GENE: Thank you, Kevin.

Really appreciate it.

Hey  guys, Facebook Live time.

Thanks for joining us.

Let me just hit that little button there… Yeah, my  name is Gene Grant.

I'm joined today by Brittany   Michelson of In Defense of an… In Defense  of Animals.

That's a well-known organization   in the United States, as we're looking  out for animal welfare across a number of   places, including zoos.

And, as you might know, we  had a quite the discussion a couple of weeks ago   about the criticism leveled at the  Albuquerque Biopark, by the organization,   where In Defense of Animals ranked  our zoo second worst for elephants,   in health habitats in the country, of all the  zoos out there.

Brittany, I’ve got a million   questions.

First of all, thank you for joining us.

Tell us about the organization real quick, what   you guys do and how long you've been doing it?

BRITTANY: Sure, so my name is Brittany Michelson   and I am the captive animals campaigner for In  Defense of Animals, IDA, and the organization   started back in 1983.

And it's an international  animal advocacy and protection organization   that is based in northern California,  but it's international.

And we do   work on behalf of animals in all different areas,  all forms and types of animal exploitation.

So,   animals who are exploited for food and for  clothing and for entertainment and for testing,   medicine and and all of it.

We cover everything  and we're a comprehensive organization   and my role is, I run campaigns and advocacy for  captive animals.

That is doing work on behalf of   animals who are exploited in zoos, circuses,  marine parks, the pet trade and so forth.

GENE: That's a lot.

It's a lot of coverage.

I  should note, by the way, we did reach out to the   Biopark folks to join us in this discussion.

They  declined.

Perhaps we might be able to get them at   another time.

We're going to keep trying, because  we do want to hear their side of it, elephants in   particular.

God, I’ve got a million questions,  beyond Albuquerque's deal.

I want to get later   to a trend that I see forming nationally and  internationally about our attitudes about elephant   enclosures and such, but let me, let's start here  with Albuquerque.

What are the unique challenges   here in Albuquerque that you guys saw, besides…  talk about the criticism and how it just sort   of stacks up against other zoos out there.

BRITTANY: Sure.

So, the main red flags about the   Albuquerque Biopark Zoo was the fact that they had  two very young elephants that died within a week,   in the winter.

So, they had a  three-year-old elephant named Thorne   who died on Christmas day.

And then,  within a week, an eight-year-old elephant   named Jazmine passed away.

And they died of EEHV  which is the herpes virus strain that elephants   contract.

But, the fact that the zoo had two very  young elephants, they died extremely prematurely,   that caught our attention.

Not to mention the fact  that every baby elephant that has been born at the   Albuquerque Biopark has died from this disease,  from EEHV.

So, there's something wrong here,   when we have multiple, young, very young  elephants passing away.

And they have a   breeding program at this zoo, so something  is certainly amiss.

That was a big red flag   for us and prompted us to investigate further.

We were wondering, “Well, why are these deaths   repetitive?

Why does this keep happening?” Another  major concern is the size of their enclosure.

It's   much too small for a herd of elephants.

It is pretty barren and it's right next   to a busy highway.

So, the elephants are  constantly subjected to traffic noise,   of course the noise from the zoo  spectators, as well, and construction noises   from expansion and projects within the zoo.

And  so, these elephants really don't have any peace   there.

They're subjected to a lot of noise  and the enclosure is restrictive.

We observed   stereotypical behaviors, behaviors that are  indicative of stress.

So, elephants pacing   and swaying and so forth and those are, those  are the two major reasons, along with the fact   that this zoo has a breeding program, that is  just replicating the issues I just mentioned.

GENE: Are these, are these infant deaths  that unusual compared to other zoos?

Is it   appreciably more?

BRITTANY:   EEHV is found in, more often found in captive  elephants.

It has been more largely detected in   zoo elephants, elephants that are captive in  zoo environments.

There are certain zoos that   have more of an issue, certainly, more of an  issue than others.

The Albuquerque Biopark   is one of them.

They, every elephant that's  been born at this facility has, every baby has   died.

So, there's a big issue going on here and we  would like to see them stop their breeding program   and release the elephants that they have now to  an accredited, reputable sanctuary to live out   the remainder of their lives in a much more  natural, much more peaceful setting and to   close their elephant exhibit.

That's what  IDA is asking these zoos to do.

Elephants   have no place in zoos.

They  are the largest land mammal,   one of the most intelligent species on the  planet.

They're incredibly, emotionally complex   and they really suffer in zoos.

GENE: This is the part I've been   reading about a lot, is the emotional  part.

Let's talk about this a little bit.

