- Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum," Vice President Kamala Harris visited Charlotte with a message about internet access and the fight for abortion rights, and a big picture conversation about the entire Kenly police force resigning.

Stay with us.

[upbeat music] ♪ Welcome to "Black Issues Forum," I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Vice President Kamala Harris visited Charlotte recently and sat down with local and state leaders to discuss a plan to make broadband more affordable and also talked about abortion rights.

Senator Natalie Murdock of Durham was one of the people at the table for the discussion and she joins us now.

Senator Murdock, thank you so much and welcome.

- Hi Deb, how are you today?

- I'm doing great.

I hope you are, as well.

First, tell us about the affordable connectivity program that the vice president talked about and what that's gonna mean for North Carolinians.

- Yes.

Something that politicians and elected officials have to do is actually remind folks of the hard work that they're doing.

And so, a big part of the bipartisan infrastructure bill was this program.

And so, they are crisscrossing the U.S. to let folks know some $65 billion was appropriated to make sure that we can really bridge the gap with that digital divide.

We just have far too many rural areas, and even in urban areas, folks that do not have high incomes are still having an issue with broadband connectivity.

And now it literally is a matter of life or death so this program will provide $30 to $75 per month to households that qualify.

and were really dependent on nonprofits and community centers such as that, to help us get out the word so that folks that are eligible know that benefit is here for us, for them to use.

- And will that be starting soon?

Is that available right now?

- Yes, it is available now.

It is administered by the FCC here in North Carolina.

The Division of Information Technology, they were also there along with their secretary.

They are doing a lot of work to get the word out as legislators.

We are letting our constituents know that this is a service to them because we know these internet bills are very high.

So the concept was it's difficult to get those bills down, but if we can at least say we'll provide a $30 to $75 credit per month to get those internet bills down so that you can get better connectivity and higher speeds.

One of the most bipartisan things we are doing is providing more funding at the state level to really get more fiber to folks so that we can get those higher speeds in rural areas along with federal programs, so you will start seeing a lot more work going in on the ground to really physically increase that connectivity, to deal with those last mile gaps and coverage of folks that are in really, really rural areas, particularly in the Eastern and Western parts of the state.

- So important.

And the vice president also wanted to talk about abortion rights and access to that.

We know that there are currently 12 states that banned this practice, not including North Carolina, or they imposed very tight restrictions.

What was the vice president's message to the group and for North Carolina?

- Yes, the vice president knew that North Carolina really is... We actually met with the vice president the same week that Georgia put their abortion ban in practice.

And so, here in North Carolina, that medical procedure does remain safe and legal, so want to begin with that and it will, at least through the end of the year.

And that is why the vice president was here.

She knows that North Carolina and Virginia, we already have records of women traveling from as far as Louisiana to come to North Carolina and Virginia for their services, since these bans are starting to be rolled out.

And so, she was really there to get the feedback of what we're already seeing on the ground.

Georgia alone, some 1500 cases will be transferred to North Carolina, so we are working really, really hard, especially those physicians, all of those facilities.

And we also touched on topics such as safety and security.

Those clinics are exposed and we will now, unfortunately, see protestors that will even come from other parts of the nation.

So, we also had a conversation with, at the state level, director for public safety to ensure that all of the facilities remain secure.

Governor Cooper was there.

He has signed an executive order, along with President Biden, so we got into a little bit more details of those executive orders that basically say we also don't want to criminalize individuals for coming to our state, as well.

So we had a very, very robust discussion and the vice president let us know that she's doing everything that she can and we let her know that we thank her and President Biden and the administration for their support with this.

Planned Parenthood was also there to share their firsthand observations regarding the influx of people that we have seen coming to North Carolina seeking this care and access.

Everyone can't afford to hop on a plane and come to North Carolina and Virginia, so access was a big topic as well.

- Well, we know that protests continue.

And in fact, our own representative, Alma Adams, was recently arrested at the Capitol in DC while protesting to advocate for abortion rights.

So can you share what's next strategically and policy wise for women and others who are seeking to continue to have this option?

We know that there are moves on both sides around abortion rights.

And in fact, there are over 150 some odd bills that have been introduced by the GOP that are ready to - Yes.

- restrict abortion rights nationwide if the Republicans lose in, or rather if they win in November.

So what's the policy strategy?

- Exactly.

Yes, right here in North Carolina the policy strategy is we've gotta win.

We've got to hold the House and the Senate.

We have two more years of not only Governor Cooper, but Attorney General Josh Stein.

So right here in North Carolina we have to keep those same numbers the same for the Supreme Court.

If the case ever goes to the state Supreme Court that needs to hold.

But more immediately at the federal level, U.S. Congress is working to codify a right to safe and legal abortion in addition to contraception.

