♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Renee: THERE IS A LOT OF DISCUSSION AND CONTROVERSY ABOUT TEACHING SLAVERY, RACISM AND OTHER DARK MOMENTS IN AMERICAN AND KENTUCKY HISTORY IN PUBLIC EDUCATION CLASSROOMS.

TWO LOUISVILLE JOURNALISTS PRODUCE AN ENLIGHTENING RADIO CONSUMER ABOUT TEACHING RACE IN AMERICA.

WFPL'S PUBLIC RADIO REPORTERS STEPHANIE WOLF AND JESS CLARK TELL BUS THEIR WORK NOW ON CONNECTIONS.

TELL US ABOUT THEIR WORK NEXT ON CONNECTIONS.

>> STU FOR JOINING US >> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR THIS VERY IMPORTANT CONNECTIONS TODAY.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

WFPL NEWS LOUISVILLE TAKES A BOLD LOOK AT WHY TEACHING RACISM IN AMERICA'S CLASSROOMS HAS SPARKED CORONAVIRUS AND PROPOSED LEGISLATION.

ARTS AND CULTURE REPORTER STEPHANIE WOLF AND EDUCATION REPORTER JESS CLARK TAKE US INSIDE GERMAN SCHOOLS WHERE STUDENTS ARE MADE TO LEARN ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST AND CONTRAST THAT TO HOW STUDENTS IN THE U.S. AND KENTUCKY ARE TAUGHT ABOUT SLAVERY, SEGREGATION, JIM CROW ERA AND MORE.

AND I'M GLAD TO HAVE BOTH JESS AND STEPHANIE JOIN ME TODAY TO TALK ABOUT THIS RADIO DOCUMENTARY THAT YOU CAN STREAM NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US, JESS AND STEPHANIE, IT'S A PLEASURE.

>> >> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Renee: CONGRATULATIONS ON THIS SERIES THAT REALLY MAKES US THINK AND PRICKS OUR HEARTS AND MINDS.

I WANT TO GO TO YOU FIRST STEPHANIE BECAUSE YOU WERE AWARDED THIS SCHOLARSHIP, THIS OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO GERMANY.

TELL US HOW ALL OF THIS STARTED AND WHAT YOU WANTED TO ACCOMPLISH AS YOU SET OUT THERE?

>> THE WHOLE IDEA FOR THE PROJECT WAS SERENDIPITY BECAUSE I WAS DOING A FELLOWSHIP THROUGH THE INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR JOURNALISTS WHERE I WAS GOING TO BE IN GERMANY FOR TWO MONTHS.

THIS CAME ABOUT AS THESE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT SCHOOL CURRICULUM, PARTICULARLY CONCERNING U.S. HISTORY, RACISM WERE COMING UP AND I KNEW THAT HOLOCAUST CURRICULUM WAS MANDATORY IN GERMANY.

JESS AND I STARTED TALKING ABOUT THE IDEA OF CO-REPORTING A RADIO FEATURE.

AND WE QUICKLY REALIZED AFTER TALKING ONE DAY THAT WE COULDN'T FIT ALL OF THIS INTO A FOUR-MINUTE RADIO FEATURE.

THERE WAS JUST SO MUCH TO EXPLORE AND SO SO WITH ME BEING IN GERMANY, IT GAVE ME A LOT OF TIME TO TALK TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND GET DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE MANDATORY AND BREAK THAT DOWN AND UNDERSTAND THAT A BIT MORE WHEN IT COMES TO HOLOCAUST.

>> SO WHEN WERE YOU IN GERMANY AND HOW DOES THAT TIME TO THE SCHOOL CURRICULUM CONVERSATIONS WE WERE HAVING AND EVEN IN JEFFERSON COUNTY IN PARTICULAR.

I WAS THERE FOR ALL OF AUGUST AND I CAME BACK EARLY OCTOBER, SO FOR GERMANY OPPORTUNITIES, THEY WEREN'T QUITE BACK IN SCHOOL UNTIL SEPTEMBER, BUT IT WORKED OUT WELL WITH THE START OF THE SCHOOL YEAR AND IN KENTUCKY THERE WERE BILLS FILED TARGETING THE DISCUSSION OF RACISM IN CLASS.

THE TIMING WORKED OUT FOR US TO EXPLORE THIS TOPIC FURTHER.

