We look back at this year's property tax reform debate, from a vet threat from Governor Mike Braun, to a state House rall calling out lawmakers, and more.

On this special episode of Indiana Week in Review for the week ending July 4th, 2025.

Indiana Week in Review is produced by WFYI in association with Indiana Public Broadcasting Stations.

The week ending February 7th, 2025.

Governor Mike Braun sent a message this week to local leaders who say his property tax bill could decimate their budgets: Prove it.

Braun hosted citizens in his office to highlight the need for relief.

Franklin resident Mark Gross says his property taxes have increased about $200 a month over the last decade.

He says he's frustrated that local governments don't seem to need the sam fiscal discipline he has to use.

County taxes.

I guess wha we're really looking at it as is a blank check, so to speak, to.

Just keep saying we need more money.

We need more money.

Local leaders like Carmel Mayor Susan Finkam told lawmakers that communities have used growing property tax revenues to meet rising costs.

For example, since 2020, the cost to repave a mile of road has surged 43% and emergency medical response costs have jumped 33%.

Both of these figure exclude rising personnel costs.

Governor Braun says local governments need to run more efficiently.

Prove it, prove it that you didn't salt away a lot, that you didn't overburden the taxpayer.

Braun's plan would cost local governments, not including schools, more than half $1 billion a year statewide.

Local leaders like Terre Haute Mayor Brandon Sakbun said there's no wa to avoid cuts to public safety.

Police and fire salaries are 82% of our general fund.

Some Republican lawmakers say local governments need to ruthlessly cut Lindsey.

This is going to sound like I'm being sarcastic.

This is a genuine question.

Does this wee and the debate playing out show how complicated it is?

-It does- - To creat meaningful property tax relief?

Yeah, absolutely.

But it also depends on what the goal of property tax relief is, i if that's to save people money, then the answer is still up in the air.

I mean, you've got municipalities left and right all very, very worried about this.

And you look at the, the side by side of the, the fiscal on this $146 million hit under Senate Bill one for Indianapolis.

That's huge.

I mean, that is significant when compared to the numbers they have.

And then, of course, if you pile it on with the suggested OMB cut from all the funding last Monday that was frozen but then not frozen.

So, I mean, this is this stands to impact folks in a very big way.

Everybody was talking about this at the state House this week.

This bled in the conversations even down in the utilities committee.

So this is this is a real big conversation that if it stands as it is, I mean, Senator Holdman's got a huge, huge issue on his hand making people happy with this.

To that end.

Are are the folks at the state House in a no-win situation in trying to craft property tax relief?

They put themselves in a box politically.

But I did like what, Governor Braun did this week, because the whole conversation at the statehouse with people like us is, oh my God, what is the government going to do?

And he said, wait, we're going to fli this narrative and bring these, these homeowners in and say, hey, you tell us what- Let's let's hear from them.

Let's hear from the homeowners who are actually reeling under this, because the focus is entirely at the statehouse on, oh my God, what are we going to do with local government?

Well, what's the what's - Cause those are the folks who, who- -Are showing up.

You are.

So it was great that Brian brought real people in to go hey, this is this is a problem.

At the same time.

At the same time you also have Governor Brown, though, saying that you know, not and the many many leaders at the state House, not just Governor Brown, just to be fair, saying that locals are not local leaders are not using those tool they have in their toolbox, but.

They also say so locals also asked for those tools.

Those tools exist because they asked for them so when we- So when we try to create this like juxtaposition between the legislature cutting taxes and telling locals to go raise taxes we're going to provide relief.

It's like the locals showed up and did that.

Now, they may not like th politics of doing that locally, but those are tools they asked for.

And so they should.

And so from the legislature, they're saying, go max out your tools and then come back here.

We'll figure out how to make this work.

I think the most likely outcome at the end, because of the hit on Indianapolis or whoever, is making sure that they can get anything done is to make sure it doesn't happen again.

This tax that the property taxes don't go up 20% year over year.

They go up 2% or 3%.

It feels like that part of Braun's- I don't kno if it'll be those exact numbers.

The 2% and 3% caps on on growth in the future.

I don't know if those will be, but that feels like something that's almost certainly going to be part of whatever the final property tax package is.

But John, this is a question I've been asking for a few days now, which is exactly the point that you two just made, which is the message from state lawmakers to local leaders is, well, maybe we're going t cut your property tax dollars, but you have all this untapped revenue potential in, whether it's local income taxes or to fund your roads, local weal and excise taxes.

