>>BONNIE: THIS WEEK ON TO THE CONTRARY.

FIRST, AN EMBARRASSMENT FOR A COUNTY D.A.

IN TEXAS AND A VERY STRICT ANTI-ABORTION LAW IN OKLAHOMA.

THEN U.S. CITIZENS NOW HAVE A THIRD GENDER OPTION ON THEIR PASSPORTS.

AND ACTOR JOHNNY DEPP'S $50 MILLION DEFAMATION LAWSUIT AGAINST HIS EX-WIFE, AMBER HEARD COULD END UP MAKING IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR AMERICAN WOMEN IN LEGAL BATTLES OVER DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

(MUSIC) HELLO, I'M BONNIE ERBE, WELCOME TO.

TO THE CONTRARY, A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, NEW ABORTION RELATED DEVELOPMENTS.

A TEXAS COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY HAS APOLOGIZED AFTER CHARGING A 26-YEAR OLD WOMAN WITH MURDER.

THE WOMAN HAD A MISCARRIAGE, LIKELY AFTER TRYING TO ABORT A FETUS.

TEXAS LAW BANS PROVIDERS FROM GIVING PATIENTS ABORTION PILLS OR PERFORMING ABORTIONS ABOUT SIX WEEKS INTO PREGNANCY.

BUT IT DOESN'T CRIMINALIZE OR IMPOSE PENALTIES FOR WOMEN WHO HAVE ABORTIONS.

MEANWHILE, THE GOVERNOR OF OKLAHOMA HAS SIGNED A CONTROVERSIAL LAW.

THAT'S A NEAR TOTAL BAN ON ABORTIONS.

ABORTIONS IN CASES OF RAPE AND INCEST AREN'T PERMITTED ONLY TO SAVE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER.

SOME COMPANIES ALSO ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK THEY'LL OVER COSTS FOR EMPLOYEES AND THEIR SPOUSES WHO TRAVEL OUT OF STATE FOR ABORTION CARE JOINING ME TODAY ARE FORMER REPRESENTATIVE DONNA EDWARDS, DEMOCRAT FROM MARYLAND.

GENEVIEVE WOOD OF THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION, AND ERIN MATSON, CO-FOUNDER OF REPROACTION.

IS THIS A TIME WHEN SUPPORTERS OF ABORTION RIGHTS ARE SORT OF IN CROUCH MODE, FEARING THE WORST IS TO COME?

>>DONNA EDWARDS: WELL, I MEAN, THIS IS INDEED THE SLIPPERY SLOPE.

AND I THINK THE EXAMPLE THAT HAS BEEN USED IN TEXAS IS ONE WHERE WOMEN ARE GOING TO FIND THEMSELVES IN A POSITION OF, YOU KNOW, SELF INDUCING ABORTIONS AND ENDANGERING THEMSELVES AND THEIR LIVES.

AND WE KNOW THAT IF THE SUPREME COURT MAKES A DECISION THAT EVERYBODY IS PREDICTING BY THE END OF THIS TERM, THAT THAT IS GOING TO SEE A RAMPANT UNLEASHING OF LAWS ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT WILL GO INTO EFFECT THAT WILL DEEPLY IMPACT WOMEN'S WOMEN'S LIVES AND THEIR SAFETY.

AND THIS IS NOT THE END.

AND THERE WILL PRETTY SOON BE ONLY A HANDFUL OF STATES WHERE WOMEN ARE ABLE TO SEEK ABORTIONS.

AND SO GOOD FOR THOSE EMPLOYERS, AT LEAST LOOKING AHEAD AND TRYING TO PROVIDE THE KIND OF RESOURCES THAT ARE GOING TO ENABLE WOMEN TO GET THE REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE THEY DESERVE.

>>BONNIE: GENEVIEVE, YOUR THOUGHTS.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THE COMMON WISDOM THAT THE SUPREME COURT IS GOING TO COMPLETELY OVERTURN ROE AND MAKE LAWS LIKE OKLAHOMA'S LEGAL OR MORE LIKE MISSISSIPPI'S, WHICH BANS ABORTION AFTER 15 WEEKS?

>>GENEVIEVE WOOD: WELL, WE'RE GOING TO SEE IN THE NEAR TERM.

I'M NOT AN ATTORNEY, BUT YES, WHEN YOU READ THE KIND OF TEA LEAVES THAT YOU SEE COMING OUT FROM A LOT OF LEGAL SCHOLARS, IT LOOKS LIKE THEY BELIEVE THAT THE COURT I BELIEVE IS ACTUALLY GOING TO CATCH UP WITH THE SCIENCE.

AND THE REALITY IS, IS THAT BABIES HAVE BECOME INCREASINGLY VIABLE AT EARLIER AND EARLIER STAGES OF PREGNANCY.

THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY, MANY PLACES ARE RECOGNIZING THAT MANY STATE LEGISLATURES ARE BEGINNING TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

AND THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IF ROE IS OVERTURNED.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BAN ABORTION.

IT'S GOING TO ALLOW PEOPLE INDIVIDUAL TO STATES TO DECIDE WHAT THEY WANT TO TOLERATE WHEN IT COMES TO ABORTION.

AND THE REALITY IS THAT MANY PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY INCREASINGLY ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH ABORTION ON DEMAND AND THEY WANT TO PUT LIMITS ON IT.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE SAME IN EVERY SINGLE STATE.

BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF ATTENTION HAS BEEN GIVEN TO THE MOST RECENT LAWS.

BUT THE REALITY IS OVER THE PAST TEN YEARS, THERE'VE BEEN OVER 500 PRO-LIFE LEGISLATIVE CASES BROUGHT UP THROUGH THROUGH THE DIFFERENT STATES.

THAT'S BECAUSE OF PEOPLE ARE WANTING TO MAKE CHANGES.

IF ROE'S OVERTURNED, MANY OF THOSE CHANGES WILL NOW BE ABLE TO BE MADE >>BONNIE: ERIN, YOU'RE OUT THERE WITH YOUNG WOMEN.

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IF THE SUPREME COURT DOES EITHER OVERTURN ROE OR LARGELY OR MAKE IT, YOU KNOW, PUT SO MANY HOLES IN IT?

IT'S IT DOESN'T REALLY PREVENT STATES FROM DOING ANYTHING THEY WANT TO DO ANYMORE.

>>ERIN: YEAH, BONNIE, I THINK EVERYONE IS PREPARED FOR THE SUPREME COURT TO EFFECTIVELY END ROE VERSUS WADE.

AND THAT WILL BE AN UNMITIGATED DISASTER FOR PUBLIC HEALTH AND FOR GENDER EQUALITY.

IN THIS COUNTRY, SPECIFICALLY IN TERMS OF MOBILIZING THE NEXT STEPS.

ONE THING I WANT TO SAY VERY CLEARLY IS THAT ABORTION IS UNSTOPPABLE.

AND NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LAW, PEOPLE WILL FIND WAYS TO SAFELY AND EFFECTIVELY END THEIR PREGNANCIES WITH ABORTION PILLS.

THE ACTUAL RISK NOW, IT'S SO DIFFERENT THAN THE PRE-ROE DAYS.

NOW WE HAVE THESE ABORTION PILLS, WHICH ARE SAFE, WHICH ARE EFFECTIVE, WHICH ARE RECOMMENDED BY THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, EVEN FOR SELF-MANAGED ABORTION.

AND SO THE PRIMARY RISK IS NOW LEGAL AND NOT MEDICAL >>BONNIE: DOES THIS PUT THE ISSUE A GREAT FEAR FOR THE HEART OF YOUNG WOMEN?

JAIL WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW SHE WAS, BUT WHETHER SHE WAS USING MEDICAL ABORTION, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO HAVE GIVE HERSELF A MEDICAL ABORTION OR WHAT.

BUT SHE DID END UP IN A HOSPITAL.

IS THAT GOING TO PUT THE FEAR OF BEING THROWN IN JAIL AND SERVING TIME IN JAIL IN THE HEARTS OF WOMEN IN THEIR TWENTIES AND THIRTIES, THE ONES WHO ARE MOST LIKELY TO NEED ABORTIONS >>ERIN: I MEAN, IT SHOULD PUT THAT FEAR IN THE HEART OF EVERYONE.

THERE IS NO END TO THIS AGENDA.

AND IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT ABORTION.

IT IS ABOUT MISCARRIAGE.

IT IS ABOUT BIRTH CONTROL.

IT IS ABOUT GENDER AFFIRMING THERAPY.

AND SO THERE'S A WHOLE VARIETY OF RESTRICTIONS THAT ARE COMING DOWN THE PIKE.

AND PEOPLE HAVE EVERY REASON TO BE CONCERNED.

BONNIE, ABOUT THE FACT OF THAT SHE HAD BEEN ALLEGEDLY TURNED IN BY A PROVIDER MOST LIKELY TO BE IN THE BONNIE: HOSPITAL WHERE SHE WENT THERE AT THE HOSPITAL.

>>ERIN MATSON: EXACTLY.

NOT ACTUALLY TENDS TO BE THE PLACE WHERE PEOPLE ARE MOST AT RISK OF CRIMINALIZATION, WHERE YOU HAVE DOCTORS WHO ARE VIOLATING THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH TO DO NO HARM, WHO MAY NOT BE EDUCATED, THAT THERE'S NO REASON TO TURN PEOPLE IN.