>> Renee: I WANT US TO SHOW SOME PICTURES IN A MOMENT BUT I WANT TO BRING IN JESS, WHO AT THE TIME WE RECORDED THIS INTERVIEW, SHE WAS JUST ON COMMENT, THE FRIDAY NIGHT BEFORE, AND YOU WILL SEE HER AS YOU SEE COMMENT REBROADCAST ACROSS THE FAMILY OF CHANNELS FOR KET.

JESS, ICE GOD TO HAVE OW MY TERRITORY.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

TALK ABOUT THE TIMING OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING WITH STEPHANIE AND WHAT YOU WERE WITNESSING ON THE GROUND IN JEFFERSON COUNTY AND REPORTING ON AND SEEING REPORTED ON ACROSS KENTUCKY AND THE NATION WHEN IT COMES TO CONVERSATIONS ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND THE TEACHING OF RACISM AND SEXISM OR ANYISM IN KENTUCKY OR AMERICAN CLASSROOMS.

>> SO I THINK STEPH-- I THINK STEPHANIE FOUND OUT IT WAS EARLY SUMMER JUNE OR JULY THAT SHE GOT THE SCHOLARSHIP AND AT THAT TIME , A GROUP OF PROTESTORS HAD RECENTLY DISRUPTED A SCHOOL BOARD MEETING BECAUSE THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT SO CALLED CRITICAL RACE THEORY IN JEFFERSON COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS, YOU SAW GROUPS OF PARENTS COME TO SCHOOL BOARDS ACROSS THE CAN COUNTRY WHO HAD CONCERNS ABOUT CURRICULUM THAT CENTERED BLACK AND MARGINALIZED VOICES.

AND SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT THIS MOVEMENT AROUND, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE SAY THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEY'RE #E, BUT-- THEORY BUT WHAT THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT WHEN YOU GET TO THE HEART OF IT, IS THESE D. ANTI-RACE I.T.

TRAININGS AND EVEN SOMETIMES JUST HISTORY THAT KIND OF MUDDLES THIS KIND OF MYTH THAT WE HAVE ABOUT AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.

SO PEOPLE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THOSE ISSUES WERE COMING TO SCHOOL BOARD ACROSS THE COUNTRY, DRIVEN IN LARGE PART BY , YOU KNOW, A NATIONAL MEDIA NARRATIVE, FROM THE RIGHT WING OUTLETS AND FOX NEWS, PROMOTING THIS NARRATIVE THAT SOMETHING CALLED CRITICAL RACE THEORY WAS IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM.

SO RIGHT AS THIS ALL WAS HAPPENING, STEPHANIE WAS GOING TO GERMANY AND WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT HOW, OH WOW, IT'S SO INTERESTING THAT IN THIS MOMENT IN THE UNITED STATES, WE SEEM TO BE AT REALLY HAVE HAVING A HARD TIME TALKING ABOUT THE DIFFICULT THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN OUR PAST IN CLASSROOMS.

MEANWHILE, IN GERMANY, STUDENTS ARE REQUIRED TO LEARN ABOUT ONE OF THE DARKEST CHAPTERS IN THEIR NATION'S HISTORY.

AND SO THAT CONTRAST, THAT INITIAL CONTRAST WAS A START AND WE REALLY FELT WE SHOULD EXPLORE IT.

>> AND STEPHANIE, I WANT TO GO BACK TO YOU BECAUSE THERE ARE A COUPLE OF PICTURES THAT WE WANT TO SHOW.

AND I WANT YOU TO TALK TO US ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE, RATHER SEEMINGLY IMMERSIVE THAT STUDENTS HAVE GOING TO CONCENTRATION-- NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS, DAK DA DACCHAU, AND WHERE THEY'RE PEERING IN AND LOOKING AT IT.

CAN YOU SPEAK THROUGH A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HOW THAT FELT FOR YOU AND THEN WATCH YOU THEM SEE HISTORY REALLY COME ALIVE IN A SENSE FOR THESE YOUNG EYES?

>> I MEAN I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT VERY IN PARTICULAR, THE SOUTHERN STATE IN GERMANY, IT IS ONE OF THE FEW MAYBE TOM STATES THAT MANDATE A VISIT TO A FORMER NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMP.