Exactly.

Max those out.

Ways means that Tuesday was like half a dozen local taxes for the mayors of cities for showing up saying "Give me the authority to raise my taxes."

So, so, so max- Same down in utilities.

We give you the option of siting control, but yet you're still yeah.

So max out those tools and that won't mean it's bad for, a hit to your budgets.

But if what you're ultimatel promising to Hoosiers is relief, whether it's coming out of my left pocket for property taxes or my right pocket for wheel and income taxes am I really going to see relief?

You'll see relief for the political careers of the lawmakers who wrote, who ran in many cases on an you might not promising reform because because that something, as Mike says, has to happen.

I mean there's just too many promises, but there is a bit of a trick box here that people have have gotten themselves into.

And, and it's going to be hard to dig ou because there are real impacts on locals.

And if in fact, all the local taxing capacity is, tapped, well then I think a lot of people who feel that their Hallelujah, I'm going to get a break on my propert taxes are going to get walloped on these with the wheel tax and with a local income tax.

Indiana, in terms of residential property, primary property, it's the 39th lowest tax burden, not rate, but tax burden across the board on Hoosiers.

So Hoosiers are not bearing a lot.

I know it's painful when it goes up 100%.

That's painful.

But you could argue it could go up 1,000%.

But if it starts off at $10 an you're going to, you know, 100.

And I'm not saying I.

Think that's cold comfort for people who are struggling to pay their property taxes.

Exactly.

It's cold comfort.

It's.

But my point is, is, is and I'm not articulating it well is the money's got to come from someplace and you're not starting from a that's not pumping a lot of money into the system.

Or let's say it's not pumping the equivalent amount that you would if rates and the structure that other states have adopted were in place.

Is the other problem for lawmakers trying to craft relief or promise relief to Hoosiers, the fact that no matte what they do on property taxes, if they're only affecting the property tax system, any relief isn't going to come for at least a year.

Yeah.

I mean, Senate President pro tem, Roderick Bray, he told those reporters just yesterday that, this year's bills, you know, forthcoming bills can't do anything about that.

But I also think that no matter what they do, it's, it's just moving it around.

Government costs, what government costs.

And as many times as Governor Brau and even our legislative leaders say that locals need to find efficiencies, the government needs to find efficiencies.

It still will cost something.

And that something is still more than people will probably want to pay.

But I do think that, you know, by, you know, cutting property taxes and letting locals raise income taxes again, you're just moving it around.

But are you moving it around in a way that's advantageous?

Like, for example, the 70 year old who's on Social Security paying less in property taxes versus, you know, the people who are still working and are now getting taxed on greater on their same income, for the week ending February 21st, 2025.

Well, Governor Mike Braun this week said he'll veto major property tax reform legislation if it doesn't improve as the session continues.

Legislative leaders say that threat makes their work more difficult.

The initial property tax measure was Braun's proposal rolling back homeowners property tax bills to 2021 level while costing local governments and schools billions of dollars.

The version the Senate passed is more targeted at older Hoosiers, disabled veterans and first time homebuyers, providing $1.4 billion in tax savings over three years.

Senate GOP Leader Roderick Bray says Braun's veto threat brings challenges.

But we're going to keep our head down and try to try and craft a polic that works for state of Indiana.

Senate Democratic Leader Shelli Yoder says Braun has put his party in a pickle.

To that, I would say, well, welcome to what it's like to, not always get your way.

The legislative session will resume March 3rd.

Niki, are you surprised at Governor Braun threatening threatening a veto at this stage?

Yeah, I thought it might, might wait till at least we see the house Republican version out of committee.

But, you know, he is throwing down the gauntlet, and he's making clear that he wants actual cuts, not just slowing the growth.

Fascinating though, because obviously, if they pass a bill, they can easily override him.

And there's nothing that says they can't just come in and gavel out.

So there's no actual, you know.

Nothing- -Such a weak veto in this state, yeah.

And for a special session even.

Yeah, you can call them in, but.

They don't have to do it.

Yeah.

Exactly.

What do you make of Governo Braun kind of planting his flag at this stage of session on, "This isn't good enough"?

Well, I think when you run on something in the fashion that he did, which was this was issue number one, issue number two issue number three, essentially, if you added if you did that word map of what he talked about during the, during the campaign, I'm sure that's the big word.

