[♪♪] GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO KENTUCKY TONIGHT.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

JUST TWO DAYS LEFT IN THE 2025 KENTUCKY GENERAL ASSEMBLY SESSION.

LAWMAKERS RETURN TO WORK THURSDAY AND FRIDAY, TO CONSIDER OVERRIDING GOVERNOR ANDY BESHEAR’S VETOES.

THERE’S ALSO TIME TO PASS BILLS WITHOUT AN OPPORTUNITY TO OVERRIDE THE GOVERNOR’S VETOES.

TONIGHT, WE’RE LOOKING AT WHAT LAWMAKERS DID — AND DIDN’T DO — REGARDING GENDER IDENTITY AND ABORTION/MATERNAL HEALTH ISSUES.

WE’LL GET TO GENDER IDENTITY IN OUR NEXT HALF HOUR.

BUT FIRST, AN EXAMINATION OF HOUSE BILL 90 THAT STARTED OFF AS A MEASURE MAKING WAY FOR FREESTANDING BIRTH CENTERS.

IT WAS AMENDED TO ALSO INCLUDE LANGUAGE, THAT SUPPORTERS SAY, CLARIFY WHEN DOCTORS CAN TERMINATE A CRISIS OR COMPLEX PREGNANCY.

CRITICS CLAIM THE MEASURE WILL ENDANGER WOMEN EVEN MORE WITH DOCTORS DELAYING INTERVENTION UNTIL NEAR DEATH.

FOR PERSPECTIVES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE WE HAVE IN OUR STUDIO• ADDIA WUCHNER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF KENTUCKY RIGHT TO LIFE; AND TAMARRA WIEDER, KENTUCKY STATE DIRECTOR OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD ALLIANCE ADVOCATES.

WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU.

YOU CAN SEND YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS BY X — FORMERLY TWITTER -- AT PUB AFFAIRS KET.

SEND AN EMAIL TO K-Y TONIGHT AT K-E-T DOT O-R-G. OR USE THE WEB FORM AT K-E-T DOT O-R-G SLASH K-Y TONIGHT.

OR YOU CAN CALL 1-800-494-7605.

WELCOME.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE WITH US ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT TOPIC.

I WANT TO GET RIGHT TO MS. WUCHNER FIRST TO ASK YOU THIS MEASURE HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS PROVIDING CLARITY FOR THE EMERGENCY TREATMENT OF CONDITIONS LIKE MISCARRIAGE, ECTOPIC PREGNANCIES, SEPSIS AND HEMORRHAGE TO PREVENT MATERNAL DEATH OR PERMANENT ORGAN DAMAGE.

CLARIFYING SOME OF THE LEGAL AMBIGUITY THERE.

SO THAT DOCTORS CAN USE AS YOU WOULD SAY, THEIR BEST HOMELESS JUDGMENT.

CONSIDERING THAT KENTUCKY HAS A NEAR TOTAL BAN ON ABORTION THAT WENT INTO EFFECT IN 2022.

ARE MEDICAL ORGANIZATIONS ASKING FOR THIS MEASURE?

>> YES.

ACTUALLY IT WAS BROUGHT TO REPRESENTATIVE 19 MITTS BACK IN THE -- KNEE MISS BY Dr. GOLDBERG AND KENTUCKY ACOG.

>> Renee: AMERICAN COLLEGE OF OBSTETRICS AND GYNECOLOGY.

>> YES, IT WAS BROUGHT TO HIM TO LOOK AT WHAT THEY WERE ASKING.

AS YOU BEGIN TO LOOK AT IT, EVERYBODY WOULD LIKE TO REPEAL EVERYTHING AND WHAT WE GOT DOWN TO AS WE BEGAN TO ADDRESS IT ONCE THE SESSION STARTED, AND I KNOW Dr. GOL BERG -- Dr. GOLDBERG AND LOOKED AT THE MEASURE AND WHAT THEY WERE PROPOSING AND CALLED AND SPEAKING AS A NURSE SPEAKING PRACTITIONER TO PRACTITIONER, NURSE TO DOCTOR, WHAT ARE THE BIGGEST CONCERNS?

ARE THEY REAL?

AND WHAT DO WE NEED TO CLARIFY?

AND WE WENT THROUGH IT STEP-BY-STEP COMING UP WITH THE LANGUAGE.

IS IT PERFECT?

DID WE IDENTIFY THERE'S LOTS OF MULTIPLE DEFINITIONS IN THE LAW WE COULD CLEAR UP?

THIS IS A 30-DAY SESSION AND WHAT WAS MOST IMPORTANT TO DO FOR THE MATERNAL HEALTHCARE FOR THE WOMEN IN THIS COMMONWEALTH AND ALSO GIVE THE PHYSICIANS ASSURANCES THAT WHEN -- WHAT IS THE INTENTIONAL ABORTION AND WHAT IS NOT.

AND THAT'S WHAT WAS SET FORTH WHEN WE TOOK ON THE ISSUES AS YOU NAMED THEM OUT.

>> Renee: I THINK MANY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT THE 2022 TRIGGER LAW THAT WENT INTO EFFECT THAT PROVIDED AN EXCEPTION FOR THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IT WOULD HAVE COVERED ALL OF THOSE CONDITIONS.

RIGHT?

SO IS THIS MEASURE LEAST RESTRICTION THAN THE CURRENT UNDERSTANDING?

>> IT IS NOT LEAST OR LESS OR MORE.

IT'S CLARIFICATION.

BECAUSE THE TRIGGER LAW FOR THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER BUT AT THE SAME TIME, PHYSICIANSES WERE HESITANT I HEARD ON CASES AND Dr. GOLDBERG AND I SPOKE ABOUT IT THE PHYSICIAN NEEDED TO DO A PROCEDURE AND THE ANESTHESIOLOGIST WAS NOT SURE AND YOU HAVE THE HOSPITAL ATTORNEYS THAT COME INTO PLAY.

WHAT WAS IMPORTANT IS TO SAY THIS IS AN INTENTIONAL ABORTION AND THIS IS NOT AND MAKING SURE THERE'S NOT AMBIGUITY IN THE LAW WHEN IT COMES TO SPONTANEOUS MISCARRIAGE, MISCARRIAGE, ECTOPIC PREGNANCIES, MOLAR PREGNANCIES, SEPSIS, HEMORRHAGE SO THE DOCTORS HAVE THAT WEIGHT OFF THEIR SHOULDERS.

>> Renee: DOES THIS MAKE THE LANGUAGE MORE CLEAR?

>> NO.

IT DOES NOT.

AND I THINK IF YOU WANTED TO MAKE THE LANGUAGE CLEAR YOU WOULD HAVE USED CLEAR MEDICAL LANGUAGE NOT ANTIABORTION JARGON.

>> Renee: WHAT IS THE DESCRIPTION OF THOSE CONDITIONS IS THAT ANTIABORTION JARGON.

>> NO, THEY INSERTED LANGUAGE FETAL MATERNAL SEPARATION.

WHEN THEY CAN ACT FOR WHEN YOU HAVE PRESENT WITH MISCARRIAGE OR SEPSIS OR HEMORRHAGE.

AND WITHOUT, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO KNOW ONE OF THE MAIN PROBLEMS IS DOES NOT PROVIDE A DEFINITION WHAT IT MEANS TO SEPARATE A PREGNANT WOMAN FROM THE FETUS.

THIS IS NOT A MEDICAL TERM IT IS MISLEADING JARGON THAT IS PROMULGATED BY ANTIABORTION ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE INSTITUTE.

AND AGAIN WITH CLEAR -- WITHOUT CLEARER LANGUAGE IN THE LAW AND THIS SEPARATION PROCEDURE THAT IS LISTED IN THIS LAW, IT ISN'T BASED IN MEDICINE AND IT'S HARD TO SAY EXACTLY WHAT THE LAW WOULD REQUIRE BUT IT IS VERY TELLING THAT THE LAW REFERS VAGUELY TO AN INTERVENTION RATHER THAN A DILATION AND CARE TAJ OR ABORTION.

THE PROCEDURE THAT WOULD BE STANDARD CARE IN AN EMERGENCY CARE FOR PREGNANCIES.

FURTHER ACCORDING TO THE NATIONAL UMBRELLA ORGANIZATION, THE TERM FETAL MATERNAL SEPARATION IS USED BY OPPONENTS TO JUSTIFY OR MANDATE PERFORMING MEDICAL PROCEDURES THAT CARRY MORE RISK FOR THE PATIENT SUCH AS CAESARIAN DELIVERIES RATHER THAN ABORTION.

WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE ECTOPIC PREGNANCIES AND MOLAR PREGNANCIES IF THEY WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR YOU COULD HAVE MADE IT CLEAR BUT YOU DIDN'T.