SO EVERY STATE IN GERMANY REQUIRES SOME KIND OF MEMORIAL VISIT, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A CONCENTRATION CAMP EXCEPT FOR THAT ONE.

AND THEY DO NOT SUGAR COAT THIS AT ALL.

THEY ARE VERY FRANK WITH THESE STUDENTS WHO WERE ABOUT 14, 15, ABOUT HIGH SCHOOL AGE IN THE U.S.

THEY WERE VERY FRANK ABOUT WHAT OCCURRED ON THE VERY GROUND THAT THEY WERE STANDING.

FOR ME, IT WAS PARTICULARLY INTERESTING BECAUSE I WENT ON YOM KIPP WHICH IS THE HOLIEST DAY IN THE JEWISH CALENDAR, AND IT IS KNOWN AS THE DAY OF ATONEMENT.

SO THAT, FOR ME, SET THE TONE.

IT WAS ALSO JUST A VERY SOMBER, RAINY DAY, AND THE KIDS WERE ACTUALLY KIND OF, YOU KNOW, BEING TEENAGERS.

DIFFICULT MATERIAL AND THEY HAD DONE THESE LESSONS ON IT AND THEY WERE PREPARED FOR WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO SEE BUT EARLY ON IN THE TRIP, I SAW SOME OF THEM KIND OF DOING WHAT TEENAGERS DO WHICH IS TALK TO EACH OTHER, GET DISTRACTED.

FULLY UNDERSTANDABLE BECAUSE IT WAS A LOT OF INITIALLY THE TOUR GUIDE TALKING.

BUT WHEN WE GOT TO THE CREMATORIUM, THERE WAS A PHOTO AND THE TOUR GUIDE EXPLAINED THAT THIS IS WHAT AMERICAN TROOPS FOUND RIGHT WHERE OUR FEET WERE WHEN THEY LIBERATED THE CAMP IN 1945.

AND IT WAS A PILE OF DEAD BODIES THAT WERE NAKED AND EMACIATED AND IT CHANGED THE TONE.

AS DISTURBING AS THE PHOTO WAS, IT MADE IT VERY REAL FOR THEM AND NOBODY SAID A WORD AS WE WALKED THROUGH THE CREMATORIUM.

I TALKED TO THE STUDENTS AND ASKED THEM HOW IT MATE THEM FEEL AND EVERY STUDENT I SPOKE WITH SAID IT WAS UNCOMFORTABLE AND UNSETTLING BUT THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THIS WAS PART OF THEIR COUNTRY'S HISTORY AND THEY FELT LIKE IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO BE THERE AND SEE IT BECAUSE SOMETHING ABOUT SEEING IT IN PERSON VERSUS LEARNING ABOUT IT IN A TEXTBOOK, I THINK, MADE IT A LITTLE MORE REAL FOR THEM.

>> AND DID IT CAUSE FROM THEM, ANY SENSE OF VITRIOL TOWARDS THEIR COUNTRY, RIGHT?

I THINK SOMETIMES WE ARE HAVING THE CONVERSATION HERE THAT IT WOULD DEMEAN OUR ALLEGIANCE IF WE ARE TAUGHT ABOUT THE DARKEST FARTS OF OUR HISTORY.

GO YOU FIND THAT TO BE THE CASE THERE?

>> IT DIDN'T SEEM TO BE THE CASE FOR THE STUDENTS.

AND YOU KNOW, I TALKED TO AN EDUCATION OFFICIAL WITH THE EDUCATION MINISTRY IN BERLIN, AND HE PUSHED BACK AGAINST THE IDEA THAT LEARNING ABOUT THEIR PAST ATROCITIES IS ANTI-GERMANY, OR SOMEHOW LIKE TARNISHING THE LEGACY OF THE COUNTRY.

HE FELT THAT THE GERMAN THING TO DO OR EVEN PATRIOTIC THING TO DO WAS ACTUALLY TO FACE THE PAST.

AND I HEARD THIS FROM OTHER OFFICIALS, TOO.

THAT THIS IDEA BEING UNCOMFORTABLE COULD ACTUALLY BE A TEACHABLE MOMENT.

THAT IF FACT, THE BASIS OF EDUCATION COULD BE FOUND IN THIS DISCOMFORT TO QUOTE ANOTHER EDUCATION OFFICIAL, HE SAID, BECAUSE THEN YOU KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM IS AND YOU CAN MOVE FORWARD FROM THERE.

