THE END GAME IN AFGHANISTAN, BOYCOTTING THE BEIJING OLYMPICS, AND THE UNEMPLOYMENT CLIFF JUST AROUND THE CORNER.

STAY TUNED, IVORY TOWER IS NEXT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FROM UTICA COLLEGE.

I'M JOINED TONIGHT BY JAMILA MICHENER FROM CORNELL UNIVERSITY, BOB SPITZER FROM SUNY CORTLAND, AND TWO OLD REGULARS ON THE PROGRAM--LISA DOLAK FROM THE SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF LAW, AND FORMER HOST DAVID RUBIN.

WELCOME BACK.

WHAT A WEEK TO BE BACK.

WE'LL BEGIN, OF COURSE, WITH AFGHANISTAN, THE CALAMITOUS END GAME OF THE AMERICAN PRESENCE AND THE RETURN OF THE TALIBAN TO POWER.

IT ALL HAPPENED SO FAST, AND IT APPEARS THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS MOVING SO SLOWLY IN GETTING PEOPLE OUT, THAT THOUSANDS OF AFGHANS WHO HELPED THE UNITED STATES COULD BE LEFT BEHIND.

BIDEN SAID LAST NIGHT TROOPS WILL STAY UNTIL ALL AMERICANS HAVE BEEN EVACUATED.

LET'S START WITH THE BIG QUESTION-DESPITE THE CHAOTIC EXIT, DID BIDEN, AND TRUMP BEFORE HIM, MAKE THE RIGHT CALL TO WITHDRAW?

BOB SPITZER?

>> WELL, THE BOTTOM LINE FOR ME, FOR THAT QUESTION, IS YES, BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF PARTS TO THIS.

LET ME BEGIN AT THE BEGIN-- AT CURRENT MOMENT AND GO BACKWARDS.

SO BIDEN, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS FUMBLED THE EXIT.

IT'S CLEAR FROM THINGS BIDEN HAS SAID AS RECENTLY AS A WEEK AGO, THEY DID NOT HAVE A HANDLE ON WHAT WAS LIKELY TO HAPPEN.

I THINK THE IDEA THAT THE REGIME THAT WE SUPPORTED COLLAPSED SHOULD COME AS A SURPRISE TO NOBODY.

THE ONLY SURPRISE IS HOW RAPIDLY IT HAPPENED.

AND THE LARGER LESSON FOR ME IS THAT MILITARY CONQUEST IS NOT A WAY TO ENGAGE IN NATION BUILDING.

IF YOU GO BACK TO 2001, RIGHT?

, THE INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN UNDER PRESIDENT BUSH, WE WENT IN TO GO AFTER BIN LADEN.

FINE.

ACTUALLY, AND BUSH LET BIN LADEN GET AWAY.

THEY COULD HAVE GOTTEN HIM.

BUT THE LARGER POINT IS THAT WE HAD A HUGE FORCE THERE.

THAT WAS THE MOMENT, IF THERE WAS A MOMENT, WHEN WE COULD HAVE REALLY HELPED AFGHANISTAN REBUILD IN A MEANINGFUL WAY.

BUT OF COURSE IMMEDIATELY IN 2002, BUSH STARTS PULLING TROOPS OUT OF THERE TO SEND THEM FOR THE INVASION TO IRAQ.

AND THAT, I THINK, SPELLED THE END GAME THAT WE ARE AT NOW?

SO IS WITHDRAWING A SOUND REALIGNMENT, DAVID?

REALIGNMENT OF POLICY?

>> I THINK BIDEN IS GETTING BEAT UP AT THIS POINT UNFAIRLY.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAD BUSH IN THIS FOR EIGHT YEARS.

YOU HAD OBAMA IN THIS FOR EIGHT YEARS.

YOU HAD TRUMP IN THIS FOR FOUR YEARS.

THE FIRST TWO NEVER HAD THE GUTS TO END IT.

TRUMP, TO HIS CREDIT, WANTED TO END IT BUT DID IT IN THE WORST CONCEIVABLE WAY BY HAVING THESE PHONY PEACE TALKS GOING ON, WHICH EVERYBODY KNEW WAS A CHARADE.

AND SIMPLY SIGNALED TO THE DEVELOPMENT PLAN TALIBAN THAT WE WERE GETTING OUT OF THERE AND AS A RESULT MADE WHAT YOU ARE SEEING NOW MUCH MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE THE MINUTE, BOB, YOU GO AWAY FROM KABUL TO ROUND UP AMERICANS AND INTERPRETERS AND OTHERS WHO HELPED US TO SECRETLY GET THEM OUT OF THE COUNTRY AND MOVE THEM TO CAN YOU BELIEVE KABUL, EVERYBODY IS GOING TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON.

