- There is something in the air.

People want justice for the Palestinians.

People want this war and this conflict to end.

People want the occupation to end because it's good for Israel and it's good for the Palestinians.

(gentle music) (gentle music ends) - Hello and welcome to "GZERO World."

I'm Ian Bremmer and today I'm talking with Riyad Mansour, the third Palestinian ambassador to the United Nations.

Important to note that Mansour was appointed to his role by Mahmoud Abbas, head of the Palestinian Authority, which governs the West Bank in partnership with Israel but has no jurisdiction, for now at least, over Gaza.

In nearly nine months, around 40,000 Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis have died, according to the Israeli Army and the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry, though exact numbers are impossible to verify.

We'll dig into all of that and more in our interview.

But first, a word from the folks who help us keep the lights on.

- [Announcer 1] Funding for "GZERO World" is provided by our lead sponsor, Prologis.

- [Announcer 2] Every day all over the world, Prologis helps businesses of all sizes lower their carbon footprint and scale their supply chains with a portfolio of logistics and real estate and an end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today.

Learn more at prologis.com.

- [Announcer 1] And by Cox Enterprises is proud to support GZERO.

Cox is working to create an impact in areas like sustainable agriculture, clean tech, healthcare, and more.

Cox, a family of businesses.

Additional funding provided by Jerre and Mary Joy Stead, Carnegie Corporation of New York, and... (bright music) (soft tense music) - What is standing in the way of ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas War?

In nearly nine months, at least 38,000 Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis have died, at least according to the Israeli Army and the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry.

The exact number's impossible to verify.

But according to the United Nations, 60% of Gazan homes and over 80% of commercial buildings and schools are damaged or destroyed, and the United Nations warns that over a million Gazans could face the highest levels of starvation by mid-July if the fighting doesn't end immediately.

War always reserves its harshest punishment for the most vulnerable, with UNICEF reporting that 9 out of every 10 Gazan children lack the nutrition needed for proper growth.

(man speaks in foreign language) (child speaks in foreign language) (man speaks in foreign language) (child speaks in foreign language) - [Ian] The hopelessness in that young child's eyes should be enough to end the war today.

The average Gazan desperate for a ceasefire and increasingly, so too is the average Israeli.

(protesters shouting) In recent days, thousands have flooded the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv to demand a pause in hostilities and the immediate return of the Israeli hostages still held by Hamas.

They're also demanding something else.

- We have to replace this evil government.

This is our time.

There are 120 hostages still in Gaza.

We have to replace the government, this is our only way to get them back and to get Israel back.

- [Ian] Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Bibi Netanyahu's grip on power is slipping and his governing coalition is falling apart.

Last month, Israeli centrist Benny Gantz resigned from Bibi's war cabinet shortly after a military spokesman refuted Netanyahu's longstanding vow to eradicate Hamas at any cost.

- [Translator] Hamas is an idea.

Hamas is a party and it is implanted in people's hearts.

Whoever thinks that we can demolish Hamas is wrong.

- As the moderates in the government abandon ship, Netanyahu will have no choice but to bow to the far right hard-liners in his coalition if he wants to stay in power, and you can bet your bottom shekel that the last thing these folks want is a ceasefire.

But it's not just Netanyahu who is keeping this war going.

Hamas, which started the war and which has used Palestinians as human shields, has stood in the way of any realistic peace deal.

In late May, President Biden unveiled a ceasefire proposal that he said had the support of the Israeli government and the global community.

Here's U.S. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken speaking to Hamas's refusal of that deal while in Doha last month.

- A deal was on the table that was virtually identical to a proposal that Hamas put forward on May the 6th.

And Hamas could have answered with a single word, yes.

Instead, Hamas waited nearly two weeks and then proposed more changes, a number of which go beyond positions it had previously taken and accepted.

- Getting back to my initial question, it's not so much what is standing in the way of a ceasefire, but who?

And the answer is the people in charge.

Until that changes, the fighting and the suffering will continue.

Here to talk about how to end the suffering is the man who represents the Palestinian people at the United Nations.

Here's my conversation with Riyad Mansour.

Ambassador Riyad Mansour, thanks so much for joining us today.

- I'm happy that you have me.

- So I want to first introduce you a little bit to our audience as not only the representative of the Palestinian Authority here in the United Nations, but also as someone who grew up here in the United States.