SO NONE OF THE PEOPLE I SPOKE WITH SEEMED TO FIND THIS TO BE ANTI-GERMANY OR SOMEHOW BEING AGAINST ONE'S COUNTRY LEARNING ABOUT THIS.

NOW I WILL SAY THERE ARE FAR RIGHT POLITICIANS WHO DO THINK THERE IS TOO MUCH TALK ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST IN SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

THAT SENTIMENT CERTAINLY EXISTS IN GERMAN SOCIETY AND THIS PARTY, CALLED THE ALTERNATIVE FOR DISUCH DUCH LAND DEUTSCH LAND, THEY HAVE SEATS IN PARLIAMENT SO THE SENTIMENT EXISTS BUT IT'S NOT PART OF THE MAINSTREAM.

IT'S MUCH MORE FRINGE TO THINK THAT THIS IS SOMEHOW DISCREDITING THE NATION BY TALKING ABOUT THEIR PAST ATROCITIES.

>> AND JESS, I WANT YOU TO COMPARE AND CONTRAST TO WHAT YOU SEE AND WITNESS ON THE GROUND IN SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS, ET CETERA, ABOUT IT, PERHAPS BEING UNPATRIOTIC OR, YOU KNOW, DISAVOWING THE COUNTRY IN SOME WAY IF YOU TALK ABOUT THESE DEEP, DARK ELEMENTS FROM AND HISTORIC MOMENTS AND EVENTS IN OUR PAST.

>> YEAH, I THINK JUST MAKING THAT CONTRAST, THE FIRST THING THAT COMES TO MIND IS WE TALK TO THIS HISTORIAN NAMED ADAM LATS TO STUDIES THE HISTORY OF CONSERVATIVE ACTIVISM IN AMERICAN SCHOOLS.

AND THERE IS A CONTRAST IN HOW THERE SEEMS TO BE TWO WAYS OF THINKING ABOUT THE PURPOSE OF TEACHING HISTORY.

IN AMERICA AND MAYBE IN OTHER PLACES, TOO, ONE REASON THAT PEOPLE THINK THAT WE LEARN HISTORY IS KIND OF WHAT STEPHANIE WAS TALKING ABOUT, TO LEARN ABOUT THE PAST, TO LEARN WHY THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT HAPPENED HAPPENED, WHAT FORCES CAUSED THEM TO HAPPEN AND THEN MAYBE HOW THE FORCES ARE STILL IN PLAY TODAY SO WE CAN PREVENT SIMILAR ATROCITIES FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

SO THAT'S ONE WAY OF UNDERSTANDING THE PURPOSE OF HISTORY EDUCATION.

BUT THERE IS ANOTHER WAY THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF TEACHING ABOUT HISTORY.

AND THAT IS TO FORM A POSITIVE NATIONAL IDENTITY THAT TELLS YOU WHO YOU ARE, WHAT YOUR NATION, WHY YOUR NATION IS GREAT AND WHAT YOU ARE A PART OF.

AND FOR MANY PEOPLE, AND FOR MANY CONSERVATIVES, THE PURPOSE OF PUBLIC EDUCATION IS TO PRAISE THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES; TO EXEMPLIFY THE GREATNESS OF THE NATION SO THAT STUDENTS WILL BE INSPIRED TO BE GOOD CITIZENS, TO DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY IF IT COMES TO IT, AND, YEAH, TO BE PATRIOTIC.

SO AND FOR THOSE FOLKS, WHAT THIS HISTORIAN SAYS IS THAT ESSENTIALLY, HISTORY FOR SOME PEOPLE IS LIKE-- IS SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE A EULOGY.

YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT IF, YOU KNOW, DURING A FUNERAL OF IF SOMEONE STOOD UP AND SAID SOMETHING NEGATIVE OR CRITICAL ABOUT THE PERSON WHO THE EULOGY WAS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR, PEOPLE WOULD HAVE A VERY BAD REACTION TO THAT.

SO THAT'S KIND OF WHAT YOU ARE SEEING HERE, IS THAT SOME EDUCATORS WANT TO TELL STUDENTS, HEY, THE UNITED STATES IS GREAT, BUT ALSO WE HAVE DONE SOME PRETTY TERRIBLE THINGS.