AND FOR THAT MATTER, THAT PATIENTS AREN'T EDUCATED NECESSARILY, THAT THERE'S NO MEDICAL TEST TO PROVE THAT A PERSON HAS TAKEN ABORTION PILLS AND THAT THE STATE STANDARD OF CARE IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS FOR MISCARRIAGE.

>>BONNIE: GENEVIEVE SAID THAT MOST AMERICANS ARE NOW OPPOSED TO ABORTION RIGHTS.

DONNA, YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT?

>>DONNA EDWARDS: WELL, IT'S NOT TRUE.

I MEAN, POLL AFTER POLL ACTUALLY SHOWS THAT THAT AMERICANS OF ALL STRIPES REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS, INDEPENDENTS ACTUALLY DO SUPPORT ABORTION RIGHTS.

AND THERE'S NEVER BEEN A SUCH THING IS REALLY ABORTION ON DEMAND?

THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CONSTRAINTS ABOUT WHEN AN ABORTION CAN TAKE PLACE AND WHERE.

AND SO I THINK THAT THOSE THINGS WILL CONTINUE.

MY WORRY AND I WANT TO SPEAK UP ON BEHALF OF POOR WOMEN OF WOMEN OF COLOR WHO HAVE THE LEAST ABILITY TO TRAVEL FROM ONE JURISDICTION TO THE OTHER, EVEN IF THEY HAD THE MONEY.

DO THEY HAVE.

ARE THEY ABLE TO TAKE OFF THE TIME TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT, TO GET CHILDCARE FOR THEIR FOR THEIR OTHER CHILDREN?

WEALTHY WOMEN HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO GET ABORTIONS.

THEY FLY OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES.

THEY FLY TO WHATEVER STATE THEY THEY NEED TO.

BUT POOR WOMEN, WOMEN OF COLOR ARE THE MOST VULNERABLE AND STAND THE MOST TO LOSE.

AND WHEN PROVIDERS ARE TURNING TURNING WOMEN IN.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE A DISTRUST IN THE MEDICAL SYSTEM AND ALL THE MORE THAT WOMEN ARE GOING TO BE FORCED INTO VERY UNSAFE CIRCUMSTANCES AND UNSAFE ABORTIONS THAT JEOPARDIZE THEIR LIVES.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT PRO-LIFE, I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT WOMEN'S LIVES FOR A CHANCE.

>>GENEIVIEVE?

DOES THE RIGHT FEAR POLITICAL REPERCUSSIONS OF ENERGIZING THE LEFT TO ENERGIZING WOMEN TO GET THERE?

GET OUT THERE AND VOTE AGAINST REPUBLICANS BECAUSE OF ALL THIS ANTI ABORTION ACTIVITY?

>>GENEVIEVE: YEAH, >>BONNIE: I MEAN, I THINK MOST PEOPLE, THEY MAY FEEL MILD.

I'M TALKING ABOUT THE AVERAGE SUBURBAN MOM THAT THEY MAY FEEL ONE WAY OR ANOTHER SLIGHTLY, ONE ON ONE SIDE OR ANOTHER.

BUT IT'S REALLY NOT IF IF THEY'RE AGAINST ABORTION, THEY DON'T HAVE ABORTIONS.

AND IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT DRIVES THEM TO TO VOTE.

BUT IF THEY LOSE THAT RIGHT IS THERE A POSSIBILITY THAT THERE WILL BE AN EXPLOSION OF WOMEN RUNNING TO THE POLLS?

AND WOMEN OBVIOUSLY TEND TO VOTE DEMOCRATIC BY TEN TO 20 PERCENTAGE POINTS MORE THAN MEN.

>>GENEVIEVE: WELL, I THINK IT IS A POSSIBILITY.

I THINK BOTH SIDES ARE KIND OF LOOKING AT WHAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR US POLITICALLY.

BUT BUT THE REALITY IS, I WANT TO BE ONE CLEAR ABOUT ONE THING, BONNIE.

I DIDN'T SAY THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE OPPOSED TO ABORTION RIGHTS.

WHAT I SAID IS AN INCREASING NUMBER OF PEOPLE WANT TO PUT MORE LIMITS ON ABORTION.

WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IN INDIVIDUAL STATES.

YOU KNOW, THE BILL IN MISSISSIPPI IS DIFFERENT THAN THE ONE IN TEXAS, WHICH IS DIFFERENT THAN THE ONE THAT THEY JUST TALKED ABOUT IN OKLAHOMA.

AND A LOT OF OTHER PLACES ARE GOING TO CONSIDER DIFFERENT THINGS.