AND WE HAD 85 DOCTORS AND MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS LAST WEEK SAY THIS WAS NOT CLEAR.

>> MAY I SAY SOMETHING?

IN WORKING WITH Dr. GOLDBERG, WE WERE NOT GOING TO BE PRESCRIPTIVE IN WHAT TYPE OF PROCEDURE TO DO FOR WHAT.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE IT DOES SAY SPONTANEOUS ABORTION.

IT CLEARS IT UP WHAT IS AN INTENTIONAL ABORTION AND WHAT IS NOT.

NOW, HOW THEY WANT TO ADDRESS A SPONTANEOUS ABORTION A THREATENING ABORTION, SEPSIS, THAT IS HOW THE PHYSICIAN IS GOING TO ADDRESS IT.

AND WHAT THAT PARTICULAR WOMAN NEEDS.

NOT BE PRESCRIPTIVE IN DOING A DNC OR PRESCRIBING WHAT THE PROCEDURE WOULD BE BECAUSE IT'S NOT NECESSARY.

IT WAS WHAT WERE THE CONDITIONS THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO ACT WITHOUT HAVING IT HELD OVER THEIR HEADS THAT THIS WAS AN ILLEGAL ABORTION IN KENTUCKY.

AND THAT WAS THE INTENT OF THE LAW AND EXACTLY WHAT WE DID.

>> YOU ARE BEING PRESCRIPTIVE ON PAGE 48 LINE 1 YOU DEFINE AN ABORTION EXCLUDING SEPARATION BUT IT REDEFINES MEDICAL PROCEDURES AND AT WORST IT WOULD BE READ AS PROHIBITING A DNC IN THE LIFE-SAVING CASES YOU SET OUT EVEN IF A DNC IS A STANDARD OF CARE.

EITHER WAY, THE VAGUENESS OF THIS BILL AND IS NOT IN LINE WITH MEDICAL STANDARDS WILL CREATE CONFUSION AND LEAD TO MORE PROVIDERS TO RELY ON CAESARIANS.

>> Renee: DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE THERE NEEDS TO BE CLARIFICATION OF THE LAW IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES OF A MEDICAL CRISIS PREGNANCY?

OR COMPLEX PREGNANCY THAT REQUIRES THESE TYPES OF INTERVENTIONS DO YOU AGREE THAT IS NEEDED?

>> WHAT WE HEARD FROM DOCTORS ACROSS THE STATE IS THAT THE LAWS AND THE FELONIES PUT IN PLACE LEAVE LITTLE ROOM FOR THEM TO OPERATE WITHOUT THEIR HOSPITAL ATTORNEYS AND ADMINISTRATORS.

BUT WHAT IS REALLY INTERESTING IS THAT IN THE COMMITTEE, THE FIRST COMMITTEE THAT WE HEARD IN, WHERE THIS BILL WAS PRESENTED THEY HAD NOT TALKED TO ANY HOSPITAL ATTORNEYS OR HOSPITAL ADMINISTRATORS.

THEY HAD NOT BROUGHT IN ANY OF THE MEDICAL EXPERTS THAT ACTUALLY WORK IN THIS FIELD AND ARE FACED WITH THIS ON A DAILY BASIS.

AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY DID BRING IN Dr. GOLDBERG BUT WHEN WE TALKED TO MEMBERS OF ACOG THEY WERE NOT AWARE OF THIS LEGISLATION MOVING FORWARD.

AND NATIONAL A GOING IS NOT SUPPORTIVE OF MOST OF WHAT IS IN THIS LEGISLATION AND THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

>> WHAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT TO SAY, TOO, THE LIST OF THINGS THAT ACOG WOULD HAVE WANTED WOULD HAVE BEEN TO REVERSE SOME OF THE LAWS INTENTIONAL ABORTION AND THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

THE REPRESENTATIVE SAID THAT ON THE FLOOR.

KENTUCKY IS A PRO-LIFE STATE WE ARE NOT GOING TO ROLLBACK THOSE PROCEDURES BUT WE WANTED TO DO AND I THINK THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY THOUGHTFULLY WORKING WITH THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY, WORKING WITH ACOG AT THE TABLE, I WAS THERE THAT MORNING WITH ACOG Dr. GOLDBERG WAS ON SCREEN AND MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WORKING ON LANGUAGE THAT WAS TO BRING CLARIFICATION WHICH SEEMED TO BE IMPORTANT TO THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY AND ACTUALLY WAS TAKEN TO THE MINORITY PARTY THE NEXT DAY.

THIS WAS EARLY IN MID-FEBRUARY TO LOOK AT.

AND I THINK I MENTIONED IT TO YOU WHEN I SAW IN THE HALL FEBRUARY 18TH WE CAN TAKE AWARE THE FEAR AND MISINFORMATION AND THE CONCERNS THAT ARE THERE IN THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY.

>> WELL, INDEED, Dr. JEFFREY GOLDBERG SAID WHEN HE TESTIFIED RECENTLY DURING A COMMITTEE HEARING THAT THE LANGUAGE ISN'T PERFECT AND IT STILL NEEDS MORE WORK.

THE COMMON SENSE QUESTION MAYBE WHY RUSH IT?

WHY NOT GET THE LANGUAGE RIGHT THE FIRST TIME?

>> WELL, BECAUSE WE HAVE A 30-DAY SESSION AND WE SEE MEDIA WOMEN ARE GOING TO DIE.

MOST IMPORTANT THING WAS TO MAKE SURE TO GIVE CLARITY TO THOSE MEDICAL CONDITIONS.

THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF SPONTANEOUS ABORTIONS WE WOULD CALL A MISCARRIAGE, INTENTIONAL MISCARRIAGE TO SPELL THOSE OUT.

SEPSIS, NO PATIENT WHEN SOMEONE SAID TO ME, THEY HAD A DOCTOR THAT WAS SO CONCERNED HE WAS WAITING FOR HIS PATIENT TO SPIKE A TEMPERATURE WHEN SHE WAS THREATENING A MISCARRIAGE THAT SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN AND WE DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN FOR ANY WOMEN IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY.

THERE WAS A LOT OF DISCUSSION ON WHAT WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT TO ADDRESS AT THIS TIME?

>> ADDIA, THESE PROBLEMS EXISTED WE CAME TO YOU BACK IN 2022 AND WE SAID THE DOCTORS TOLD YOU THAT THE OMNIBUS ANTIABORTION BILL, THE TRIGGER BANS ALL THE BANS WERE GOING TO CAUSE THESE PROBLEMS.

YOU DIDN'T LISTEN TO US THEN.

YOU DIDN'T BRING US INTO THOSE CONVERSATIONS.

YOU FLAT OUT IGNORED THE SCIENCE AND ALL OF THE STATISTICS.

THE SAME DOCTORS ARE TELLING YOU NOW THAT THIS ISN'T GOING TO WORK.

AND THE LEGAL CHANGES HOW THEY CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES IN COURT WILL MAKE IT HARDER.

AND YOU ARE NOT MAKING -- >> ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS WAS TO MAKE SURE REASONABLE MEDICAL WAS INCLUDED AND THAT MAKES IT OBJECTIVE AND THAT IS EXACTLY.

>> IT'S WHAT MAKES IT WORSE FOR THEM.

WHEN WE LOOK TO OTHER STATES THAT HAVE IT LET'S TAKE TEXAS FOR EXAMPLE.

TEXAS USES THAT SAME PRACTICE AND IT HAS BEEN WHAT STOPPED THEM FROM BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE ABORTION CARE IN LIFE-THREATENING, LIFE-SAVING CASES LET'S TAKE COX FOR EXAMPLE.

A JUDGE -- >> DEFINE IT IN THE LAW.

WE DEFINED REASONABLE MEDICAL IN THIS PIECE OF LAW RIGHT NOW.

BECAUSE WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE IT WAS CLEAR.

>> Renee: HOW IS IT DEFINED?

>> BECAUSE REASONABLE MEDICAL INTERVENTION INDUCE.

LET ME GIVE YOU THE DEFINITION.

>> WE ARE USING THE SAME TERMINOLOGY, THE SAME MEDICAL TERMINOLOGY.

>> REASONABLE MEDICAL JUDGMENT THE RANGE OF CONCLUSIONS ARE MEDICAL RECOMMENDATIONS THAT A LICENSED MEDICAL PRACTITIONER WITH SIMILAR SUFFICIENT TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE MAY COMMUNICATE TO THE PATIENT UPON CURRENT AVAILABLE MEDICAL EVIDENCE.

THIS IS OBJECTIVE AND NO LONGER SUBJECTIVE AND THAT WAS THE PROBLEM BEFORE IN PAST LAW.

THIS IS STANDARD IN FOR THE LAW.

WE DID TALK TO ATTORNEYS.