AND, YOU KNOW, FOR MOST OF OUR HISTORY.

AND FOR SOME PEOPLE, THAT FEELS VERY, YOU KNOW, THAT FEELS VERY SCARY TO-- IT TELLS-- IT IS SCARY BECAUSE IT QUESTIONS WHO WE ARE.

IT FORCES US TO QUESTION WHO WE ARE AS A NATION.

AND THAT'S VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FOR SOME PEOPLE.

>> Renee: AND IS IT DRIVEN BY FEAR, BY FEAR AS WE LOOK AT OUR DEMOGRAPHICS SHIFTING IN AMERICA, WHERE, YOU KNOW, IN 242 OR 52, THERE WILL BE NO MAJORITY POPULATION; THAT, YOU KNOW, MINORITIES AND MAJORITY, THE CURRENT MAJORITY WILL BE AN EQUAL NUMBER, RIGHT?

AND THAT THERE WON'T BE A PARTICULAR MAJORITY AND A LOT OF THE BABIES BORN IN THE U.S. NOW ARE MINORITY STATUS.

SO IS IT MIXED IN WITH THE REALITY OF OUR CONTEMPORARY TIMES AND FEAR ABOUT LOSING POWER OR THAT SOMEHOW THE MARGINALIZED WILL EXERCISE SOME LEVEL OF VENGEANCE OR VINDICATION BECAUSE THEY KNOW MORE ABOUT THEIR HISTORY, THEN THEY WILL DO SOMETHING TO MAKE AMENDS FOR IT.

>> I THINK THAT'S PART OF IT.

I MEAN-- WELL, ONE OF THE RESEARCHERS THAT WE TALKED TO THINK THAT'S DEFINITELY PART OF IT, CEDRIC POWELL, A LAW PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF LOUISVILLE AND HE STUDIES CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND HE SAYS YEAH, HE THINKS THAT DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGE IS DEFINITELY DRIVING WHITE CONSERVATIVES TO BE SOMEWHAT APPREHENSIVE ABOUT THE DIRECTION OF THE COUNTRY THE WAY THAT PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES.

BUT, POINTS THAT OTHER MAIDZ AND I THINK THAT RES-- MADE AND RESONATED FROM MY OWN REPORTING, IS THAT IT'S ALSO A BACKLASH AGAINST-- YOU KNOW, AFTER 2020, LOTS OF PEOPLE WERE READING BOOKS ABOUT ANTIRACISM, A LOT MORE ATTENTION WAS PUT ON D.E.

AND I.

TRAINING.

LOTS OF DIFFERENT COMPANIES WERE COMING OUT WITH THEIR ANTI-RACIST STATEMENTS.

WE SAW THIS WHOLE WAVE OF THAT.

IT SEEMS EVERYONE WAS TALKING ABOUT RACIAL EQUITY.

NOT JUST THE PEOPLE THAT HAD ALWAYS BEEN TALKING ABOUT RACIAL EQUITY.

AND SO IN SOME SENSE, THIS APPEARS TO BE, FOR SOME PEOPLE, THIS APPEARS TO BE A BACKLASH TO THAT KIND OF PUSH TOWARDS CHANGE.

SO SOME PEOPLE SEE THIS AS A REACTION, SPECIFICALLY TO THE RACIAL JUSTICE MOVEMENT OF 2020.

>> STEPHANIE.

I DO WANT TO ASK YOU, ANY TIME YOU ARE DOING THESE MAG ANY OF VENT-- MAGNIFICENT UNFLINCHING EXAMINATIONS OF HISTORY OR ANY TOPIC IN-DEPTH, YOU ALWAYS LEAVE THINGS ON THE CUTTING ROOM FLOOR.

THAT'S OLD SCHOOL.

I USED TO BE IN PUBLIC RADIO AND WE USED, YOU KNOW,RAZOR BLADES AND-- AND TYPE TO STITCH IT BACK TOGETHER BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

SO HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHAT TO KEEP, WHO TO KEEP, WHOSE VOICES NEED TO BE HEARD AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME AND THE CONTEXT IN WHICH YOU ARE TRYING TO PRESENT THIS MATERIAL OBJECTIVELY?