SO, LOOK, THE PEOPLE ARE FINALLY GOING TO HAVE A SAY ON THIS.

AND FOR 50 YEARS SINCE 1973, THEY'VE NOT HAD ONE BECAUSE ROE BASICALLY SAID YOU CAN HAVE AN ABORTION UP UNTIL THE MOMENT OF PREGNANCY.

AND THAT WAS ALLOWED DIDN'T SAY EVERYBODY DID THAT, BUT THAT WAS ALLOWED.

>>BONNIE: YOU SAY THE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FINALLY HAVE A SAY ON THIS.

ACTUALLY, EVEN THOUGH HILLARY CLINTON LOST THE ELECTION IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, 3 MILLION MORE PEOPLE VOTED FOR HER THAN FOR DONALD TRUMP.

SO SOME PEOPLE ON THE LEFT ARE SAYING THAT THE RIGHT IS THE TYRANNY OF THE MINORITY.

IN OTHER WORDS, THE MINORITY OF AMERICANS ARE TRYING TO IMPOSE THEIR RELIGIOUS VIEWS IN THE FORM OF LAWS ON THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS WHO DON'T WANT THAT.

>>GENEVIEVE: BUT HERE'S THE REALITY, BONNIE.

THIS IS GOING TO GO TO THE STATES.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A FEDERAL THING.

HILLARY WOULDN'T HAVE LOST THIS BATTLE, RIGHT?

OKAY.

IT WOULD.

IT WOULD.

IF YOU GO BACK TO THE STATES, YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE ANYMORE.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE AND THEIR REPRESENTATIVES AND THEIR STATE LEGISLATURES AND GOVERNORS MAKING THOSE DECISIONS, NOT SOMEBODY IN WASHINGTON OR THE NINE JUDGES ON THE SUPREME COURT.

SO I THINK IT'S BRINGING IT BACK.

AND I DO THINK THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING TO COME.

AND I THINK ERIN TOUCHED ON THIS EARLIER.

CHEMICAL ABORTIONS ARE ALREADY MORE AND MORE PREVALENT THAN THEY WERE, OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, TEN YEARS AGO.

BUT THERE HAS BEEN AN ATTEMPT AT SOME OF THIS STARTED DURING COVID NOT TO HAVE WOMEN GO SEE A PROVIDER AND TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS ON THEIR OWN.

AND THERE ARE STUDIES INCLUDED, IF YOU LOOK AT MEDICAID BILLING, THAT CHEMICAL ABORTIONS RU486 ARE FOUR TIMES MORE LIKELY TO END UP IN PROBLEMS FOR THE WOMAN WHO'S DOING THAT.

AND IF YOU'RE A POOR WOMAN BUT ABORTIONS ARE >>BONNIE: BUT ABORTIONS OVERALL THE GUTTMACHER INSTITUTE HAS REPORTED MANY TIMES THAT THEY'RE SAFER THAN PREGNANCY BY BY A LONG SHOT AND ARE NOT RIGHT ON THAT.

>>GENEVIEVE:WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT CASE BONNIE.

>>ERIN MATSON: BONNIE, IT'S SAFER THAN TYLENOL.

ABORTION PILLS ARE SAFER THAN TYLENOL.

NOT JUST SAFER THAN PREGNANCY.

SAFER THAN TYLENOL.

I JUST THINK IF WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT WOMEN'S SAFETY, WE NEED TO REALLY LOOK AT THOSE NUMBERS AND MAKING SURE THAT THAT'S ACTUALLY THE CASE.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE LAW IN TEXAS, FOR EXAMPLE, A LOT OF FEDERAL MONEY I'M SORRY, STATE DOLLARS, PUBLIC DOLLARS WERE PUT INTO PLAY TO HELP WOMEN WHO HAD THEIR CHILDREN, WHO NEEDED WHETHER IT WAS CARE, WHO NEEDED ASSISTANCE WITH HOUSING, FEDERAL DOLLARS OR SORRY STATE DOLLARS WERE BEING PROVIDED FOR THOSE FOLKS.

SO I THINK THAT WAS A LAW THAT LOOKED AT BOTH WOMEN AND THE ABORTION ISSUE AND TRIED TO ADDRESS BOTH.

>BONNIE: LAST WORD.

GO AHEAD.

>>DONNA EDWARDS: WELL, WE DON'T WE FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS CONSTITUTED FUNDAMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO THE STATES.

AND NOR SHOULD WE LEAVE THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO AN ABORTION TO THE WHIMS OF A STATE SO THAT ONE STATE CAN CHOOSE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT OVER ANOTHER STATE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN WITH ABORTION RIGHTS.

AND MOREOVER, FOR BLACK WOMEN.

