>> Kentucky is making some serious gains and higher education.

The head of the post-secondary education system says the state's moving in the right direction and cautions against policies that could stop or even reverse progress.

A conversation with Doctor Aaron Thompson, president of the Kentucky Council on Post-secondary education.

Now on connections.

♪ ♪ ♪ Thank you so much for joining me today on connections.

I'm Renee Shaw.

Many Kentuckians once adopted state slogan, Education pays.

Well, today's gas breaks down the lifetime.

Earnings are higher.

Education can deliver to the bank accounts of those who seek a post-secondary education, credential or degree doctor.

Aaron Thompson joins me to discuss the value of college.

Why Kentuckians are leaving 10's of millions of dollars on the table to finance college and his take on a bill.

This legislative session targeting diversity, equity and inclusion at state colleges and universities.

Doctor Thompson, good to see you as always.

>> Good to see you, Renee.

I love being on your show.

Yeah.

Thank you for about a well.

It's a pleasure to have you here.

A lot of things to talk about, but I do want to give you a shout out for your alma mater, acknowledging you as it should and giving you an honorary.

You've earned an honorary doctorate may bestowed upon that to you recently.

So congratulations.

>> Thank you.

I mean, this one is special, right?

Yeah, I've got I've got a few of them not to brag point, but I do.

But when your alma mater and the place said you spent so many years working, as you all know, is a professor there and straighter there.

I love my home, serves our region.

And when they did, it was just it was special.

Did you know that was coming?

Had not told toward they cannot told was coming.

>> And the and it was a little bit of a surprise.

The one that made me feel good that I KET before I got on stage.

>> not much before.

Yeah.

Well, those are always the best want to say when your alma mater.

>> Does something for you.

And that's one of the highest honor.

Certain line.

Well, let's talk about post-secondary ahead, which is your jam?

Where are we in terms of our goals?

We've had some good news recently when it comes to degree attainment.

We're kind of leading the nation.

We'll talk more about that.

But where are we in terms of the goal of having 60% of Kentucky citizens have some type of higher education, credential or degree by the year 2030.

>> Well, thank you for that question.

We may let me put it in perspective.

As you all know, when I came into this role, we set that attainment percentage and that the team and percentage just one picked out the hair, the 60% of our citizens having a post-secondary credential.

That matters by Twenty-thirty came because we Lankan this is look at the data, the most direct correlation between a good economy is a highly educated workforce and hope the most direct correlation to how educated workforce is a well FOX inherit system.

I'm proud to say we're at 55%.

We have steadily increased.

We are only 5 percentage points away from our goals in 2024. and we have constantly done this even in light of of some enrollment decrease in the past.

We really focused on student success in love to talk to Yeah, that is where goal?

Well, and let's talk about some of those higher again.

So there was some data released from the National Student Clearinghouse.

>> Which you can tell us how credible that is.

That indicates the Kentucky had the highest fall to fall enrollment gains in the nation this year to break all those big words down for actual student clearinghouse very credible yet is that it is that group that can look across all states, compare apples to apples, everything that's going on.

They it in state and now the state.

>> Enrollment and so happy to say Kentucky.

Let me start off by saying that even before the Rio that this latest, they that we were the first state to actually bounce back in the Roman from COVID this president.

So, yes, the 2 shuns our office, all of us work together in a very purposeful way actually before COVID to give us here.

But we just came out.

We were leading number one state in the nation about over a percentage point.

So this is good news to her highest enrollment game in the nation's.

So the things that we put in place policies, process and actions actually has worked.

And I should say this is 2 ways to look at enrollment.

It's not just purely recruiting, Mike and talk a little bit things.

We have to build their wealth.

But it's also retaining students having them there till they graduate.

So a Roman consist of a good retention completion plan and a good recruitment plan.

But the best way to get a good recruitment plan does have a strong student success, retention and completion plan.

And so that's what we have to put in our records.

So, yes, we're we're leaving the nation.

I'm proud of that.

