[dramatic upbeat music] ♪ [dramatic upbeat music continues] ♪ [dramatic upbeat music continues] ♪ [dramatic upbeat music continues] - Hello and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

With our television studio undergoing renovations, we've done our best to bring you insights from comic creators, publishers, and the world of fandom by attending conventions in Charlotte, Raleigh, and Baltimore.

On this episode, we'll be diving into our archives to bring you never-before aired interviews with comic creators from the early days of "Comic Culture."

We'll kick off retro "Comic Culture" with writer/artist Tim Seeley talking to UNCP alum Aaron Varnam way back in 2013 at Myrtle Beach's XCON.

- Tell me how it is to get onto like something like Image Comics?

- I mean, it's an honor for me 'cause when I grew up, you know, I was 13 when Image sort of hit the scene, and I saw that whole thing where, you know, the big guys left and went over to form their own company.

So, you know, working for Image to me is still sort of a honor.

Like, I still nerd-out about it when I see the credits on the bottom, and it says like Todd McFarlane and Erik Larsen and Mark Silvestri as like, you know, the guys who run the show.

But I mean, I just think they're pretty much, they're the best thing in the industry for doing your own thing, for getting as many people as possible to see it because Image has such a good name with comics that, you know, that you're so much better off doing something with them creator-owned than trying to do it by yourself.

- How tough is it getting your start in the comic book industry?

I know it's kind of like a who-you-know business right now.

Is it tough to kind of break that glass ceiling?

- I would say it's basically like now it's the toughest and the easiest at the same time because right now you have more... Like, everybody's starting out.

You have more venues to put your stuff out than ever before because you have the internet.

And you know, when I was a kid, you had to go to a... To get a comic to show people, I'd have to go to the print shop and make like bad xeroxes, you know?

Now, there's the access of doing web strips and putting your stuff up there and developing an audience that way, communities of stuff.

So it's so much easier to be seen, but the other side of that is there's a whole lot of people trying to be seen, so the competition now is much more, you know?

And I think that's not gonna change.

I think that, you know, as media gets easier to use and technology gets better, it's always gonna be that sort of deluge of ideas, and sort the cream of the crop always rises up.

- It's almost like it dilutes some of the talent out there, but then again, you have to be a little bit more creative.

You have to be a little bit to kind of get your face out.

- Yeah, absolutely, and you know, the old saying, I think Mark Wade said it, was like breaking into comics is like breaking out of prison.

Once you figure out one way to do it, that way is closed forever, you know?

And I think that's certainly true, but there's so many ways to... You know, you can be sort of just a writer, or you can be a cartoonist who does everything, or you can, you know, become someone who's known because you're a personality on the internet, you know?

There's so many other ways to get attention and get people to follow you that, you know, there's times I get jealous when I think of what we used to have to do and stand in line at cons, and, you know, it's totally different now, so.

- I'm sure when you were younger, you were on the other side of the booth.

You were the one that was waiting for- - Yeah, some editor to look at my pages or whatever.

And that was also a time when, you know, when you were trying to get someone to read a script or something, it was never gonna happen.

So I mean, I kind of drew because people would actually look at art, you know?

Like, I could make that happen.

Getting people to look at a script...

So, you know, I had to draw my own story so someone would read them.

But, you know, I mean that's kind of, that's why you've seen all these kids with, they're doing their web comics, and they control everything, and it's their voice that makes it, you know, makes it appealing.

So, yeah, jealous.

- Was there any certain run of comics?

Was there a storyline, or was... What got you... Like, when did you know?

Was it the Keith Giffen run of Justice League or what?

- It was a whole bunch of stuff, but I happened to hit, you know, such an important age where it was like, you know, there was great stuff in the late '80s and early '90s, and then there was a whole bunch of crap in the early '90s.

So, you know, I kind of got to see like, oh, this is how it can go horribly awry.

But I think, you know, even...

I used to get the "Classic X-Men."

It was called "Classic X-Men."

It was reprints, but it was John Byrne and Chris Claremont X-Men stories.

And I think like that and the Avenger stories at the time, like, I think I was like six or seven, I was like, "This is what I'm doing."

But as far as like really sort of getting it and like feeling like, you know, this is something I can have a voice for, I feel like it was either "The Tick" or "The Crow" or both [Aaron laughs] because they were things that I knew were published by people.

Like, they weren't by a company.

They were self-published, and they were so distinct in their voice.

You know, "The Crow" obviously really depressingly distinct in its voice, really dark, and the "The Tick" really just light.