THERE WAS NO GOOD WAY FOR THIS TO COME TO AN END OTHER THAN YOU RIP OFF THE BAND-AID AND YOU DO IT AND BIDEN DID IT.

AND THE OTHERS DIDN'T DO IT, OR WORSE, GOT US INTO IT AND BIDEN DESERVES 99% CREDIT FOR GETTING THIS THING OVER AND IN TERMS OF THE 1% OF THE BLAME?

I WANT TO WAIT TO SEE HOW THIS ALL TURNS OUT.

MAYBE THIS AIRLIFT, A HUGE AIRLIFT-- NOTHING LIKE THIS HAS BEEN DONE SINCE INDIA WAS GETTING ITS OWN CITIZENS OUT OF THE GULF IN THE FIRST KUWAIT WAR.

NOTHING LIKE THIS HAS BEEN ATTEMPTED.

SO LET'S SEE IF WE CAN GET 70 OR 80,000 PEOPLE OUT BUT I'M NOT JUDGING BIDEN EITHER WAY WHETHER HE CAN DO IT, BASED ON COMPARED TO THE IMPORTANCE OF GETTING OUT.

>> LOOK, I'M NOT ONESSED THAT WE COULD NOT HAVE-- I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT WE COULD HAVE NOT MAINTAINED SOME LEVEL OF FORCE THERE, NOT TO NATION BUILD, BUT TO MAINTAIN STABILITY FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME, MAYBE EVEN INDEFINITELY.

I AM MORE TROUBLED BY REPORTS OF BIDEN'S STUBBORNNESS AND HIS SORT OF DETERMINATION TO STICK TO HIS PATH, HIS DETERMINATION TO GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, WHICH HE MADE CLEAR IN 2009 THAT HE THOUGHT, WHEN HE WAS SERVING AS VICE PRESIDENT, THAT WE HAD TO GET OUT.

IT SEEMS TO ME HE MADE UP HIS MIND THEN AND HAS NOT BEEN LISTENING TO INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS AND HIS ADVISERS WHO HAVE BEEN COUNSELING HIM ABOUT THE RISKS OF THIS STRATEGY.

AND I WOULD ADD THAT, IN ALL THE TALK THAT HAS HAPPENED THIS WEEK, ABOUT AFGHANISTAN AND WHAT IS GOING ON AND THE EVACUATION, THERE HAS NOT BEEN NEARLY ENOUGH DISCUSSION ABOUT THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES OF THIS WITHDRAWAL, INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, WE ARE LIKELY TO SEE JUST GROSS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, POTENTIALLY ULTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, BACK TO WHERE WE WERE, WHICH IS ESTABLISHING A HAVEN FOR EXTREMISTS OR ALLOWING A HAVEN FOR EXTREMISTS WHICH WILL WASH UP ON OUR DOORSTEPS POTENTIALLY AND THE POTENTIAL DESTABILIZATION OF PAKISTAN.

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THAT.

I AGREE.

WE ALL KNEW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS WAS COMING AND I'M GOING TO FAULT THE MEDIA HERE FOR NOT HAVING SPOKEN MORE ABOUT THESE CONSEQUENCES AND WHAT WAS THE PLAN FOR EVACUATION AND WITHDRAWAL OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS.

BUT I AGREE WITH BOB, THAT THE WITHDRAWAL ITSELF HAS BEEN SERIOUSLY... >> SYRIA, LIBYA, YEMEN, ALL OF THESE AREAS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS DISASTERS AND WE HAD A ROLE IN THEM ONE WAY OR ANOTHER AND NOW YOU ARE FOCUSING ON THIS ONE.

>> AND THERE ARE HUMAN RIGHTS DISASTERS GOING ON ALL OVER THE WORLD.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND I REALLY WANT TO UNDERSCORE WHAT BOB INITIALLY SAID, WHICH IS I TAKE AWAY THE LESSON I TAKE FROM THIS IS PERHAPS PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE LESSON THAT I WILLSA TAKES AWAY-- THAT LISA TAKES AWAY.

THAT WE SHOULD NOT ENGAGE IN THIS GEOPOLITICAL GLOBALISM IN AN ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN QUOTE UNQUOTE STABILITY IN COUNTRIES OR ADVANCE DEMOCRACY OR WHATEVER OTHER SORTS OF JUSTIFICATION WE OFTEN HAVE FOR HAVING A MILITARY PRESENCE IN COUNTRIES OTHER THAN OUR OWN.