A little bit on your background I think would be great.

- I am officially the representative of the State of Palestine at the UN.

I am the ambassador of the State of Palestine to the United Nations.

I have been in this post for a relatively long time and I did my studies in the United States, in Ohio.

My father was a steelworker in Youngstown, Ohio.

He was a refugee as well, so I went through a lot and I learned a lot.

And I was influenced by, what I can say, maybe the positive things in this environment and I tried to stay away from the things that are not positive.

- Now, you pointed out that you're a representative of the Palestinian state, and the reason I didn't introduce you that way, of course, is because while the United States says that they want a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict, they have not yet recognized a Palestinian state in a way that some countries around the world have, and increasingly over the last few weeks.

Are we closer or farther away from a two-state solution today than we were on October 6th?

- After what happened in October 7th and the huge crime against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip, particularly, in which a large number of children and women have been killed, 70% of the almost 38,000 killed so far and the 80,000 injured- - In Gaza.

- In Gaza.

And the total destruction of the Gaza Strip, to go back to the situation that existed before October 7, it's crazy, it doesn't make sense.

What makes sense is to listen to this massive shift in the global picture in the United States of America.

Also among the streets of all capitals, hundreds of millions of people are asking for the end of the genocide, the end of the exterminations of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, and to end the occupation and to allow for the two-state solution.

So therefore, I think maybe out of this tragedy and the ashes of the war that people to come to their senses and a forceful role by the U.S. administration to move forward, say enough is enough, let's implement the two-state solution.

- I accept that there is more international interest, prioritization, pressure, and resource to bring the outcome that you are suggesting.

I also see, of course, greater radicalization on the ground among the Israeli people since October 7th and among the Palestinian people since the war following it.

And I'm just wondering which of those becomes more important in either facilitating or preventing the outcome you're talking about.

- I believe that it does not make sense for the Israeli leaders to think that the issue of Palestine is a security issue.

And if you believe that way, then you think that you can eliminate it by power, by more army, by more tanks, more weapons.

They tried that over the years.

It did not accomplish the objective that they want.

They couldn't negate the existence of the Palestinian people nor their right to self-determination and to statehood.

What was not tried is to implement the global consensus on the two-state solution.

Let's try it, let's end the occupation.

Let us have two states living in peace and harmony next to each other to open new chapters of the relationship between the two people, which is different than the relationship of resentment and negations of the other and legislating in the Knesset that only Jews have the right to exercise self-determination between the river and the sea, which means that the Palestinian people do not exist.

- You fully recognize the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign state?

- We did and, in fact, late Chairman Arafat signed on that in front of the White House during the time of President Bill Clinton.

- And I'm saying that because I want to make sure the audience understands that you represent the Palestinian Authority and that you have no connection with Authority with Hamas in Gaza.

- I represent the State of Palestine at the United Nations.

- Of which Hamas plays no role?

- When I say I represent the State of Palestine, the State of Palestine, many things and everything, all the Palestinian people at the United Nations.

So I defend the rights of all of the Palestinian people at the United Nations.

I do not defend the narrow platform or rights of a political party.

This is the same thing my colleague Linda Greenfield, who is the ambassador representative of the United States at the United Nations.

She does not represent a group or a party.

She represents the United States of America.

I'm similar to her in representing the State of Palestine.

- I appreciate that and I just want to make sure I give you the opportunity, because you're here talking as a representative of the Palestinians, the Palestinian people, and you are discussing the context, the background, why we're in the situation we are right now.

I want to make sure the audience understands that you in no way support or align yourself with the terrorist activities on October 7th.

You wholeheartedly condemn those.

- Listen, I said in the Security Council many times and I challenged the Israeli ambassador to say what I say.

I said I condemned the killing of innocent people regardless of their religion, ethnicity, or national belonging.

Innocent people, innocent civilians should not be exposed to any harm.

This is international law.

Can you say the same thing that I am saying?

He never said that.

- And the hostages that have been taken should be released?

As the Secretary General of the UN has called for many, many times, you would certainly support that?

- Not only that but we legislated resolutions in the Security Council in the General Assembly calling for that, including the last resolution in which it calls not only for the release of the hostages but also the release of Palestinian prisoners.

