- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- Access to legal services tonight, on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by Claudia Williams Hyman.

She's a staff attorney with West Tennessee Legal Services.

Thanks for being here.

- Thank you for having me.

- Constance Brown works with Access to Justice with the Memphis Bar Association.

Thanks for being here.

- Thanks for having me.

- I'll start, I think, with both of you, and I'll go to you first, Claudia, and talk about what West Tennessee Legal Services, which is new to, relatively new to Memphis.

Not new to West Tennessee.

What, in 30 seconds, you know, the snapshot of what you all do, and then we'll go deeper on that.

- Yeah, so West Tennessee Legal Services, we provide low-income civil legal services to people in previously 17 counties in West Tennessee.

So we've been in this area for a very long time.

However, we recently expanded our services to include Shelby County, Tipton, Lauderdale, and Fayette.

- And those services are mostly civil, not criminal?

Or am I, do I have that wrong?

- No, that's absolutely right.

There are ways in which we assist people.

So for example, with criminal expungements, we do help people as it relates to their criminal history or clearing up their record, but our services are primarily civil.

- And we'll break those down more as we talk.

But let me go to Constance.

The Memphis Bar Association Access to Justice Committee, it's a mouthful, but what does that boil down to?

- So basically my position is the Chair.

So I serve as a liaison for the different legal aid services that we have in our community.

So that would be West Tennessee, that would be Memphis Area Legal Services, that would be Community Legal Center.

So I meet monthly with all the representatives from each organization, and we plan different initiatives throughout the year.

So we host legal clinics, we partner with different organizations.

We do outreach in the community to find out what that need is, and we try to curate our clinics and our different initiatives around that identified need.

- And then bring in attorneys from, you talked about those organizations, but it could also be people at a law firm in town doing pro bono work or that kind of thing as well?

- Absolutely, so we love to recruit from our firms.

We love to recruit from legal services.

We also have a need for non-lawyers as well.

We have needs for intake.

We have need for just people to help us make sure the events run smoothly.

So you don't necessarily even have to be an attorney to help out.

- So the need for this comes, I mean, and we should give some more examples.

I'll turn back to you, Claudia.

You know, things like, you've got debt collection issues, you've got warranty.

There was one thing I think it was on your website that I hadn't thought about, but it's a small thing that can get big.

A warranty on an appliance.

You've got all these kind of small, but really day in, day out time killers if nothing else, and time sucks and financial challenges, foreclosures, all those kinds of things that I guess by necessity require a lawyer to go, to really navigate the legal system to get things worked out as best as possible.

Is that a fair sort of layman's person way to talk about it?

- Yes, and we help out with a variety of areas.

So as you mentioned, we help out with consumer rights issues, debt collection, foreclosure in our work in housing.

We also do landlord/tenant work.

We help folks with benefits.

So Social Security, disability, SSI.

SNAP is a big one that we help people with.

And so, you know, we understand that these issues can be brief in terms of how long they impact someone, but they really are impactful to people's lives and their ability to thrive and move through their life confidently and competently.

So, you know, we want to help ease whatever legal burdens that we can for our folks in the community.

- And is it, you know, I think about these things.

If you've got to go to court and address, you know, whatever one of these issues you just talked about, that's also a huge time.

You know, you've gotta maybe take time off work.

You've maybe gotta find childcare.

You've gotta, somebody else has to get kids to school, you've gotta work out your transportation.

All those things are beyond the legal services that you all provide.

Is that part of your purview in terms of how you're trying to help people?

Or is that not?

- It's something that we think about.

So our primary point of intervention with people is the legal piece.

That's really our specialty and what we're here to do.

But we do think deeply about those other intersecting issues that often affect people's ability to show up.

So like you mentioned, we think about childcare.

We think about ways that we can work with other community organizations who sort of specialize in areas that we don't necessarily provide services in, but we want to be able to work with people to sort of provide as holistic assistance as we can.

- So I'll go back to you, Constance, I mean similar questions of, you know, somebody who's dealing with one of these issues, maybe it's snowballed.