I THINK THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW MISGUIDED THIS STRATEGY IS AND I AGREE WITH LISA THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF RAMIFICATIONS THAT FLOW FROM THAT BUT IF ANYTHING WHAT WEIGH SHOULD BE LEARNING IS THAT WE OUGHT TO BE VERY CAUTIOUS AROUND THAT INTERVENTION AND ENGAGEMENT, NOT THAT WE OUGHT TO BE DAGGING IT OUT OR DOING MORE TO PROLONG IT, THAT BEING SAID, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS A GRAVE RESPONSIBILITY TO GET AS MANY PEOPLE OUT AND HELP AS MANY OF OUR ALLIES AS POSSIBLE, GIVEN THE SITUATION AS IT IS.

>> WHAT IS OUR OBLIGATION THERE WE SHOULD-- WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY-- >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> A MORAL OBLIGATION.

>> YOU ARE SAYING THAT THIS GLOBAL MILITARISM, WE SHOULD NOT BE ENGAGING IN THAT, BUT WHEN IS IT IN AMERICA'S INTEREST TO FIGHT A GROUND WAR.

>> I DON'T THINK THERE IS A PREEXISTING UNIVERSAL STANDARD FOR THAT.

WE WENT AFTER BIN LADEN IN 2001 AND THAT MOVERRED INTO WHERE WE ARE NOW.

I WILL SAY THAT DONALD TRUMP'S INSTINCTS ABOUT AVOIDING MILITARY ADVENTURISM ABROAD WAS RIGHT, OF COURSE BEING TRUMP, HE HAD NO LOGIC OR FACTS BUT HIS SENSE ABOUT THAT WAS RIGHT AND BIDEN'S SENSE WAS RIGHT BECAUSE ONE OF THE REASONS TRUMP DID NOT COMPLETE THE PULLOUT WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT BECAUSE THE GENERALS WERE TELLING HIM DON'T DO IT.

THIS IS A MOMENT WHERE A CIVILIAN DECISION MAKING BY BIDEN WAS FUNDAMENTALLY RIGHT EVEN THOUGH THE METHOD BY WHICH THIS IS OCCURRING WAS MISBEGOTTEN.

THIS WASN'T ENOUGH DETAILS THAT WE ARE GOING TO LEARN ABOUT AND THE DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS, SAME POLITICAL PARTY AS BIDEN, WANT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS STUFF AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE INVESTIGATING THEIR OWN PRESIDENT AND CONDUCTING HEARINGS.

>> WHAT ABOUT REFUGEE FLOWS.

THERE ARE POTENTIALLY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF REFUGEES COMING TO EUROPE AND THE U.S. SHOULD WE TAKE MORE IN?

>> THAT'SINGS A PROBLEM-- THAT IS A PROBLEM BUT HERE, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE IS THE GOOD SIDE TO THIS.

I MEAN THE REFUGEE CRISIS IS NOT THE GOOD SIDE, BUT THIS PROBLEM NOW IN AFGHANISTAN IS NOW PAKISTAN'S PROBLEM.

AND RUSSIA'S PROBLEM AND TAJIKISTAN'S PROBLEM AND IRAN'S PROBLEM.

IT'S THE NEIGHBORS.

>> CHINA'S PROBLEM.

>> IT IS NO LONGER OUR PROBLEM.

WE CREATED IT AND WE ARE WALKING AWAY FROM IT.

AND IT'S IMMORAL, BUT IT IS NOT OUR PROBLEM.

IT IS THEIR PROBLEM AND I GUARANTEE YOU THAT AFGHANISTAN IS NOT GOING TO BE A UNITED COUNTRY UNDER THE TALIBAN THE NORTHERN ALLIANCE THIS MORNING ALREADY SAID THEY'RE GOING TO FIGHT AGAIN, UNITE AGAINST THE TALIBAN, OTHER GROUPS IN AFGHANISTAN COMING FOR THEIR OWN PURPOSES.

IT IS GOING TO BE TERRIBLE.

>> JUST LIKE 25 YEARS AGO.

WE ARE GOING FUNDING NORTHERN ALLIANCE AND-- >> YES!

>> DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN?

>> AT TACK ON THE NORTHERN ALLIANCE COMMANDER IS WHAT SIGNALED 9/11.

SO YES, WE ARE RIGHT BACK TO THE BEGINNING.

