experiment," there's a sharp increase in the number of uncontested races for general assembly seats this fall.

And those who favor holding a Constitutional Convention get their turn to make a pitch.

- [Announcer] "A Lively Experiment" is generously underwritten by.

- Hi, I'm John Hazen White Jr. For over 30 years, "A Lively Experiment" has provided insight and analysis of the political issues that face Rhode Islanders.

I'm a proud supporter of this great program and Rhode Island PBS.

- Joining us on the panel, Billy Hunt, Chairman of the Libertarian Party of Rhode Island.

Political contributor and former Deputy Secretary of State, Ray Rickman, and Republican strategist Lisa Pelosi.

Welcome into this week's "Lively," I'm Jim Hummel.

The numbers are in and only 18 candidates for general assembly seats.

All Democrats will face primary races next month.

Less than half of the contested races we had just two years ago.

And more than half of the legislative races are uncontested this year up from 20% two years ago.

So what is going on?

I'm sure we will get three different answers from three different people here.

Let me begin with a guy who is responsible for recruiting candidates this year.

What has this cycle been like for you?

- This cycle hasn't been great.

I think, in general, I think all parties have had struggled as represented by the few number of people that are actually running for office, recruiting candidates.

And unfortunately, a falling tide lowers all ships.

In this scenario, the libertarian party has had struggles.

Even up at our national convention back in May our presidential nominee didn't get elected until the seventh ballot and barely beat out "None Of The Above."

So we don't really have a strong top of the ticket.

And that is what we rely on to generate enthusiasm in the party and to drive volunteers.

But, this is not a issue that's specific to political parties.

We were talking in the green room about all civic organizations seem to be having an issue with getting volunteers and funding after the pandemic.

And you know, rotary clubs, the Warren-Barrington Rotary Club is saying that they're gonna be closing pretty soon.

I think it's something that this postmodern thinking has really eroded the trust in institutions and therefore you're seeing the people aren't actually volunteering their time.

And running a campaign is very much like running and being involved in one of these non-profit civic organizations.

You need to kind of have somebody to do the nuts and bolts, plan the events, organize volunteers, that type of thing.

And we're really not seeing that in general.

And so maybe the social construct, everybody's talking about society and how it's just not a real thing, really did have some meaning in the end.

- Lisa.

- The running is hard.

"It's not easy to run a campaign," as you just said.

And then, running as a Republican in Rhode Island is almost impossible.

There are certain pocket districts maybe that Republicans can do well.

But the majority of state we've seen, I know in my hometown of East Greenwich, the last time all the Dems won and we really had some good Republican candidates.

So Republicans really have to think twice, "Do we really wanna go through all this work?"

- So Lisa, is it Libertarians, Republicans, "None Of The Above," are you all vying for the same pool?

It is tough 'cause it's a personal investment.

- Yeah, and you gotta understand, why do people wanna run to begin with?

Usually there's an issue that motivates them that says, "I wanna go and I wanna make a difference at the State House."

So I don't know if we have people who have that feeling, those passionate feelings about issues right now.

And it could very well be that they're just as complacent with the people who are in office and saying, "Oh, I don't wanna contest this race."

- [Jim] Ray?

- So, I think two things are going on.

"We're bowling alone," as Robert Putnam would say.

Block clubs are collapsing, everything's collapsing in society.

So that's your first problem, we're not as civic.

Secondly, I think politics really is getting a bad name.

And some of it has nothing to do with state rep, state senator, I think, on the national level we've got these problems.

We were talking in the green room about, you know, I used to like Republicans.

They were okay people and they were in favor of the environment and they thought, "You go in your bedroom, that was your own business."

Now I don't, so if I were a Republican, I wouldn't be running as a Republican.

I don't know what I'd be running as.

I think there's a lot of that going on.

You don't wanna get affiliated with these parties, you really don't.

- This year, it's an interesting strategy.

I remember two years ago when Sue Cienki was the Chairman, there were a lotta people running.

And the question was, what will that turn into?

Wins down the line.

And she kinda poised it as, "This is the beginning of a process and we're gonna go a number of years."