>> WE TALKED TO ATTORNEYS, TOO, WHO WORK ON THE CASES.

THESE ARE TAKING THE ABILITY OF DOCTORS TO USE GOOD FAITH JUDGMENT IN MOMENTS OF EMERGENCY AND GIVING IT OVER TO THE JUDGES TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THEY ACTED IN THE APPROPRIATE REASONABLE.

>> TOOK AWAY.

>> I KNOW.

I KNOW.

>> THIS WOULD BE A REASONABLE MEDICAL OBJECTIVE NOT SUBJECTIVE CONCLUSION.

>> THEY ARE TAKING AWAY -- >> BASED ON MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE CASE AS IT'S PRESENTED.

AND IN TORT LAW THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FROM THE ATTORNEYS WE WERE WORKING WITH.

>> THE ATTORNEYS SAID IT'S GOING TO TAKE AWAY THE POWERS OF PROVIDERS AND PUT IT IN THE HANDS OF JUDGES.

AND WE'VE SEEN IT PLAY ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND SPECIFICALLY IN TEXAS WHERE PROVIDERS ARE NOT ABLE TO DEFEND THEIR CHOICES FOR ABORTION CARE OR FIGHT FOR PATIENTS IN THE COURTS.

LIKE WITH KATE COX.

>> Renee: EXPLAIN TO US WHO KATE COX IS?

>> KATE COX WAS SEEKING AN ABORTION FOR A LIFE-THREATENING NEED.

HER DOCTOR, Dr. CARSON APPEALED TO THE COURTS THE SUPREME COURT DENIED HER THE ABILITY.

>> IN WHAT STATE?

>> IN TEXAS.

THE TEXAS ABORTION BAN FOR INSTANCE, PROVIDES A SO-CALLED EXCEPTION FOR INSTANCES WHERE A PREGNANT PERSON IS EXPERIENCING A LIFE-THREATENING PHYSICAL CONDITION AGGRAVATED OR CAUSED ARISING FROM PREGNANCY.

THE REASONABLE MEDICAL JUDGMENT REFERS TO A SPECIFIC STANDARD OF LAW THAT RELIES ON A COMMON PRACTICE IN A STATE OR REGION.

CURRENT KENTUCKY LAW IS AMENDED TO LOOK TO A PROVIDER'S GOOD FAITH CLINICAL JUDGMENT IN DETERMINING WHETHER THAN ABORTION IS NECESSARY.

THE CHANGE IN THE STATUTE WOULD REMOVE THE DEFERENCE AND LEAVE THE ASSESSMENT OF REASONABLENESS IN THE HANDS OF AA COURT CREATING INCENTIVES FOR A HOSPITAL TO BE CAUTIOUS OR CONSERVATIVE.

FOR THE COX CASE SPECIFICALLY, IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THEY DENIED HER THE ABORTION.

BECAUSE THEY DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HER DOCTORS REASONABLE JUDGMENT MET THE SUFFICIENT STANDARDS EVEN THOUGH SHE NEEDED THE ABORTION.

>> Renee: WHAT SHOULD THE LANGUAGE BE?

>> THEY NEED TO LEAVE IT IN THE GOOD FAITH WHICH GIVES MORE POWER TO THE PROVIDER TO DEFEND THEIR NEEDS.

AND WE'VE SEEN THAT PLAY OUT.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE'RE MIRRORING THE LANGUAGE IN TEXAS WITH THE BILL PUT OUT WITH THE LIFE-THREATENING AND THE LIFE-SAVING FOR MISCARRIAGES AND SEPSIS AND HEMORRHAGE, WE ARE ADDING THIS LANGUAGE IN THAT IS GOING TO TIE THE HANDS OF PROVIDERS JUST AS IT HAS IN TEXAS.

BUT JUST LAST WEEK, A REPUBLICAN FILED LEGISLATION TO REMOVE THAT LANGUAGE, BECAUSE IT HAS TIED THE HANDS OF PROVIDERS IN TEXAS VMENT.

>> WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT TEXAS IT'S KENTUCKY.

>> IT IS RELEVANT BECAUSE IT IS CREATED CONFUSION.

>> THE FISHIONS -- PHYSICIANS CAME.

>> Dr. GOLDBERG IS ONE PHYSICIAN.

>> REFLECTING ON HIS EXPERIENCE AS POLICY FOR KENTUCKY ACOG.

>> HE IS A PHYSICIAN.

>> AND WHAT THEY NEEDED TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES TO EASE SOME OF THE CONFUSION AND CONCERNS THAT THE PHYSICIAN COMMUNITY HAD.

WE HAVE NOT GOT THEM ALL CLEARED UP BUT THESE WERE IMPORTANT.

>> Renee: THE KENTUCKY CHAPTER HAS DIFFERENT CONCERNS PERHAPS THAN THE NATIONAL ACOG ASSOCIATION, RIGHT?

SINCE THE NATIONAL GROUP DOES NOT ENDORSE THIS LEGISLATION?

>> PROBABLY CORRECT.

AND NATIONALLY THEY DON'T ALWAYS ENDORSE ALL THE RESTRICTIONS WE HAVE CURRENTLY ON ABORTION HERE IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY.

BUT THAT'S NOT -- THIS WASN'T ABOUT ABORTION LAW IT WAS ABOUT CLARIFICATION, MATERNAL HEALTH.

IT BEGAN WITH THE PREGNANCY THE FREE STANDING PREGNANCY CENTERS.

>> BUT IT IS ABOUT ABORTION IN THE END.

>> ONE SECTION ON CLARIFICATION ON MEDICAL MATERNAL HEALTH AND THE NEXT SECTION ON PERRY NATAL PALLIATIVE CARE WHICH IS IMPORTANT WHEN A WOMAN IS EXPERIENCING A PREGNANCY FACING A FETAL ANOMALY OR THE CHILD MAY DIE SHORTLY BEFORE OR AFTER THEIR TERM.

WE HAVE PROVIDERS IN THE STATE AND WE WANTED ALL WOMEN TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY.

>> Renee: WHY NOT BILL STAND ON ITS OWN.

WHY ATTACH TO GO TO THE PREFANNEDDING BIRTH CENTERS MEASURE?

>> RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

WE HAD PRESENTED IT EARLY ON.

AND TO THE MINORITY PARTY.

AND TO WE TALKED ABOUT IT IN THE HALL AND THEY RESISTED THE BILL.

WE HAD TO FIND ANOTHER WAY TO GET IT THROUGH.

WE WERE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

AND BY -- WE DID PUT THE LANGUAGE ON 414 A PALLIATIVE CARE WHEN IT HIT THE FLOOR THEY LOADED IT UP WITH MORE AMENDMENTS TO IT.

WE NEEDED THIS TO GO THROUGH BECAUSE IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR THE MATERNAL HEALTH OF THE WOMEN OF THIS COMMONWEALTH.

>> Renee: HOW MANY WOMEN HAS THIS IMPACTED?

NUMBERS YOU CAN PUT TO THIS?

>> I DON'T HAVE NUMBERS.

BUT WE DO KNOW THAT THIS IMPACTS KENTUCKIANS PEOPLE ARE GETTING PREGNANT THEY HAVE COMPLICATIONS ARE A FACT OF LIFE WHEN YOU ARE PREGNANT.

AND I THINK THAT THE CHALLENGES AND UNCERTAINTIES IS PART OF WHAT THIS BILL IS DESIGNED TO CREATE.

THE GOAL OF THIS LEGISLATION IS TO DIVIDE THE PUBLIC THAT SUPPORTS ACCESS TO REPRODUCTIVE HEALTHCARE AND DEEM SOME PEOPLE AND SOME CONDITIONS MORE DESERVING OF TREATMENT.

AND I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING WE REALLY HAVE TO COMBAT.

>> Renee: THIS QUESTION OR COMMENT FROM A VIEWER AND I WILL READ IT AS PRESENTED.

WHY CAN'T ANYONE AT PLANNED PARENTHOOD THE WORLD'S LARGEST PROVIDER OF INTENTIONAL CHILD ELIMINATIONS CALL THE BABY A BABY.

FETUS IS IN LATIN IS CHILD.

>> THAT IS AN UNFAIR QUESTION.

PEOPLE COME TO PLANNED PARENTHOOD FOR A VARIETY OF HEALTH SERVICES IN KENTUCKY WE PROVIDE LIFE-SAVING LIFE AFFIRMING CARE FOR A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT THINGS.

WE PROVIDE GENDER AFFIRMING HEALTHCARE.

WE PROVIDE STI TREATMENT, BIRTH CONTROL AND SEXUAL HEALTH SCREENINGS.

I THINK THAT IS AN UNFAIR QUESTION.

WE ARE AN ADVOCATE FOR ABORTION CARE BECAUSE THAT IS HEALTH SAVING AND LIFE AFFIRMING.