>> I MEAN THIS IS AN ETERNAL STRUGGLE FOR MOST JOURNALISTS.

I HAD SOME INTERVIEWS THAT I WASN'T EVEN ABLE TO INCLUDE IN THE DOCUMENTARY BECAUSE WE DID HAVE TO KEEP IT REALLY FOCUSED.

AND I THINK, IN PARTICULAR, FOR ME, ON THE GERMANY SIDE, YOU KNOW, THE HOLOCAUST IS NOT GERMANY'S ONLY PAST ATROCITY.

THE BERLIN CONFERENCE HAPPENED IN GERMANY.

THIS WAS IN THE LATE 1800s WHERE EUROPEAN LEADERS AND AMERICAN LEADERS CAME TO THE TABLE TO DIVIDE THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA, TO COLONIZE IT.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT REQUIRED NECESSARILY CURRICULUM IN SCHOOLS AND AS WIDELY TALKED ABOUT.

BUT I THINK FOR MANY PEOPLE, WHAT STANDS IN THEIR MIND WHEN THEY THINK OF GERMANY'S PAST, THEY DO THINK OF THE HOLOCAUST SO WE HAD TO KEEP THINGS VERY FOCUSED.

AND WE DID ALSO DO IT, I THINK, FROM MORE OF AN AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE THAN FROM MAYBE WHAT A GERMANY-- I THINK IF A GERMAN PRODUCED THIS DOCUMENTARY, IT WOULD PROBABLY LOOK VERY DIFFERENTLY.

AND AGAIN ON THE GERMANY SIDE, LIKE THERE ARE CRITICISMS OF THE CURRICULUM ITSELF THAT WE WEREN'T ABLE TO GO INTO AS DEEPLY AS, YOU KNOW, PERHAPS I WANTED TO BECAUSE I HAD DONE THESE INTERVIEWS, I HAD SPENT TWO MONTHS IN GERMANY DOING THIS BUT I THINK WE HAD TO KEEP ASKING OURSELVES, THIS IS NOT A PERFECT COMPARISON AND WEEP KNEW THAT.

THIS IS AN APPLES TO ORANGES COMPARISON.

AND SO WHAT PARTS OF THIS WILL BE ILLUMINATING TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN AMERICA INSTEAD OF GOING DOWN WHAT-- HONESTLY, JUST THE COLONIAL PAST OF GERMANY, THAT COULD BE AND PROBABLY SHOULD BE ITS OWN DOCUMENTARY ON ITS OWN RIGHT BECAUSE THEY ALSO HAD RACIAL JUSTICE MOVEMENT IN 2020 AND PEOPLE WERE ASKING FOR MORE FOCUS ON THE ROLE THAT GERMANY PLAYED IN COLONIZING AFRICA.

SO I MEAN THAT'S ALWAYS SUCH A HARD THING, RIGHT?

WE WISH WE HAD MORE TIME TO GIVE ALL OF THESE DETAILS THAT WE FOUND IN OUR REPORTING, BUT YEAH, WE HAD TO KEEP IT REALLY FOCUSED AND LIKE I SAID, I THINK WE WERE LOOKING AT IT FROM HOW DOES THIS SIDE BY SIDE EXAMINATION, WHAT DOES IT TELL US ABOUT WHAT WE ARE SEEING HAPPENING HERE IN KENTUCKY.

>> AND I WANT TO COME TO YOU, JESS, AND ASK YOU ABOUT HOW AND WHERE THE 1619 NEW YORK TIMES PROJECT BY CREATOR NICOLE HANNAH JONES THAT MANY PEOPLE KNOW OF HER AND KNOW OF THE 1619 PROJECT THAT HAS COME UNDER A LOT OF FIRE EVEN THOUGH IT HAS BEEN HIGHLY CELEBRATED AND REGARDED AND DECORATED AS BEING THIS REALLY GROUND GROUNDBREAKING AND HOLISTIC LOOK AT AMERICA AND THE SYSTEMIC RACISM THAT IS PART OF OUR HISTORY.

HOW DID THAT INFORM HOW YOU PERCEIVED AND WENT ABOUT THIS PROJECT.

DID YOU ACTUALLY SPEAK WITH HER OR LISTEN TO PREVIOUS INTERVIEWS TO HELP KIND OF GUIDE WHERE YOUR WORK MIGHT TAKE YOU?