You know, they've gotten a second, third and fourth warning from a company.

They are confident that they're not in the wrong, but they don't have that time to deal with it.

And then once it's legal, it's a daunting system to deal with.

So is part of what you're trying to do is say, hey, it's daunting but there's free help, but you've gotta engage on this.

You can't just keep throwing away the notice.

You can't, I don't mean that casually.

I just mean that there's, life is what life is and maybe people, they don't understand or don't know that they have an option other than, and I hate saying it, but ignoring it.

- Right, right, so it has been my experience that a lot of people, they do ignore it.

Not because it's not important because they do not know what to do.

So we try to be really proactive about marketing our different clinics.

And I wanna add to your point about childcare and like people having to take off work to attend certain clinics, so that's why with the MBA, we partner with MAL specifically for our Second Saturday legal clinics.

We have it every month at the Benjamin Hooks library.

It's totally free.

Some people, they are off work on weekends, so that's like the perfect opportunity for them.

And sometimes there is a courthouse clinic, attorney of the day, where you can also go and receive free legal advice on issues.

So if you have a lunch break, like in the middle of the day, just slide through the courthouse and speak with an attorney and see if they can assist you.

But I like to actually have like a forum where people can talk, and not all the time are they able to have their legal issues resolved at the clinic 'cause sometimes it requires actual representation, but at least you've taken the first step, and now you're in an environment around individuals who have the capacity to take on your case maybe pro bono on their own or at a reduced fee or maybe at a full price, and there are payment plans, but at least now, you know, there are options like you said.

So that's what we try to keep in mind when we have these clinics, and we have different events for the community, - For Claudia, the family law, family issues, whether that's divorce or that's custody.

Those ones where, where do you all intersect with that?

Where are the limits with that?

That stuff can be very complicated, very emotional, very difficult.

And so where are the lines around those very tough situations?

- Yes, and I think speaking to what you were mentioning before, especially with family law issues, there's such a high level of emotion.

These issues are very closely held to people.

We're talking about their family, we're talking about your children, your household.

And so our family law practice is very much about sort of supporting the family stability, helping the family figure out solutions, whether that's with divorce, assistance with a divorce, with custody issues.

We also have services for people who are experiencing domestic violence as well.

So we help them with safety planning.

You know, their divorce may involve domestic violence issues.

I think for us, especially with family law, the challenge becomes capacity because as you mentioned, some of these cases and issues can be sort of very in depth.

They can be long lasting.

They can be sort of highly emotional and sensitive.

And so we really want to sort of be there with the family and focus on family cohesiveness and family stability throughout whatever the legal issue is.

But that requires time and resources, which sometimes I think the challenge is that that can limit our capacity in terms of the number of people that we can help.

So we have a very in depth approach.

We want to kind of be there and put our arms around the family as they go through this process.

But it can be challenging to do that at, you know, capacity with all the people that come to us for help.

- And again, in the weeds on that, there's a, you meet with a family or a spouse, you then represent them through court or you are referring them to a lawyer in your network.

Like how, I'm actually curious how all the logistics work of that, carrying it through.

- That's a great question.

So we do a little bit of both.

So we have in-house, in our new Memphis office, we have family law attorneys who are in-house who absolutely provide full representation in divorce cases, also assist with custody issues, whether that's mediation and helping the family sort of work through challenges with custody issues or whether that's court involvement.

A part of my role as pro bono staff attorney is, you know, when we have cases that, you know, either we don't have anyone who has bandwidth to take them or it's a particular issue within family law that maybe we don't have a specialist on staff, that's a part of what I do.

I go out and recruit attorneys in family law, but, of course, across various areas to lend us their expertise to come in and help those families.

And so we also allow attorneys, regardless of what their practice is during their sort of day job, you know, maybe they're in finance or maybe they're in housing, or, you know, maybe they're a bankruptcy attorney, regardless of what they do during the day, we give them the opportunity to come in, and if they have a desire to sort of help families that are going through this issue, we'll provide them with training on family law issues.