>> Renee: THIS QUESTION TO YOU MS. WUCHNER.

QUOTE, WHY DON'T THE RIGHT TO LIFERS ADOPT THE KIDS THAT WOMEN ARE FORCED TO CARRY WITHOUT STATE OR FEDERAL ASSISTANCE WHY ARE THE LIVES OF WOMEN NOT IMPORTANT TO THEM?

>> OF COURSE THE FACT WE'RE HERE TODAY WITH THE MATERNAL HEALTH BILL MEANS THE LIVES OF WOMEN ARE IMPORTANT.

AS A NURSE THEY ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

AGAIN WE PROMOTE IT FROM DAY ONE ADOPTION NOT JUST AN OPTION BUT TO HELP PARENTS WITH ADOPTION.

THAT HAS NEVER BEEN SOMETHING THAT PRO-LIFERS, I CAN TELL YOU MULTIPLE FAMILIES RIGHT HERE IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY WHO NOT ONLY HAVE ADOPTED ONE OR TWO BUT THREE OR FOUR CHILDREN.

AND SO CAN WE DO MORE FOR ADOPTION?

DO WE WANT TO WORK ON ADOPTION?

ADOPTION IS EXPENSIVE WE KNOW THAT.

BUT WE HAVE WORKED ON THOSE ISSUES AND WORKED ON IT AS A LEGISLATOR.

SO I KIND OF OBJECT TO THAT A LITTLE BIT.

IT'S LIKE ALWAYS THROWN OUT THAT WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CHILDREN THAT ARE BORN BUT WE DO.

PROVIDING SCHOLARSHIPS FOR MOMS WHETHER THEY KEEP THEIR CHILD OR NOT OR PLACE THAT BABY FOR ADOPTION OR NOT HELPING FOR SCHOLARSHIPS SO NO MOTHER HAS TO CHOOSE BETWEEN HER CHILD AND EDUCATION.

WHEN YOU ARE SAYING RIGHT TO LIFERS MAKING SURE THAT WOMEN HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION.

AS AN ORGANIZATION, I'M PRESENTING THAT POINT.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT SOMETIMES WE ARE ALWAYS PUT ON OPPOSITE ENDS AND QUESTIONS LIKE THAT TAKE AWAY OUR HUMANITY AT TIMES.

>> Renee: AND THOSE ARE VIEWER QUESTIONS.

I WANTED TO MAKE THAT CLEAR.

>> A LOT OF TIMES WE TALK ABOUT THINGS WE COULD AGREE ON IN TRYING TO ADDRESS WOMEN'S HEALTH.

>> Renee: CAN YOU AGREE IN THE FIVE MINUTES WE HAVE REMAINING?

A CONVERSATION THAT HAS BEEN HAD IN KENTUCKY FOR SOMETIME WITHOUT MUCH TRACTION ARE EXEMPTIONS FOR RAPE AND INCEST.

MS. WIEDER WE KNOW WHERE SHE STANDS.

DO YOU SUPPORT SUCH EXEMPTIONS AND WOULD YOU CONSIDER SUCH LEGISLATION AND ADVOCATING FOR IT IN THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION?

>> FROM KENTUCKY RIGHT TO LIFE WE DON'T LOOK MOVING BACKWARDS FROM THE LAWS WE HAVE.

>> Renee: WHAT IS THE OPPOSITION TO -- >> BECAUSE IT IS A LIFE AND EVERY LIFE HAS DIGNITY EVEN IF YOU WERE AT OUR RALLY WHEN I LOOK AT CRYSTAL WHEN I ASKED CRYSTAL YOUR MOTHER WAS RAPED AT KNIFEPOINT YOUR MOTHER WAS RAPED AT KNIFEPOINT IN A HOTEL BY THE BAND BY A MUSICIAN THAT IS HER FATHER.

AND I SAID, DID YOU EVER ASK HER WHY AND SHE SAID I DID.

AND MY MOTHER LOOKED AT ME AND SAID YOU WERE INNOCENT.

WHEN WE POLLED INDIVIDUALS AT OUR STATE FAIR MUTUAL TELL SETTINGS, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A CHILD CAN SEE A LOVING EMBRACE OF PARENTS OR AN ACT OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE ANY LESS DIGNITY AND THEY SAID NO.

THEY ARE EQUAL IN DIGNITY.

IT IS A TOUGH ISSUE BUT WE DO SUPPORT IS THE PROSECUTION OF ANYONE WHO HARMS A CHILD OR A WOMAN SEXUAL ASSAULT TO THE MOST DEGREE.

IF RAPE IS OCCURRING IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY, WHY AREN'T WE SEEING MULTIPLE PROSECUTIONS.

>> Renee: MS. WIEDER?

>> WE KNOW THERE HAVE BEEN 3,000 RAPE RELATED PREGNANCIES SINCE ROE.

OUR ABORTION BAN IS EXTREME IN KENTUCKY AND LOOKING LIKE IT'S GOING TO GET HARDER FOR PEOPLE TO ACCESS EMERGENCY CARE WHEN THEY NEED IT.

OUR LANDSCAPE NEEDS TO CHANGE.

AND I THINK THAT WE NEED A PATHWAY FORWARD FOR PEOPLE TO GET ACCESS TO ABORTION CARE.

AND ESPECIALLY FOR ANYBODY IN AN EMERGENCY SITUATION, THOSE WITH RAPE AND INCEST.

AND THOSE WHO NEED ACCESS TO CARE REGARDLESS OF THEIR REASON.

I THINK WE NEED TO BROADEN OUR PATHWAYS FORWARD TO ABORTION CARE.

I DEFINITELY HAVE -- I'D LIKE TO SEE ABORTION CARE BROADENED.

>> Renee: BROADENED TO HOW WIDE?

>> YOU KNOW, I'M ON THE OPPOSITE END OF ADDIA.

>> RAPE AND INCEST, THEIR STATEMENT IS ALWAYS THAT IS JUST THE BEGINNING.

>> LOOK, ABORTION CARE IS HEALTHCARE AND I'M NOT GOING TO BE APOLOGETIC ON THAT.

>> Renee: ANY LIMITATIONS ON THAT ACCESS?

>> THAT IS BETWEEN THE DOCTOR AND THE PATIENT DEPENDING ON THE NEED OF CARE AND IF IT'S EMERGENCY HEALTHCARE THAT IS SOMETHING BETWEEN THE DOCTOR AND THE PATIENT.

BUT WHAT I THINK IS MORE SUBSTANTIVE TO THIS BILL IS THAT THERE ARE 85 DOCTORS OUT THERE WHO SAY THIS IS NOT CREATE A PATHWAY TO ANY FORM OF CLARIFICATION AND WE NEED TO BE HAVING REAL TANGIBLE CONVERSATIONS ON HOW WE FIX OUR DRACONIAN BAN THAT IS GOING TO TAKE US INTO A FUTURE WHERE WE'RE GOING TO BE BACK IN TWO YEARS, ADDIA, TALKING ABOUT HOW YOU DIDN'T LISTEN TO THE DOCTORS AGAIN.

>> Renee: WOULD YOU BE OPEN TO LANGUAGE TWEAKING IN THE NEXT SESSION THAT YOU TWO COULD COME TOGETHER AND BE COMPROMISE LANGUAGE TO HOUSE BILL 90.

>> I WOULDN'T BE ADDRESSING IT WITH PLANNED PATTERN HOOD BUT CONVERSATIONS WITH PHYSICIANS WE LOOKED AT THE LAW.

THERE WERE AREAS WE SAID WE NEED TO CLEAN THIS UP.

SO WE ARE -- WE'VE HAD THAT OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT COMING BACK TOGETHER SITTING AT THE TABLE AND WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO.

WHERE -- AMBIGUITY IN THE LAW CAUSES CONFUSION AND WE WERE TRYING TO REMOVE AS MUCH AS WE COULD AS A START AND THAT WAS IMPORTANT IN THE 30-DAY SESSION FOR THE MATERNAL HEALTHCARE FOR THE WOMEN IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY.

NEXT STEP IS ANOTHER CONVERSATION.

>> THAT IS WHAT CONFUSES ME.

BECAUSE IF THIS WAS SUCH AN IMPORTANT BILL IT'S BEEN HURTING KENTUCKIANS FOR THREE YEARS, AND THE LANGUAGE YOU USED IS NOT BASED IN SCIENCE IT IS NOT GROUNDED IN MEDICINE AND WHILE I APPRECIATE THAT Dr. GOLDBERG WAS THERE YOU DID NOT BRING THE DOCTORS FACING THIS CRISIS DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

AND USING LANGUAGE THAT IS BASED FROM MEDICINE AND SUPPORTS THEIR WORK.

WE DESERVE BETTER.

KENTUCKIANS DESERVE BETTER.