>> You often speak about being a first generation high school and college graduate, right?

And the importance and the value of higher education.

And during this budget cycle that the state lawmakers are in now, how are you convincing some who may need to be convinced of the value of higher education beyond with the national Student Clearinghouse may report.

>> Absolutely.

And that's important for us to talk about his value proposition.

You know my background, I was born in Clay County, Kentuckyian, a log cabin in the holler to deliver coal miner father and a mother, an 8th grade education.

Education is our route to not only.

Get out of poverty, it's around to create a better health system.

That's everything that we can become as a person.

Education is the route to get there.

So, you know, we're going to focus heavily on low-income as we have and proud to say.

We've done a really good job in that area.

As far as success goes, we've designed our performance funding system around that.

And as you well know, even in this latest edition that has to be qualified by the General Assembly were even increasing the amount but campuses will get when they educate a low-income student.

So the idea that we need to be focusing on good policies and good process and get legislation that helps us all do what we need to do to ward.

That is crucial.

If you don't educate our underrepresented populations are low-income or adult learners.

All of those to a degree that needs to be done.

We're never going to get the timing, right?

We need first of all, secondarily, we won't have a longer standing thriving economy as we do now.

So we're working with the General Assembly of the budget came out yesterday.

I'm proud to see, but they really did put dollars in there for higher education.

And we have a day that to show that what we're doing is very successful and we want to KET being number one R I should have said earlier.

We're number 2 incompletions in the nation.

So we're not just number one in enrollment.

Remember 2 incompletions that came through a systematic approach.

All of us coming together doing what our campuses need to do because there are ways on the ground to do that.

But the General Assembly and the governor's office where an important part in that to do healthy bills to bums, such as give us the budget that helps us to really focus strategically what the state needs.

>> So for students out there who say, you know, I can get a job wherever starting out, making 20 bucks an hour monetize the value of a higher education experience, whether a credential or degree what are the lifetime earnings for those who get those items and those who do not.

>> As you all know, can take it was the first state to do the kind of return on investment report that we've done.

We look at every student graduating from high school, follow them 8 years later, secret or at what are they actually went to college, got some college, whether he didn't, whether you've got to grab baccalaureate degree, a credential in our community college of any time we looked at the outcomes.

This is what we found.

If you actually get a baccalaureate degree, for example, in Kentucky, you're going make about 1.4 million dollars more than you do if you're in high school.

The problem with just getting getting a high school diploma.

Some people may get a job that sustainable most are not be turned right?

They do.

And then later on, even if we get a job, the sustainable, they're going to be the higher Ed credential to move up.

So what we see is truly the value of post-secondary education, not only the mountain, more money you make.

We also see that are on SNAP benefits less.

You're wrong.

Made okay.

Less.

You actually have a healthier lifestyle actually are happier.

We found that out.

So the value to a post-secondary credential once again, that happy four-year degree could be a community college certificate or a two-year degree is actually insurmountable.

And other interesting thing about this return on investment report.

We looked at things like the amount of money they borrow the kind of ways that we supported them in college.

And what we found out is for every dollar that the state puts in the state gets a $67 return on investment for that person.

So you will not find a better deal in the country.

I'm also proud to say people talk about student debt going up.

Kentucky were also a state that just reduce student debt by student yeah, $4500 per year.

So we're looking at holistically and I'll give a campus credit for all the things they've done and give the state credit for the amount of money they put into student made right.

>> When it comes to what a student pays to go to a higher institution.

Sometimes that depends on how much state support that institution is been given from the Kentucky General Assembly in this case.

We just you mentioned earlier about the cpe priorities for this budget cycle.

And you said look pretty good.

Give us some specifics on what you want and what you see being presented so far and maybe because we've got a long time ago before April, the 15th, as you know, doctor Dot.

>> Yeah, we do.

And we hope to get we hope the Senate gives us little more it's important that we think about this as an investment free things.

I will say quickly along those lines.

What we know is that, you know, is 2 ways we can to get my the there are some other ways that are ancillary.