This year, the number of candidates have gone back.

And I saw Joe Powers quoted as saying, "We're gonna try to be strategic in our resources."

So, you know, it's a tough call.

Do you cast a wide net or do you concentrate on a couple of races?

And some republicans are leaving the leg seat.

- They always do though, be careful with that.

15 to 20% of reps and senators quit every two years.

They do that, so that's normal.

- But when you have 12% Republicans, it's hard to lose anybody as an incumbent.

But what about that large versus a targeted?

- Right.

And you gotta remember, most people don't win the first time either.

So if you're doing it, you have to have almost like a four year commitment.

- [Jim] Just ask Bruce Sundlun.

- Yeah, right.

Wasn't it three with him?

- [Jim] Yeah, third was the charm.

- So, you need to kind of establish yourself, lose and then pick yourself up and try to do the second time around.

And how many people really wanna dedicate four years of their time to run for an office that they might not win in the end?

- What was the conversation that you had with your people?

- Well, I was just gonna point out too that, as somebody who has coming second place four times in a row, it doesn't always happen on the second time either as well.

(all laughing) I think one of the worst things that happened to Rhode Island politics in recent years is Joe Biden getting elected.

Because, let's face it, when Trump was elected back in 2016 that was the start of the progressive insurgency.

That was the political co-op.

You saw a lot of involvement that happened and it was a lot similar to the reaction to Barack Obama in 2008 with the Tea Party movement and everything like that.

And I think the net effect of these political extreme, infiltrating our politics is a very polarized political climate.

And a lotta people don't want to get involved in politics because the average person doesn't even wanna put their hat in the ring and deal with the nonsense of the extreme ends of the political party.

And again, this is part of the reason that I'm fighting and with the River PAC and trying to institute less legislation to lower the barriers to get political parties recognized in the state of Rhode Island so that there's more options for people.

So they don't have to commit to one of the extremes of the party.

And hopefully, we can get a little bit more active involvement with people, good candidates that wanna run for office, specifically lower office, and have that support to support them to run so they can win their first time.

- [Jim] What about you?

- So you thought you saw me throw my head back.

- [Jim] I did, I saw a little bit of a - Someone calling President Obama - a little vein - up here in your head that was throbbing.

- an extremist.

I've only seen one extremist on the presidential level in the last 40 years, and that's Trump.

Mr. Bush, Mr. Bush and all the Democrats are just okay people, whether you agree with 'em or not, no extremists.

- I was referencing the Tea Party and the reaction to Obama more than Obama's policies in general.

But there's no denying that the political climate has gone, been very polarized since his election in 2008.

That's no denying that fact at all.

- What is it gonna take to build a bench though in the Republican party?

Is it just not the time or place now?

Do we have to wait for more cycles or do you, I mean, I know you're rooting for him, but it's a tough slot?

- We've been talking about this for decades.

It's been going on for a long time.

And by building the bench, you do the school committees, you do the town councils, you start at the very local levels.

And again, going back to my hometown of East Greenwich, that's what we've been trying to do.

And we got totally wiped out.

It used to be more of a balanced Republican Democratic town.

Now it's all Democrat.

So even trying to build a bench in a town like each Greenwich has been impossible.

- But look at Cranston, Cranston's Republican, then it's Democratic, then it's whatever.

And you see that in three or four towns.

See, I don't buy this, I think it's the candidate.

Fred Lippitt was the Republican state rep in an area registered 60% Democratic.

- Right, on the side East Side.

- Hardworking, wonderful human being, and that's what I think it takes.

- But the Republican party was a lot different back then?

- It was, I wasn't bothered by it.

- I mean, don't you think some of the Republicans who are running now.

Now, if you're in the Western part of the state, it really is kind of a red blue thing.

And we saw that during the Allan Fung race.

But don't you think that because of what's going on nationally, that hampers some people who wanna run as Republicans here?

- So let me build off of what you said, Billy.

I think Donald Trump is the worst thing that happened to the Republican party in Rhode Island.