MY AREA IS THIS.

AND SO WE DESERVE BETTER KENTUCKIANS DESERVE RESPECT NOT MORE BILLS THAT ARE PASSED THROUGH IN 11TH HOUR SHENANIGANS.

>> Renee: WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE, LADIES I APPRECIATE YOU BOTH COMING TO TALK THIS THROUGH.

AND IMAGINE THAT THE GOVERNOR WILL HAVE A SAY SO AS WELL AND THE LEGISLATURE AGAIN.

WE WILL BE FOLLOWING THAT AND WE THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE THIS EVENING.

AFTER THIS BREAK, WE’LL DISCUSS LEGISLATION IMPACTING TRANSGENDER RIGHTS AND LIMITING ACCESS TO HORMONE THERAPY AND GENDER REASSIGNMENT SURGERIES.

STAY WITH US.

[♪♪] WELCOME BACK TO KENTUCKY TONIGHT.

PART TWO OF OUR DISCUSSION.

GOVERNOR ANDY BESHEAR VETOED A BILL THAT REVERSED HIS EXECUTIVE ORDER BANNING CONVERSION THERAPY AND KEEPS MEDICAID FROM COVERING TRANSGENDER-AFFIRMING MEDICAL CARE.

THAT BILL IS HOUSE BILL 495.

THERE’S ANOTHER BILL FOR THE GOVERNOR TO REVIEW SENATE BILL TWO• THAT PROHIBITS KENTUCKY’S PRISONS AND JAILS FROM PAYING FOR AND PROVIDING HORMONE THERAPY TO TRANSGENDER INMATES.

JOINING US FOR THIS SEGMENT ARE.. NOW JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT THOSE TWO MEASURES ARE... DAVID WALLS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE FAMILY FOUNDATION; CHRIS HARTMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE FAIRNESS CAMPAIGN; COLIN SMOTHERS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE COUNCIL ON BIBLICAL MANHOOD AND WOMANHOOD; AND EMMA CURTIS, LGBTQ+ ADVOCATE AND LEXINGTON-FAYETTE CO. COUNCILWOMAN.

WE STILL WANT YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS.

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WELCOME, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

A QUICK SWITCH OUT OF GUESTS FOR THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC.

WE WON'T WASTE MUCH TIME.

HOUSE BILL 495 FIRST.

AND I MENTIONED WHAT THAT DOES.

I FIRST WANT TO HAVE OUR VIEWERS UNDERSTAND IF THEY MAYBE NEW TO THIS TOPIC, CHRIS DEFINE FOR US WHAT CONVERSION THERAPY IS?

>> IT'S THE PRACTICE OF TRYING TO CONVINCE AN LGBTQ YOUNG PERSON THAT THEY CAN SOMEHOW TURN, NOT BE LGBTQ ANY LONGER.

NOT BE GAY, BISEXUAL OR TRANSGENDER AND THIS PRACTICE ONLY LEADS TO HARM FOR LGBTQ YOUTH.

IT'S NOT JUST SNAKE OIL IT'S SNAKE VENOM.

NOTHING DESTROYS FAMILIES AND HARMS LGBTQ YOUTH MORE THAN THE DANGEROUS PRACTICE OF CONVERGENCE THERAPY WHAT ALICE KERR USED TO CALL CONVERSION TORTURE.

>> Renee: A REPUBLICAN FROM THE LEXINGTON FAYETTE COUNTY AREA.

WHAT IS INVOLVEDDED IN CONVERSION THERAPY AND WHY DO YOU FEEL THAT IT SHOULD BE PRACTICED?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO STATE THAT WHAT THE GOVERNOR DID HERE, SEEKING TO USE HIS EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY TO BAN CONVERSION THERAPY WAS A TREMENDOUS OVERREACH.

AND WE'RE CERTAINLY THANKFUL THAT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAS TAKEN ACTION TO REIN THAT ACTION IN.

AT ITS CORE, THE OTHER SIDE CAN USE TERMS LIKE TORTURE.

THAT IS NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

READ THE DEFINITION OF IN THE GOVERNOR'S EXECUTIVE ORDER AND WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS I AONE-SIDED COUNSELING BAN.

IT WOULD SAY IF YOU SOUGHT TO COUNSEL SOMEONE TO AFFIRM THE REALITY OF WHO THEY ARE TO AFFIRM THEM IN THEIR BIOLOGICAL SEX THAT YOU COULD LOSE YOUR LICENSE.

LIKE WISE, YOU COULD COUNSEL SOMEONE TOWARDS A GENDER TRANSITION WHICH IS NOW ILLEGAL UNDER SB150.

THE GOVERNOR'S COUNSELING BAN WAS A ONE-SIDED ACTION.

IT SUPPRESSES FREE SPEECH AND IT TRAMPLES THE RIGHTS OF PARENTS TO SEEK OUT COUNSELING THEY DESIRE FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

I CAN'T THINK OF ANOTHER AREA OF COUNSELING WHERE WE WOULD SAY THAT CAN YOU ONLY COUNSEL SOMEONE ONE WAY.

IF A PERSON, A CHILD OR A PARENT DESIREDDED TO GET COUNSELING FROM SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM A PROBLEM THEY WANT TO GET GET HELP FROM WE CAN ONLY AFFIRM THEM IN WHAT THEY ARE DESIRING.

>> IF IT'S MEDICAL MALPRACTICE WHY WOULD YOU ENCOURAGE IT?

CHILDREN WHO ARE SUBJECTED TO IT ARE MORE THAN TWICE AS LIKELY TO ASEPTEMBER SUICIDE.

WHAT PARENT WOULD SEND THEIR CHILD INTO TORTURE.

>> ALL THE DATA SHOWS WHEN YOU PUSH A CHILD TOWARDS TRANSITION.

>> ALL THE DATA SHOWS THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO HAVE DEPRESSION, SELF HARM AND SUICIDAL IDEATION AND UNFORTUNATELY COMPLETING SUICIDE.

>> MS. CURTIS YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THIS WE WANT TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT WHAT GOVERNOR BESHEAR EXECUTIVE ORDER OWE DOES.

IT PREVENTS THE USE OF STATE FUNDS FOR CONVERSION THERAPY ON MINORS.

THIS IS NOT A QUESTION OF A MINISTER OR A COUNSELOR TALKING TO A PARISHIONER OR CLIENT ABOUT THE OPTIONS THAT SOMEBODY WHO IS EXPERIENCING A QUESTIONING THEIR IDENTITY OR EXPERIENCING GENDER DYSMORPHIA CAN PURSUE.

THIS IS A BAN ON SAYING TO SOMEBODY WHO KNOWS WHO THEY ARE, YOU ARE NOT THAT AND WE ARE GOING TO TORTURE YOU OUT OF BEING THAT WAY.

>> Renee: WHY USE THE WORD TORTURE?

>> EVERY PERSON I SPOKED TO WHO EXPERIENCE CONVERSION THERAPY COMES BACK TO THAT WORD.

SOME BEAR PHYSICAL SCARES NOT JUST THE EMOTIONAL SCARES THAT THIS -- SCARS THAT THIS PRACTICE INFLICTS ON THEM.

>> Renee: YOU ARE SAYING PHYSICAL HARM IS USED?

>> IN SOME CASES.

TO DAVID'S POINT WE HAVE PROTECTIONS IN PLACE FOR MEDICAL PROVIDERS FOR MENTAL HEALTH HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS IN ALL AREAS.

A MENTAL HEALTHCARE PROVIDER CANNOT TELL A CLIENT THAT OH, YOU'RE DEPRESSED AND SUICIDAL OBVIOUSLY THAT IS YOUR REALITY AND YOU SHOULD PURSUE SUICIDE.

THAT IS NOT AN APPROPRIATE THING TO DO.

SO WE PROTECT OUR PATIENTS FROM SAID PRACTICES.

THAT'S WHAT GOVERNOR BESHEAR WAS ATTEMPTING TO DO FOR MINORS IN THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER.

>> Renee: Mr. SMOTHERS HOW DO YOU LOOK AT CONVERSION THERAPY?

AND IS IT TORTURE AND DO YOU AGREE WITH THE USE OF PHYSICAL HARM IN ORDER TO CONVINCE SOMEONE OR PERSUADE THEM TO BE HETERONORMATIVE.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A STAND BACK FOR A MINUTE.

AS A MINISTER GOD CREATED THEM MALE AND FEMALE.

AFFIRM AND QUOTED BY JESUS IN MATTHEW.

>> AND NOT AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION.

>> SO WHEN WE HEAR ABOUT CONVERSION THERAPY IT IS AN IRONIC USE OF THE WORD CONVERSION THERE'S BEEN A PRIOR CONVERSION AND THAT IS THE CONVERSION FROM A YOUNG MALE OR YOUNG FEMALE TO IDENTIFYING WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX AND THEN UNDERGOING TREATMENTS OR HORMONE THERAPIES.