That bill just made it out of the House last week.

So we're really concerned about them cracking down on contraception and birth control.

That is a basic right that every woman and birthing person should have access to.

So we've gotta get a handle on that and also have policies that make sure that you will not be criminalized for seeking abortion care.

- But as far as codifying it to protect the right nationwide, has that train left the station?

- It has not left the station.

It is still possible as long as the House and the Senate are still in session at the federal level.

It is possible they started with contraception because we know that's very vulnerable.

The Supreme Court has already signaled that.

Next we will work to codify abortion care at the federal level in Congress.

- Thank you, Senator Murdock.

If you'll stick around, wanna continue this discussion and bring a couple of other guests in.

The small town of Kenly, North Carolina garnered national attention recently when it was reported that an entire police force handed in their resignations with the complaint that the city manager had created a hostile working environment.

News agencies quickly picked up on the Facebook post by Kenly police chief, Josh Gibson, who wrote, quote, "I have put in my two weeks notice along with the whole police department.

After 21 years of service, the new manager has created an environment I do not feel we can perform our duties and services to the community."

He added, "I have loved this community.

It has become family and one of my greatest honors to serve."

Altogether seven people resigned, including Chief Gibson, four officers, and two town clerks.

The city manager at the center of the alleged conflict is Justine Jones, a woman who the city proudly announced on May 11th as its pick among 30 candidates in a national search.

Now, following a bonanza of media coverage, the Kenly town council has decided to launch an independent investigation.

Let's talk about it.

Senator Murdock, thank you for staying with us.

I wanna welcome to the discussion Professor La'Meshia Whittington and Dr. Tyechia Paul, assistant professor of management and director of the Broadwell Leadership Institute at Fayetteville State University.

So pleased to have all three of you with us.

But I wanna continue with you, Senator Murdock, the facts remain to be revealed from the investigation.

But as a woman, as a black woman, when you heard this story what questions came to mind for you?

- Yes, it's all very concerning and I've also studied public administration.

Many moons ago I wanted to be a city or a county manager.

So really, really struck a cord with me because it is one of the most difficult jobs that you can have, especially coming out of this pandemic.

And I think you said it perfectly, we need more facts, we need more information.

Things are really still hearsay at this point.

I would like to see more evidence of what this, quote unquote, hostile work environment was.

And this was a very short amount of time.

I mean, she was just hired.

So I just find it really difficult to believe that you could create such an environment in such a short amount of time, and also to provide additional context, a number of towns nationwide, particularly those under 5,000, are seeing a number of these resignations.

And I think it's more connected to the reckoning we've had as far as what it looks like to keep a community safe.

I think all police departments are facing more scrutiny, and I think that that probably had something to do with it as well.

So I think there's definitely more to the story.

But the town manager should hang in there.

Read that she has some 16 years of experience, so I think that all the facts should come out before we continue to really attack her.

This viral story even ended up in Time magazine, and so that is a lot of scrutiny for someone who's only been on the job for about two months.

- Dr. Paul, what were your thoughts?

But first, tell us a little bit about some of the spaces that you've worked in, your current work at FSU, and then certainly what came to mind when you heard the story.

- Sure.

Thanks so much, Ms. Noel.

In my 25 years of professional experience I actually spent, early on in my career, several years working in local government in my hometown of Plainfield, New Jersey, working in the mayor's office.

And it has a similar structure to Kenly in that there's a mayor but also a full-time city administrator.

I've also spent some years working in brokerage for the firms of T. Rowe Price and Wells Fargo advisors, back when they were Wacovia Securities, and in the legal industry with the firms of Miles and Stockbridge and DLA Piper where I trained attorneys and their staff members.

But I enjoyed teaching so much that after two degrees from Morgan State University, I went back for a doctorate from Hampton University in order to transition into academia.

So in academia I've worked for Buoy State University, Hampton University, Barton College, and currently at Fayetteville State University.

- So when you hear this story, you teach on human resources and management.

- When you hear the circumstances of a case like this, or a story like this, what comes to mind?

- So what comes to mind is, immediately, a sense of familiarity.

What Ms. Jones is experiencing in Kenly is not uncommon in the experience of Black female professionals.

I do, though, wonder why, in 2022, does this team of employees that have decided to exit their employment at Kenly, why do they feel that they can reject a duly selected government official, in 2022?

This is not 1898, and so that's a bit concerning but also reminiscent of a very difficult past that we faced in this country.

- Well, LA, what can you share with us?

Thank you so much for that, Dr. Paul.

But LA, what can you share with us about Johnston County, about Kenly, and the conditions in that community that speak to the presence of what was an all-white police force?

- Right, so the demography of Kenly is 36% Black, 36% white, 20% Hispanic.