Because, automatically, anyone who's a Republican gets defined by Donald Trump.

Now, I come from the era of John Chafee, Lincoln Almond, you know, different, more moderate Republicans, that's gone to the wayside now.

You run as a Republican you're already - Labeled.

- labeled as you're Donald Trump or you're trying to explain why you're not.

- Right.

Final question that I'd asked before.

What has been the response when you've approached people this year?

What have they said?

- There's a lot of apathy in general, in terms of getting volunteers to having a pool of candidates.

One of the worst things a party can do besides putting up no candidates is putting up bad candidates and finding people who really aren't delivering the right message, who aren't gonna really have an effective campaign.

I always talk about three things that a political party needs to do is grow membership, raise money, and get people elected.

And if the candidates that you're putting up aren't achieving any of those goals, you're just kind of wasting your time at that point.

- Last week we talked a lot about a Constitutional Convention you will all be deciding on the November ballot.

Last week organized groups came out to argue against it.

This week there's a legislative commission hearing.

They're supposed to have a report due on September 1st about what's gonna lead up to November.

It's interesting, the proponents came out, Steve Frias, who we know well, articulated why we should have a Constitutional Convention, where are you on this?

- I think we should.

Let it get to the voters and let the voters decide.

I mean, there are a few stop gaps along the way to stop an issue from going forward if the majority of people don't want it.

But let's bring it to the people.

We haven't had a Constitutional Convention since 1986.

So it's like a generation has gone by or decades have gone by since we've done it.

And I think Steve makes a great point that there's an issue like Inspector General.

We're not gonna get that through the general assembly, but if the majority of voters want it, let's put it to the voters and let's see if they want it to be put into place.

- What do you think?

- I'm 100% in favor.

I just love going out to the public and we haven't been out to the public in 30 plus years.

Eh, I don't think any harm will be done and maybe we'll get something.

The general assembly can't even pass a bottle bill.

I can tell you 10 things I'd like to see, which they will not do.

So, finally, maybe we don't get it, but we have a fabulous public conversation.

Fabulous.

- Ultimate ratification of any changes proposed in the Constitutional Convention will need to be ratified by the voters in the first place.

The red herring that the abortion proposal that was put up in 1986, again, it was voted down by the voters.

So, any special interests that get involved in the Constitutional Convention are only going to be affecting what topics are brought up, not necessarily what the outcomes are and what the voters are gonna vote on.

And it's funny to me and a little disingenuous that a lot of the people who are opposed to the Constitutional Convention are not interested in getting special interests out of Rhode Island politics.

They just don't want outside special interests.

They're very in much in favor of having ballot question advocacy groups and independent campaign expenditures, which is very difficult to get outside state funding to advocate for or against having a Constitutional Convention.

But actually having an open process where the freedom of marketplace of ideas can actually live, they're very much opposed to.

And I don't think that's right for the average everyday voter.

- What are some of the things you'd like to see if it was brought up?

Certain people have talked about line item veto, and Steve talked about enshrining the right to education for students, what would you like?

- And by the way, I'm a kid advocate, and that's what I'm in favor of.

A lot of the stuff, the system, the structure of government such.

Do you know, I wanted to sue the Providence Public School System, 24,000 kids being given a lousy education?

That's a good word.

- [Jim] For generations.

- Yes.

And I'm told, Steve Brown tells me I can't, only the legislature can do anything, and that's wrong.

There are many things like that with 44,000 laws.

We should get rid of half of 'em, but they can't deal with that.

And then the things we do need.

The legislature, I think they're ill-equipped to deal with them.

But also, the Supreme Court almost always defers to the legislature and says, "Okay, whatever you want."

So this is an avenue.

I don't think a lot's gonna come out of it.

I would want the public discussion.

- Well, it's gonna be interesting to see the money that's gonna come out from people lobbying, reject one, or whatever the question's gonna be.

- That's not right.

- But also too, what's going to be in the handbook for voters too?

So, if I'm right, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's the Secretary of State that approves the wording that's in the book.

- Oh, yes.

Absolutely.