AND MY CONVICTION IS ALONG WITH THE FOUNDING OF THIS COUNTRY, THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE WE HAVE THE LAW OF NATURE AND THE LAW OF NATURE'S GOD.

AND THAT IS THAT SEX IS NOT ASSIGNED AT BIRTH.

SEX IS DETERMINED AT CONCEPTION.

YOU CAN SEX AND EMBRYO AND IT CAN BE DETERMINED MALE OR FEMALE FROM THE BEGINNING OF CONCEPTION.

IT'S GOD WHO ASSIGNS MALE AND FEMALE AND WHO ARE WE TO ACT OTHERWISE.

IT'S GOD WHO MADE US NOT OURSELVES.

IN OTHER WORDS WHAT ANDY BESHEAR IS DOING WITH THE EXECUTIVE ORDER, WHAT THESE THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER IF IT WERE TO STAND THIS VETO ON HB495, IS ACTUALLY PREVENT CHRISTIAN CLINICIANS, CHRISTIAN COUNSELORS FROM ADDRESSING THE FIRST CONVERSION, THE CONVERSION AWAY FROM THEIR SEX DETERMINATION AT CONCEPTION.

>> FROM ENGAGING IN MEDICAL MALPRACTICE.

>> RESPECTFULLY PASTOR, GLA LAYIONS TEACHING US THERE IS NO MALE NOR FEMALE FOR ALL ONE IN JESUS CHRIST THIS IS NOT A SHOW WE'RE HERE TO DEBATE THEOLOGY WE'RE HERE TO ANTIBIOTIC PUBLIC POLICY AND THE UNITED STATES PROTECTS YOUR FREEDOM OF RELIGION TO BELIEVE THAT.

BUT IT DOES NOT PROTECT YOUR RIGHT TO FORCE THAT NARROW DEFINITION INTO LAW.

>> WHICH IS WHY I'M THANKFUL FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP'S EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT DEFINES NOW SEX BASED IN BIOLOGY BASED IN OUR CHROMOSOMAL REALITY WHICH ANYBODY CAN TAKE ONE OF THESE TESTS AND THEY CAN BE DETERMINED THIS IS MALE OR OR FEMALE AND WE CAN ACT BASED ON THE SCIENCE.

>> NOW, THEY SUPPORT SCIENCE.

I BELIEVE THAT.

>> WE CAN ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT WHAT IT BEST FOR THESE YOUNG CHILDREN, MALES AND FEMALES AND YUCK ADULTS AND EVEN THOSE ADULTS IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY.

>> Renee: THE OTHER PART OF THAT BILL, ALSO BANS MEDICAID FROM FUNDING GENDER AFFIRMING CARE LIKE HORMONE THERAPY AND GENDER REASSIGNMENT SURGERY WAS THAT ALREADY HAPPENING?

WAS MEDICAID PAYING FOR THAT?

>> YES.

THERE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF GENDER AFFIRMING CARE THAT STATE MEDICAID HAS BEEN COVERING, LARGELY HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY WHICH IS MEDICALLY NECESSARY HEALTHCARE FOR TRANSGENDER KENTUCKIANS AND WHAT THEY ALLOWED TO BE SLIPPED IN AT THE LAST MOMENT IS A BAN THAT IS GOING TO CUTOFF THOUSANDS OF TRANSGENDER KENTUCKIANS FROM THE HEALTHCARE THEY NEED.

>> Renee: THE PHRASE MEDICALLY NECESSARY.

THERE WAS A LOT OF DEBATE ON THE HOUSE AND SENATE FLOOR ABOUT THAT.

SOME BELIEVE THIS IS AN ELECTIVE PROCEDURE.

AND NOT MEDICALLY NECESSARY.

MS. CURTIS TELL US WHY IT'S ONE AND NOT THE OTHER?

>> FIRST OFF I WANT TO CLARIFY SOMETHING WHICH IS THAT KENTUCKY MEDICAID HAS NEVER COVERED GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERIES FOR TRANSGENDER PEOPLE.

IT HAS ONLY COVERED HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY CLINICALLY ACCEPTED COURSE OF TREATMENT FOR GENDER DYSMORPHIA ACCEPTED BY EVERY MAJOR MEDICAL ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD FOR DECADES.

I KNOW THIS IS LIFE-SAVING CARE BECAUSE I'M A TRANS KENTUCKIAN WHO RECEIVED HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY COVERED BY MEDICAID.

THIS IS NOT A HYPOTHETICAL.

THIS IS SOMETHING WHERE MY DOCTOR RECOGNIZED THAT I WAS EXPERIENCING DAILY SUICIDAL IDEATION.

I SOUGHT COUNSELING.

I SOUGHT BELIEVE IT OR NOT, COUNSELING THROUGH THE CHURCH AS WELL.

AND WE DETERMINED THAT THIS WAS THE APPROPRIATE COURSE OF ACTION.

MY DOCTOR ASSESSED ME AND SAID THIS IS MEDICALLY NECESSARY AND PRESCRIBED ME HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY.

PRIOR TO THAT MEDICATION I WAS EXPERIENCING SUICIDAL IDEATION ON A DAILY BASIS AND SINCE I BEGAN THAT COURSE OF MEDICATION I DON'T EXPERIENCE IT AT ALL ANYMORE.

THIS ISN'T A QUESTION ABOUT IS MEDICAID COVERING COSMETIC SURGERIES FOR PEOPLE TO MAKE THEMSELVES MORE BEAUTIFUL OR ATTRACTIVE.

THIS IS A QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER WE ARE GOING TO PROVIDE THE ACCEPTED TREATMENT THAT HAS BEEN ENDORSED BY EVERY MAJOR MEDICAL ASSOCIATION IN THE WORLD FOR DECADES FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME.

>> Renee: Mr.

WALLS.

>> SO YOU ARE SEEING ACROSS THE WORLD A RADICAL PULLBACK FROM TRANSGENDER IDEOLOGY.

FROM PUSHING THESE TYPES OF TREATMENTS FROM SURGICALLY, PHYSICALLY, CHEMICALLY MUTILATING HEALTHY BODIES.

YOU ARE SEEING IT ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, KENTUCKY IN 23 MAYBE MORE STATES HAVE TAKEN ACTION TO PROTECT KIDS FROM BEING HARMED IN THIS MANNER.

AS WAS MENTIONED PRESIDENT TRUMP IS SIGNED MULTIPLE EXECUTIVE ORDERS INCLUDING AN IMPORTANT ONE TO PROTECT OUR TAX DOLLARS.

I BELIEVE THAT KENTUCKIANS WERE SHOCKED WHEN THEY FOUND OUT THAT GOVERNOR BESHEAR WAS SEEKING TO USE OUR TAX DOLLARS TO PAY FOR TRANSGENDER INTERVENTIONS IN OUR PRISONS.

THEY WERE SHOCKED TO FIND OUT THAT OUR TAX DOLLARS ARE BEING USED IN MEDICAID AND THE NUMBERS THAT WE'RE HEARING COULD BE UP TO $10,000.

>> RESPECTFULLY DAVID I BEGAN RECEIVING MEDICAID COVERAGE UNDER GOVERNOR BEVIN.

>> KENTUCKIANS DO NOT WANT THEIR TAX DOLLARS SPENT PAYING FOR SOMETHING THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

>> IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO TRANSITION FROM A MAN TO A WOMAN FROM A BOY TO A GIRL.

OUR TAX DOLLARS SHOULD NOT BE PAYING FOR IT.

THANKFULLY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HAS TAKEN ACTION TO PROTECT OUR KIDS.

IF ADULTS WOULD LIKE TO TAKE PART IN THOSE PROCEDURES, THEY ARE FREE TO DO SO.

BUT OUR TAX DOLLARS SHOULD NOT PAY FOR IT.

AND SO I THINK MOST KENTUCKIANS WILL BE OVERWHELMINGLY ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT THESE TWO PIECES OF LEGISLATION.

AND I SUSPECT IF THE GOVERNOR DOES INDEED VETO BOTH YOU WILL SEE THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ENTHUSIASTICALLY TAKE ACTION.

>> DAVID HAS NOTHING TO BASE THESE IDEAS ON.

WE POLLED KENTUCKY VOTERS ON WHETHER OR NOT THESE WERE PRIORITY ISSUES NOT ONLY ARE THEY NOT SHOCKED TO FIND OUT THAT HEALTHCARE IS COVERED FOR TRANS KENTUCKIANS WHETHER ON MEDICAID OR JAILS AND PRISONS BUT NO VOTERS CARED ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

10 TO 15% OF KENTUCKY VOTERS SAID THIS WAS A HIGH PRIORITY FOR THEM AS OPPOSED TO 80% SAYING THAT ACCESS TO AFFORDABLE HEALTHCARE FUNDING PUBLIC EDUCATION AND DISASTER RELIEF FOR THE HISTORIC AND DEVASTATING FLOODS WE'VE HAD AMONG THE TOP PRIORITIES THIS IS THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL.