>> I WILL SAY I DON'T AGREE WITH LISA SAYING THAT THE MEDIA HAS NOT BEEN GIVING COVERAGE OR CONSIDERATION OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS IN TERMS OF FUTURE TERRORIST THREATS, THE QUESTION, FOR EXAMPLE, OF WHETHER WITHIN THESE REFUGEES ARE THERE TERRORIST SLEEPERS.

THAT'S BEEN DISCUSSED.

>> UP UNTIL THE POINT THIS PAST WEEKEND, THERE WASN'T A WHOLE LOT-- AND THE ARTICLES WERE SAYING HOW COME THINGS ARE MOVING SO SLOWLY, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE SPECIAL S.I.V.

VISAS HAVEN'T BEEN PROCESSED.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME ABOUT THAT BUT NOT BEEN-- >> CLEARLY BECAUSE EVENTS HAVE CASCADED RAPIDLY IT IS TAKING A WHILE FOR THE COVERAGE AND AMALSIS TO CATCH UP, I THINK.

>> THE TOKYO OLYMPICS SOMEHOW MADE IT TO THE FINISH LINE.

HERE'S THE NEXT OLYMPIC CONTROVERSY: SHOULD THE UNITED STATES BOYCOTT THE UPCOMING WINTER GAMES IN BEIJING?

THEY'RE ONLY A FEW MONTHS AWAY.

CHINA HAS BEEN REPRESSING THE MUSLIM UYGHUR, CLAMPING DOWN ON HONG KONG DEMOCRACY PROTESTERS, THREATENING TAIWAN, STEALING PRIVATE DATA, AND IT'S NOT COOPERATING ON THE INVESTIGATION INTO COVID.

IS GOING TO BEIJING REWARDING PRESIDENT SHI FOR CHINA'S HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES?

DAVID?

>> >> WELL THESE DAYS GETTING THE OLYMPICS IS NO REWARD.

IT BANKRUPTS WHATEVER COUNTRY GETS THEM.

CHINA CAN HAVE THEM.

AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, THESE COMPLAINTS ARE JUST DUMB POSTURING.

THIS ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

THE GAMES ARE GOING TO OCCUR.

NBC HAS CONTRACTS, THEY PAID RIGHTS MONEY, ADVERTISERS ARE LINED UP SO THESE GAMES ARE GOING TO HAPPEN.

AND MOST IMPORTANT FOR ME IS THE ATHLETES, WHO HAVE BEEN PREPARING FOR THESE GAMES FOR YEARS, IT'S THEIR LIVES.

THEY WANT TO COMPETE.

AND IT DOESN'T MATTER TO THEM THAT THEY'RE COMPETING IN CHINA.

THEY WANT TO COMPETE.

AND WE SHOULD SEND THEM TO COMPETE.

AND I WOULD REMIND YOU THAT JIMMY CARTER IN 1979, WHEN THE OLYMPICS WERE PLANNED FOR THE MOSCOW OLYMPICS AND THE RUSSIANS HAD JUST INVADED AFGHANISTAN, JIMMY CARTER WAS ANGRY ABOUT IT AND SAID, WELL, THEN WE ARE NOT GOING TO GO.

AND WE DIDN'T GO.

AND OUR ATHLETES ARE THE ONES WHO PAID THE PRICE.

DID THE GAMES OCCUR?

YES.

DID OUR ATHLETES PARTICIPATE?

NO.

AND THEY WERE THE ONES WHO WERE HURT BY THIS.

SO WE NEED TO GO AHEAD.

THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY IS THE INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE NEEDS TO STOP MOVING THE GAMES AROUND.

STOP SENDING THEM TO AUTHORITARIAN COUNTRIES, SEND THEM BACK TO ATHENS, LEAVE THEM THERE.

>> BUT THE BIG LESSON THAT YOU DIDN'T MENTION ABOUT 1980 AND THAT BOYCOTT WAS THAT IT HAD NO CONSEQUENCES TO FOREIGN POLICY.

>> NO CONSEQUENCES.

>> HOW DID THAT HELP ANYTHING OR FIX ANYTHING?

IT DIDN'T.

THE THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IS THE OLYMPIC COMMITTEE GAVE THE GAMES TO CHINA MAINTAIN FIRST PLACE.

IF YOU OBJECT TO THAT DON'T DO IT.

CHINA WANTS THEM THERE FOR REASONS THAT ARE OBVIOUS.

THEY HAD THE SUMMER GAMES IN 2008, AND YOU KNOW, THE HORSE IS OUT OF THE BARN AS FAR AS THAT'S CONCERNED AND I AGREE WITH THE REST OF WHAT YOU SAID.

>> ULTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, BOYCOTTING THE OLYMPICS IS MORE SORT OF SIGNALING THAN IT IS SUBSTANCE.

I MEAN IF WE DECIDE THAT WE WANT TO RESPOND IN WHATEVER WAY TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES GOING ON IN CHINA, BOYCOTTING THE OLYMPICS JUST ISN'T THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY OF DOING SO.

I AGREE WITH BOB THAT WHEN WE DID IT FOR THE 1980 OLYMPICS IN MOSCOW, IT WASN'T ABESPECIALLY EFFECTIVE WAY OF RESPONDING TO THAT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IF WE THINK ABOUT A PRIOR HISTORICAL EXAMPLE, THE 1936 OLYMPICS AND PROVIDE COULD THING THE SORT OF NAZI REGIME, WE DIDN'T DO THAT, RIGHT?

BUT THERE WERE ATHLETES THAT WENT THERE THAT MANY PEOPLE SAID MADE MORE OF A STATEMENT, JESSE OWENS, FOR EXAMPLE, MADE MORE OF A STATEMENT AND DID MORE WORK TO UNDERMINE THE NAZI IDEOLOGY BY BEING PRESENT AND BY BEING VICTORIOUS THAN IF WE HAD ALTERNATIVELY BOYCOTTED.

THESE THINGS ARE COMPLEX AND MESSY BUT ULTIMATELY RESPONDING TO HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD NOT BE DONE THROUGH THESE KINDS OF MECHANISMS BECAUSE THEY'RE SIMPLY NOT EFFECTIVE.

>> LISA.

>> NO ARGUMENT FROM ME.

I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN SAID.

CHINA IS NOT LIKELY TO BE DISWADED FROM ITS COURSES OF ACTION BY BOYCOTTS AND THE ATHLETESES WILL BE THE ONES TO SUFFER.

>> COMMERCIAL SPONSORS ARE NOT GOING TO TURN AWAY.

>> A U.S.

BOYCOTT AT THIS POINT, IF ONE WERE TO OCCUR, MIGHT RING A LITTLE HOLLOW AFTER WHAT IS HAPPENING IN AFGHANISTAN WITH THE WOMEN AND GIRLS THERE.

>> AMEN.

>> AND AFTER THE 1980 BOYCOTT, THE SOVIET UNION BOYCOTTED THE 1984 SUMMER OLYMPICS HERE IN LOS ANGELES AND IT WAS ANOTHER MOMENT WHEN ATHLETES DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO COMPETE AND WHAT DID THAT, IN TURN ACCOMPLISH?

>> THEIR ATHLETES ARE ALL ON DOPE ANYWAY.

>> WELL, THAT WAS-- >> STILL ARE.

>> A SERIOUS PROBLEM IN EASTERN EUROPE AND IN RUSSIA, YEAH.

>> NOW WHILE THE ECONOMY SEEMS TO BE BOUNCING BACK PRETTY WELL, THE DELTA VARIANT IS NOW SURGING JUST WHEN 7 MILLION PEOPLE ARE ABOUT TO LOSE THEIR EXTENDED UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS FOUR MILLION UNEMPLOYED GIG WORKERS WOULD BE BACK TO NO BENEFITS.

THE JOBLESS RATE IS STILL ABOVE 8% FOR BLACKS AND 6% FOR HISPANICS.

LAST MONTH BIDEN DID NOT SEEM INCLINED TO PUSH FOR ANOTHER EXTENSION.

IF HE WON'T, SHOULD CONGRESS ACT?

JAMILA?

>> YEAH, I DON'T THINK THAT THAT IS A KIND OF VIABLE OR STRONG POLITICAL POSSIBILITY, SO THE QUESTION OF WHETHER CONGRESS SHOULD ACT IS BOTH A QUESTION OF PRACTICALITY, THE FOLKS IN CONGRESS WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT EXTENSION HAPPEN, DO THEY HAVE A REAL CHANCE OF MOVING THAT FORWARD?

LIKELY NOT.

BUT THAT'S A QUESTION OF PRACTICALITY.

THEN THERE IS THE QUESTION, THE MORAL QUESTION, WHICH IS SHOULD THIS HAPPEN?

WOULD THAT BE THE RIGHT THING?

AND I THINK THAT ACTUALLY BEGS A LARGER QUESTION ABOUT WHAT CONTINUING RESPONSIBILITY WE HAVE TO PROVIDE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFECTED ECONOMICALLY AND THEN IN OTHER WAYS BY THE PANDEMIC AND I THINK MANY FOLKS WOULD LIKE TO THINK IT'S OVER AND SO OUR RESPONSIBILITY IS OVER, BUT IT'S NOT OVER.

