- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of Think Tank with Steve Adubato has been provided by The Healthcare Foundation of New Jersey.

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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato.

For the next half hour you're gonna hear a compelling, important conversation about mental health and our youth, our teens, our preteens.

Incredibly important subject, with a compelling panel who understands this issue from a variety perspective.

We're honored to have once again, Dianne Grossman, co-founder of Mallory's Army, will explain that organization and why it matters so much.

Steve Margeotes joins us once again, Executive Director of Main Street Counseling Center.

Steve, did you just wave?

We know that it's you, okay.

(laughs) And also once again joins us, Christine Norbut Beyer, commissioner of the New Jersey Department of Children and Families.

I wanna thank all of you for joining us so much.

Thank you so much.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Can we, Dianne, can we do this?

Your daughter, Mallory, and we've talked about her so many times.

She's had such a positive impact on so many others, her tragic death at the age of 12.

Please let folks understand who she was, why she matters, and what Mallory's Army is, please.

- Thank you so much, Steve, for continuing to host us and spread word to this epidemic that I think is stealing our children's future.

You know, I tell everyone that my daughter Mallory was the everyday all-American little girl.

She was active, she was in gymnastics, she was a cheerleader.

My husband and I have been married for 20 plus years.

We're small business owners, you know, from the outside, everything was great.

You know, our older daughter had attended the same middle school, so we didn't really have concerns.

And then it started slowly, this relational style bullying, where it's, I like you on Tuesday, I don't like you on Wednesday.

I'm gonna talk about you on Friday.

Can you sleep over?

And so as the mom, we didn't really pay much attention to it, you know, it went reported some of the name calling and some of the issues that we were having.

We had an open conversation with the guidance counselor as to what was going on with Mallory and this group of girls that decided to put a target on Mallory's back, and blatantly harassed, intimidated and bullied her for about nine months.

Towards the end of the school year, it had been a couple of weeks, and we started to see some of Mallory's behaviors shifting and changing.

Of course, we chalked it up to everyday normal puberty, right, door slamming, I've got a stomachache, and things of that nature.

And then we had a meeting with the school on June 14th, and after a three hour meeting with the school, that fell pretty much on deaf ears, my very healthy, active, wonderful 12 year old daughter came home and took her own life.

And I tell everyone, Mallory's first attempt was her only attempt, which is why I lean my voice and created Mallory's Army to not only start the dialogue, but to hopefully educate parents, school administrators, legislators, everyone involved that has a minor touch to our children in our public school system.

That this is what's happening.

And unfortunately, Mallory is just a drop as to what I know in the circle that I now travel with.

- First of all, before we go to the commissioner and to Steven, I wanna thank you again for being with us, for sharing that painful story.

But Commissioner, I'm gonna go to you first.

When you hear Dianne talk about Mallory, as horrible as is for Dianne and her family, and Mallory at 12 years of age, it is not so isolated.

Is it, Commissioner?

- No, it's not.

It's not, and Dianne, thank you for sharing your story.

Unfortunately, it's not uncommon.

And you know, we know that suicide is one of the leading causes of death for children ages 10 to 24 in this country.

And, you know, since COVID, we believe that, you know, children are struggling to be able to find someone to speak to or feel comfortable sharing or expressing anxiety or depression, or things maybe that have been, you know, there, but are being exacerbated as a result of COVID.

And so, you know, there's so much work that we're trying to do at the state with our partners.

You know, I appreciate what Dianne is doing with her partners, and together I think we really have an opportunity to make some change.

- Thank you, Commissioner.

Steve, let me ask you this.

We'll keep talking about the pandemic, because there are so many factors as it relates to the mental health of our youth.

And we have a 12 year old daughter turning 13 in a about a month or so.

And we have other older boys and we worry about this like so many other parents.

But Steve, how much is social media and cyber bullying a part of this conversation?

Steve?

- I think it's a part of the situation without a doubt and has a negative impact.

I think social media combined with the trauma that adolescents have to experience, I mean, these are adult issues, Steve.

Sexual abuse, domestic violence, bullying.

Words hurt.

And how much can one person take?

It's a lot to endure.

And everybody has different levels of tolerance.

And I think trauma needs to be emphasized further, because trauma impacts functioning, decision making, confidence levels.

You can't say enough how these incidents like with Dianne's daughter impact a person's day-to-day function.

- Dianne, let me ask you to do this.

As we talk about social media, as we talk about cyber bullying, the pandemic, et cetera, and I know that with Mallory's Army, you talk to a lot of parents, but, and we've asked you this before, talk to parents watching right now, what advice do you have for them as it relates to the mental caring for their children who growing up very quickly as it relates to their children's mental health, please.