You do have to plan for P. You do have grants of some sort.

But this tuition and its state support.

And we've kept tuition down since I've been in this role.

We've kept tuition down to historic lows.

So we don't feel like parents and family members and students can afford to pay more tuition.

So this is where the state we hope will invest in us and they have in the previous budget cycles through the performance funding model.

But campuses don't get to KET that money all the time.

We get to KET it when they heard it.

But they have to give it back.

We asked the state to give us more money for across the board based because we have Howard insurance.

We have the pension cause we have to pay more for.

But we also have to pay are great faculty and staff.

Number 2.

And to do that, we need more state dollars.

And since we're limiting tuition all the way you can get that there's through that mechanism.

So number 3, we ask the Legislature to do that both in performance funding.

And we asked the governor's office too, but also across the board money, the governor put it in his budget in across the board early read to have a ever been up.

just yet.

But the state's general assembly, the House anyway, as proposed about a 4% increase each year and cross the base given us some money for some of the insurance cause asset preservation, which is crucial to getting where we're going.

And given the campus is their top priority in the buildings that they And and Ben, we saw all of those items then matter remain.

How do we need more?

Yes, we'll ask Senate to give us some more because the more we put it there, then the more we can mitigate.

Cost to the families.

But we have to do a better job.

I want to give us warnings and higher education.

We have to let students know the real cost of attending one of our institutions.

And we do that.

But we need to do a little more uniformly.

I think it's more you look at sticker Price said, Well, I mean, not afford to be able to especially some of our low income students.

But if you look at 2 Ned Price with all the benefits you get and other possible dollars you get the net cost isn't much at all.

So somehow we have to be a little more transparent and >> And when we talk about student financial aid, we know that there is streamline form.

You described to me the new FAFSA form and this helps people.

We know that tens of millions of dollars are left on the table in Kentucky because people are eligible and they're just not applying.

Is that still the case?

And how do they even know where to go to get the help they need to fill out this kind of form?

>> Sure.

And for all the legislators that are out there looking to help low-income students looks to pass a bill that we can all can support because we left 54 million dollars of those that had actually could have gone to college or applied to go.

That we didn't get last year.

That was from the state and the U.S. from the feds, right, right with Pell Grants.

Now you have to also understand better kept grants.

And our KTVT grants here in Kentucky is based on that Pell eligibility.

So what I know is that the more that we are able to do that and that gets then more students will have the ability to do it.

So the fasfa form is about half the size is used to be came out December 31st.

In my opinion, a little bit too late.

Culture used October.

There's been some glitches in that form and you probably have heard that here in Kentucky.

We've been trying to work with the U.S. Department of Education.

The say that let's take a couple other bears off that could help Kentucky students such as if you had 2 kids in college before you basically got a benefit because they KET that you are paying double the money.

Now you don't get that benefit anymore.

That's going to hurt me read and some families.

Second thing is the family farm in the Value Council now we know that many family farms are not making money.

You may have an asset as for us what it's worth, but you're not going to sell your subsistence.

income generating.

So there are some things.

But new forms out.

I think they work through many of the bugs that we've experienced in the last several weeks.

But we're hoping everybody feels less formal.

Yeah.

>> So in some time we have remaining, I do want to talk to you about a couple of bills.

One bill in particular, and that's a bill dealing with diversity, equity and inclusion and higher education in And I interviewed Senator Mike Wilson who was the whip in the Senate as senator from Bowling Green about his measure.

He says it is not the intent.

And this bill.

To do away with the E offices and policies totally.

What do you understand about this bill?

And I know that you're talking with lawmakers about it, right?

But what can you say about it?

You know, I will say.

>> First of all and start, I'm really I feel good about how we have conversations with bows the House and the Senate.

This matter of give you some examples here a little bit with what we've done when we work together closely to get where we need to go in higher education, why we end up with Robert Stivers them.

David Givens the 0, 2, of the leaders and the Senate on things like the health care bill and saw.