Yeah.

Property tax relief.

So, I mean, in a way, he was already people are thinking now he's backing himself into a corner, but he was already there.

And I think in term of the political style points, if he vetoes it he still can say he vetoed it.

And I think in every likelihood it will be overridden.

And I remember, this is goes to both parties.

But Evan Bayh vetoed a 11th hour budget in '93.

And and saying it was going to be horrible, that budget.

I don't think it was five minutes before, it was overturned.

And and and it's just there was no qualms or compunction because I think that was preferable to the state closing down.

And I think.

Well, I mean, it's the reality of, of the veto power of the Indiana governor is- -is weak.

- if they pass, if they if a bill got to his desk, they've got the votes to override.

He does still get to sa I veto which which is a victory.

Is- how much more challenging to to the point Jon made.

How much more challenging does this make the conversation in the rest of session?

I think it adds certainly add challenges, but I actually don't think it changes too much.

I think historically, you've always seen the Senate be the chamber that's typically more conservative is not the right word, but like kind of more reserved when it comes to, you know, the big hitting issues that you like to see.

So I think it's fascinating that he decided to do it.

Now there is even like some, some media, some, social media strategy kind of trying to put on pressure for senators there.

Yeah.

And it's just so fascinatin to see the two philosophies of that, both that I think they both think they're tryin to win the hearts of Hoosiers.

When they say your local government needs to make tax cuts so you can get more of the money, versus the state government saying, we don't want to cut your police and your services and things like that.

And I think both are so confident that those messages are resonating with their constituents that you might not see either either turn- either team back down.

And I think it's going to be really interesting because it's it's all just a negotiating tactic at this point.

Chris brings up a really interesting point, which was, social media advertising aroun this issue, paid for by Braun's- the private organizatio that they set up, the governor set up to, to raise money for for things, and do policy work.

Is that going to engender like, is that going to sour the relationshi that so far has been seemingly working really well between Governor Braun and the legislature- and certainly Republicans in the legislature- Is that risking souring that relationship?

Well, whenever you target, which was what he's trying to do, you always bear the risk that somebody is going to get offended and come from a pro-Braun to an anti-Braun status.

But the the bigger problem is that Braun is backed himself into a corner with the promise that he made in that campaign.

He cannot deliver a rollback to 2021.

He can't, okay.

He can't.

It's not it's not, you know, he can't because massive- It's perhaps not realisitic.

It is not.

You'd have massive police and fire layoffs everywhere.

And it just is not going to happen.

And the problem is he doesn't like that.

Well tough.

He should have looked at th fiscal before he ever proposed.

And as long as they keep insisting on cutting the income taxes, they can't do what they need to do to provide property tax relief.

And that's going to be a problem for Braun going forward.

for the week ending March 21st, 2025.

Governor Mike Braun spoke to a crowd of a couple hundred people at the statehouse who are rallying for property tax relief or in many cases, the elimination of property taxes altogether.

The event was led by conservative local radio hosts from WIBC who repeatedl called on the crowd to vote out lawmakers who didn't back significant relief.

(Chanting) Where's my money?

Where's my money?

Where's my money?

Braun told the cheering crowd down the hallway from the House and Senate chambers that people need to get their minds righ about real property tax relief.

They say they're not hearing it.

Well they're going to be hearing it after today if they haven't before.

The rally featured the lieutenant governor, state lawmakers and local officials like Marshall County Commissioner Jesse Bohannon, who had a message for his fellow local leaders.

We cannot fight this.

It is inevitable.

Let's get behind it and help it get done right.

Legislative debate over property tax relief will continue the rest of session.

Can this influence the debate in the last month and a half of session?

I certainly think it can influence it.

And I think that Governo Braun showing up is really what took this even from more of like a grassroots effort to a more significant showing of force per se, because I think if he didn't show up, you would have had the same group of, you know, more vocal folks that have been vocal since the beginning of this whole discussion and just kind of having an event at the statehouse.

And I don't think it would have had the same impact, but, you know we were just talking about it, but I think the picture of Braun holding up the signs, I thought it looked like he was having a good time.

And I think it showed that, you know, the whole point of a rally, right, is for a lawmaker to hear somebody speak and say, you know, that's a good point and might change my vote.

It's the whole it's the whole idea of image and momentum.

And I think Governor Brau showing up looking like he had the momentum, that he was with the people.