AND THE ONLY REASON THAT KENTUCKY LAWMAKERS ARE PURSUING THIS IS BECAUSE IT'S POLITICAL RED MEAT.

DAVID AND HIS GROUP AT THE FAMILY FOUNDATION SAID YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT THESE ISSUES OR WE'RE NOT GOING TO SUPPORT YOU IN YOUR REELECTION BIDS.

THE ONLY REASON THE ISSUES ARE RUNNING IN KENTUCKY.

KENTUCKY VOTERS DO NOT CARE ABOUT THESE ISSUES.

>> WITH ALL DUE RESPECT THE REASON THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAS TAKEN UP THE TWO BILLS IS BECAUSE OF THE ACTIONS OF OUR GOVERNOR.

SIGNING AN EXECUTIVE ORDER, ESSENTIALLY TRYING TO PUT INTO LAW LEGISLATION THAT HAD REPEATEDLY FAILED.

AND ALSO WAS GAINING LESS AND LESS SUPPORT EACH LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

HE DESIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER.

AND THEN AS WE SAW ESSENTIALLY TRYING TO SECRETLY PUT A POLICY IN PLACE NOT JUST TO PAY FOR GENDER TRANSITION MEDICAL PROCEDURES FOR THOSE IN PRISON, IT DOES MUCH MORE THAN THAT.

IT SETS UP A POLICY WHERE PRISONERS CAN ESSENTIALLY DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT FACILITY THEY WANT TO BE IN?

>> THAT'S NOT TRUE.

>> IT'S RIGHT IN THE POLICY.

I CAN READ IT TO YOU.

>> AND WHERE DID THAT POLICY COME FROM?

THE PRISON RAPE ELIMINATION ACT THAT IS DECADES OLD.

>> IT CAME FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SO WE'RE THANKFUL THAT TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS REVERSING COURSE AND BRINGING SANITY BACK INTO THIS ISSUE.

THE IDEA THAT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WAS THE ONE THAT FORCED THESE ISSUES TO HAVE TO COME UP THIS SESSION IS NOT TRUE.

>> Renee: FROM MARK A VIEWER NAMED MARK FROM NORTHERN KENTUCKY WHO SAYS THE STATE GOVERNMENT IS SPENDING SO MUCH TIME ON THIS ISSUE WHEN THEY SHOULD BE SPENDING TIME ON OTHER ISSUES.

PASTOR, ANSWER THAT ARE THERE OTHER ISSUES THAT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY SHOULD BE TENDING TO AND WHY IS THIS A PRIORITY?

>> I THINK IT IS A PRIORITY BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TAXPAYER MONEY AND PEOPLE'S LIVES AT STAKE.

AND YOU KNOW, IT MUST BE SAID THAT THESE TREATMENTS, THESE HORMONAL REPLACEMENT THERAPIES THESE SURGERIES ARE STERILIZATION SURGERIES.

TAXPAYER MONEY GOING FOR PROCEDURES AND TREATMENTS THAT WILL END IN AND RESULT IN THE LONG-TERM IRREVERSIBLE DAMAGE TO THESE INDIVIDUALS.

AND WHY WOULD A TAXPAYER WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN SUCH A PROCEDURE AND SUCH A SITUATION I DON'T THINK THAT THEY WOULD WANT TO DO THAT.

AND I WOULD ASK CHRIS IF HE IS USING THE SAME POLLING SITUATION THAT PREDICTED THAT KAMALA HARRIS LANDSLIDE AND GO BACK TO THE POLLING.

THE 2024 SURVEY SAID THAT 65% A NATIONAL SURVEY 65% OF VOTERS DO NOT WANT THEIR TAXPAYER MONEY GOING TO THESE PROCEDURES THAT IS 84% OF REPUBLICANS, 40% OF DEMOCRATS AND 72% OF SWING VOTERS.

[ALL TALKING AT ONCE] >> YOU ARE RATTLING OFF NUMBERS THAT WERE NOT VETTED.

WE RELEASED THE MASON DIXON POLL YOU DON'T POLL ON THE ISSUES BECAUSE YOU DON'T CARE WHAT VOTERS CARE ABOUT.

YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR STRICT IDEOLOGY AND FORCING YOUR BELIEFS ON TO OTHERS IN THE LAW.

AND FRANKLY IT'S NOT THE SAME SENTIMENT THAT KENTUCKY VOTERS HAVE.

>> I DON'T DO POLLING BECAUSE I AM A PASTOR AND I'M CONCERNED ABOUT CAPITAL T TRUTH TRUTH, ACCORDING TO NATURE AND NATURE'S GOD.

AND I BASE MY ETHICAL OUTLOOK ON THE PEOPLE THAT COME TO ME FOR COUNSELING I WANT TO BASE MY CON SELL ON AND ALSO WHAT I WANT THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY TO FLOURISH UNDER NOT AN EXPERIMENTAL.

>> DON'T SEND YOUR KIDS TO COLIN.

>> I THINK THAT KENTUCKY TAXPAYERS DO NOT WANT TO BE ON THE HOOK FOR EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDURES ACCORDING TO A STUDY RELEASED OXFORD ACADEMIC JOURNAL OF SEXUAL MEDICINE IT REVIEWED 1 107500 PATIENTS GENDER AFFIRMING CARE SURGERY WHILE BENEFICIAL IN AFFIRMING IDENTITY IS ASSOCIATED WITH INCREASED RISK OF MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES.

THAT IS STUDY PUBLISHED IN THE OXFORD ACT ASSEMBLYIC JOURNAL OF SEXUAL MEDICINE.

LOOK THAT UP.

WE ARE NOT SEEING THE SAME RESULTS THAT THE OTHER SIDE IS SAYING IS GOING TO BE RESULTING.

>> Renee: I WANT YOU TO RESPOND THAT.

>> I HAVE SEEN THAT STUDY PASTOR AND IN THAT STUDY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY DID WAS THEY MEASURED THE MENTAL HEALTH OF SOMEBODY BEFORE THEY RECEIVED GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERIES AND AFTER THEY RECEIVED SURGERIES.

FIRST OF ALL WE ARE NOT HERE TO TALK ABOUT GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERIES BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PAID FOR BY TAXPAYERS.

TWO THEY DID NOT GAUGE ANY CONTROLS IN THAT.

THIS WAS TALKING ABOUT A MORE GENERALIZED SURVEY OF THE TRANSGENDER POPULATION.

WE ARE MORE LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE MELODIES TRES AND SUICIDAL IDEATION BECAUSE WE HAVE TO COME ON PUBLIC POLICY SHOWS AND TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE DEEPLY UNDER ROUSE ABOUT PUBLIC POLICY AND ONLY SERIOUS ABOUT THEIR THEOLOGY.

WE EXIST IN A CULTURE THAT TRIES TO TELL US TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT WE DO NOT EXIST.

WE DO EXIST.

AND DESPITE WHAT Mr.

WALLS HAS CONSISTENTLY SAID THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A TRANSGENDER CHILD AND THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A TRANSGENDER KENTUCKIAN I'M SITTING BEFORE YOU AS A TRANSGENDER KENTUCKIAN.

AND YOU HAVE YOUR RIGHT TO BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU MIGHT WANT TO BELIEVE ABOUT ME.

BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE AWAY MY ACCESS TO THE HEALTHCARE THAT SAVES MY LIFE AND SAVES THOUSANDS OF OTHER LIVES BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ME.

HOW MANY TRANSGENDER PEOPLE HAVE YOU REACHED OUT TO WHEN YOU DISCUSS THIS ISSUES?

>> I HAVE CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH SEVERAL DETRANSITIONERS AND WE'VE HEARD TESTIMONIES HOW THIS ISSUE HAS HARMED PEOPLE BOTH YOUNG AND OLD.

AND SO AND I'LL JUST.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND YOU I AM A D TRANSITIONER.

I D TRANSITIONED WHEN I WAS 18 BECAUSE I WAS TERRIFIED AND AFRAID BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU COME ON THESE SHOWS AND YOU PEDDLE THE BAD FAITH ARGUMENTS WHO DON'T KNOW A TRANS PERSON INTO BELIEVING THIS LANGUAGE LIKE YOU USED.

THE TERM MUTILATION IS MORE AT HOME IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT HORROR FILMS IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT SERIOUS PUBLIC POLICY MATTERS.

>> ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOOK AT THE SURGERIES AND THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN HARMED AND IT'S MUTILATING.