LET'S BE REALLY CLEAR.

HAVING A BABY IS FAR MORE DANGEROUS FOR BLACK WOMEN THAN IT IS TO HAVE AN ABORTION.

>>BONNIE: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU FOR THIS TOPIC.

AND WE GO FROM REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH TO PASSPORTS, MALE, FEMALE OR X.

THOSE ARE THE OPTIONS NOW AVAILABLE FOR GENDER SELECTION ON PASSPORTS.

THIS COMES AFTER A LAWSUIT FROM A NON-BINARY PERSON IN COLORADO WHO ARGUED IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET A PASSPORT THAT ACCURATELY REFLECTED THEIR GENDER.

THE STATE DEPARTMENT IS THE FIRST FEDERAL AGENCY TO ALLOW THE GENDER MARKER X IN OFFICIAL DOCUMENT.

AS IT STANDS FOR UNSPECIFIED OR ANOTHER GENDER IDENTITY.

SO, ERIN, IS THIS PROGRESS OR NOT?

>>ERIN MATSON: YEAH, IT'S A STEP.

IT'S GREAT.

I MEAN, THE FACT IS I QUESTION WHY WE NEED TO HAVE GENDER LISTED ON PASSPORTS AT ALL.

YOU KNOW, BONNIE, I TOLD MY DAUGHTER, WHO'S EIGHT YEARS OLD, I TELL HER EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY SEPARATE BOYS AND GIRLS ASK THE QUESTION, WHY, WHETHER IT'S BASEBALL AND SOFTBALL OR WHAT HAVE YOU ASK THE QUESTION, WHY?

AND DON'T STOP IF YOU GET A STUPID ANSWER.

AND I HAVE WRAP MY BRAIN ABOUT THIS.

I CANNOT COME UP WITH A NON STUPID ANSWER FOR WHY ANYONE NEEDS TO HAVE A GENDER ON A PASSPORT.

>>GENEVIEVE: CAN I TRY TO GIVE A NON STUPID ANSWER BECAUSE PASSPORTS ARE USED BY BORDER AGENTS TO DETERMINE IF YOU ARE WHO YOU SAY YOU ARE.

AND ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT IS SAY IS THIS PERSON A MALE OR IS THIS PERSON A FEMALEWE HAVE TWO BIOLOGICAL SEXES.

THAT MAY NOT BE WHAT YOU THINK ON THE INSIDE.

WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE GENDER ISSUE.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO IDENTIFYING PEOPLE, THAT'S WHEN WE HAVE HEIGHT ON THINGS.

IT'S WHY WE HAVE YOU HAVE THIS COLOR EYES OR THOSE COLOR EYES.

THAT'S WHAT'S ON YOUR PASSPORT.

AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE USED FOR.

SO BUT THIS HAS TURNED INTO NOT WHAT IT SHOULD BE, WHICH IS A SECURITY MEASURE AND A SECURITY ISSUE.

IT'S TURNED INTO A DEBATE OVER GENDER IDENTITY AND TRYING TO BRING THAT INTO THIS, I THINK, IS JUST NOT NOT WISE AND NOT SAFE IN THE LONG TERM.

>>BONNIE: DONNA, YOUR THOUGHTS IS THIS IS ARE REPUBLICANS GOING TO USE THIS AS A POLITICAL ISSUE AGAINST DEMOCRATS IN THE MIDTERMS?

>>DONNA EDWARDS: WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT, BUT I MEAN, IT'S REALLY NOT A SECURITY ISSUE.

I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT PASSPORTS NOW, FOR ONE, SO MUCH OF THIS DATA IS ACTUALLY INPUT ELECTRONIC WHEN YOU SHOW YOUR YOUR PASSPORT, WHAT THE BORDER PATROL BORDER AGENT IS LOOKING AT, THEY'RE LOOKING AT YOUR FACE AND THEN THEY'RE LOOKING DOWN AT THE PASSPORT TO IDENTIFY YOU.

THEY'RE NOT LOOKING TO SEE WHETHER YOU'RE A MALE OR A FEMALE.

AND SO I THINK THAT THE REASONING BEHIND THOSE IDS THAT MAY HAVE EXISTED IN IN MANY YEARS OR DECADES PAST REALLY DON'T EXIST NOW BECAUSE SO MUCH OF OUR IDENTITY IS HOUSED WITHIN THESE ELECTRONIC MEANS TO IDENTIFY PEOPLE FOR THE PURPOSES OF BORDER CONTROL.

AND NOBODY NEEDS TO KNOW THAT I'M A FEMALE.

I MEAN, THEY COULD MISTAKE ME, LOOK AT MY SHORT HAIR AND DECIDE THAT I'M A MALE OR A FEMALE.