- So it's gonna be interesting how this issue gets presented to the voters for them to evaluate and vote in November.

- Oh, you can trust the Secretary of State.

(Jim laughing) No, I'm serious on that.

- No, but having been in that office, will it come out of what that legislative recommendation is and then he does the wording or how does that work?

- So, you know, I'm former Deputy Secretary of State and I did the wording a couple times.

It's a hard process, but you've gotta be fair, you know, there are 80 people looking at you.

And you can't say, "She has light blonde hair."

Okay.

You don't.

So, I don't think we have to worry.

- [Jim] What are some of the things you'd like to see if it come up?

- Voter initiative.

I mean, term limits, going ahead and getting constitutional about tolling issues, getting some clarification and some more strong wording around the APRA requests and everything like that.

There's tons of things that I am in favor of.

There's things that have been mentioned that I'm not in favor of.

But again, I think that the process should be open and we should have the discussion.

We shouldn't be afraid of the people, and giving them access to their government as the founders intended.

- Would you let me say, there are many things that we think are important that are not important.

My favorite is term limits.

You don't need any term limits.

15% of 'em quit every two years.

You've got your term limits.

- Yeah, but it's interesting that, but the term limits went in for the general officers that was part of the '94 reform.

- The general assembly did that to them.

- Right.

- To get them out so that they can be governor too.

- But should state representatives and senators, should they have four year terms, two year terms?

- I don't think there should be term limits.

I always go back to the voters are the best decider when it comes to that.

- Remember, I keep putting on real hats here.

I was a state rep and it takes you six years to learn what's going on.

- [Jim] And then you're out.

- And the structure of government.

And also getting the bureaucrats to pay attention to you and having a relationship with the governor, and trying to beat the Speaker up, which, I was successful in doing.

It's nothing you can do successfully in two, four, even six years.

So I think we should be careful.

And if the rep or senator is bad, the public does get rid of them, I've watched it.

- That's right.

- We just spent the first segment of the show talking about how difficult it is to get people to run for office.

And a lot of that has to do with a bunch of people, I understand a number of them retire every year, but they're entrenched in their office and they're not going anywhere.

And people feel like it's not worth putting in the effort to try to unseat somebody who has that much political power.

At least if you had term limits, that individual may move to a different seat, choose to retire earlier and churn up the system and get more people involved and active in politics.

- I hope you don't mind me being respectfully disagreeable.

- No, of course.

- I'm aware of three Speakers of the House defeated recently, the most powerful people there.

So, I don't buy it.

The public- - [Jim] You mean in their local races?

- In their local.

- Wait, yeah, that's what we're talking about.

You don't have to term limit anybody and then there are two or three people who left because they took a poll.

No.

- The exception doesn't define the rule.

- That's not the exception.

- Look at how many people are running in uncontested races this year.

And I, as a libertarian, I'm constantly surrounded by ideas I don't agree with.

So keep 'em coming.

(all laughing) - We should have been recording in the green room.

You hear all this green room reference, we peaked too early, all the stuff going on.

But, the Attorney General had his annual summit out at Roger Williams.

Had a lotta local, and city, and town officials talking about the Access to Public Records Act.

This is something that's near and dear to my heart as a reporter, but it should be to you too, because there are a lot of people who just want to get information from their government and over the last five or 10 years it's been very difficult to do that.

So I applaud Peter Neronha saying, "Look, get with the program or we're gonna bring the hammer down."

- That's his job.

The Attorney General is supposed to put people in jail, and worry about consumer, and it got about seven jobs over there, and this is one of 'em.

Because there is nothing more sacred, more useful than public information.

And half the time the town or city is just being lazy and they hope you'll go away.

I ask for information on the nuclear facility all the time, and eight weeks later they say, "What did you ask for?"

And you have to stay at it and it shouldn't be.

And I commend him, I really do.

- Yeah, his hesitation was, he doesn't want to be fining municipalities that ultimately, who's gonna pay that bill?

The taxpayers.

But he said, "The message needs to go out."

- Yeah, I wanna have a better understanding of the scope of it.