YOU SAID WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT TRANSGENDER SURGERIES.

THIS IS THE GOVERNOR'S MEMO RIGHT HERE.

AND THERE IS A SECTION THAT TALKS ABOUT AN INMATE IN PRISON REQUESTING A TRANSGENDER SPECIFIC SURGERY.

SO THIS -- >> WHICH THEY DO NOT RECEIVE.

>> THIS IS THE CONTEXT WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT.

>> Renee: THE REQUEST IS DIFFERENT FROM HAVING RECEIVED.

>> RIGHT, BUT THE IDEA THAT THE REQUEST WAS MADE IT ABSOLUTELY.

>> SOMEBODY IN PRISON CAN ACCEPT TO LEAVE PRISON BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE GOING TO.

>> READ THROUGH THE POLICY IT'S CLEAR THAT THAT IS THE DIRECTION THE GOVERNOR WAS PUSHING THIS COMMONWEALTH TO GO.

AND AS I SAID THERE'S MANY MORE CONCERNS INCLUDING THE ISSUE OF FORCING THOSE IN OUR PRISON FACILITIES IN THOSE CORRECTIONAL WORKERS TO HAVE TO USE PREFERRED PRONOUNCE AND VIOLATE THEIR FREE SPEECH AND RELIGIOUS LIBERTY AS WELL.

IT IS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ACTIONS THAT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY RIGHTLY TOOK TO REIN IN ACTIONS OF OUR OUT OF CONTROL GOVERNOR.

THEY TOOK RIGHT ACTIONS TO REVERSE COURSE.

THE LEGISLATURE IS THE ONE THAT SHOULD BE MAKING THE LAWS IN THIS COMMONWEALTH.

AND THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO ENSURE THAT OUR TAX DOLLARS ARE PROTECTED.

>> Renee: WHEN IT COMES TO GENDER AFFIRMING CARE FOR INMATES IN KENTUCKY WE UNDERSTOOD THERE ARE 67 INMATES THAT SENATE BILL 2 SEPARATE FROM 495 THAT SEEMS TO BE A SMALL NUMBER, Mr. HARTMAN, EXPLAIN?

>> ZERO -- 0.35% OF KENTUCKY INCARCERATED POPULATION LESS THAN HALF A PERCENT.

67 KENTUCKIANS WILL BE DENIED THEIR PRESCRIBED MEDICALLY NECESSARY HEALTHCARE IN JAILS AND PRISONS.

AND KENTUCKY IS OPENING ITSELF UP TO SOME REALLY SERIOUS LEGAL CHALLENGES BECAUSE THIS IS CLEARLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND FEDERAL COURTS HELD THAT IT IS A VIOLATION OF THE 8TH AMENDMENT.

IT IS CRUEL AND UNUSUAL TO DENY ANY INMATES THE HEALTHCARE THAT THEY'VE BEEN PRESCRIBED BY THEIR PHYSICIANS.

>> Renee: SO WE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE LEGISLATION SAYS.

IF AN INMATE COMES TO A CORRECTIONAL FACILITY AND THEY ARE ALREADY ON THOSE HORMONAL THERAPIES IT WOULD BE CEASED?

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

THERE IS THIS TAPERING OFF PERIOD IN THE LEGISLATION THAT SAYS IF THE MEDICAL TEAM DETERMINES THAT IT WOULD BE HARMFUL TO COME OFF OF THE MEDICATION RIGHT AWAY THAT THERE CAN BE A SORT OF STEPPING DOWN.

BUT NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT IT, DENYING FOLKS THE MEDICATIONS THAT THEY'VE BEEN PRESCRIBED IS SIMPLY WRONG.

>> Renee: TO Mr.

WALLS' AND REVEREND'S CONTENTION THAT TAXPAYER DOLLARS SHOULD NOT BE FUNDING THOSE THERAPIES.

>> LET ME SAY ALL INMATES IN JAILS AND PRISONS DESERVE ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE.

AND IT INCLUDES TRANSGENDER FOLKS.

AND THE MONEY THAT THE STATE THINKS IT'S GOING TO SOMEHOW SAVE BY DENYING THESE PRESCRIPTIONS TO INMATES IN JAILS AND PRISONS IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY IS NOT GOING TO OUT WAY THE -- OUTWEIGH THE SUICIDE THOUGHTS AND THE MEDICATIONS FOLKS WILL NEED WHEN TAKEN OFF THE MEDICATION THAT IS LITERALLY SAVING THEIR LIVES.

>> I THINK BESHEAR'S OPPOSITION DEMONSTRATING HE IS TRYING TO PUT HIS HAND ON THE SCALES AND VOTE IN FAVOR OF A TROUBLED MIND INSTEAD OF A HEALTHY BODY AND I DON'T THINK THE TAXPAYERS IN KENTUCKY WANT TO SIGN UP FOR THAT.

AND WANT TO BE ON THE HOOK FOR PROVIDING THOSE SURGERIES AND TREATMENTS THOSE HORMONAL THERAPIES THAT ARE GOING TO RESULT IN STERILIZATION THAT WILL RESULT IN AS SUSPECTS YOU LOOK AT THESE WOMEN THAT HAVE UNDERGONE THE HORMONE REPLACEMENT SURGERIES EARLY ONSET OSTEOPOROSIS.

THERE IS A REASON WHY THE CLINIC IS BACKING OFF OF THE AFFIRMING CARE.

THERE IS A REASON WHY JOHNS HOPKINS STOPPED THEIR TREATMENT AND RESTARTED IT.

AND THE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY IN ST. LOUIS STOPPED PROVIDING THIS CARE AND IT HAS TO DO WITH THE LEGAL CHALLENGES THAT THEY KNOW ARE COMING BECAUSE OF THE CASES THAT DAVID CITED WITH THE DETRANSITIONERS.

>> Renee: JOHNS HOPKINS STOPPED IT AND RESTARTED IT.

>> UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FOR IDEOLOGICAL PURPOSES AGAINST THE STUDY AND THE WELL WISHES OF PAUL McCUE, AND HIS RESEARCH.

GO LOOK THAT UP FOR LISTENERS.

ALL LITERATURE IS AVAILABLE.

ALL OF THESE STUDIES ARE OUT THERE.

I THINK RIGHT NOWER WE ARE IN A DEBATE AND THIS IS A DEBATE THAT WE NEED TO HAVE.

WHY THEN WOULD THE GOVERNOR, WHY THEN WOULD THE TAXPAYER BE ON THE HOOK FOR ONE SIDE OF THE DEBATE INSTEAD OF HAVING THIS OUT IN THE OPEN AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THE LAWS OF NATURE AND NATURE'S GOD.

>> RESPECTFULLY PASTOR, YOU CITE ALL OF THESE COUNTRIES THAT ARE GOING BACK AND CLINICS AND NOT CITING THE FACT WE HAD NEW GUIDELINES ISSUED IN SWEDEN BY THE WAY THE SWISS STUDY THAT WAS CITED AGAIN IN SENATE BILL 150 DEBATING THIS ISSUE TWO YEARS AGO THIS IS NOT A NEW DEBATE.

YOU MIGHT BE NEW TO IT, WELCOME.

WE SAW THAT SWEDEN ACTUALLY INCREASED THEIR SUPPORT FOR GENDER AFFIRMING CARE AND WE SAW THAT IN OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AS WELL.

BECAUSE THEY BECAME MORE AWARE.

THEY STUDIED THEY DID THE WORK AND DID THE SCIENCE.

LAWS LIKE HOUSE BILL 495 THAT STRIP MARGINALIZED KENTUCKIANS OF THEIR HEALTHCARE SPECIFICALLY TRANSGENDER KENTUCKIANS MY COMMUNITY HAPPEN BECAUSE MOST KENTUCKIANS DON'T KNOW A TRANSGENDER PERSON INDIVIDUALLY ONE-ON-ONE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CARE LOOKS LIKE AND THAT ALLOWS BAD FAITH ACTORS TO USE THIS HORROR FILM LANGUAGE LIKE STERILIZATION AND MUTTLATION TO FEAR MONGER.

IT LOOKS LIKE THIS.

THIS IS ESTROGEN PROVIDED TO ME THROUGH A PRESCRIPTION BY MY DOCTOR.

>> Renee: THANK YOU.

WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

WE APPRECIATE YOU CERTAINLY.

APPRECIATE THE COMMENTARY OF YOU ALL AND WE WILL BE FOLLOWING THIS ISSUE AS IT MOVES THROUGH THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON THE DAYS TO COME THURSDAY AND FRIDAY YOU CAN WATCH THAT ON-LINE AS IT HAPPENS AT KET.ORG.

I'M RENEE SHAW I WILL SEE YOU TOMORROW NIGHT FOR KENTUCKY EDITION.