AND IT'S NOT CLEAR WHEN IT WILL BE OVER.

AND THERE ARE CONTINUING EFFECTS AND THOSE EFFECTS TEND TO LINGER IN THE COMMUNITIES THAT WERE ALREADY MOST VULNERABLE BEFORE THE PANDEMIC.

PEOPLE OF COLOR, PEOPLE WHO WERE ALREADY LIVING IN POVERTY OR NEAR THE ECONOMIC BRINK, AND WHETHER WE WANT TO ADMIT IT OR NOT, WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THOSE FOLKS ARE LIVING ABOVE BASIC STANDARD OF LIVING.

CONGRESS SHOULD BE DOING SOMETHING.

WHETHER THIS SPECIFIC BATTLE OVER EXTENDING UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS IS ONE THAT IS GOING TO BE WINNABLE IS AN OPEN QUESTION, AND IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THERE IS MUCH WILL FOR IT.

BUT THAT DOESN'T TAKE THE LARGER QUESTIONS ABOUT TAKING CARE OF PEOPLE IN THE CONTEXT OF A DEVASTATING PANDEMIC.

THAT DOESN'T TAKE THOSE QUESTIONS OFF OF THE TABLE.

>> DAVID?

>> WELL, I WOULD BE OPPOSED.

THERE ARE-- IT'S VERY DIFFICULT NOW FOR MANY BUSINESSES TO GET HELP.

LABOR IS ASCENDANT, WAGES ARE GOING UP.

NOW IS THE TIME THAT PEOPLE OUGHT TO GO BACK TO WORK.

>> EVEN IF THERE IS THE DELTA VARIANT, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, SURGING?

>> LET ME FINISH THE BUT.

I WOULD SAY THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO EXTEND THESE BENEFITS, THERE WOULD BE ONE CONDITION FOR EACH PERSON WHO ACCEPTS THE BENEFITS.

YOU HAVE TO BE VACCINATED.

YOU HAVE TO BE VACCINATED.

>> I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.

AND I ALSO GO FURTHER TO THE EXTENT GOVERNMENT-- THERE HAS BEEN EXTRAORDINARY GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR THE ECONOMY IN THE LAST 18 MONTHS.

I THINK THAT HAS BEEN APPROPRIATE.

AND WE MAY NEED TO CONTINUE IT BUT I THINK WE NEED TO START THINKING DIFFERENTLY ALONG THE LINES THAT DAVID IS TALKING ABOUT AND, FOR EXAMPLE, HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

HERE'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE.

YOU KNOW MAYOR DE BLASIO OF NEW YORK CITY IMPOSED AN INDOOR MANDATE FOR HITTING SMALL RESTAURANTS AND BUSINESSES HARD BECAUSE NOW THEY HAVE TO ENFORCE THIS VACCINE MANDATE.

WHAT WOULD I LIKE TO SEE IS THE GOVERNMENT SUPPORT THOSE SMALL BUSINESSES IN IMPLEMENTING AND ENFORCING THOSE KINDS OF VACCINE MANDATES.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THOSE VACCINE MANDATES SPREAD BUT I UNDERSTAND THE IMPACT THEY HAVE ON SMALL BUSINESSES SO I WOULD RATHER SEE DIFFERENT NOW LIKE, YOU KNOW, LET'S TURN THE SUPPORT IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION AND THINK HOW WE CAN ENCOURAGE VACCINATIONS BECAUSE VACCINATIONS ARE THE ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS.

>> ONE OTHER PIECE TO THIS PUZZLE.

THERE ARE 10 MILLION JOB OPENINGS IN AMERICA.

SEVEN MILLION PEOPLE ARE STANDING-- POISED TO LOSE UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE 10 MILLION COULD SIMPLY THAT-- THAT THE 7 MILLION COULD FILTER INTO THE 10 MILLION OPEN JOBS BUT THE OTHER PART OF THIS IS THE FACT THAT SUPPLY AND DEMAND SEEMS TO GO OUT THE WINDOW WHEN IT COMES TO PAYING A WAGE TO ATTRACT APPLICANTS.

WAGES HAVE BEEN STAGNANT, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE AT THE LOWER END OF THE EMPLOYMENT SCALE HAVE NOT BEEN KEEPING PACE WITH INFLATION OR KEEPING PACE WITH THE COST OF LIVING AND EMPLOYERS HAVE NOT BEEN OFFERING MORE WAGES.