>> YEAH, WELL, WE DID ACTUALLY CALL UP NICOLE HANNAH JONES AND SCHEDULE AN INTERVIEW WITH HER AND THAT WAS-- SHE IS THE CREATOR OF THE 1619 PROJECT AND THAT WAS VERY EXCITING.

BUT WE FELTED THAT WAS IMPORTANT BECAUSE SHE, HERSELF, SEEMS TO FIND HERSELF AT THE CENTER OF THE CONTROVERSY LIKE THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE C.R.T.

PANIC THAT HAS SWEPT THE NATION.

IN MANY ANTI-C.R.T.

BILLS, THEY SPECIFICALLY TARGET THE 1619 PROJECT, WHICH IS A SERIES OF ESSAYS AND A PODCAST THAT ESSENTIALLY CLAIMS THAT THE FOUNDING OF AMERICA CAN BE TRACED BACK TO NOT TO 1776 BUT 1619, WHICH IS THE YEAR THAT THE FIRST SHIP OF ENSLAVED AFRICAN PEOPLE ARRIVED IN THE BRITISH COLONIES HERE.

>> AND SO THAT PROJECT ITSELF HAD A LOT OF IMPACT.

IT CAME OUT IN 2019.

IT WAS REFERRED BACK TO A LOT DURING THE PROTESTS OF 2020.

AND IT ALSO WAS ON THE LIPS OF A LOT OF HIGH PROFILE CONSERVATIVES, DONALD TRUMP, WHEN HE WAS CAMPAIGNING IN 2020, OFTEN WOULD RAIL AGAINST THE 1619 PROJECT AS UNAMERICAN.

MITCH McCONNELL HAS HAS ALSO LAMBASTED THE 1619 PROJECT AND HAS URGED THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION NOT TO PROMOTE ITS USE IN THE CLASSROOM.

AND SO BECAUSE SHE KEPT COMING UP AGAIN AND AGAIN, WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO SPEAK WITH HER FOR THE PROJECT.

AND SHE HAD A LOT OF JUST REALLY INTERESTING THINGS TO SAY ABOUT IT.

>> Renee: HOW DID THAT CONVERSATION INFLUENCE YOU?

>> WELL, I THINK HER SHE HAD AN INTERESTING TAKE ON THE COMPARISON WE WERE MAKING.

SHE ACKNOWLEDGES, AS WE DO, THAT IT IS NO THE AN APPLES TO APPLES COMPARISON BUT WHAT WAS INTERESTING IN WHAT SHE SAID, THE REASON IT IS NOT APPLES TO APPLES IS BECAUSE NAZI GERMANY WAS A SMALL SECTION OF TIME, IT WAS A TERRIBLE SECTION OF TIME IN GERMAN HISTORY BUT IT WAS A RELATIVELY SMALL PERIOD.

AND SO YOU HAVE THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF GERMANIC HISTORY TO BE PROUD OF AND HARKEN BACK TO.

IN THE UNITED STATES, IF YOU WERE TO SET ASIDE THE PART OF HISTORY IN WHICH BLACK PEOPLE WERE ENSLAVED, IN WHICH NATIVE PEOPLE WERE BEING, YOU KNOW, FORCED FROM THEIR LAND AND KILLED.

THAT'S THE MAJORITY OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

SO YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THAT FROM AMERICAN HISTORY AND TAKE IT AND LOOK AT IT AND SET IT ASIDE AND SAY THIS SECTION OF HISTORY, I MEAN IT'S SO DEEPLY INGRAINED THAT WE HAVE TO CONFRONT THE-- WHEN WE LEARN ABOUT OUR FOUNDING, WE HAVE TO ALSO CONFRONT THE COMPLEXITY AND THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR SOME PEOPLE.

BUT I THINK JUST IN THE FACT THAT RACISM IS SO ENGRAIJED INTO OUR HISTORY-- INGRAINED INTO OUR HISTORY THAT WE CAN'T LOOK AT IT AS ONE PERIOD IN TIME, YOU KNOW, THAT, ITSELF, IS REVEALING ABOUT YOU KNOW, THE STRUCTURE OF THE UNITED STATES AND HOW IT CAME TO BE.