- So talk about any influence you feel like your government has over what Hamas does and does not do with the occupation of Gaza.

- Well, I think that the United States is very actively involved in negotiating with Hamas through Qatar and Egypt, and Israel is negotiating with them through Qatar and Egypt and, you know, that they reach some progress.

They're still working on other issues.

So those people of influence are engaged in this kind of process.

Now for us, internally, we need to put our house in order with all political groups.

Once upon a time, Hamas won the election in the year 2006.

And in a democratic way.

If a political party, regardless of whether you like them or not, win an election, then they're entitled to run the government of that state and we will see whether the people will be happy with them or not.

- When you talk to the Gulf states, when you talk to the Americans, when you talk to those that are trying to bring about a ceasefire, one of the few things they agree on is that Hamas can play no role in the governance of Gaza, in part because it would be an unacceptable security risk for the Israelis and in part because they see Hamas as a terrorist organization.

So in that regard, it would be considered very different, right?

I mean, when you're fighting a war that is specifically not about the destruction of the Palestinian people but is specifically about the destruction of that terrorist organization that, again, won a democratic election, you're absolutely right about that, but it certainly makes the international community feel very differently about the outcome.

- May I ask you a question?

- Sure.

- If that is the characterization as you describe it, then why are they negotiating with them through intermediaries?

Why would they in the last resolution submitted by the United States in the Security Council appealing to Hamas, okay?

So, and also- - You're saying that you can't negotiate with a terrorist organization?

It's happened many, many times historically.

- You can characterize anyone as you wish.

Once upon a time, and in fact, until this moment as we speak, in spite of the fact that Yasser Arafat and Rabin signed the Oslo Agreement in front of the White House in the presence of President Bill Clinton, do you know that the PLO, which is the major grouping of political forces that leads the Palestinian state and leads the Palestinian Authority, is considered by the Congress as a terrorist organization?

Does that make sense?

- I'm not trying to make a fixed point of international law.

We're trying to talk about what the path of peace and progress is.

When you mention someone like Yasser Arafat, you were talking about people whose political characterizations were historical and an effort to bring them in to facilitate peace.

Here, we're talking everyone that is trying to facilitate a two-state solution is trying to move beyond Hamas and work with a Palestinian Liberation Organization.

- Listen, you're looking at the representative of the State of Palestine.

- I know.

Absolutely.

- I am man who committed all of my life, at least the last 20 years of it if not longer, for peace.

I am at the United Nations.

We are in the business of peace, not in the business of war.

The first sentence in the Charter of the United Nations, it says that we the people want to save the future generations from the scourge of war by resolving conflicts through peace.

I am committed to peace.

But ask the other side, are they committed to peace?

If they keep labeling us the way they do to deny our existence and our national rights, how could we have peace?

You have peace by accepting me because I'm accepting you.

Let us work in ending the occupation and have a peace treaty.

- I'm not suggesting that your Palestinian Authority is not committed to peace, but I am suggesting that when you're criticizing the Israeli government as wanting to continue a war, we also recognize that Hamas has shown very little interest in ending the war.

- Listen, you judge us, you judge me by my conducts at the United Nations and you judge the other side and their representatives by their conduct at the United Nations.

And the jury is our colleagues, ambassadors of other states.

When we have 149 states recognizing the State of Palestine and the representative of the State of Israel cursing everyone, accusing them of being anti-Jewish and anti-Semitic, what should you believe?

My rhetoric or his rhetoric or the judgment of the jury of our colleagues who are from all corners of the globe?

Isn't it enough for people to see, for example, in hundreds of universities in the United States led by elite schools such as Columbia, demonstrating, Jewish students, Palestinian students, Arab students, Muslim students, Black students, Brown students, all kind of students for justice.

This is a very elitist school in which if you have a record you might jeopardize your job as a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, but yet they are committed to justice to the point that they are willing to do that.

Isn't there something different in the air?

Shouldn't we be listening to them?

Shouldn't we believe that they are doing that because they're genuinely committed to the principles of democracy and justice, and therefore to change our conduct and views based on these new realities instead of being fixated in the views of realities of the past?

- What do you think needs to happen to move from where we are right now to a period where we can look at progress?

Because we have heard the Americans now, we've heard the Americans talking for months about a deal that is this close to being signed, one that they said that the Israelis supported and Hamas refused and walked away.