BUT WHEN THEY LOOK AT MY PICTURE, THEY KNOW WHO I AM.

>>BONNIE: GENEVIEVE, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>>GENEVIEVE: WELL, I JUST I DISAGREE WITH THAT.

I JUST I JUST SIMPLY DISAGREE.

I THINK IT IS A WAY THAT PEOPLE CAN DETERMINE IF SOMEBODY IS WHO THEY SAY THEY ACTUALLY ARE AND PEOPLE CAN CHANGE THEIR APPEARANCE.

THEY CAN'T CHANGE THEIR SEX VERY EASILY.

IT'S VERY CLEAR TO SEE WHAT SOMEBODY IS SO, I MEAN, ON THE AVERAGE BASIS, NO, PEOPLE AREN'T BORDER PEOPLE AREN'T LOOKING AT THAT.

BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN THAT'S A SECURITY MEASURE.

BUT AGAIN, I THINK THIS IS THIS IS NOT GOING TO STOP HERE.

BONNIE, >>BONNIE: OKAY.

BUT I'M NOT YOU KNOW, IT'S EASY TO TELL WHERE THE PERSON IS IF THEY'RE NOT TRANSGENDER AND THEY HAVE GONE THROUGH HORMONAL TREATMENT AND WHATEVER ELSE.

I MEAN, A LOT OF WOMEN WHO TRANSGENDERED TO MEN REALLY LOOK LIKE MEN AND VICE VERSA.

DO YOU THINK PEOPLE TRANSGENDER AND NON-BINARY PEOPLE ARE KIND OF MESSING IT UP SO MUCH, TOSSING IT IN THE AIR, AS IT WERE, THAT IT MIGHT NOT BE POSSIBLE TO TELL PEOPLE'S GENDER MUCH IN THE FUTURE?

>>GENEVIEVE: FIRST OF ALL, IT'S A VERY SMALL SUBGROUP OF PEOPLE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, AND WE CAN MAYBE ADDRESS THAT DIFFERENTLY.

BUT THE REALITY IS EVERYBODY'S EITHER BORN MALE OR FEMALE.

AND PUTTING THOSE SEXES ON A SECURITY DOCUMENT, WHICH IS WHAT A PASSPORT IS I THINK IS A GOOD SECURITY MEASURE.

>>BONNIE: ALL RIGHT.

AND ERIN, DO YOU THINK THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE OVERDOING IT ON THIS ISSUE AND HANDING THE REPUBLICANS AN ISSUE TO CAMPAIGN ON IN THE MIDTERMS THAT MIGHT BRING THEM SUCCESS?

>>ERIN: WELL, FIRST OFF, THIS IS THE STATE DEPARTMENT, NOT A POLITICAL PARTY THAT MADE THIS DECISION.

SO I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.

>>BONNIE: BUT ACTUALLY BUT IT'S A STATE DEPARTMENT RUN BY A DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION.

>>ERIN: THAT'S THAT'S TRUE.

THAT'S TRUE.

IT IS RUN BY A DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION.

I WOULD ACTUALLY LIKE TO SEE ALL ADVOCATES FOR JUSTICE DIG IN HARDER AND SUPPORT OUR TRANS YOUTH AND TRANS PEOPLE.

THERE ARE MALICIOUS ATTACKS THAT ARE HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME THAT THESE MALICIOUS ATTACKS ARE HAPPENING AND OF ABORTION.

I JUST WANT TO SAY VERY CLEARLY THAT BIOLOGICAL SEX IS NOT GENDER.

THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, I THINK IF GENEVIEVE WAS SPEAKING TO BIOLOGICAL SEX, I DON'T THINK THIS IS A RELEVANT DISTINCTION.

EITHER, THAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT SHOULD BE TRACKING AND PASSPORTS.

AND I WILL SAY FROM A SAFETY AND SECURITY ISSUE, I FEEL LESS SAFE IF THE IDEA IS THAT PASSPORTS COULD LEAD TO SOMEBODY AT THE BORDER TRYING TO DO A CHECK OF WHAT'S GOING ON UNDERNEATH SOMEONE'S CLOTHES.

I MEAN, THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

>>GENEVIEVE: WELL, LET'S LET'S BE CLEAR.

NOBODY'S CHECKING ANYTHING AT OUR BORDER RIGHT NOW UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

THEY'RE NOT CHECKING PASSPORTS.

THEY'RE NOT CHECKING ANYTHING.

SO, LOOK, THIS IS THIS IS TURNED INTO POLITICS.

AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY'LL BE A POLITICAL AGENDA OR A POLITICAL ISSUE IN THE MIDTERMS OR NOT.

BUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION PUT OUT A MEASURE SAYING THAT THEY WERE GOING TO PUSH FOR THESE TYPES OF ISSUES WHEREVER THEY CAN.

AND NOW YOU SEE THEIR STATE DEPARTMENT DOING IT.

AND THERE WILL BE OTHER PLACES AS WELL.

BUT LOOK, THAT'S WHAT THEY PROMISED.

BIDEN IS BEHOLDEN TO THAT PART OF THE LEFT AGENDA.

AND THEY'RE IMPLEMENTING IT.

>>BONNIE: ALL RIGHT.

FROM X PASSPORTS TO CELEBRITY LAWSUITS.

HOLLYWOOD STAR JOHNNY DEPP'S LIBEL LAWSUIT AGAINST HIS EX-WIFE AMBER HEARD HAS BEGUN IN A VIRGINIA COURT.

DEPP IS SUING HER FOR $50 MILLION, CLAIMING SHE DEFAMED HIM IN A WASHINGTON POST ARTICLE SHE WROTE IN 2018 ABOUT SURVIVING DOMESTIC ABUSE.

HEARD IS ARGUING THAT THE PIECE WAS WRITTEN TO SIMPLY DISCUSS THE ISSUE OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND THERE IS NO WRONGDOING BECAUSE SHE NEVER NAMED DEPP.

THE CASE IS IMPORTANT WHETHER OR NOT DEPP SUCCEEDS AT THE EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH LEGAL BAR OF PROVING HER KNOWINGLY PLANNED AND EXECUTED FALSE STATEMENTS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

IF HEARD LOSES THAT COULD MAKE IT TOUGHER FOR SURVIVORS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE TO COME FORWARD.

ALL RIGHT, DONNA, HOW LIKELY IS IT THAT HEARD WILL LOSE AND THAT THAT COULD PUT A DAMPER ON OTHER WOMEN COMING OUT ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH DOMESTIC VIOLENCE?

>>DONNA: WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO MAKE A DISTINCTION THAT THIS IS IN CIVIL COURT AND NOT IN CRIMINAL COURT AND THAT THE REQUIREMENTS ARE DIFFERENT.

TRUTH IS ALWAYS A DEFENSE TO DEFAMATION.

AND, AND I THINK TO THE EXTENT THAT SHE IS ABLE, UNDER THE CIVIL STANDARD TO PROVE THAT HER ALLEGATIONS ARE TRUE, THEN IT WILL ABSOLVE HER OF RESPONSIBILITY.

I THINK DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS ALWAYS TOUGH.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO SAY, WELL, I'M FRIENDS WITH THEM, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW ANY THIS WAS GOING ON IN THEIR IN THEIR HOME.

WELL, THAT IS TRUE FOR MOST INSTANCES OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

AND IT SHOULDN'T RELIEVE EITHER THE STATE OR OUR COMMUNITIES FOR RESPONDING TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE APPROPRIATELY, FOR TAKING WOMEN'S WORD WHEN THEY SAY THAT THEY HAVE BEEN ABUSED, BECAUSE YOU RARELY FIND INSTANCES WHERE YOU HAVE WITNESSES TO THE TO THE ABUSE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS SOME OF THE CHALLENGE IN BRINGING THIS THIS CIVIL ACTION.

>>BONNIE: SO GENEVIEVE, THERE'S BEEN TALK IN HOLLYWOOD ABOUT BECAUSE DEPP HAS LOST SO MUCH WORK SINCE AMBER HEARD CAME OUT ABOUT THAT HE PHYSICALLY ABUSED HER ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS.

THERE'S TALK.

AND HE ALREADY HAD A TRIAL IN ENGLAND YEARS AGO, WHICH HE LOST THAT HE DID THIS REALLY MORE FOR PUBLIC RELATIONS PURPOSES THAN TO TRY TO RESTORE HIS REPUTATION THAN REALLY TO GET ANY ANY MONEY OUT OF AMBER HEARD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>>GENEVIEVE: I THINK IT'S VERY POSSIBLE.

AND WE'VE SEEN CELEBRITIES PULL ALL SORTS OF STUNTS TO TRY TO GET PUBLICITY, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEIR CAREER IS NOT GOING THE WAY THAT MAYBE THEY WANT IT TO OR THEY'RE KIND OF FALLING OUT OF THE PUBLIC EYE.

AND LOOK, JOHNNY DEPP HAS HAD OTHER ISSUES IN THE PAST, RIGHT?

HE'S NOT HE DOESN'T HAVE THE CLEANEST BACKGROUND AND I THINK IT DOES MAKE HIM A VERY SYMPATHETIC CHARACTER WHEN IT COMES TO THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

AND LOOK, SHE DID NOT YOU KNOW, IT'S TOUGH WITH WITH CELEBRITIES TO GET LIBEL CASES TO STICK IN DEFAMATION CASES LIKE THIS TO STICK.