- I think that parents have to kind of wave the white flag and recognize that our children have a master's degree in Snapchat and we barely have an associate's.

So that's the biggest problem I think.

I also think that there is an excessive amount of use.

Our children are exposed to content that they are not mature enough to navigate.

You know, we know that when it comes down to rabbit holes, you know first you email or Google looking healthy eating habits, and the next thing you know, your child is in a chat room teaching them how to be bulimic and have an eating disorder, which of course.

So I think as parents, we have to be willing to recognize that social media is, you know, glitter in our life.

So I'm not suggesting that we completely get rid of it, but I think that we have to realize that children at the ages that they are being introduced to social media is far too young.

They can't navigate it.

Oftentimes they are left alone to their own thoughts, and they're left to kind of navigate it themselves, and they're just not mature enough.

If I could give parents one tip, it is number one, know your resources.

I think that's the biggest, when you, because you're gonna just-- - What resources?

- That's my point.

I think that the resources would be like to know, like when I was growing up, right, we would have a checklist on the refrigerator.

Call 911, this is poison control, this is that.

Well, parents need to have a Rolodex in their phone of resources.

What are the mental health in your area?

Because you can't wait until you get that three a.m. phone call.

You have to know ahead of time.

What is your school's-- - Go ahead, I'm sorry.

Go ahead, finish your question.

- What is the school's role play in that?

Do they have access to it?

You know, as parents, it is our responsibility that if the doors are open and there's a guest speaker, our butts need to be in the seats listening to what speakers like myself have to say.

Don't wait until there's a problem, show up and be a part of the solution.

- There are not enough mental health professionals, k for our teens, for the entire population dealing with mental health issues, but particularly for young people.

Commissioner, the program is called NJ?

- NJ4S.

- NJ4S, what is it?

- NJ4S, so NJ4S stands for New Jersey Statewide Student Support Services Network.

And now, you know why we call it NJ4S.

- We'll put the graphic, up the website.

What is it and why does it matter to this conversation about mental health and our youth?

- Yeah, so NJ4S is something that we developed here at the Department of Children and Families that we will be launching this upcoming academic year.

And it's intended to be an integrated prevention-focused statewide resource that will be available in every school, in every community in New Jersey.

- What is it?

- It will provide evidence-based support and prevention services.

So, you know, prevention of suicide, prevention of bullying, prevention of teen pregnancy, substance use, underage drinking, but not only providing the information and knowledge, education to the students and the faculty, but to entire families.

This will be the opportunity for parents to have access to resources and kind of the training or the education that Dianne is talking about, that we will have professionals, prevention specialists, as well as clinicians that will be available to the students, to the faculty and to parents.

I think, you know, it's prevention.

It'll also be brief clinical intervention and really helping students who need more help to be connected to resources in their communities, whether that's through our children's system of care for more deep end intervention, or you know, something really basic, peer-to-peer.

And the point that I wanna make is that sometimes the best solutions to support young people who are feeling depressed or anxious don't always have to be clinical.

You know, in fact, sometimes with appropriate and preventative upstream supports, we really can help mitigate-- - Hold on one second, Commissioner, I'm sorry for interrupting.

- Yeah.

- Upstream support, the language can get a little jargony for me.

- Sorry.

- What does upstream support mean?

- So that means before there's a problem, right.

Before there's problem, before a child is, a young person is presenting to a counselor or to their parent that, hey, you know, if a parent sees that a child's behavior is changing, or they're acting differently at home, they're getting more anxious or more angry, those signs we can do something about because we have the information.

- I just wanna be, Commissioner, I wanna manage time.

I'm so sorry, but I'm trying for time.

When we say we can do something, I'm looking at at Dianne.

And Dianne, I don't want to interpret your head shaking for what I think it means.

- My body language, I'm sorry, Steve and Christine, I respectfully, but we have the systems in place.

We have the New Jersey HIB, and I can tell you for a fact that the school systems are not following it.

And we know for a fact that bullying in school and online is one of the key components to today's suicide.

Adriana Kuch's situation down in South Jersey is a written video proof.

So while I understand-- - Not everyone knows that, Dianne.

- And I think the resources, please Steve, let me get this thought out.

- Who is that?

- Adriana Kuch.

She's the 14 year old girl that was beaten in the hallway down in South Mays Landing area and died two days later.

The bullying and the online abuse is our problem.

And I respect and think, and I use the word resources, I think parents do need resources, but the resources need to come from their pediatricians.

This is a medical condition that is induced.

My daughter did not have mental health issues until she was bullied online through Snapchat.

And my daughter didn't have Snapchat.

Those images were screenshotted to her.