It also helps that he's been he's been able to harp on the same message, the same plan the entire time.

I think it really showed that he has the momentum going forward, which is what I think was the ultimate goal there.

And, I- it wasn't the biggest rally I've ever seen, but it was certainly one of the loudest.

And it made my job a little difficult in the statehouse that day.

But, so I definitely think that the lawmakers, you know, heard the volume, they heard the music.

I'm just not sure they'll be dancing toward the end.

They they definitely heard it.

It was loud.

And they did it on the third floor, which is down the hallway from both the House and Senate chambers as they were going into session that day.

So they definitely heard the rally going on.

What kind of impact can that have?

Doesn't have any impact.

You don't think so?

It doesn't have any.

You know, I laugh at this.

Republicans finally decided they have a property tax problem.

Mitch Daniels solved this forever by raising the sales ta to the highest in the country.

They have been in total control for the last 15 years.

Total control.

After that property tax deal the property taxes have doubled and now they're realizing it.

How about that?

They're the reason the property taxes are high.

That's why.

Because they have underfunded schools and all and roads and everything else.

And cut the corporate taxes in the meanwhile.

So they are the problem.

And the other part of this problem is that Beckwith just stuck it to Braun.

By doing that rally.

Braun cannot get his package passed.

He can't get it passed.

It's fiscally irresponsible.

It's not going to happen.

Okay.

Period.

And rather than having him sit down with the leadership and come up with a plan that is feasible and can be passed and allow him declare victory, he goes out and reinforces this non plan that isn't going to happen.

So the governor can then veto the bil and then call a special session, and then they'll pass it again and he'll look weak.

This is this brings up a point I haven't thought about which is the idea of is there any downside to this for Mike Braun?

I agree I think he was very enthusiastic and I think it represent he feels like he has momentum.

But I also agree with Ann and that they're not going to pass the Braun proposal.

Right.

And and that's okay.

No, no bill that's introduced just skates through without any changes.

Right.

But he does seem to have now the leaders on board for an actual cut.

Yeah.

For paying less next year than we're paying this year.

And so I think as long as he gets that, he can still legitimately claim victory, because that was not going to happen without him.

And without this push.

I do think there could have been a downside to the rally when they first set it up an they were just like 50 chairs.

I thought, yikes, guys.

Like if that's it, that is lawmakers that could actually be like oh, we don't have to pressure.

But they they packed them in there pretty good.

And so, in the end it was it was a good, good show.

And I think there are som lawmakers who might be teetering on the whole protection of local government versus helping their homeowners that I think probably sa that it might make a difference.

It's only been the last couple of weeks where, Rod Bray and Todd Huston have started kind of echoing the same line, which is one of the goals.

There's like three goals essentially they have now.

And and the first goal is to make the 26 bill less than the 25 bil for the majority of homeowners is- can Mike Braun take if that's the ultimate package that and you know whatever else they do long term, can Mike Braun take that to this crowd of people and declare victory?

The governor always ha the ability to declare victory, because you can always pick out pieces and and elements of a plan and say, see, I propelled I was the one who pushed this recalcitrant General Assembly to do what I wanted to do.

So you can always you know, it was Mik Pence, referred to guardrails.

He'd always say, I put up the guardrails and then the General Assembly can work within that.

So, and he was already I mean, he had doubled down on this before.

Now if there was any doubt a few weeks ago with the social media, a targeted social media ads that had certainly caugh the attention of of leadership.

So he has moved the ball.

pick this issu or any number of other issues.

Roads, funding, bridges, it's going to get shifte more to locals, school funding, these other types of things, libraries, police.

So the question in the end becomes, -Who's going to pay -the taxpayer, does that person feel relief if, in fact, the check that he or she is writing is equivalent to what he or she wrote before?

for the week ending April 18th, 2025. the Senat gave its final stamp of approval to a major property tax reform package this week, sending the measure to the governor who signed it into law hours later.

The headline from Republican Senator Travis Holdeman: Propert Tax Relief for most homeowners.

Two thirds of homeowners in 2026 will receive a bil less than they received in 2025.

Beginning next year, homeowners will receive a credit on their property tax bill of 10% of the bill, up to $300.

Those age 65 and older an disabled veterans would receive additional credits of $150 and $250, respectively.

The measure is expected to cost local governments up to $1.8 billion over just the next three years.

Republicans answer to that is new local income tax options.