Are we talking about all 39 cities and towns or are there certain ones that have been more egregious than others?

And when it comes to state agencies.

And then the number of complaints that have grown over the number of years, does that mean the number of requests have gone up that amount over the years?

So, I'd like to have a better understanding of the scope.

- Well, Peter Neronha is saying that whenever you make, and I know this firsthand, when you make a request it immediately becomes an APRA.

So we have 10 days, we can make it 20 days if we wanna bust your chops, which they do regularly with me, no offense taken.

But it's just part of doing the job.

Where he said, "It should be presumed that all records are public unless there's something out way out here, so you should turn that over immediately."

"It doesn't have to go through a process with a lawyer 'cause a lotta lawyers are making a lotta money."

- Yeah, and that's the thing too, is that you go in and you ask a simple request from your town hall or from the finance director and you're hit with, "Well, you have to file an APRA request."

And it's not until, as Ray mentioned, "It's not until very much at the end of the period that they have the window of time that you get the response."

And as Jim pointed out, there's very often not complete information.

And I'm going through something that's very recently with my town as well too.

And it's frustrating that, besides personnel information, date of birth, social security numbers, stuff like that, I think most government documents should be accessible in publicly accessible, searchable databases.

I mean that's, if it's on the record, why not?

- Yeah, put it online.

- It'd save a lot of time and energy.

- Because of my age, I've got my nerve up, and I just asked the FBI for my records, all the way back to when I was a 16-year-old kid.

First time I had an encounter with them, school walkout.

And three days after we asked for it, they said, "Okay."

And three days later they told us the rules, and three days later they told me to pay $63.

Which is quick.

- Quick work.

- Yeah.

And I just said, "Ooh, the FBI, they're very good."

That's how life should be.

- Exactly.

- All right, the show's moving quickly.

Presidential politics this week, Vice President Kamala Harris is about to name her vice presidential pick.

We are not sure, we're taping on a Friday morning.

So by the time you watch this, that could very well be decided.

The big news this week was Donald Trump.

We'll start with you Ray, at the National Association for Black Journalists.

Just, you know, beyond the pale, I'm not sure whether you should be surprised anymore, but it was surprising even for me, some of what he said, maybe not for you?

- No, he says it all the time.

He's been saying it for 10 plus years and we forget that Donald Trump, things he did when he was a private businessman in New York.

So this is time number 20.

And it's so insulting.

Are you aware there are 34 million people who are biracial in this country and half of them are Korean and whatever else they are.

And so, he's ignorant, insulting, awful.

And she has a right to be more than one being.

Seriously.

- [Jim] Indian - And black.

- and black.

- And she has been black forever.

She went to Howard, she's in a black sorority, she's got, the man's an idiot.

But worse than that, every other week they're insulting 64 million women without children, half of whom can't have a child.

They're just awful, awful human beings.

It's frightening.

- Doesn't seem like a winning strategy to bring in the undecided, right?

- I was surprised, one, that he was invited, and two, that he accepted.

And then to watch the exchange that happened, it was just painful to watch.

- [Jim] But he's talking to his base.

- Okay.

- Right.

That's what I'm saying.

Not a winning strategy, talking to your base, but not bringing, look, we've all been in politics, you know, it's the people who may vote for the other guy that you wanna bring in, or woman.

- You need 50% of the voters.

And I keep saying, "Every week they get another 10, 20, 60 million people they're insulting."

What are they doing?

- [Jim] You're running out of people to insult.

- Yeah, I mean, it's odd, I'm not a fan of Trump and I am not a fan of his way of approaching things.

But I'm also really not gonna try to wade into judging the intersectional olympics over here when the Democrats seem to, one on the one hand, use all of these intersectional traits that they have that are really irrelevant to their merit autocracies and how they actually do the job, and use that as a reason and as a badge of honor.

Yet, when somebody comes across and mentions something like a DEI hire or something like that, they take an offense.

And as a pejorative, and again, the logic doesn't really follow 100% in my estimation.

Because, if their logic, the diversity is bringing positives to the workplace and the political environment, then why would that be considered a negative when someone brought it up and- - Because the Vice President of the United States, excuse me, is not in that category.