And when I brought it to the school's attention in a three hour meeting with the anti-bullying specialist and the principal, I was told in writing that my daughter wasn't safe at school, to take her home, that they would deal with it.

Those girls were never issued an HIB, they were never held accountable.

- What's that?

- And they have now graduated high school.

- Okay, what is that?

They were never issued a what, Dianne?

- A HIB, a HIB.

- What does that mean?

- Which is what New Jersey hangs their hat on, saying how strong the New Jersey HIB statute is.

It's only valuable if it's enforced, Steve.

And these resources are only gonna work if the schools are doing their job.

- The Commissioner's not responsible for the local school districts and everything-- - No, not at all.

- This is complex stuff, absolutely, but Steve, bullying is not the totality of the problem, but it's a huge part of it.

And bullying, it's funny, the word bullying, and I don't wanna get on my soapbox here, but our daughter recently, 'cause they can see social media wise where their friends are, and if their friends are together and dis-invite someone or don't invite that kid, and the kid knows that everybody is at the mall, or everyone's doing whatever, and they're not, and they feel more and more isolated, that's not bullying.

But that kid has information that they're cut out, that they're isolated, that they're not included.

I'm making this more complex than maybe it is Steve, but what is bullying, define bullying today, and is it any different from the past?

And then what do you see as the resources, Steve?

- Well, I think a couple things, Steve.

Bullying is emotional and verbal domestic violence.

You hit somebody, you verbalize and you isolate them, you reject them, you abandon them, it hurts.

And how often can you cope with this constant pressure and constant thoughts?

This is the key, what we're seeing in therapy here at Main Street.

Those thoughts will not go away.

And it puts tremendous pressure on young people.

It would be difficult enough for adults to cope with this level of hostility, let alone children that do not have the experience.

- Real quick, we're going on a break right now.

HIB stands for harassment-- - Intimidation and bullying.

- Correct?

- Yes.

- Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, and I promise we'll continue the conversation right after this.

Our youth, their mental health and what all of us need to do to protect our kids better than we're doing right now.

We'll be right back.

To watch more Think Tank with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We're back talking about the mental health, our youth, and their mental health.

Commissioner, from your perspective, the pandemic, will we ever really understand the impact, particularly the longterm impact on the mental health of young people from COVID?

- I don't think so.

You know, I think it's really, it's gonna be very challenging for us to fully understand the impact because, you know, what Dianne is talking about also is social media, and I think kids ended up getting more isolated during that time.

They were online a lot more.

We were looking at the department to put resources out online for students in the classroom to be able to access supports and help and hotline numbers if they needed that.

But, you know, now kind of the fallout and what we're seeing, I don't know how much is just strictly related to the pandemic and how much is kind of, as Steve is saying, you know, just young people and the environments in which they're living in and going to school in is also having an impact.

- Dianne, when you're out there, again, Mallory's Army, the information will go up right now about the website, the organization, and the website will help you get more information.

Dianne, to what degree do you believe the pandemic has changed your ability and the organization to have open-handed important, sometimes painful conversations about mental health and our teens?

- I think what the pandemic did is it put the devices in our kids' hand.

And you know, we were all kind of struggling during that period, parents are trying to work from home, kids are trying to school from home.

So I think we all got caught in the cookie jar, and it gave our children access to content and online issues.

I think the biggest problem we have is that parents struggle with if I don't give my child Snapchat or TikTok, then I'm isolating them myself.

Because keep in mind that's where kids hang out.

- That's right.

- I would say to your point about the comment that you made about my kids friends are hanging out.

I always say to parents, if your child is not invited to the birthday party, that's not bullying.

But when the kids take pictures and tag your child and say, you know, almost like na-na-na-na, you're not here-- - That's it.

- Or FaceTiming from the birthday party and say, you know, my mom said I could only invite 10 friends, and you're my 11th friend, that is bullying.

And I think understanding that technology is now part of our lives and we have to incorporate it in too, I think parents have to do a better job of limiting the access to it.

You know, remember it's glitter in our lives.

It's supposed to showcase us, but I see these kids 24-7.

And parents "yeah but" me to death with well, if I take her phone away, exactly, I have it.

You know, if I take her phone away, I'm now bullying her.

- Dianne, we, because our kids, see, listen I don't wanna turn this into a discussion purely about social media because it's so much more than that, but we go down rabbit holes.

We go down rabbit holes as adults.

And someone says, well I'm just looking at cats or dog video, okay, but at times we go down rabbit holes that impact, it impacts our mental health.

And if we have better coping, well supposedly better coping mechanisms, so Steve, I'll come back to Dianne in a second, but Steve, this is the struggle that I know that it's not just my wife and I.

We'll often say, she'll often say, Steve, leave it alone.