You know, again, as a layperson, it's difficult to  sort of separate the idea that, “Oh, I'm a patron.

These elephants are so amazing.

I just want to  go see and bring my kids,” and all this and that,   but I've learned a lot about… let's talk about  from the bottom up.

How much elephants communicate   and feel the world literally through their feet,  in the pads of their feet.

And I was blown away   reading some of this, honestly, because it really  got across what you were saying.

In a small   enclosure, I don't understand how an elephant  could have any kind of emotional nourishment.

If   so much is communicated through their feet, being  in such a small enclosure.

Am I off on that?

Is   that, is that a problem, or am I misreading that?

BRITTANY: No, you're definitely correct.

Elephants   are very emotionally in tune and they have  sensitive hearing.

They feel vibrations,   sound vibrations through their feet.

Seismic  vibrations.

And they are definitely very limited   in a zoo enclosure, where they don't have the  space to really interact the way that they   choose to interact.

They can't get space from each  other when they want to and so forth.

And like I   mentioned earlier, with the busy highway right  beside the elephant enclosure at Albuquerque   Biopark Zoo, the elephants are just subjected  to a lot of noise and they really belong in a   very expansive, peaceful setting, where  they can just enjoy a relaxing environment.

GENE: I'll come to that in a quick sec.

For  sanctuaries, that's an interesting point there,   you know.

This idea of, again, I want to expand  on this idea of the sensitivity of elephants.

There's such a rush to get elephants out  of the zoo there, is that the explosions   in the gunfire are highly impactful on an  elephant's hearing.

Talk about their hearing   and their capacity and what they're able to  sort of glean.

Why we do have to be careful,   because when folks hear you say there's a busy  road, you know, they think of it in human terms,   you know what I mean?

Like, we deal with this  all the time.

Talk about that from an elephant's   perspective, what we're hearing and etc.

BRITTANY: Well, just in the way that many animal   species have more acute hearing than humans,  elephants hear in greater, in a greater capacity   than we do and for far greater distances.

I don't  know the exact range, but they have a more acute,   sensitive hearing than we do.

And so,  anything that is going on vibrationally,   certainly, in Ukraine with, you know, all of the  effects of the war, they're definitely impacted on   a far greater scale than we are.

And so, and  they're sensitive and they get stressed and   they can't escape it.

They don't have anywhere  to go, you know.

In the wild, they roam,   they roam for miles and miles a day.

And so, in  captivity, the elephants who are in captivity,   the best possible scenario is to have  them at sanctuaries where there's   far more space there's acres of land and  a much more natural, relaxing environment,   where they can just be elephants and they can  interact the way that they want to interact.

They can choose who they want to socialize with  and how they form their herds and so forth,   because that's another issue in zoos, is that  elephants are very social.

So, they should never   be alone and there are certain zoos that have  solitary elephants.

And that's a big problem.

But, in social environments, in zoos, sometimes  they put elephants together that really they   wouldn't choose to be together in a setting where  they have that choice.

They, because they don't   always get along, just like with humans.

We don't always get along with each other   and we should have the choice and you know in  terms of who to socialize with and that's just not   really available to them in a zoo environment.

GENE: Yeah, my understanding is there were two   sanctuaries in the country, one in Tennessee  and one of the northwest part of the,   of our country.

Do I have that right?

BRITTANY: Yes, Tennessee and northern   California, the elephant  sanctuary of Tennessee and PAWS   in northern California.

That's right.

That was it.

GENE: Sorry about that.

What makes up a sanctuary?

Is there a certain minimum amount of  acreage or what would you folks consider   as an appropriate sanctuary for elephants?

BRITTANY: That's a great question.

I'm not   sure in terms of numbers of actual acreage what  the requirement is or what the parameter is,   but basically it's a much more natural  environment.

At zoos there's a lot of   concrete.

There's a lot of fencing.

There's a  lot of artificial, even at some zoos, they have a   wire or some kind of artificial material wrapped  around trees, so that the elephants don't destroy   the foliage.

And this, by the way is also  evident at Albuquerque Biopark.

They have   trees blocked off from the elephants,  so that the elephants, elephants they   want to forage.

They want to, you know, they're  very strong.

Their trunks can pull down branches   and they should be able to do that, but they're  often restricted from doing that in zoos.

So, at   sanctuaries they have much more space.

It's just  much more remote, much more remote environment,   more peaceful there.

They don't have all the  visitors coming in like at the zoo.

There's so   many people, little kids screaming and  people taking pictures, and it's just,   it's really not pleasant for the elephants.

So, a sanctuary is about the elephant's best   interest.