I MEAN WE ARE STARTING TO SEE... >> THAT'S NOT TRUE.

>> WE ARE STARTING TO SEE IT NOW.

A KEY REASON WHY PEOPLE HAVEN'T GONE BACK TO THE JOBS IS BECAUSE THEY DON'T PAY ENOUGH BECAUSE THEY HISTORICALLY HAVE NOT PAID ENOUGH AND IT'S TIME FOR THE BASIC WAGE TO START TO MOVE UP TO BRING PEOPLE BACK INTO THE WORKPLACE.

>> SOME STATES-- EXCUSE ME, SOME STATES, THE EXTENDED BENEFITS WERE CUT BY THE GOVERNORS JUST SAID OKAY WE ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE IT ANYMORE.

DO WE KNOW WHAT THE RESULT OF THAT IS?

HAS THAT HAD AN IMPACT?

>> SOUTH CAROLINA IS ONE OF THOSE STATES WHERE GOVERNOR McMASTER WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TO END THE EXTENDED UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS.

>> YOUR ADOPTED HOME.

>> I LIVE THERE NOW.

AND THERE IS AN ENORMOUS LABOR SHORTAGE IN CHARLESTON BECAUSE IT'S A HOSPITALITY-BASED CITY.

THE HOTELS NEED PEOPLE.

THE RESTAURANTS NEED PEOPLE AND IN RESPONSE TO WHAT YOU SAID, BOB, WAGES HAVE GONE UP DRAMATICALLY IN CHARLESTON AS THESE HOTELS AND RESTAURANTS ARE COMPETING.

>> I HOPE THAT'S TRUE.

>> AND ALSO GONE UP FROM HOW LOW OF A BASELINE?

>> THEY WERE LOW.

I AGREE THAT THEY'RE LOW BUT REMEMBER I SAID LABOR AT THE MOMENT IS ASCENDANT AND LABOR IS ASCENDANT, AT LEAST IN CITIES LIKE CHARLESTON, WHERE THEY NEED WORKERS VERY MUCH.

AND THEY ARE COMPETING.

AND SO WHEN THEY USED TO PAY 10, 11 AN HOUR FOR A SERVER, IT'S UP TO $14 AND 15, OFFERING CASH BONUSES TO SIGN UP.

OFFERING BONUSES IF THEY BRING PEOPLE IN TO SIGN UP.

IT IS A TIME TO GO BACK TO WORK, WHICH IS WHY JAMILA, I WOULD NOT ENCOURAGE PEOPLE NOT TO GO BACK TO WORK.

PEOPLE NEED TO WORK.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD SAY THOUGH IS THAT PEOPLE-- PEOPLE NEED TO WORK, PEOPLE WANT TO WORK.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT TO WORK.

THERE ARE NOT MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKE, I JUST WANT TO SIT AT HOME AND EAT BON-BONES RIGHT?

>> I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT'S RIGHT.

>> THERE IS NOT GREAT EVIDENCE THAT THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE RESISTANT TO WORK, RIGHT?

INSTEAD, WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT THERE ARE BARRIERS TO WORK.

SO WE HAVE TO ASK ABOUT WHAT THOSE BARRIERS ARE AND WHY, EVEN IN THE CONTEXT OF ASCENDANT LABOR, PEOPLE WOULD STILL BE STAYING HOME?

IS THE CHILD CARE?

ARE THERE HEALTH CHALLENGES?

THOSE BARRIERS NEED TO BE ADDRESSED.

>> ALL RIGHT.

WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE THAT THERE TO GET TO OUR AS AND FS AND BEGIN WITH LISA AND OUR F. >> F TO Dr. MICHELLE FISKAS FORMER TENNESSEE PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIAL WHO AFTER RELEASING A MEMO SUGGESTING MINORS COULD BE VACCINATED WITHOUT PARENTAL PERMISSION RECEIVED A DOG MUZZLE IN THE MAIL WHICH APPEARED TO BE A THREAT.

THE PROBLEM IS IT HAS BEEN DETERMINED THAT SHE SENT THE MUZZLE TO HERSELF.

>> BOB, YOUR F. >> AN F TO THOSE WHO WANT TO CHANGE THE NAME OF THE NEW TAPAN ZEE BRIDGE WHICH HAS BEEN NAMED AFTER MARIO CUOMO, THE LATE GOVERNOR FROM THE LATE 80s AWAY FROM THAT NAME BECAUSE HIS SON ANDREW CUOMO IS LEAVING OFFICE IN DISGRACE.