We provide them with staff mentors who are there, who have the experience, and they can talk to them about, you know, so if you see this issue, this is a way that you can deal with it.

And also, you know, you mentioned before, I love what Constance said about sometimes the challenge is maintaining connection with people as they go through this really difficult time.

So maybe that attorney, you know, is not accustomed to working with people who are going through very emotional and challenging issues.

And they might reach out to us and say, hey, I can't get in touch with this person.

So sometimes the way that our team helps those private attorneys who volunteer with us, it's really sort of in an advising role.

We want them to build their skillset in whatever area they're working in with these families.

But we also wanna be there with them through it to ensure that the family is still receiving the highest level of care that we can offer.

- It's interesting to me, Constance.

The position you're here, you by day you work for the City of Memphis, a lawyer.

You're not here in that capacity.

So this, you're here in a volunteer position, right, with the Bar Association.

- Definitely.

- There's a whole lot of, I have lots of friends who are lawyers, and there's, it's a big part of the culture of lawyering.

Not that every lawyer does a ton of pro bono work, but where, why, I mean, is that just at the root of the legal system?

Is that something you learn in law school that you're gonna do this?

I think, I mean where does that culture come from and people embracing going way outside their corporate law background to help a family in need or to help someone with some debt issues or whatever is going on.

- I'm so glad you asked that question.

- Yeah.

- So it's not a requirement.

We don't require that lawyers have a certain amount of pro bono hours, but we encourage it.

We encourage it because I like to say this all the time, attorneys, we have a skillset that a lot of different careers don't have.

We're able to help alleviate burdens.

We're able to advocate and be compassionate and actually have a good understanding of the law to help people through these issues.

A lot of attorneys, when I used to be the managing attorney of pro bono in Memphis Area Legal Services, I would encourage attorneys to volunteer.

To make it more attractive, I would say, you know, this is a way that you could really diversify your skillset.

You can learn an area of practice that you don't do on a day to day.

Like Claudia said, even though it may be a family law issue in front of you, you may be a tax attorney, but we have CLE, continuing legal education opportunities that can help you gain what you need to actually participate in a family law clinic, for example.

We also encourage mentorships.

So maybe we could pair you up with a more experienced attorney.

It's a great way to network, just a great way to build, like I said, build your skillset and also it feeds your soul.

You're giving back.

- Yeah, and just yeah, go ahead.

I mean, on that theme.

- Yeah, so it is so important.

Two things I'd add to that is we are also, we also provide volunteer opportunities for law students.

So, you know, for instance, a few weeks ago we participated in the University of Memphis Public Interest Law Fair, where we have these incredibly talented students who are here in the city.

They want to give back to the city where they've come to sort of get their legal education.

And we enjoy being able to give them that opportunity.

So in addition to attorneys, we have trainings for law students as well.

But I also think, you know, pro bono is sort of a shortened version of pro bono publico.

A lot of people think of it as, you know, free legal services or the free part of it, but it literally translates to for the public good.

And so I think a part of what we strive to do is remind people that that's really what this is about.

Using your skillset, using the profession that you've learned and that you've become a part of to serve the community and to serve the common good.

- And is part of it, and I don't mean this as cynically as it's gonna sound, but I mean there's a certain amount of, I mean, people go to law school, like maybe they come out, and they've got a tremendous amount of debt, they've got family, they're gonna make money.

And often those jobs are gonna be maybe not on that public good side.

I'm not saying it's bad.

I'm not beating up on lawyers.

- Right.

- But is that part of the appeal is like, look, this more closer to the idealistic notion of the law and what, and doing good.

You can tap into that here while you're also paying down your student loans and supporting your family and, you know, working in a perfectly good and honorable job.

Is that the balancing act you're trying to appeal to?

- I definitely think that's a part of it.

We try to be realistic about-- - Sure.

- You know, there are, I love how you framed it.

There are, I guess I would think of them as maybe like side effects of joining this profession.

You know, it is a very expensive education.

Not all attorneys sort of start with law school.

For me example, I was working in research, so I have a Master's in sociology.