Sanctuaries put the animals first.

Zoos sell tickets and whether or not people want   to believe it, a zoo is a business they're  selling tickets and their, you know, their   mission is to, you know, make ticket sales.

And so, a lot of times they will dupe the   public into thinking that it's all about  conservation, but you know, when you dig   deeper there are a lot of issues with zoos.

GENE: Yeah, we're going to come back to that   conservation piece here in a quick second.

Are  there any more sanctuaries that you folks are   aware of that are being planned at this point?

BRITTANY: There are a number of sanctuaries   for elephants in the world, like the  global sanctuary for elephants in Brazil.

There's elephant nature park in Thailand.

There's Cambodia wildlife sanctuary.

There are elephant sanctuaries in different  regions.

In the U.S., there's the Tennessee   elephant sanctuary and PAWS, performing animal  welfare society is what paws stands for.

They take in elephants that have been retired from  circuses, that have been retired from performing.

And so, those, you know, there are places that  call themselves sanctuaries, such as a facility   in Fredericksburg, Texas, that is our hall of  shame entry for the 2021 ten worst zoos list.

The preserve is a sham sanctuary,  basically.

They call themselves a,   you know, about the preserve, but that's not at  all the case.

And we called them out for their   deception and they are, they're not one of the  ten, but they are, we had a dishonorable mention   and a hall of shame entry as well for our list.

GENE: You know, we're used to the idea of   sanctuary around here, as you probably know.

We've had a number of chimps that have been in   lab testing facilities and, you know, the idea  of sanctuary is not a new idea in New Mexico,   but I'm curious, another ignorant question.

Is it,  in the United States, I can understand the other   places you mentioned, Thailand, South America,  there's an almost, a habitat, if I'm being correct   here, that's somewhat similar.

Are we limited here  in the United States for habitats, for a sanctuary   for elephants?

Are there places that are just  too hot, too dry?

How limited are we for creating   space for elephants here in the States?

BRITTANY: Well,   I don't think that we're that limited.

It's  just that in Southeast Asia, for example,   there are so many elephants that are used in the  logging industry and in the trekking industry.

And so many elephants are end up being  rescued and retired from those industries.

And, they'll end up in the  sanctuaries in Thailand and Cambodia.

So, here we need to really focus on getting zoos  to, I mean, really push for zoos to retire their   elephants to sanctuaries and close their exhibits.

GENE: I would say that you know this the sanctuary   movement will only continue to grow and there will  be more, more and more emphasis on sanctuaries,   the more that is exposed about zoos and  how elephants really do suffer in zoos,   I think this will just only grow.

But, that  brings us back to your call and others that   we should just be closing elephant exhibits.

There have been a number of closings.

I mean,   a lot of closings over the past 20 years or so,  but then again, we seem to be filling up zoos,   you know, almost like it's a commodity.

I believe,  you know, it's like, “Well, we'll just go buy some   more female elephants, because all these infants  are dying,” and it just seems to me, and again, a   layman's point of view here, that we're just going  in circles here when it comes to elephants.

That,   you know, the science clearly shows there's a  problem with infant mortality.

Why is it that   we're just trying to solve the problem with just  shipping in with females and it just keeps going,   nothing seems to get solved here.

Are we going to  eventually have a point here… what I'm leading up   to… where zoos eventually do close these exhibits  to the public, despite that ticket sale angle   that you were talking about a little bit earlier?

BRITTANY: Well, I really hope so.

That's our goal   and that is truly what needs to happen, because  these animals, they need far more space and   they need a much more natural environment  for all the reasons that I mentioned.

And   so, breeding them and zoos will say it's  for conservation to save the species, but   what's really happening is they  are suffering and this suffering is   being perpetuated and replicated with  breeding.

So, it's, it really is not   good.

It's not a good idea and it's not in  the elephant's best interest, certainly.

GENE: I mentioned, 28 zoos have already closed  or pledged to close their elephant exhibits.

Is this picking up steam?

BRITTANY: Oh yeah, definitely, definitely, because   more and more people and the zoos themselves are  realizing that the public is more and more against   elephant captivity, captivity in zoos, in  general.

You know, for animals in general but   looking at different species because  elephants, the largest land mammal,   one of the most intelligent species, very  emotionally complex, people are really on   to the fact that that, you know, these animals are  especially suffering in zoos.

And, I mean, I can   add all kinds of other animals that also suffer  in zoos, but we're focusing on elephants here.

They just, zoos cannot meet their needs.

That's  just plain and simple and there are zoos like   the Phoenix Zoo that's on our list that have  one elephant and that is very unfortunate,   because elephants are highly social.

