(upbeat music) - [Announcer] This is a production of PBS Charlotte (lively music) - This week, on Un-Spun after the debate, everybody's still talking about Harris and Trump facing off in Philadelphia, but will it make a difference on election day?

We'll look at what happened on stage and what happens next with veteran political writer Mark Halperin plus the top five things that campaigns do after a debate.

Un-Spun is next on PBS Charlotte.

(upbeat music) In today's America, welcome to the Spin Game.

Believe me, I know.

I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the Spin Game.

I was played by the Spin Game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world realm, here on Un-Spun.

(upbeat music) Good evening, I'm Pat McCrory, and welcome to Un-Spun, the show that tells you what politicians are thinking, but not saying.

Well, they started by actually shaking hands before shaking up the campaign for president.

- [David] So let's now welcome the candidates to the stage, Vice President Kamala Harris and President Donald Trump.

- Kamala Harris, let's have a good debate.

- Let's just see, have fun.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- [David] Welcome to you both, it's wonderful to have you.

It's an honor to have you both here tonight.

- This was the first time that the Vice president and the former president ever met face-to-face, and maybe the last time.

But if there's a next time, what did 67 million of us learn by watching the first debate?

Anything new?

- When it comes to the economy, do you believe Americans are better off than they were four years ago?

- So I was raised as a middle class kid.

I believe in the ambition, the aspirations, the dreams of the American people.

- What Trump supporters saw was Vice President Harris often changing the subject instead of answering the tough questions about the last four years.

And what Harris supporters saw was former President Trump not looking very presidential, not when he was focusing on the personal stuff and the minor details of major issues like immigration.

- They're eating the dogs, the people that came in, they're eating the cats, they're eating, they're eating the pets of the people that live there.

And this is what's happening in our country and it's a shame.

- The real shame is that we're this close to election day with a huge audience watching, and we still can't get either candidate to be specific about fixing what's wrong with our country.

So here's my message to both candidates.

We're done with you ducking and dodging questions.

Forget the fake fear mongering and please no more name calling.

When tune into a debate, we're not looking for a political food fight, we're looking for answers.

Joining us now with more on the debate and what happens next is veteran political writer Mark Halperin.

He's a bestselling author, a former political analyst at ABC and MSNBC.

And now Mark is also the host of 2Way, talking live online twice a day with newsmakers and viewers on all sides of the political spectrum.

Mark, it's great to have you with us on Un-Spun, 2Way this week, you actually did an after debate focus group with undecided voters.

I watched it, it was fascinating.

What was your conclusion about how undecided voters looked at the debate and did it make any difference to undecided voters?

- Yeah, you know, governor, we did something I don't think anybody else has done.

We convened undecided voters from North Carolina and the other six battleground states.

So everybody who participated was a battleground state voter who hasn't yet decided who to vote for.

They've got a written, they had a record in the past, some voted in the past for Democrats, some Republicans, so a mixed group.

And I think my main takeaway, the through line for it all, is that the reason they're not sold is because they have doubts about both candidates and the reason that it's interesting to me is their doubts are different.

The doubts about Kamala Harris are about policy.

They're about whether or not they understand what she's for, suspicions that she might be more liberal than they think the country's president should be.

Real doubts about policy.

For Trump, it's a different P word, it's personality.

They didn't bring up his position on abortion or on terrorists.

Their concern was that he used a bunch of adjectives, I won't repeat all of them here, but they were not caught.

And what fascinating to me is that if you look at their performance in the debate, they both played to type, they didn't do what these voters wanted them to do, which is to say Trump talked about cats and dogs.

And Harris was not specific about policy.

And so I think going forward, if they wanna get the votes of those eight, and I have reason to believe those eight are representative of other undecided voters in the battleground states.

Trump's gonna have to find a way to diminish concerns about his personality.

She's gonna have to be more specific about what policies she actually believes in.

- Another issue that's come up during 2Way is media bias.

In fact, you talked about this this week.

Was there media bias and is there always media bias when it comes to debates and other political dialogue?

You and I have both been on NBC, ABC, Fox, CNN and so forth.

Is there media bias?

- I've been outspoken throughout my career and I've worked in some of America's top newsrooms that there is media bias.

The bias isn't always left and right.

That's I think the most pernicious one, the favoring of Democrats over Republicans.

But there's elite bias, there's bias for controversy, there's bias, unfortunately against substance a lot of the time.

But that bias against Republicans has been supercharged in the Trump era.

Now, in 2016, I would argue Donald Trump got more favorable coverage than Hillary Clinton did.

And that was part of why he was able to win.

But right now, the bias is worse than I've ever seen.