But Democratic Senator Greg Taylor says local officials aren't going to raise income taxes.

You mark my words, you're going to cut services.

You think we got road problems?

You think we got access to government service problems here?

Just wait.

In a statement, governor Mike Braun called the bill historic property tax relief that makes the system fairer, more transparent, and easier to understand.

Niki, we hear about the number of homeowners who will see lower bills.

And I suppose at this point, just not- the bill just not going u will matter to a lot of people.

Will this satisfy enough Hoosiers to make it worth it?

Well, so you're talking about will it satisfy the extremely vocal segment?

Who let's be honest, they want to get rid of property taxes altogether.

It's never going to satisfy them.

I think it's a significant amount.

I think we overuse the word historic.

I've certainly been her when we gave larger percentage increases, when we've redone property tax systems before.

You've been through the like 2 or 3.

God, like, several of them.

So you kno it is going to help some people.

It really is.

Now whether it's going to conversely increase income taxes, I think we'll have to wait and see, because those are very hard decisions to make.

As we can see with the state budget, they don't want to vote for a tax increase.

They don't want to vote for a cigaret tax increase, which the polling tells you is the one that people are okay with.

So we'll see if locals actually end up going there or not.

But that that is a legit fear.

Jon, I mean, to Greg Taylor's point, are local officials going to go out and raise taxes on Hoosiers?

There will be a reluctance.

I mean, the message is clear.

It doesn't matter where you are in the state, what part, where county, where you reside which party you affiliate with.

People recognize that people don't like to pay taxes.

They don't want to see a tax increase.

And there will be a reluctance now, will the need, the absolute need for police services, for school funding?

I mean these are all different entities that would make these decisions.

It's not as if one entity in every county will make these decisions.

But when push comes to shove, the question is, will the the calls and the emails and the visits to government offices I don't know that we'll really, and I know it's cliche to say time will tell, but we won't really know.

How this plays out in the for this biennium.

Probably at the end of the day was a lot of this bill really about state lawmakers wanting to shift the pressure onto local lawmakers?

Yeah, I mean, I've I've said since the beginning, I think it really does come down to who wants to be the boogeyman, who wants to be the bad guy.

And this allows state lawmakers to with a straight face, saying, we offered you guy relief on our end that we did.

And then we also did cap, you know, the amount that local income taxes can rise.

But, I don't agree with Senator Taylor on much, but I think he had a good point of if you're the Republican Party and you own 70% of the state or the local governments, the head of them around the state, you know, that first election after some of thes local income taxes either go up or some people will get taxed for the first time with local income taxes.

How will that impact the statewide races?

Or at that local government level will be interesting to see.

Or if they don't go up, if if local officials don't raise taxes and instead cut services, where does the blame fall?

Well, I think it's depends on who's speaking.

The locals are going to blame the legislature.

The legislature is going to say you had an option.

Frankly, we're never- But who are the voters going to blame?

Well that remains, whoever's message- whoever's message is more effective.

Than, I suppose, whoever's at the ballot box first.

That's first.

Probably.

But you're never going to have any meaningful I mean, this is not historic, or at $300 makes a differenc for three years to some people.

But, you know, it's more relevant in 1825 than 2025, $300 a year.

But you're never going to have meaningful, property tax reform when you have 2300 units of government in this state who can raise revenue.

I mean, it's crazy.

And when you, you know, when you see Diego and, and, Beckwith going and buying $90,000 cars, you have a thousand trustees out there, are they provided transportation too?

You have Randolph County that has what a thousand, 2,000, 3,000 students, an they have five school districts.

I mean, it is absolutely crazy.

You're going to have to deal with that if you're ever going to have meaningful propert taxes- Cases, have the reserves.

Will be taxed- -billions of dollars- Which is which.

So they are there will be giving at the office as well.

Probably.

Lawmakers had a really difficult time crafting the property tax bill.

The only thing I can think of that would be harder is forcing local governmen consolidation at the statehouse.

Well, you know what?

It needs to be done.

That's Indiana Week in Review for this week.

You can find Indiana Week in Review's podcasts and episodes at wfyi.org/IWIR or on the PBS video app.

I'm Brandon Smith of Indiana Public Broadcasting.

Enjoy your holida weekend and join us next time.

Because a lot can happen in an Indiana week.

The views expressed are solely those of the panelists.

Indiana Week in Review is produced by WFYI in association with Indiana Public Broadcasting Stations.