GENE: Interesting.

We're talking to   Brittany Michelson of In Defense of Animals,  talking about that report being released a couple   weeks ago about the Albuquerque Biopark and the  zoo, and the elephant enclosure.

There's a couple   more questions, Brittany, if we, if we could.

Are there any zoos out there doing it right,   that we could point out?

BRITTANY: That's a common question   and our answer, our belief at In Defense  of Animals is that, no, because of what   I just mentioned, that zoos, they always fall  short of what elephants truly need.

They just,   they do not have the space.

They do not have a  natural enough environment.

They do not have what   allows elephants to truly thrive.

Now,  obviously, you know, you know, we'd love   to see elephants just free roaming, free and wild,  you know, out in the wild where they belong.

But,   the ones that are captive, our goal is to  send them to sanctuaries, because at least   sanctuaries can far better provide a happy  and, you know, relaxing life and just much   better provide for the elephant's needs than a zoo  can.

So, even, you know, certain zoos who might be   trying to do what they can and trying their best  and making changes and adjustments, it's just,   it's sort of futile because they  just don't have what really is   needed for this type of animal to thrive.

GENE: I can imagine, I mean we're talking   about animals that roam 50, up to 50 miles a  day.

I just, I can't even imagine, you know,   going in circles in that enclosure at the zoo.

Every time I think about it, I just, just get ill,   you know.

And our new understanding of sentient  beings and the kind of things they go through,   I think, this is informing this discussion a  lot, that people are realizing, like you said,   they're very complex beings and they're suffering.

I mean, there's just no other way to say it.

You   cannot take something that large, fly at 20 hours  with a couple of stops on an airplane and expect   everything just to work out.

Which leads me to  another question, I'm concerned, I'm curious about   trauma and moving elephants, is there a concern  about trauma moving elements, even into sanctuary?

Is there any kind of thing, after you've been in  an enclosure for so many years?

What happens when   an elephant finally does have a little more space?

BRITTANY: Well that's a great question and that is   something that zoo officials  will often use as a defense   to keeping the elephants in zoos, that  they often come back and say, “Well,   this elephant is so used to living here.

This is  the elephant's home for the last 30 years and so   moving the elephant would be traumatic, or it  would, you know, it would be too stressful.”   But honestly, the benefits definitely  outweigh the risks.

Animals are adaptable   and animals thrive when they have more space  and they have a more natural environment.

So,   transporting them is not, it's worth it  to transport them and there have been   many success stories of elephants or animals  being transported to sanctuaries, where,   you know, the zoos had said, “Oh, they  shouldn't be moved.

They need to stay   here.

It's their home.” And then, it's, it's  completely fine and they're far happier.

So,   that's definitely a good question to ask, is  something that we hear a lot of, is that zoos   will say, “Oh, they… it's too risky.” And, I do  want to mention, just, and I don't know if you had   learned about this part of our report in the ten  worst zoos, but this year we were learning for   2021, we were largely focusing on a brain  study that was done by somebody named Bob   Jacobs who's a professor of neuroscience  at Colorado College and he did a big study   on elephant brains and extensive research  and we quote him and cite him in our list   and in our entries.

And he found that  not only does the zoo environments create   psychological issues for elephants, because of  the stress and the impoverished environments,   but it actually physically changes the neurons  in their brains, creating actual physical brain   damage.

And so, this is a really eye-opening  study, that definitely is gaining some traction,   that people need to really be aware of.

GENE: It's, to that degree, it's causing   physical brain damage, that is worth reading into.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna dig into that a little bit   more.

That's, that's… I'm kind of fascinated by  that.

One of the other things that that distresses   me Brittany, when I read about it, is this idea of  zoos swapping elephants, to either might make room   for more females, or if somebody needs a female  over here in this other city.

And while that's   happening you what, whatever little family thing  they might have just gets busted apart completely.

And I just, sometimes I think, you know, the AZA  is doing what it's thinks it's the right thing.

And you know, does… I just… something about that  is very distressing to me, that you have these   elephants, that the one little thing of emotional  support they have, just because of economics,   they're gone, you know what I mean.

Just something  about that.

Are we seeing an end game coming here,   because of this?

I0s that a sign when zoos are  like swapping elephants that something is like   clearly not headed in the right direction here?

BRITTANY: Yeah, that's one of the major issues   with zoos in general, with animals, is that  they do, they break up families, they break   up groups.

They'll ship animals from zoo to zoo  and it's devastating for the animals and it's not   right to do that, but because they will send an  elephant to another zoo for breeding, you know,   they'll send a male to the zoo who is who's viable  for breeding.