But in this case.

What we argue in Kentucky, what we're doing with the measures goes to close the gaps in Kentucky.

We don't just look at people of color, even though that we look at underrepresented minorities will look at low-income.

We look at adult learners.

We look at veterans almost been entered the Those people with disabilities.

Some of the I mean, some of those out.

And so if we're going to have any laws and I'm happy to work with Senator Wilson and he knows that we need to have in a way that doesn't slow down our progress cause.

Remember, I said earlier, second in the nation in completion, we're also closing gaps faster than the other to entertainment.

And then in a retention all of our campuses now are at 80%, were closing gaps or time to representative very fast.

We're doing this with her graduation rates.

All of those items in completion rates.

So what we have to do is to make sure that and I think Senator Wilson more roundabouts of concepts.

How can we not use the find some comps concepts to separate?

Well in Kentucky what we've done, we've used what we've done in that area to bring people together, given the wraparound services they need no matter where they're coming from.

So whatever happens in these dei bills, I hope they consider that they don't want to slow down the progress.

Kentucky is making once again.

Well, you know, I know search for Wilson well and happy to work with him.

>> So our students or even faculty employees being asked upon employment or insurance in 2 university, you about those 16 concepts that he lives out as being divisive, you know, such as having to subscribe to a certain political ideology or belief system.

Is that a requirement for condition of employment at Kentucky's colleges and universities?

Absolutely not.

We wouldn't have that.

That would be even clear.

>> Even with the policy that we have goes to talk about that diversity of thought is about the highest level of critical thinking and creative output.

You learn more from people different than you remember people like you.

And that's including whether or not you're Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal, all of those.

>> The added of debate in Let you decide what you've learned from that is really the idea of higher learn.

It is not prescriptive learning his life to tell you what you should know.

Bus.

That's it now and we work on math to run I'm not great at and the statistics.

But I mean those rare, but it's not a brown, but concepts.

So everything we've been able to find, we're not there.

So the idea, though, we don't want divisive language in our work, what we want to do is to bring people together to focus on what they need for them to get their credential.

That matters to help them to be an active part.

Our economic society and our society as a whole civic engagement.

That's one of the big things that we push Yeah.

>> Does this in any way jeopardize the performance funding formula that was developed many years ago whereby universities had to meet certain metrics when it comes to making sure underrepresented minority groups, whether they be of color or of whatever they may be described, getting more money from the state.

So I can imagine.

But if you pass this, that could kind of on or some other things that have already been settled previously.

Am I wrong about that?

Well, >> you know, center Wilson said that's not his intent.

And I'm on taking the pad at his word.

What I do know is that if there's anything that's pass to actually go away from helping our students, no matter where they come from, the get what they need.

Once again, I'll take my background as a port, southeastern Kentuckyian African-American.

The kind of help that I need may be different than if I was coming from some city upper middle class area where both my parents that higher education and song.

So those inputs matter we have to meet the students we're at.

We don't do that based purely on race.

We do it based on their ability to socially emotionally cultural and academic Lee achieve at the highest level possible.

And that's the way we look at.

This is where performance funding model works.

And that's the way and it's it does it will take more.

Renee to give the wraparound services to those that need it.

The most.

Pierre don't care who you are, but we also look at it from a standpoint we've got to get more adult learners engaged.

We just put that in our metric.

One of our metrics.

Inside of the performance funding model.

So all of these things matter.

So any be I legislation and we would look at it with that in mind doesn't slow down the progress Kentucky is making toward educating all of our citizens.

The last thing we need to do is actually get to a point where anything goes to reverse the progress that we're making academically.

And that's not anything that I hope that our Legislature, anybody bring to the table.

>> So we know that final question about this.

Doctor, Thompson, we know that this legislation as a templet of what's been adopted and Florida, Tennessee, I think mostly this replicates, the Senate bill replicates the Tennessee version of And I understand that Senator Wilson is working on some language to clarify that it's not to interfere with academic freedom process Oriole privilege.