SO IT'S GOING TO BE VERY I WOULD BE SURPRISED IF HE WAS ABLE TO WIN THIS.

BUT WE'LL SEE.

>>BONNIE: AND I'M SITTING HERE ERIN, THINKING TO MYSELF, IF HE DID THIS FOR PR PURPOSES AND HE LOSES, AS MOST LEGAL EXPERTS BELIEVE HE WILL BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A HIGH BAR FOR HIM TO PROVE THAT SHE KNEW AND PLANNED, ETC., ETC.

AND FALSE WENT OUT THERE AND FALSELY CLAIMED HE BEAT HER UP WHEN THERE ARE PICTURES OF HER WITH BRUISES AND SUCH.

WHY IN IN THIS WORLD WOULD HE THINK THAT A SECOND TRIAL WOULD IMPROVE HIS REPUTATION?

>>ERIN: I DON'T KNOW.

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

BONNIE AND I AM NOT IN A PLACE WHERE I AM WORRIED ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON INSIDE JOHNNY DEPP'S HEAD RIGHT NOW.

HERE'S WHAT I AM WORRIED ABOUT.

I AM WORRIED ABOUT THE MANY, MANY, MANY WOMEN AND GIRLS IN THIS COUNTRY WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED VIOLENCE.

AND I AM WORRIED ABOUT THE METOO MOVEMENT.

AND SPECIFICALLY, IT IS REALLY POWERFUL FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO COME TOGETHER, TO NAME THEIR STORIES, TO SEE THEMSELVES AS SURVIVORS AND ABLE TO MOVE PAST SOMETHING.

SO THESE TYPES OF THESE TYPES OF LAWSUITS WHAT THEY EXERCISE IS A CHILLING EFFECT ON WOMEN EVERYWHERE WHO REALLY ARE LOOKING TO SPEAK UP ABOUT THEIR STORIES AND GET SOME HEALING.

AND SO THAT IS MY TOP CONCERN TO THE QUESTION OF TIME'S UP.

I JUST DON'T KNOW.

AND HONESTLY, I REALLY DON'T CARE.

>>BONNIE: WELL, YOU KNOW, FROM A PUBLIC POLICY STANDPOINT, FOR THE MOST PART, I AGREE WITH YOU.

BUT IF HE DOES I MEAN, IF HE WERE TO WIN, THAT WOULD PUT A DAMPER ON A LOT OF WOMEN'S WANTING TO GO PUBLIC WITH HAVING BEEN ABUSED IN THE METOO MOVEMENT.

I KNOW IT'S GOING ON.

I KNOW THERE ARE CASES OUT THERE, BUT FROM A PR PERSPECTIVE, IT SEEMS TO HAVE STALLED IT SEEMS TO HAVE STALLED A LONG TIME AGO.

>>GENEVIEVE: YOU KNOW, BONNIE, BUT THE FLIP THE FLIP SIDE IS IF SHE WINS, IT COULD HAVE THE OPPOSITE EFFECT.

RIGHT.

HER STORY WILL BE OUT THERE THAT MANY PEOPLE MAY NOT HAVE BEEN AWARE OF.

AND IT'S GOING TO YOU KNOW, SHE SEEMS TO BE A VERY STRONG CHARACTER.

SO IT COULD HAVE THE OPPOSITE EFFECT.

>>BONNIE: RIGHT.

>>DONNA EDWARDS: MOST WOMEN ACTUALLY DON'T BRING CIVIL LAWSUITS AGAINST THEIR ABUSERS.

BUT WHERE I WORRY LIKE ERIN, IS THAT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WOMEN ARE ABLE TO COME FORWARD TO LAW ENFORCEMENT TO PROSECUTORS TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THOSE FOR THOSE ABUSERS.

AND I MEAN, SOMETHING LIKE, YOU KNOW, ONE IN EVERY FOUR WOMEN FACES SOME KIND OF VIOLENCE AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIVES.

AND SO THIS IS NO SMALL MATTER TO MAKE SURE THAT WOMEN HAVE THE ABILITY TO COME FORWARD AND TO MAKE THEIR VOICES AND THEIR STORIES HEARD.

>>BONNIE: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU ALL.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

LET'S KEEP TALKING ON FACEBOOK, TWITTER AND INSTAGRAM.

AND PLEASE VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.ORG.

SLASH TO THE CONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

(MUSIC) FOUNDATION.

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF.

TO THE CONTRARY PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG.

FORWARD TO THE CONTRARY.

>>ANNOUNCER: BE MORE PBS