They'll send different animals to   different locations and they ship them and it's  stressful and it causes issues.

That's one of the   main problems with zoos among many others Gene:  Finally, I'm curious, your organization's take on   international law.

Boy, when you read into  the elephant trade it's just this disgusting   money you know handing over and you know a lot  of made-up stories about why elephants need to   be removed from their home areas and brought  to the states for zoos.

That turned out to be   not truth.

I mean, what's going on in Washington,  D.C. here, when it comes to international policy   of bringing in elephants, because it seems awfully  loose from my read.

That, you know, as long as you   get the money, you can get away with pretty much  anything when it comes to elephants at this point.

BRITTANY: Yeah, exactly.

It is much too loose.

It  is not handled in the way that it should be and it   is not managed the way that it should be.

And so,  yeah there are basically animal laws are far too   loose in general in society.

Animal cruelty  laws are far too loose and that's something   that we work on at In Defense of Animals, is  trying to really get the animal rights laws   more pronounced and get them to become stronger  in legislation, to get legislation to pass   that protects non-human animals.

And so, that's  something that is growing and it is changing   slowly and it depends… in our country it depends  on the state.

You know, California is, you know,   far more progressive than Texas, for example, when  it comes to animal cruelty laws.

But we have a   long way to go.

So, I can't speak specifically  to the international laws with like elephant   transport at the moment, but it's something that  is on our radar and that is certainly you know   changing, but a little too slowly.

GENE: It's, it's a deep issue.

That's a deep,   deep issue, especially when you talk about foreign  countries, because even over there you've got lots   of layers of people with their hands out to give  money.

So, it's a very tricky story to nail down   exactly and that's something else, is that,  you know, they will say, “Oh these elephants   will be taken care of in this zoo in the United  States.

The elephant will be provided for and   it's conservation,” but it's like, “Well, they're  taking the elephants out of their natural home   shipping them, you know, across the  world and putting them in an artificial   environment.” It's awful for the animals  themselves.

What can a regular citizen do, besides   not go to the zoo?

Is there a way to, you know,  let their feelings known locally, internationally,   about elephants, and how this all works?

BRITTANY: Yeah, great question.

Certainly   not supporting zoos and spreading the word to  everybody that you know family and friends, to   not buy a ticket.

And joining any local protests  or advocacy efforts against zoos.

There are animal   rights groups in every city and there are zoo  protests also.

I mean, the main thing is to just   raise awareness and to try to use our voices  as much as we can for the non-human animals and   to educate people, because there's a lot of  propaganda that zoos put out to the public, you   know.

Conservation and well, “but children need to  learn about these animals.

How else will children   learn about these wild animals,” you know, but  that's not fair to the animals.

Just because   humans want to you know, because people want  to take their kids to see them, that doesn't   make it right.

And, you know, there are books,  there's the internet, there's virtual, all kinds   of virtual things now and technological things  where there are other ways to learn about them.

And, you know, it's not really fair to  confine and deprive animals just so that   we people can learn about them and see them.

So, GENE: It's an unfair trade, isn't it?

It really   is very unfair to the elephant.

I just, when  you think about their size, their complexity,   their needs, their emotional needs, I mean,  and we're surprised infanticide is happening,   you know what I mean?

And that, they're… do  these elephants are doing things that would   never ever happen in the wild, that you'd  think that would be the tip off right there,   that we're off track here somehow guys.

I  wanted to know, also just a reminder, we did and   invite the Albuquerque Biopark folks to join us  in this conversation.

They did decline.

We'll try   to catch up with them again, in fairness,  perhaps next week or later this week.

So,   we'll let you know, but for right now, Michelle,  I'm sorry, Brittany Michelson of In Defense of   Animals, thank you so much for your time.

I know  we took a lot of time from you today, but it's a   topic that we're getting a lot of feedback  on.

It took a lot of people by surprise   because we don't think about these things.

It's  just the zoo's the zoo, you know, critical eye,   but thank you so much.

And if we could, maybe  we could follow up with you at some point in   the organization, if things are moving down  the road here in Albuquerque, at some point.

BRITTANY: Absolutely, thank you so much, Gene.

I  very much appreciate you and Kevin and just your   interest in this topic.

Thank you for taking  the time to speak with me and thank you for   helping to make a stand for the elephants.

GENE: Appreciate that, absolutely folks.

We'd love to hear your opinion as well.

Please  feel free to add in the thread comment below   or anyplace else you might want to let us know  what's happening.

Until Friday night 7 o'clock,   channel 5.1, take care.

Stay out of  the wind.

We'll see you later on.