So when we talk about an all-white or majority white police department that is actually not representative of the actual population that resides there.

The population is near 2000.

And so there have been local reports over the years, more recently in response to, of course, this news, and the mass exodus of seven folks, there's still three part-time officers there, and they were already understaffed by five officers.

Let's be very clear what we mean by mass exodus.

So we're not engorging the actual reality or the truth of what seems to be internal conflict based on, again, racism, racial discrepancies.

And so when we're talking about Kenly itself, some local residents have said that there has been a history of racial profiling, and we see that three years ago when the SBI actually investigated, launch investigation into Kenly for falsifying police reports.

So there's apparently a history of alleged falsification of police reporting and how they have engaged with the very community in which they are tasked to serve and protect.

And so if they have a history of falsifying reports, allegedly, then what is the distinction between an alleged false report of a toxic and hostile work environment now against, again, a new time manager that has only been in the job for a month, a month and a half?

And so what we're seeing is really, and I heard this both with the experts that I'm grateful to be joined on the call today, or in Zoom today, is the fact of the matter is, this seems to be a model by which is being perpetuated in other communities in North Carolina, across the nation, that is a model to remove Black leadership.

And what we're hearing is the term hostile work environment, is very early reminiscent of, "I fear for my life," or, "Stand your ground."

And so we're seeing that hostile work environment we saw at 2019 in Morrisville when the chief of police there was placed on administrative leave because, again, his colleagues said that there was a hostile work environment, and our chief Damon Williams has gone on to serve North Carolina Central University, which is where his tenure is now.

He served other communities since then, but it was still the exact same language and the exact same tactic that is being used against the town manager, Justine Jones, right now.

We have to be very cognizant and aware of what the tactic is and be very honest.

- And I think it's really interesting, thank you, LA, that there is a certain narrative that I'm seeing being driven, and it may be inadvertent.

But what we're looking at is this woman, and who's being investigated is this woman's behavior.

And yet, there were issues in the community of Kenly that perhaps she was brought into address, but it's as though she's on trial already.

We've already asked questions about her background.

What happened to her previous job?

But I haven't seen anything in the media about the previous behavior or performance of anyone on the police staff.

What are your thoughts about that?

I wholeheartedly agree.

I was honestly shocked at the reporting that I've seen.

I think the best framing I've seen has been from Time Magazine.

Why did it take a national outlet to report this with some level of accuracy?

And so La'Meshia's point, this is not a mass exodus, honestly.

I mean, you've lost a number of officers even here from Durham to Fayetteville to Raleigh, let me mention that, everyone has shortages.

You know, the last few summers were difficult.

So you're seeing a lot of law enforcement folks say, "I'm gonna do something else.

I'm not gonna stay in this profession."

So this is not something that's unique to Kenly, and that has not been reported in addition to the issues that they have had in years past.

And also the public nature of the resignation shows that this was political.

They wanted to achieve a goal.

They wanted to publicly embarrass this town manager.

That is clear.

- Yes, I agree with that.

- Piggyback off of that.

- Sorry, and that there's more information needed in terms of how, what examples and evidence do they have of a hostile work environment?

Because there are some criteria, right?

So a hostile work environment is where there's discrimination or harassment to a degree that it changes the terms and conditions of somebody's employment, in terms of wages, promotion, demotion, access to benefits, et cetera, and that it affects negatively members of a protected group.

It can include intimidation, offensive behavior, and actual physical or mental abuse or persistent microaggressions, right?

So in the information, and even in the resignation letter and social media posts of some of the exiting employees, they've not mentioned those specifics, but I did also notice a clause in the resignation letter of the police chief, in that he said that he would consider retracting his resignation if they removed Ms. Jones from her position.

So really it's almost an ultimatum.

It's like a us or her sort of situation.

- Yes.

- Wow, yeah.

You're spot on with that.

And Dr. Paul, you know, when we take a look at this broadly, what potential landmines do you see given the dynamics of having a young woman, a young Black woman, newly in a position of authority with an all-white male team, and it can be a police force, it can be a school, a public education system, it could be a corporate environment.

What can you share with young women who might find themselves in this situation or with anyone who is creating diversity, trying to implement DEI in their organization, and has this potential balance introduced to their organization?

- How do they need to be dealing with this?

- Well, the landlines that I foresee, some of them are already occurring in terms of work stoppage, lack of support from subordinates as well as from leadership.

I also see some landmines including damage to, potentially damage to Ms. Jones' professional career.

Because really, even in terms of how the town council is exploring this, they're investigating Ms. Jones who's been on the job for less than a quarter, less than a full performance year rather than exploring what's going on in the police department.

Is this mass departure indicative of any poor departmental operations that they're now scared would be exposed?