Let it play out.

Let the kids, my wife Jen, I hope she's not watching right now.

Let the kids work it out, 12, 13 years old.

Let the girls work it out.

Let them work it out.

If we don't believe they have the coping skills, Steve, I know it's case by case, there's a question here, I know, but trust me there is, letting it go, letting it play out, let kids be kids.

Has that conversation changed dramatically, because the stakes are so much higher today, Steve?

- I think what you've given us an example of is minimizing it, let 'em work it out.

This is serious issues that have serious impacts.

So I would not, I wouldn't, I think it's better to get over involved than under involved.

- Yeah, but here's the reaction to that.

And again, and when I talk about our family, I'm trying to, I hope it's representative of so many others.

This is the conversation that our daughter will have with us.

Dad, if you say something, if I let them know that I'm upset about that, and you, God forbid, talk to another parent, then everyone will know that I did.

And then I'm like, okay, so I don't wanna make it worse, but I don't wanna just let it go and play out.

Dianne, please.

And I'll come back to you, Commissioner.

- Yeah, that's exactly what my daughter, after we left the meeting at the, with the principal on June 14th, as we were leaving the building, Mallory looked at me and her dad and said you don't know these girls.

You just made it worse.

And that's what's in their heads, and that's what it is.

I think that the problem with it is is that we're expecting our children to be resilient.

Resilience skills are built through socialization and through playground, through interaction.

Today's parents, we do intervene on the playground.

We do intervene in play dates.

So our children are growing up as young as two and three and four and five years old watching parents intervene and interact with their playing.

And so they're not building the real resilient skillset.

And so then when they get to middle school, and we're like, well, why don't you just ignore it?

We can't ask them to do that, because we haven't given them the skills or the training to figure it out.

Which is why we say, when I was a kid our parents didn't get involved.

Well, they didn't.

But today's parents are involved.

And so that requires parents getting involved in order to get resolution, because kids don't know how to do it by themselves.

- We got a couple minutes left here.

There's so much ground to cover, and I promise, we're not fans of those, our colleagues in the media who say, yeah, we did a program on youth and mental health.

Check off the box, next topic.

So much more work needs to be done.

Commissioner, how about this?

Our producers brought up this issue that youth in the LGBTQ+ community are particularly being targeted right now.

And mental health issues that they are facing are even, they're not worse, but it's very complex and difficult, particularly with public conversations and legislation and public discussion about identifying who those kids are, those kids having their parents have to be told.

And where am I going with this?

Commissioner, help me because there's a lot of talk, but do we understand the mental health issues in the LGBTQ+ community with teens, please.

- Yeah, I mean, I think there are, the LGBTQ+ community has the same issues that we've just been talking about for the last 20 minutes or so.

But they're exacerbated because it's one more thing that those children then have to deal with or feel very uncomfortable with.

I think, you know, maybe the attorney general is currently leading an effort to address local school policies that would effectively out students, as you're saying, including-- - Including lawsuits.

- Right, which could exacerbate it or make those issues worse.

I mean, I think all of what we're talking about here, it's twofold, I mean, we have to be able to provide students with the social and emotional supports to help build their resilience at a young age, but at the same time, we also need to be providing parents with the right information and the words so that they feel comfortable talking to their students and understand maybe how to get involved, or when to get involved, and how to support them through their challenges.

But this is not, you know, there's not one thing that any of us are gonna do to be able to help our students through their mental health challenges.

And I think the earlier we can start in building resilience and educating and providing resources to parents, we're gonna be much better off.

- No easy answers, but the conversation doesn't solve the problem.

But we need to keep talking about it in a substantive, meaningful way with people who care deeply, like the three of you.

To Dianne, to Steve, to you, Commissioner, I wanna thank all of you for joining us.

I promise we'll be back continuing to talk about these issues of mental health, particularly involving young people.

Thank you so much, we appreciate it.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- I'm Steve Adubato, we thank you for being with us, and we wish you and your family, particularly the young people in your family, all the best.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by The Healthcare Foundation of New Jersey.

The Turrell Fund, supporting Reimagine Childcare.

RWJBarnabas Health.

Newark Board of Education.

PSEG Foundation.

The North Ward Center.

The New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

Seton Hall University.

And by Valley Bank.

Promotional support provided by NJBIZ.

And by NJ.Com.

How do you create change?

By cultivating hope.

And we see that every day, in the eyes of our preschoolers, in the souls of the seniors in our adult day program, in the minds of the students at Robert Treat Academy, a national blue ribbon school of excellence, in the passion of children in our youth leadership development program, in our commitment to connections at the Center for Autism, and in the heart of our community, the North Ward Center, creating opportunities for equity, education, and growth.