And whatever motivated the debate moderators in that debate to do what they did, which is to say to go hard on Donald Trump and not hard at all, and Kamala Harris, whatever motivated them and left a really bad taste in the mounds of conservatives and some liberals who thought the treatment was unfair.

A lot of attention on the question of fact checking that bothered me some.

What bothered me more was the failure to follow up with her on some pretty simple questions.

You can't just ask a question and not follow up if the person doesn't answer.

If that's how you're gonna moderate a debate, you might as well just hand them a slip of paper and say, here are the questions, the camera's on, I'll see you in 90 minutes.

- So after the debate's been over, what do you think the campaigns and the candidates are thinking at this point in time, but not telling us?

- Well, I think one thing they're thinking is that this may not be close.

And I think both sides have reason to think that.

And I know that there are people close to both candidates who do think that.

Not that it definitely will be a blow out, but the conventional wisdom to inspire donors and supporters and volunteers is to say, oh, this is gonna be razor thin and margin, it could go either way.

That's true and it could be close, but as I said, I think both campaigns know, and I think in both camps there are people who feel this, that if things break right, you could see even by close margins, five, six or seven of the battleground states all going in one direction.

And obviously if that happens, if one candidate won six or seven of the battlegrounds, it would be an electoral college blowout.

- So if now since the debate we've had another assassination attempt, do you think that will have an impact on the election?

Will it make the debate forgetful?

And now people are more worried about conflict and violence?

- I've never seen anything, and I'm not sure how much this is anti-Trump bias versus just the superficial nature of our world these days.

I've never seen anything like how quickly the media, and at least some of the public moved on from the extraordinary second assassination attempt, apparent assassination attempt against President Trump.

It was just a couple days ago, and yet people are already talking about other things.

I don't get the sense I saw this in the focus group, but from other things I've seen, I don't get the sense that it's gonna move a lot of votes directly.

But I do think it'll do two things.

One, it'll allow Donald Trump to raise money, which is important for his campaign because they're behind in money and they're behind now by a factor large enough to make a real difference.

He doesn't need more money to win, but he needs enough.

And the other is, I think it will encourage Republicans, as you know, well governor politics is about enthusiasm.

The Democrats have issues like abortion rights that have really energized their base.

I think you're gonna see Donald Trump and his supporters talk about immigration, inflation, Biden Harris record for sure, but nothing's more emotional.

And you saw this at the convention of Milwaukee after the first assassination attempt.

Nothing's more emotional now for Republicans and Trump supporters than to talk about attempts to kill Donald Trump.

And I think you'll see that play a role, not necessarily in in moving the undecideds, but in energizing those who are inclined to support Donald Trump.

- So about two months ago, on 2Way, I predicted that North Carolina would be seriously in play.

In fact could be the swing state.

At that time people weren't sure.

I think that prediction might be true at this point in time.

What do you think?

- Well, look, I know from people close to Vice President Harris that she's very bullish on North Carolina and maybe after the three Great Lake states, the three Rust Belt states, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, of the seven, some say that she and her campaign are most bullish on North Carolina.

And if they do lose Pennsylvania, for instance, winning North Carolina and one other will be vital if she's gonna have a path to victory.

So I don't have any doubt that all seven will be contested because both campaigns have enough to do that.

I don't think you'll see any of the seven drop off the list the way we've seen in past cycles where by October, early mid-October campaign says, you know what, we're not gonna win that state, so let's move our resources elsewhere.

You might be right, but I also wouldn't be surprised, as I said in general earlier our conversation, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up not being particularly close, even though right now it certainly is.

- All right, yes, no question, as you often say on 2Way, yes, no.

Will we know the results of this election on election night?

- I would say I'm different than most of our colleagues.

I think, yes, not a sure thing, but I think the base cases we'll know.

- Mark Halperin, it's great to talk to you again and thanks for being on Un-Spun.

- Governor, great to see you, thank you.

- Next up, PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier takes Un-Spun on the street to last week's Harris campaign stop right here in Charlotte.

For more on the debate and what voters want after the debate.

- Yeah, it's the debate that everybody's still talking about.

So no surprise really that here at Kamalapalooza outside the Colosseum that these Harris supporters wanna talk about it too.

(lively trumpet music) - Donald Trump and I had our first debate.

(audience cheering) - I thought she killed it.

I thought she destroyed him and I loved every second of it.

- [Jeff] Did you watch every second of it?

- I did.

- I mean, she just was professional, smart as a whip, and he was left flat.

- Even if I wasn't a fan of hers, she did a spectacular job sticking to the subject.

She gave me a plan.

- But I think we really wanna see, okay, so how is this gonna happen?

How are you gonna encourage Congress?

How is this gonna come to be?