MARIO CUOMO'S NAME SHOULD NOT BE IMPLICATED IN SCANDALS OF THE SON.

THE BRIDGE SHOULD KEEP THE NAME MARIO CUOMO.

>> JAMILA, YOUR F. >> MY F IS REALLY A REFLECTION OF THE FACT THAT I WASN'T ON THE SHOW LAST WEEK WHEN I WOULD HAVE GIVEN THIS F SO I'M CARRYING THE F OVER, MY F GOES TO OUR FORMER GOVERNOR CUOMO.

IT'S JUST BEEN A LONG CHARADE OF A PROCESS.

AND IT ENDED OF COURSE IN THE RESIGNATION THAT MANY OF US EXPECTED AND I THINK THAT DESERVES SEVERAL WEEKS WORTH OF Fs.

>> WELL, WE ONLY GET ONE TODAY.

BUT LET'S GO TO THE As NOW.

>> DON'T I GET AN F. >> I'M SORRY, DAVID!

YES, YOU GET AN F. >> YOU GET THE F. >> GUILTY.

>> VERY QUICKLY.

HOW COULD I BE HERE AND NOT GIVE AN F TO THE STATE FAIR FOR NOT REQUIRING WORKERS TO BE VACCINATED OR TESTED.

ALL HAVE YOU TO DO IS SHOW UP AND WORK AND HOPE FOR THE BEST.

AND IF THAT IS STILL THE POLICY WHEN IT OPENS, I THINK THAT'S JUST INCREDIBLE.

>> OKAY, NOW, LISA.

>> MY A GOES TO PARIS, TEXAS PUBLIC SCHOOLS BOARD OF TRUSTEES WHICH FIGURED OUT THAT IT COULD USE ITS SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE STATUTORY AUTHORITY OVER THE SCHOOL DISTRICT'S DRESS CODE TO GET AROUND GOVERNOR ABBOTT'S BAN OF MASK MANDATES IN SCHOOLS.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE THESE KINDS OF WORK AROUNDS ARE NECESSARY, BUT KUDOS TO THE SCHOOL BOARD FOR FIGURING IT OUT.

>> OKAY, BOB SPITZER, YOUR A, PLEASE.

>> AN A TO THE ATLANTA FALCONS WHICH APPARENTLY IS A FOOTBALL TEAM, FOR BEING THE FIRST TEAM IN THE NFL TO HAVE 100% OF THEIR MEMBERS VACCINATED MEANING THEY CAN EAT TOGETHER, THEY CAN SCRIMMAGE TOGETHER.

THEY'RE PREPARED FOR THE SEASON.

THE OTHER TEAMS NEED TO FOLLOW SUIT.

>> AND JAMILA, YOUR A PLEASE.

>> MY A GOES TO ALL THE PARENTS AND CHILDREN GOING BACK TO SCHOOL, ELEMENTARY SCHOOL STUDENTS, HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS, COLLEGE STUDENTS THIS WEEK, AND OVER THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.

IT'S A VERY STRESSFUL CONTEXT TO BE ENTERING INTO IN-PERSON EDUCATIONAL INSTRUCTION AGAIN.

BUT PARENTS AND CHILDREN ARE DOING IT AND OFTEN THEY'RE DOING IT WITH GRACE AND PATIENCE AND I THINK THEY DESERVE AN A.

>> AND DAVID, I WON'T FORGET YOU THIS TIME.

YOUR A, PLEASE.

>> MY A GOES TO CHARLOTTE BENNETT, WHO IS ONE OF THE OF THE MOST CONVINCING WITNESSES AGAINST GOVERNOR CUOMO AND HIS SEXUAL HARASSMENT.

SHE CALLED OUT SPEAKER CARL HEASTIE IN THE ASSEMBLY FOR DROPPING THE IMPEACHMENT INVESTIGATION.

SHE SAID IT WAS THE COWARD'S WAY OUT, THAT THEY WERE NOT HOLDING CUOMO ACCOUNTABLE.

"AFTER SPENDING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN TAXPAYER MONEY AND ISSUING LOFTY STATEMENTS THAT IS HEASTIE, HE FAILED TO LIFT A FINNINGER TO MAKE CLEAR THAT NEW YORK REJECTS CUOMO'S BEHAVIOR."

GOOD FOR HER.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING.

FOR YOUR COMMENTS YOU CAN WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON THE SCREEN.

IF WOULD YOU LIKE TO WATCH THE SHOW AGAIN, YOU CAN DO SO ONLINE AT WCNY.ORG.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY.

FOR ALL OF US AT "IVORY TOWER."

HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.

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