So I was in research and in a completely different area before coming into the law.

Many attorneys have careers before the law.

So many of us have really dedicated our lives to education, and there is a cost of that.

So, you know, I am not here to, you know, judge how anyone decides to take care of their family.

I think my role and a part of what we wanna do is provide people the sort of maximum number of opportunities where if you are interested, if you have a heart for service, we have somewhere where you can serve this community.

- I should say 10 minutes left in show.

As lawyers and working in this space and doing other things and having done lots of other things, do you, again, I don't mean this as cynically as it's gonna sound, do you sometimes look at what the folks you're working with, the people in need, and you look at it and you say, man, this legal system sure puts a lot of hurdles in place for these people who can't afford to solve a pretty small, a real problem, but a pretty small problem.

I mean, does it bother you as a lawyer that the legal system can be so daunting?

- It bothers me as a lawyer.

It bothers me as a human.

[Eric chuckles] There have been many times I have cried because, you know, you hear some of these issues, and you're like, we have the tools.

We have the skillset.

If it was us, we could get out of it.

But you hear it, and you hear how long it's been going on, and your heart just bleeds for people.

I would say one of my most specific examples would be expungements.

You have so many individuals who they may have committed like a crime when they were 20, and now they're 60, 70 so years old, and they say, well I made a mistake.

And does it roll off with the years?

And how the legislation is set up today, it does not.

There are just certain qualifying misdemeanors and certain qualifying felonies, and that's the only thing that we can work with.

But if we can, and you know, in our capacities we can't really advocate for policy change, but we can make people aware by having these clinics and those who are able to advocate, they can advocate for shorter waiting periods.

Maybe we can lessen the time, instead of waiting five years before you're eligible or 10 years or 15 years, we could reduce that down.

Maybe we could have a broader scope of offenses that make it eligible for people to get an expungement.

Because when you have your record cleared, you're able to get housing.

You're able to get employed.

You're able to have that stigma erased that's been following you for so many years.

Some people say, "I've had a job.

"This doesn't stop me from working, but I hate that it's on my record."

You know, so when you hear that, and you know your hands are tied by legislation, it can be heartbreaking.

- Yeah, I'm gonna switch back into some of the specific areas, and one that I made note of is elder issues and senior citizen, aging population.

Everybody, I mean, as my parents have got older and friends around me, they get older.

There's a whole system out there that preys on old people.

In terms of signing up for things, phone calls, what maybe, what do you see the big problems and where you are able or trying to make the biggest impact with senior citizens and the challenges they specifically face?

- Yeah, so I think one of the ways that we try to support our elders is through supporting their financial situations.

So assisting them with the benefits, making sure that they are receiving the level of benefits and support that they are, that they meet the requirements for.

But also, you know, there are other ways that this comes up as well.

So we also help when situations that involve elder abuse on, you know, that I think requires a team effort because sometimes these situations can, from the legal perspective, come within an intersection of multiple legal areas.

Recently a team of us came together to try to support this family who was going through something that on the surface might look like a contract issue, but was really the root of it was about an elder in the family who was going through a difficult situation that involved abuse.

So I think for us it is how can we do so in a holistic way?

How can we support them?

How can we support their family, but also how can we support the families who support their elders?

I also think we, especially thinking about the holidays coming up, we also try to educate folks on scams.

I think that's a big one, especially for this time of year.

And our elders are a target for a lot of those scams.

And so I think a big part of what we do is also community education.

You know, I believe in people.

I believe in their ability to be empowered and to care for their selves and to care for their families.

But I think community education is a big part of that.

So that they are empowered, and they have the skills and the information that they need in order to protect themselves and their families.

- Five minutes left, stay with that, senior citizen.

I mean, again, it's this huge growing population, and those challenges, what are, beyond what Claudia said, the other challenges that you work with with senior citizens and families?

- What I've seen in my experience, there's a great need for senior citizens to actually take estate planning seriously.

You need a will, you know, you need powers of attorney.

You need healthcare directives.