(lively trumpet music) - And I believe we owe it to the voters to have another debate.

(audience cheering) - Do you think the debate will make a difference come election day with voters?

- Maybe with some voters who were undecided, but I think that the Trump voter is a Trump voter and I don't know that we can do anything to change their minds.

- It went pretty bad for him.

Kamala did amazing, (indistinct).

- Obviously energized.

Those of us who already support her, but I do think some of it did resonate with people who may be on the fence.

(lively trumpet music) - And last question there's been criticism of the Vice President for not doing more interviews, not taking more questions.

As a supporter, should she do more of that?

- Yeah, I definitely think that she should like get out there more and take some more unscripted answer or questions so people can hear more about what she thinks.

- Why do you think she's not doing more interviews?

- I don't know, I really don't.

I mean, 'cause I think, I don't know.

I don't know, I don't know.

(lively trumpet music) - Yeah, that might be the biggest surprise that despite the Vice President's reluctance up till now to do unscripted interviews, that this mostly Democratic crowd actually wants to hear more, especially after the debate.

Pat.

- That's a great job, Jeff.

So what do you think about the issue?

Email us your comments on the Trump Harris Debate to unspun@wtvi.org.

Or even better, send us a video and we might use it on the air.

(upbeat music) Tonight on our Un-Spun Countdown, we've got the top five things political campaigns do after a debate.

Let's start out with number five.

Number five, decide if another debate is beneficial.

Well, it looks like this decision's already been made.

The Harris campaign says they want another debate.

The Trump campaign says, no moss, we don't want another debate.

It's interesting why?

And they're putting out propaganda on their rationale.

And it's a message as to why you do or do not want a debate.

Frankly, both campaigns are gonna rely on political commercials that you'll see show after show after show from here until election day.

Number four, send good clips of debates to social media.

Yeah, this is part of the game right now.

There's a certain number of people that watch the debate, but right now, more people are actually watching social media.

So each campaign will send 20, 30 second clips of the parts of the debate that they like or they would like you to see the other candidate messing up on.

This is where the real race begins, is after the debate.

Number three, flood media with political surrogates.

It's real interesting right now that on Sunday talk shows both that last week and now most likely coming up this Sunday, is neither Trump or Harris will be on Meet the Press or This Week or Fox.

They'll have surrogates speaking for them.

Very interesting dynamics.

They feel more comfortable that they have other people speaking for them as opposed to the candidates themselves answering the tough questions.

Number two, accuse opponent of lies and deception.

This is a major battle right now because Trump has always been accused lately of saying lies.

Well now the Trump campaign is pushing back and saying, wait a minute, Harris also lied during the debate.

So it's a fight on who lied the most.

It's a propaganda campaign trying to influence your vote, especially the undecided votes at this point in time.

And number one, number one, this is my favorite.

Say you won the debate.

This is what you do after every debate.

You and your surrogates say, oh, Trump won the debate, Harris won the debate.

The heck with all the other data, the heck with the pundits, just say you won the debate.

That's politics.

(upbeat music) PBS Charlotte's very popular.

Jeff Sonier joins me now for Un-Spun One-on-One.

- You're not helping your credibility when you say that.

I'm just saying.

- Well, I just wish the two presidential candidates would do more one-on-one interviews and really be forced to answer the questions.

But I'm willing to answer your questions 'cause I don't have them.

- Yep, well they come from the headlines, they come from this week's show.

I ask and you answer me, don't see ahead of time.

And that's why we call it one-on-one.

Let's go first to this poll from the Carolina Journal that came out just this week after the debate.

These are likely voters in North Carolina.

Trump down a little bit from his numbers in August.

Harris up a little bit from her numbers in August.

That's after the debate.

But if you look a little bit deeper, the North Carolina voters that are definitely Trump widely larger than the North Carolina voters that are definitely Harris, okay?

The polls are gonna spin, or the campaigns are gonna spin the polls one way or the other.

But when they're looking at these numbers behind the scenes, what do they think?

- They don't see 50%.

- Hmm.

Yeah, that's what, they're a long way from 50%.

- They don't see 50%, and you don't know also where the third party candidates might be there and who the third party candidates are stealing from.

So they're at least looking for 48 to 49%.

And now they're really looking at the tabs.

You have the general numbers that the media shows the public, but it's the tabs that make a difference.

Who are the undecided voters?

Are they young people?

Are they voters?

Are they old people?

Are they black or white, educated, blue collar, white collar?

They're looking at the tabs and the details because that's who they're gonna target their campaign ads and mailings and digital campaign too, and which will be bombarded during the next several months.

- Behind the scenes, are they afraid of what they're seeing in these poll numbers right now?