I guess you could say in the classroom to make sure that there is a free flowing of discussion.

But I but I am curious, this is the first bill that we've seen of this and there could be others the concern about where this goes from here.

If this doesn't pass or even if it does your concerns about the conversation around dei in general and >> has Cpe had any substantiated cases of folks coming to them.

Students and our faculty saying.

>> I've been made to subscribe to a particular ideology in order to get into this university or to be employed by it.

>> We have had and I and I haven't heard any instances where that has happened and the other piece to I want to be clear on this, that it's important for us to truly look at there.

Any student for any reason feels this in franchise back any over faculty staff, office on care, home.

That is a statement unto itself that we need to address what's going on there when we would no doubt the item that I would hope that would happen.

Is that any legislation that goes to actually increase the opportunity for success would not hinder it.

And so I think I mean, for example, part of legislation focuses on really taking away autonomy from the campuses.

The actually be sued.

We I mean, that's not what you want to set up too loosely, right?

Cause we know there's all kinds of stuff that could happen there.

But I will say once again, you know, we we have a reputation of working with General Assembly and we're going to continue to do that.

Not just around the bills are funding.

We're going to continue to do it to move the state forward.

>> So I said to us about was last question.

But she brought about $1000, but no more than $100,000.

Cumulatively per action is what the universities are subject to for noncompliance.

If this bill were to become law.

Any further thing to say and I would like to take that out of fathers level.

You can think about.

>> For what could happen, who's going to investigate all this has been substantiated.

What Kyle legal fees is going to be incurred way beyond just that.

I mean, and how could something like that happened just on the perception whether or not it's true, this amount of time it would take to really get there.

I would hope he would take a closer look at that No doubt.

The other thing, too, is that I think it is important for us this.

I would ask people look at real bad when Kentucky is the best day.

The system in the nation at last coast.

Look at really but outcomes that we really want from the state.

And while the pieces that I will tell you is that anything that happens, whether his policies from my shop, whether this campus action, whether it's bills coming out of the legislature, if somehow we don't look at our day there and look at the analytics and look at, of course, telling us how we can actually create a formative way being successful in the state, then I think we've all shirked their duty somewhat cares about this.

And that becomes really them the reason our opportunity for us to have communications and collaboration.

Ys and really be read in years.

Well, now I'm probably too transparent and then saying that if there are things that we need to look at the Nixon, you know, we were wanting to fix that.

If there's things that we need to look at asking people for to help us to do better, then where we want to be able to do that too, and not have any barriers set up that keeps us from doing that.

>> Yeah.

Accredidation final question on this.

Would this impact Accredidation anyway?

Because that's a regional thing.

>> I think it depends on how would pass whether it would there could be some cases where it would especially at that hands on academic freedom or whether or not it creates other sorts of barriers that KET students from coming in and goes against the policies of the institutions that are positive to get students to come in and be successful.

It could.

But I once we are happy at CPR.

Campus presidents and others, perhaps a little way on board with working with Senator Wilson or whomever to look at how we don't impinge on things like credit, a son.

But moreover, not impinge on our repeated myself now, several events here, stop the progress or even have an opportunity to increase the momentum of health.

And Oliver.

So that seems to be successful.

>> Well, I think you eyes and algae a little bit more time that I thought it would on that matter.

But we'll have you back on the other side, the session to talk about the successes that the had during the session and where we go from here.

Thank you.

President Trump.

>> Yeah, you're absolutely welcome.

I would be remiss if I didn't end well, but my agency just received the National Award from Complete College America.

That said we were the most innovative toward student success and gap closing in the nation and congratulate.

I want to thank my staff for their work.

>> Yeah, we buried the lead on that one.

Good way to and good final words.

Thank you.

Doctor Thompson and thank you for watching today.

You can always follow us during the week on Kentucky Edition when we talk about issues just like this week night at 6.30, Eastern 5.30, central on K E T. And it also watches Monday night on Kentucky tonight.

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Take really good care.

So long.

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