And something about those books like really struck me, and I became obsessed with like indie books for, you know, all those, in that era of the '90s, where that was pretty much the only really good stuff coming out, you know?

- Are you sure it wasn't the Keith Giffen run of Justice League?

[Tim laughs] - That was this weird moment where you can make funny superheroes at the big two, and people will read 'em, and now, you know, it's impossible.

You can't get people to get into...

I mean, indie comics and stuff, they're certainly into, but I mean, that sort of era of stuff was like the... 'Cause I still like my superheros funny and light, really.

I mean, you know, I enjoy a certain amount of dark superhero stuff, but, you know, "The Tick" and that era of Justice League, and like "Scud the Disposable Assassin" was coming out, if you ever read that.

- Yeah, "Scud."

And "Madman" by Allred.

- Oh, madman, yeah.

I love that stuff.

Like that to me was...

When I do superheroes, I definitely kind of think of that era of stuff, so.

- So you kind of infuse some of your sense of humor and some of your influences into your writing work, right?

- Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, it's really tough for me not to crack jokes.

Like "Revival" is hard for me to write because it's not funny.

Some of the characters are kind of funny, but, you know, it's a serious story.

But then that's what "Hack/Slash" is for, is just I had to, like... To me, it's more entertaining for me to write if I get to make it funny, you know?

So there's whole characters in "Hack/Slash" that are just for laughs like Pooch and, you know, Cat Curio.

They're like humor characters stuck in a horror comic, you know, so.

- Being from... You're working mainly at one of the kind of, it's not one of the big two.

- No.

- You're working for Image and Dark Horse, are kind of like your main places right now.

Is it hard to make a living?

- No, I mean, Dark Horse actually pays as well as DC- - Really?

- Yeah.

And I mean, Image, you know, it's obviously how well you sell, but I've got 10 years of "Hack/Slash" comics that I still sell trade, so I'm still getting paid for the first "Hack/Slash story I ever did just because of the, they call it accruals, but you're selling stuff over time.

But yeah, I mean, like, you know, I've gone through leaner years, and I've had years where I had to pick up extra stuff.

Like, these last couple years have been not so lean, so, you know, it's like any work freelance.

There are are people that will probably tell you there are moments where it's more lucrative to do stuff on your own.

I mean, it's not like Robert Kirkman's gonna be going back to Marvel anytime soon, right?

He's making way more on doing his own thing than they could ever pay him to write "Spider-Man," you know?

So it just kind of depends on who you are, who your voice is, you know?

I like working for Mo in DC sometimes, and sometimes I'm happy that I don't do all my work there, you know, so, but it just kind of depends, you know?

When they throw me a Batman story, I will say, "Yes, I will have a Batman story," so.

[laughs] - You can never turn down a Batman story.

- Why would you, right?

You know, it's like a- - It's Batman.

- Yeah, when you write a Batman story, it's like something you tell your grandma, you know?

If your grandma says, "Well, what are working on now?"

I can say, "Oh, Batman."

She knows what I'm talking about.

If I say "Revival," she, "Eh?"

So, you know, at least it's like, it's recognizable, so.

- [Terence] Back in 2013, Aaron and I attended Durham's NC Comicon.

Aaron caught up with Gail Simone to ask her about pitching "Secret Six" to DC Comics.

- It was kind of funny because myself along with a lot of other comic creators had pitches in that were, you know, villains books.

We were huge fans of John Ostrander's "Suicide Squad."

So everyone wanted to do a villain book.

It just so happened that when they were doing this big event, they wanted to do a villain book as part of the event.

So they came to me and asked me if I was interested in doing a book called "Villains United."

And I'm like, "Oh, are you kidding me?

This is gonna be awesome.

Yes, I'm interested."

And so then I started asking if I could use the Joker.

No.

what about the Penguin?

No.

And I went through all this list of villains that I kind of wanted to use that I thought would be amazing, and none of them were available.

They were all being used elsewhere.

And so I started thinking, "Okay, how are we gonna make this villains book [laughs] with no villains?"

And so I just came up with this idea to reinvent some older characters, reimagine the characters like Catman, and put together this really strange team of characters that really were not that great a people that might accidentally do something good sometimes.

It wasn't their goal necessarily.

And so we just had a lot of fun with that.

And then out of "Villains United" came the "Secret Six" miniseries, and then out of that came ongoing...

It lasted three years.

So it's just really fun to work with the psychology of this group and, you know, their morals and stuff.

And in the end, I think that the groups were better friends than like the Justice League and stuff even though they're all selfish bastards and out for themselves.