>> Renee: AND FOR THOSE THAT YOU TALKED TO, JESS, SCHOLARS, THOSE IN ACADEMIA, WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT THE NEED, THE NECESSITY OF GETTING THE FULL STORY OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE, DARK, SORDID, DEEP, HUNDREDS OF CENTURIES, HUNDREDS OF YEARS, CENTURIES, DO THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES UNPATRIOT.

DO UNPATRIOTIC.

DO THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE NOT JUST CRITICIZERS OF THE NATION BUT THEY LOVE THE NATION?

DO THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES PATRIOTS?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

I DON'T THINK THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES AS PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE THE UNITED STATES.

I THINK-- YOU KNOW, I THINK THE MOST INTERESTING PEOPLE TO HEAR HONESTLY IN THIS WHOLE SERIES, THE MOST INTERESTING PEOPLE TO HEAR FROM WERE STUDENTS.

BECAUSE STUDENTS REALLY-- AND TEACHERS AS WELL, BUT STUDENTS, THEY ARE INTERESTED IN THE ENTIRE STORY OF AMERICA.

AND AS ONE STUDENT SAID, YOU CAN'T JUST LEARN ABOUT THE GOOD WITHOUT KNOWING ABOUT THE BAD.

YOU HAVE TO KNOW ABOUT EVERYTHING.

AND IT DOESN'T MAKE STUDENTS LIKE THE UNITED STATES LESS.

IT JUST-- AS ONE STUDENT PUT IT, HE IS A BLACK STUDENT AND HE WAS NEVER VERY ENGAGED IN HIS EDUCATION UNTIL HE TOOK A CLASS THAT WAS CALLED HISTORICAL BLACK CONSCIOUSNESS.

AND IT WAS THE FIRST CLASS WHERE HE FELT LIKE HE SAW HIMSELF AND HIS STORY AND HIS ANCESTORS REPRESENTED IN THE CLASSROOM.

AND THAT CLASS KEPT HIM COMING TO SCHOOL AT A SCHOOL WHERE ATTENDANCE WAS REALLY AN ISSUE BECAUSE IT'S A SCHOOL FOR KIDS WHO HAVE STRUGGLED IN K-12 SETTINGS.

SO AND YOU KNOW, THAT CLASS THEY WERE LEARNING ABOUT ROBERT SMALLS WHO WAS AN ENSLAVED PERSON IN SOUTH CAROLINA WHO ENDED UP STEALING A CONFEDERATE SHIP AND SAILING IT NORTH TO THE UNION.

AND SO THEY WERE VERY INSPIRED BY THAT LESSON.

BUT IN ORDER TO LEARN ABOUT ROBERT SMALLS, THE CLASS HAD TO LEARN ABOUT SLAVERY AND WHY SOMEONE WOULD DO THAT.

SO YOU HAVE TO LEARN THE GOOD WITH THE BAD TO UNDERSTAND THE GREATNESS OF AMERICA.

>> Renee: AND STEPHANIE, I'LL GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD.

IS THAT HOW STUDENTS, GERMAN STUDENTS FEEL ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCE AS WELL?

>> YEAH, I MEAN I THINK-- I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF CONVERSATIONS THEY HAVE WITH WHEN THEY GO HOME, OF COURSE.

I ONLY KNOW WHAT THEY TOLD ME WHEN THEY WERE THERE, BUT THEY REPEATEDLY SAID THIS IS A PART OF OUR HISTORY AS GERMANS AND WE NEED TO LEARN ABOUT IT.

>> Renee: THANK YOU SO MUCH STEPHANIE AND JESS.

I THINK WE HAVE SOME OFF LINE CONVERSATIONS TO HAVE.

AS WELL.

BUT THIS ONLINE CONVERSATION HAS INSPIRED ME TO REALLY WANT TO GO BACK AND REVIEW YOUR WORK AND HAVE MORE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HOW WE CAN SEE EACH OTHER BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, I THINK THAT'S WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT IN LARGE MEASURE.

THANK YOU FOR HELPING US DO THAT.

I APPRECIATE YOUR WORK AS JOURNALISTS AND AS A HUMAN BEING.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING THIS EDITION OF CONNECTIONS.

I HOPE WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN SOON.

YOU CAN FOLLOW ME ON FACEBOOK, TWITTER AND LISTEN TO OUR PODCAST AS WELL.