- Absolutely, first of all, all politicians are paranoid and so are their campaign managers because their whole reputations out there.

It's so much out of their control.

Yeah, they're afraid and they don't trust anything including these numbers.

- I wanna take another look at another clip, this particular clip from Kamala Harris during the debate.

Then I'm gonna ask you a question.

Let's look at the clip.

- Knowing not everybody got handed $400 million on a silver platter and then filed bankruptcy six times.

And what you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom.

Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people.

So let's be clear about that.

And clearly he is having a very difficult time processing that.

- That's three different examples of her making it personal.

It sounds like, speaking off the cuff.

How much of this is rehearsed or researched before it actually gets said on a debate like this?

- Oh, that was all set up, rehearsed for three days.

The campaign consultant said when they bring up certain issues, re-pivot to something else and throw her right.

And she was throwing her right, and the question is, would your opponent this time Donald Trump, would he duck or would he try to swing back?

He tried to swing back instead of duck it, and repaving back to the question that was asked.

That's a huge mistake that Trump made during that debate.

And I've been there, I've been there.

Sometimes you get distracted by something that really feels personal, like bringing up your dad, that's personal.

And all of a sudden your mind scrambled going, I gotta respond to that, and that means it worked.

Now did that sway undecided voters will be another thing.

And we're gonna find out probably on election day.

- One more clip I wanna take a look at.

This time it's former President Trump talking.

- So she just started by saying, she's gonna do this, she's gonna do that, she's gonna do all these wonderful things.

Why hasn't she done it?

She's been there for three and a half years.

They've had three and a half years to fix the border, they've had three and a half years to create jobs and all the things we talked about.

Why hasn't she done it?

- So that was his closing statement.

Very focused, but a lot more focused than the entire debate.

Why the change from the unfocused Trump early in the debate to the very focused Trump at the debate?

- Well, he probably prepared for the first question and the close.

Everything in between, he got distracted by Kamala Harris' strategy, her consultant strategy to get him off the subjects at hand and irritate him.

And he can be irritated, believe me, I know him.

He'd get irritated very quickly.

And so he did get back on because the consultants, whatever you say at the end of the debate, say, why didn't you do this before?

He did it At the end of the debate, the dilemma is a large amount of the audience had already made a decision about the debate or they'd already changed the channel.

- So will there be another debate?

Harris wants one, Trump doesn't.

- No, it's not gonna happen.

And I'm not even sure Harris wants one, but they want to give the impression they want one, but if they won another one, they're probably gonna have disagreements on who does it anyway because of the controversy with ABC, But I think from a political standpoint, the advisors are going, hey, we got the upper hand on the Democratic side.

'cause we're saying we want another debate.

Trump is going, we're moving on.

- There's another way to reach voters besides debates, I guess both candidates are gauging which one of those other ways is more effective than the debate at this point.

- Well, last month I told you millions of dollars are coming in.

There is not gonna be a shortage of money.

In fact, if anything, we're gonna be so sick of TV ads, one after another.

And now the statewide ads are starting to come through, not just for governor, but Attorney General and other lower offices.

So every ad will be just bombarding us and we won't know the difference between any of the ads after a while.

The question is which ones are getting to the undecided voters and which ones are maybe either turning off voters from voting at all, or turning on voters I better get out and vote and no one will know that until after election day.

- Thanks governor, and that's this week's on One-on-One.

(upbeat music) - You know, I've done my share of debates over the years as a city council member, a mayor, a governor, and a Senate candidate.

And no matter what office you're running for, today's political debates aren't really debates at all.

They're more like those fake reality TV shows.

The moderators from the media asking their loaded or leading questions, the candidates memorizing their campaign slogans and sound bites, and the consultants coming up with attack lines against your opponent.

Nobody talks about specific solutions to today's problems.

That's not part of the script, it's just heroes versus villains, champs versus chumps, with the know-it-all pundits and fact checkers deciding for us who the winner was.

How about this instead, Harris VS Trump for three hours, each candidate with 90 minutes to lay out their detailed plans for fighting inflation or fixing immigration, or only two or three major issues for each debate with no interruptions and no moderators.

In today's politics, it sounds crazy, right?

Well, what I just described are the seven Lincoln Douglas debates from 166 years ago, and if it was good enough for Honest Abe, why is it good enough for today's debates?

That's the reality as I see it.

I hope you'll come back next week as we explore the politics of voting.

Ballots by mail, early voting, voter IDs, they're not just affecting when we vote, they're also affecting how we vote and they're changing how candidates campaign.

That's on our next Un-Spun, where we'll tell you what politicians are thinking but not saying.

Goodnight folks.

(upbeat music) (lively music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.

(lively music)