Now we have the Israeli prime minister saying he's changing the terms of what he's accepting the deal.

How do you get there?

- I think that the United States of America, with its massive influence over Israel and massive influence over states in the Middle East, is capable of playing an honest broker.

They need to be decisive, they need to be fair, and they need to listen to the sentiment of the American people in campuses, universities, in the streets, and to listen to the great majority position of almost everyone at the United Nations.

Most of them are friends of the United States of America.

They're not making this position because the Palestinian delegation is magicians and they are playing with their minds and making them vote the way they do in favor of justice for the Palestinian people.

There is something in the air.

People want justice for the Palestinians.

People want this war and this conflict to end.

People want the occupation to end because it's good for Israel and it's good for the Palestinians.

This is what's happening, we need courageous, firm, and wise men to say this is the time that peace is going to happen.

- One of my concerns is that you have organizations on the far right in Israel that are not interested in having Palestinians in Gaza have humanitarian aid, they're interested in having them leave so that they can occupy that territory.

You have Hamas that's not interested in making life easier in Gaza.

They want the Israelis to be responsible for more humanitarian atrocities and more war crimes because it makes Hamas stronger.

When you have the two principals that are adversaries that benefit politically from more crimes and more crisis, doesn't it make it a lot harder to resolve?

- That is dangerous, because in all those criminals in the past, including the Holocaust, they gave justification for their evil action.

And if we descend to the logic of the extremists, those cruel anti-humanitarians.

- On both sides of the conflict.

- On both and any side, okay?

Then you will not be focusing on what needs to be done and solutions and humanitarian projects, we will be focusing on the political and ideological justification of those criminals and try really to give them leeway to continue doing what they're doing.

There should not be leeways to justice for these crimes that we said in the past never again.

But when we say never again, never again by anyone.

No one has a special way of committing it against other.

Never again against anyone, regardless of who the anyone is.

We should not allow genocide to take place against any people or any group in any place under the sun, and to go after those who are committing these crimes regardless of their background and their history.

- Is it possible that when we talk about reconstruction, that some of the Palestinians in Gaza actually would be safer for a period of six months, a year, moved into camps that can be made secure in Egypt while reconstruction is going on?

Is that a plausible scenario or is that a non-starter from your perspective?

- We want our people to stay in our homeland.

We lived the first Nakba.

It was horrific.

My parents and my relatives used to tell me they lived in valleys and caves before UNRWA came to give tents and to give dwellings and to give this and to start for people to live their new life in the new places and the new environment.

We want to live in our own country in dignity and as proud people, so we don't want to leave.

There are a number of people that have left who have resources, money, and maybe others, if they have the chance to leave, they might leave.

But 2.3 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, all of them cannot be left unless there is a plan either to kill them or to get them out of that area in order to cleanse the historic land of Palestine from the Palestinian people.

And that is an evil genocide thinking.

And there are those in Israel who think that way and they are in government.

We face these realities.

But yet in the same time, we do not give up and say that that is our future and therefore let's look for a place to run away from this situation.

We're optimistic, we have hope, and we want to rebuild our life.

We want to live in our country like other people.

People are proud of their countries and our people are resilient.

If we have peace and we live in our country, we could be so creative that we would be one of the most successful states in the Middle East.

- Riyad Mansour, thanks so much for joining us today.

- You're very welcome.

(bright music) - That's our show this week.

Come back next week and if you like what you've seen or even if you don't but you're like, "Hey, I'd love to see peace in the Middle East," take a moment to check us out at gzeromedia.com.

(bright music) (bright music continues) (bright music continues) (bright music ends) (gentle music) - [Announcer 1] Funding for "GZERO World" is provided by our lead sponsor, Prologis.

- [Announcer 2] Every day all over the world, Prologis helps businesses of all sizes lower their carbon footprint and scale their supply chains with a portfolio of logistics and real estate and an end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today.

Learn more at prologis.com.

- [Announcer 1] And by Cox Enterprises is proud to support GZERO.

Cox is working to create an impact in areas like sustainable agriculture, clean tech, healthcare, and more.

Cox, a family of businesses.

Additional funding provided by Jerre and Mary Joy Stead, Carnegie Corporation of New York, and... (bright music) (bright music)