You don't want something to happen and then you end up in need of a conservator because that situation is way more complicated, and it's way more complex.

And so I try to tell individuals, please find someone that you trust.

The person you trust with your healthcare, you may not necessarily trust with your finances.

So just make sure you have those people lined up.

Anything can happen, and that's just not even specific to elders, right?

That's any of us too, right?

Like we need to actually take that seriously because you don't want people to be concerned about how are we gonna distribute property when we're supposed to be planning a funeral, when we're supposed to grieve.

Like this is really something I really wish we could emphasize more.

So a large part of what, if I'm appointed again to be the chair, I wanna focus on in 2025 is more estate planning focused outreach.

- Yeah.

- Absolutely.

- With a couple minutes left, without getting wildly political, immigration's very much in the air right now, and we're taping this before Thanksgiving, and you know, so this has been a week plus before it airs.

Do either of you, I mean the work you all do with immigration now is what?

And how do you expect that might change with the new administration coming in?

I guess I'll give you that one first.

- Yes, so we, immigration is not one of our core areas that we focus on at this time.

However, we try to be a very needs-focused organization, and we try to respond to the needs of the community.

And we have been sort of conducting internal research about, you know, the level of need that is in this city, in this county.

And that's definitely something that we're thinking about moving forward is how to support.

- Do you wanna take that?

- And I would say Community Legal Center, they have an immigrant program, so I do not know how that will be impacted moving forward.

But I do know there's a need for funding.

There's always a need for support.

Right now it's still active and ongoing.

So anyone who sees this that may need help in that area, they could reach out to Community Legal Center right now.

- And you're on the board, right?

- I'm on the board.

- And what are those, right now, forget about the future 'cause it.

What are those needs from immigration right now that people come to something like Community Legal Center for?

- Well, sometimes there's a need for just citizenship.

Sometimes there's a need for different visas, maybe work visas, just anything concerning their ability to make a living while they're here and maybe become an actual American citizen while they're here.

Those are the type of needs that have been identified that I'm aware of at the organization.

And the program has been going on for quite some time.

There has been funding given for quite some time.

It's a very, very strong program, but it's a nonprofit so there's always a need for support.

- Last one I'll go to is healthcare, I think.

What kind of needs do you see in the healthcare space?

And I mean that I guess could be anything from medical debt and dealing with that to you talked about healthcare directives.

Other things that you have to, you help people navigate on the healthcare side?

- Yes, so I'll, you know, jumping off of what Constance said about, you know, wills and estate planning.

We recently had a wills and powers of attorney and advanced directives clinic that we partnered with the Memphis Medical Society on.

So I think a lot of issues that we're seeing with healthcare are about planning and about information and making sure that folks have the best information to make the best decisions for their future.

- Other thoughts?

- Definitely, I agree with what Claudia just said, but what I have also noticed, and I want us to work together as a community more to address the need for mental healthcare.

A lot of the clients that we see, yes, they may need a divorce, yes, they may need an expungement, but there are also underlying issues sometimes that relate to mental health.

And I just have not struck that medium where I'm able to, as the chair, partner with the organizations that provide such.

But I would like to really emphasize that moving forward 'cause to me that's a very significant need.

- For people who, we're almost outta time here.

People wanna learn more about what you do.

They can go to the website, they can go, where should they go?

- They can go to MemphisBarAssociation.org.

- Okay, and learn about all the programs.

And this is the Access to Justice Committee that you run.

And okay, and for you, where can they go?

- WTLS.org - And learn more.

Okay.

- Thank you both.

- Volunteers and attorneys.

- There we go.

Okay, thank you both for being here.

We appreciate it very much.

That is all the time we have this week.

If you recently missed, we had Bacarra Mauldin, the Interim CEO of MATA on last week.

You can get that at WKNO.org, at the Daily Memphian site or YouTube.

All of our past shows are there.

Coming up soon, CJ Davis, the Interim Chief of Police, but that's all the time we have.

Thanks very much.

We'll see you next week.

[intense orchestral music] [acoustic guitar chords]