[laughs] - [Aaron] So with the new 52, and I know you've got "Suicide Squad" now, but is is there talk of maybe perhaps bringing back the "Secret Six"?

- Not that I'm aware of.

- Oh, that stinks.

[Gail laughs] - Yeah.

- How does it make you feel going to these cons and seeing, like, you had a very seminal run on Wonder Woman, and seeing some of the people cosplaying your versions of the character?

- It's amazing.

Cosplayers are amazing, and we had the greatest Misfit from "Birds of Prey" run.

And we had, you know, lots of Black Canaries and things and Bane and different characters that I've written throughout the years, and it's so fun.

It's so fun to see people that enjoy and like these characters so much that they're willing to dress up and spend the time making costumes and be uncomfortable all day walking around in them and seeing how much they love them.

It's incredible.

It really livens up the conventions, and I love it.

- Growing up, you were...

The comic book industry was really run by males.

Breaking into the comic book industry and especially making all... A lot of your comics have very strong female leads or very strong female characters.

How were you able to get by with that in that world, and how did you, like, the psychology behind that?

- [laughs] Here's the deal.

It doesn't really enter my brain that I'm a female in this industry until other people remind me, and it's not to say...

I mean, I know I'm female.

I'm perfectly aware of that, but I don't look at myself as a writer in those terms.

And you know, I've always done things that were a little bit out of the ordinary regardless.

And so being in an industry that, you know, had a lot of male creator to female creator, you know, not great ratio, let's say, it just didn't enter into it.

It was like, I just wanted to write the best story that I could possibly write, get enough sales that I can, you know, [laughs] stick around for a while.

And those were the kinds of things I was concerned with.

But I did wanna prove that we could have some strong female characters that were valuable to the companies, valuable as characters, that had different personalities from each other and that weren't always stories about gossip and backstabbing and putting on makeup and things like that.

And there's nothing wrong with those type of stories, but I really wanted to tell more of a group of girls that could get along and get in and go on missions and get things done of their own volition.

And same with Wonder Woman, very proactive character.

She's not a character that had to have her adventures thrust upon her.

She'd go out and seek them.

And that's the type of stuff I like to write and what I'm concerned about, not whether I'm, you know, one of a certain amount of female writers in an industry.

It's not something that I worry about every day.

[laughs] - [Terence] At the same convention, I met my favorite Superman creator, Dan Jurgens.

I asked him about his approach to Clark Kent.

- Well, you know, to go along right with what you said that, yeah, Clark Kent was Superman.

And if you look at it and start to consider, here's a kid who was raised throughout his childhood years, and the Superman I worked on at that point, there was no Superboy, remember.

So his powers did not start to manifest themselves until later.

It really was.

Here's a kid who grew up on a farm in Kansas, and that is the core of who obviously Clark is and therefore the core of who Superman is.

And that's what I tried to convey.

- When you created Booster Gold, I think you were at DC just a few years at that point.

So how do you convince a major comic book publisher to give you a series of your own?

- Well, if you look back at the time when I created Booster, so we're talking 1984 and 1985 at DC, it was a very creative time there.

And there were a lot of different things happening in terms of them wanting to try new things.

So one of the things I did is I was, I just had this thought in mind for a different type of hero.

You know, they were already starting to do the Blue Devil stuff.

It was clear they wanted to experiment with different directions and everything.

And I had breakfast with Dick Giordano one day, and I said, "This is what I wanna do.

Here's this general hero.

Here's this goofy name, Booster Gold, but here's what he's about.

And it is about someone who wants to do the right thing but doesn't mind getting the glory in the process.

So he's into it in terms of the media stuff.

He's into it in terms of the celebrity aspect of things and all that.

And yeah, he wants to do the right thing, but he's kind of awkward in the way he does.

He might screw a couple of things up."

And so I described the whole thing to Dick, and he just said, "Let's do it."

And it was that simple.

I mean, Dick said, "We'll do this," before I even wrote anything down.

And it really was, I typed up a paragraph on a sheet, and it was a go from there, total green light.

It was a great way to work.

- Now, I guess things have changed.

It's been about 30 years since Booster's been created.

I'm assuming now it's a little bit more difficult when you're dealing with a company like DC because they're part of the Warner Communication family, and you know, the characters are assets rather than, you know, the playground for creators such as yourself.

So have you seen a shift?

If you wanted to propose a series to DC, would they be agreeable to something in that way?

Or would you have to go through more hoops?

- Well, I think now it's a bigger company, and in a bigger company, there are more layers.

So if I think back to DC at that time, again, we're talking a long time ago now.

It's almost 30 years.