She is 10 times more qualified than he was.

Wait, wait.

And that is a low statement of purpose.

It is.

You hire a black janitor because you have 50 white janitors and you're in a town 50% black and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

The Vice President of the United States is as qualified as anybody who's run for president of the United States.

And that is not anything that should be attached to her.

And it's racism, that's what he's doing.

- The fact of the matter is Kamala- - It's sexism too.

- Kamala Harris did not just fall out of a coconut tree.

You go ahead and you can judge her in the context of her record and what she's actually done.

She was the last person in the room with Biden when they pulled out of Afghanistan.

She was put in charge of the border.

She was in charge of the billions of tax dollars spent on a nationwide broadband internet that no one was hooked up to yet.

She was in charge of electrifying school buses.

She spent hundreds of millions of dollars on, only got 60 school buses electrified.

When she was the top cop in California she put nonviolent drug offenders of the minority community, which she's pandering to right now, into jail.

And she kept them in jail - Pandering?

- for the entire, longer than they needed to be.

And this was all brought up in the election and Biden and everything.

- So since you know - all this, why doesn't Trump talk about?

I disagree with you 90%.

But this is policy and this is performance.

- I would ask the same question.

- Why doesn't he do that instead of talking - Same question.

- about her race or her gender?

We should not be doing this in America.

- I would ask the same question about the Democrats.

Why are they talking about race and gender so much?

Why is this this taboo subject where all of a sudden you become a fill in the blankist when you question it and you're against what?

- I'm glad I'm here.

- I'm glad I'm here too.

- [Jim] Do you wanna jump in here?

- I think Donald Trump doesn't know how to run against her.

So he's falling back to his very comfort level of identity politics and going after her on that level.

- Continue.

I'm making an executive decision.

We're foregoing Outrageous and Kudos 'cause I'm enjoying this discussion here.

But don't you think all of that is gonna come up during the campaign?

Exactly what.

If the Republicans stay focused, which, that's a crap shoot as to whether Trump's gonna go off the rails.

A lot of what he's talking about is gonna get brought up in the campaign.

- Did you hear me talking about my favorite Attorney General of Rhode Island?

He has seven or eight, really, jobs, and one of 'em is put people in prison.

I served on the parole board three and a half years.

I know how complex it is, you don't always get it right.

And they can always find one Willie Horton case to hang around your neck, And that's what they're doing to Vice President Harris.

They're saying probably 10% of her cases didn't go right.

And in California, where you have all those deputies making decisions.

Yeah, 10% didn't go right.

- Let me just ask quickly, we have a minute left, third party candidates, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s there, libertarian candidate.

If it comes down to Trump can't reach 50%, but he might not have to.

Where does that factor in in your mind?

- I think that's gonna be a big issue.

I think Robert Kennedy actually got a big hit when Kamala Harris was named the presidential candidate because I think a lot of people were just so upset that the Democrats put up just such a mentally incapacitated candidate to run for office, that they were willing to put their vote with Robert Kennedy.

But now that they've actually got somebody that the media and everybody's got behind, I never thought George Clooney, Megan Thee Stallion would be so involved in presidential politics, but they're just gonna try to push her over the finish line without having her answer any questions to the American public.

- We're gonna continue this in the green room afterwards.

Thank you for joining us Billy, good to see you, and Lisa.

Ray, nice to have you back.

You were on "Lively" years ago.

We're bringing you back after a long hiatus.

- Thank you.

- Nice to see you.

Folks, if you don't catch us Friday at 7:00 or Sunday at noon, we archive all of our shows at ripbs.org/lively.

You can catch us on social media and wherever you get your favorite podcast.

It is a lot going on in the summer.

We will have it all covered.

Hope you come back next week as "A Lively Experiment" continues.

Have a great weekend.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] A Lively Experiment" is generously underwritten by.

- Hi, I'm John Hazen White Jr. For over 30 years, "A Lively Experiment" has provided insight and analysis of the political issues that face Rhode Islanders.

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