Those are some of the questions that came to mind to me, but also I think that some of the landmines we can kind of change our framing on how we consider those, right?

Because this mass departure could be an opportunity.

So Ms. Jones provided that she keeps her role, now has an opportunity to build the workforce that the Town of Kenly needs and deserves.

She doesn't have to do the dirty work of cleaning house.

They've kind of already done it for her.

- A great point.

- And so, one of the main ways to positively change in organization's culture is to hire in the talent, the traits, the skills, and the values and the new employees, those values that you seek to establish within the organization.

- Absolutely.

And LA, I imagine, you've worked in a variety of spaces as well.

What would you say about dealing with the potential microaggressions and the existing microaggressions, and what are some of the microaggressions?

- Absolutely.

I just wanna plus one everything that Dr. Paul really just said and laid the foundation of what I'm about to just adjoin to.

And so when we talk about microaggressions and the language they're in, we also have to talk about the hiring and firing practices.

We saw in the wake of the uprisings of 2020, the protests against across the murders of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor that there was a surge of organizations, police departments that were responding to the defund, the police, right outcry that came from the community.

And some of that response was, well, let's just hire representation and actually hire black professionals and experts to be in our departments.

Okay, well, that's a bandaid to diverse systemic problem.

And what that means is that when you're looking at microaggressions, you also have to look at the fact why was there already a culture by which black professionals who are not already hired or dutifully employed.

Racism isn't just an organic environment by which it breeds an air or through the soil, it's actually perpetuated as an activation by people.

People is what perpetuates racism.

And it's the professionals that reside already from the departments that made the decision not to hire black professionals before the uprisings, not to hire black experts and to actually do nationwide searches for qualified candidates prior to being urged to that direction by the general public.

So if we're not really looking at the depth of the department to say, who needs to be hired and who needs to be fired that perpetuated those systemic inequities and hiring, then when you hire that black profession, that expert, you're bringing them into an already hostile, toxic work environment by which they are given the burden of fixing.

And that's not within their jurisdiction to fix legacy and generational wealth or racism, excuse me.

- Wow, that's a great point as well.

Senator Murdock, you certainly, I would imagine, have had to encounter this in some capacities.

Here, you are working in politics now, and you, you have the, - [Natalie] Yes.

- you are surrounded by individuals who don't look like you all day long, but you're getting along and you're navigating those waters.

What would your advice be to anyone who is in your position to continue to do your job and build networks and not only business relationships but friendships where you work?

- It does happen a lot.

And I think there are a number of things you can do.

You definitely need to have allies.

This is something that you cannot do alone.

I've worked for a number of local governments across the state of North Carolina, and typically the town manager, the city manager, the city attorney, those were always folks that I reached out to early and often, just to ensure that I would have allies that were those top decision makers but as an elected official, pretty much the same kind of process is what I utilize daily of treating staff well and documenting things.

If you are aware of something, you do have to have a record of it.

As we've mentioned today, we haven't seen any record of a hostile work environment that they speak of.

And so in the event that there is an incident, you need to have a clear record of how you recall that situation to have unfolded so that if it does unfortunately escalate into something legal, you do have those records.

And just really, really leading with integrity, leading with class, because unfortunately as a black woman, you are more likely to be attacked.

And so you really have to have all of your ducks in a row and to not overtly give someone a reason to complain about your leadership or your management style.

But unfortunately it is a sign of the times.

And I think the doctor said it perfectly of, they can utilize this as an opportunity to say let's build the town that we want, the staffing that we want that reflects the culture and values and hiring really, really key people that will also support you and have your back is another strategy that is also very helpful.

- Thank you.

Dr. Paul, I'm gonna give you what might be the last word in terms of advice to young people who are entering the workforce, they might find themselves in this position.

- Advice that I would give to young people is as in part similar to what we've been taught growing up.

We have to be twice as good to be seen as equal, but even sometimes, that won't prevent the microaggressions from occurring.

So what I would say is as Senator Murdock mentioned, document when they occur.

Be prepared to advocate for one's self and to establish relationships with one's allies.

And also to know what's out there for you, know what you're up against.

We operate in a professional environment where the wage gap still persists, where black women are historically undervalued, undercompensated despite being the most educated segment of the US population with literally 10% of black women in the US, pursuing college degrees at the undergraduate and graduate level right now, Dr. Tyechia Paul, thank you so much for that advice La'Meshia Whittington, thank you and Senator Natalie Murdock.

We appreciate all three of you for being here today.

Thanks so much.

-Thank you -It's a pleasure - I wanna thank all of our guests for joining us today.

And we invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum, or listen at any time on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or Google Podcasts.

For Black Issues Forum, I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Thanks for watching.

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