It was just a smaller, simpler type of operation.

Yes, now, you know, if you all of a sudden lay the right idea on the right person at the right time, you can get a lot done in a short amount of time.

But it is still a tougher thing, I think, not tougher, but a longer process to go through because, yeah, more people have to authorize it and sign off on it.

- [Terence] Next up is former Justice League artist Kevin Maguire.

You're known for your facial expressions, your ability to tell a story without a word and have everyone understand what the characters are feeling.

How do you approach that?

- Well, first and foremost, like, since I've been in high school, I've been involved in acting, improv, comedy, that kind of thing.

So for me, it's always about, what is the character going through?

You know, how are they feeling, and how is that expressed physically?

You know, when I'm doing improv on stage, I'm doing that just without thinking.

But when you're sitting there drawing it, it's like, you just find all the little subtleties.

Just having an eyebrow go up just a slight bit on one side changes what you believe the person is thinking.

And that's like pretty valuable storytelling tool because it adds all kinds of subtlety and shading.

Did that make any sense?

- Absolutely made sense.

[Kevin laughs] I deal a lot with actors as well, being on the other side of the camera.

So I do know what you're saying on that.

Now, your iconic characters are your approach to Booster Gold and Blue Beetle.

When you were drawing those two characters together, how did you convey that, I guess, buddy feeling?

- It just came naturally, I guess.

It wasn't anything I was thinking of conveying that way.

It's just like they were buddies, and I've had buddies, and I kind of know how that works.

It does amaze me though.

It really does amaze me that they're like, how those two characters have become sort of a, not a symbol of buddies, but I see 13-year-old girls dressed up as Blue Beetle and Booster Gold.

They weren't even born when that book was being done, and it amazes me.

I don't know what to attribute that to, but it's great.

- [Terence] I guess the other question is a monthly deadline, how do you approach, I guess what, 20-some odd pages a month- - You're talking to the wrong guy about that.

You're talking to the wrong guy about monthly deadlines.

I'm not a monthly deadline guy.

- Looking at your work, I would see it would be kind of tough because- - Yeah, I put a little- - I see you're doing a sketch here of Blue Beetle, and it seems like you're putting a lot more effort into it than just a quick sketch.

- I haven't even done the coloring yet.

I mean, this is just layer one.

So yeah, I'm a perfectionist with raging ADD, so you know, things like this drive me nuts 'cause it's all these little details, and I just get like really bored, like, "Oh, something's on TV," and you know, I just get easily distracted, but it has to be perfect.

So that makes it difficult for me to keep to a monthly schedule, unfortunately, but what are you gonna do?

- [Terence] And the artwork that you do, I had read a few years back that you were switching over to all digital, but I see that most of this seems to be pen and ink.

- A lot of these are old, but, yes, I did a few issues on digital, but the thing is it wasn't really speeding me up as I had hoped it would.

There are things that I definitely prefer doing it in the computer, but there's also, you know, the market of selling original art.

And going completely digital means you just completely get rid of that.

That's no longer there.

If it had sped me up more, then I would just stay on the computer, but it hasn't, so I'm not, - [Terence] I spoke with Archie Comics writer/artist Dan Parent about his creation Kevin Keller.

- I created Kevin in 2010, and Kevin is the first openly gay character at Archie Comics.

So yeah, he appeared in the issue of "Veronica" 202 and really ever since then, the character just took off.

It was very popular.

And he graduated to his own series, his own ongoing series, and is now part of the Archie universe.

- [Terence] And speaking of the Archie universe, why do you believe Archie comics are willing to take on subjects that other comic publishers aren't willing to touch?

- Well, I think it has a lot to do with new management that's there.

We've got a new CEO, John Goldwater, and he really likes to keep Archie relevant.

So he's all for trying new things.

Creativity is the key.

He likes us all to be very creative, and if it's a good idea, he lets us do it.

As with Kevin Keller, as with new storylines that show a lot more diversity where, you know, interracial relationships, things that Archie didn't do before, John is very pro trying new things.

- [Terence] I've read a lot about editors at certain companies making it difficult for creators to create because there's always a mandate that the character must do this or must do that.

You're saying it's different at Archie.

So you kind of have free rein with the character within reason?

- Well, within reason, of course, because we're still, you know, restrained by the fact that it's like a family sort of, you know, or a all-ages comic.

But aside from that, they want us to try new things.

They want us to do different things that will, you know, just make the town of Riverdale more interesting.

You do that by adding new characters, diverse characters.

- [Terence] And I guess my most important question is what was it like working with George Takei on that issue of Kevin Keller?

- George Takei, if you can believe it, he's nicer than he appears to be.

You know, he appears to be like the nicest guy in the world, and he is extremely nice, very gracious.

You know, he was an Archie fan growing up too, which helps.

And when, you know, he was so on board when he heard about Kevin and was so glad to work with us, and we were thrilled to work with him, and hopefully we'll be able to do it again.

- [Terence] At HeroesCon 2017, I asked writer Matt Fraction how he shifts between genres.

- The process is different for each book.

I tend to try and stay longhand as long as possible.

Something about it being physical helps a lot.

There's a lot of wool-gathering and sort of daydreaming and thinking and that it all kind of comes out.

Like, there's typing, you know what I mean?

Like if there's a lot of writing, all is up here for me, and then it's just typing.

And I get bored really easily, so I try to write things that are different from every other thing that I'm writing.

So I always liken it to, like, cross training.

Like one day is arm day, and one day is leg day, and one day is cardio.

Like, you don't get bored if I can switch it up, and if I'm ahead enough, and I have the luxury of time, I can see how I feel that particular day and write whatever I want.

And writing for deadline really teaches you how to not be precious.

Like, that's the best part about working in comics, is like you learn like, oh, it's gotta be done now, and otherwise I would work on it forever.

You know, I would never publish anything if I had endless publication dates, you know.

So there's a... You learn the rhythm, and I learned to kind of just promise myself to do better next time and get it good enough because it's never gonna be finished.

It's never gonna be good enough, but I have to get it out and then go forward and try to learn.

And it keeps momentum going, you know?

I always wanna try and do better than last time.

And like, the worst day in comics is Wednesday 'cause it's the day all your mistakes come out and are made permanent forever, you know, so.

- So when you talk about this, 'cause I guess we all have self-doubt, when you look at something later on, it's gotta be printed, it's gotta be published, it's gotta come out, do you look at something that maybe you had some reservations at, and now you look at it, and you think, "Oh, it's better than I was hoping?"

- No, I tend to not go back.

It was different when I was writing stuff for Marvel, where I needed like continuity reference.

But no, I tend to not go back once it's done, just sort of move forward 'cause if I look back, I'll find 10 million...

I still think about things.

Stories I wrote 10 years ago, I'm like, "Oh, I should have done this."

I'll come up with a fix for a problem I had 10 years ago.

Like, I can't turn it off, so I am not, in fact, my own biggest fan, which helps.

- Well, thank you so much.

While at HeroesCon 2017, I asked Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez about selling a story on a cover versus telling the story sequentially inside the book.

- Yes, in a cover, you have to tell the story, but not nowadays.

Nowadays it's just an open-up.

About 20 years ago or less, you are telling a story in the cover because it was related to the inside, but not anymore because we're doing a lot of variable covers of a sort.

The difference, I don't know, it's something completely different.

In a comic, you develop a story, after that, in a script.

And in a cover, you think in terms of illustration and in calling the attention of the reader.

That's all.

- Now you've done a lot of superhero work, but you've also done "Cinder and Ashe," which was a book where folks are wearing regular clothing.

It's an action-adventure story.

How do you approach a story that is more set in the real world as opposed to the fantastical world of superheroes or "Atari Force?"

- Well, personally, I approach that kind of a story with a smile in my face because it's the kind of story I would like to do.

I am not too fanatic of super heroes.

Then when I got the chance to do something like "Cinder and Ashe," oh, let me see, "Atari Force" or "Twilight" or even "Road to Perdition," that's the kind of stuff I like to do.

- And growing up, who would be the artist that you would look for in the paper, you know, in the comics that made you want to draw?

- If I have to make a list, it's going to be a big one, okay?

I was brought up in Argentina, and the companies over there, they reprint material from the syndicates, from King Features, from United, whatever.

And those artists, the artists working on those syndicates, were the ones I was looking for, Alex Raymond, Harold Foster, Milton Caniff, Jerry Siegel, [snaps] Ken Bald, Stan Drake, whatever, okay.

Just when I came to the States, I discovered the superheroes and the people working on superheroes like Jack Kirby or Joe Kubert.

- And this will be the last question.

You've had a lot of people ink your work.

Is there someone who stands out as a favorite to you?

That's a loaded question, I know.

- All of them, they did a wonderful job, yeah.

- Well, thank you so much.

Thank you.

It's an absolute pleasure meeting you.

That's all the time we have for this episode of "Comic Culture."

I'd like to thank you so much for watching.

We hope to see you again soon.

"Comic Culture" is a production of the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

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