(MUSIC PLAYING) HELLO, MY NAME IS ELLE NAEF, ROCKY MOUNTAIN PBS MULTIMEDIA PRODUCER.

TONIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO CHECK IN ON AN UPCOMING DOCUMENTARY CALLED THE HOLLY WITH JULIAN RUBINSTEIN AND TERRANCE ROBERTS.

TERRANCE ROBERTS IS A DENVER NATIVE WHO HAS WORKED WITH THOUSANDS OF YOUTH, ORGANIZING SEVERAL COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENTAL PROJECTS THROUGH AN AWARD-WINNING AFTER SCHOOL AND MENTORSHIP PROGRAM.

TERRANCE IS CURRENTLY A RESIDENTIAL COMMERCIAL PROPERTY AND GSA BUILDING INSPECTOR AND RECENTLY COMPLETED A RUN IN THE MAYORAL ELECTION.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE, TERRANCE.

- THANKS FOR HAVING ME I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

- JULIAN RUBINSTEIN IS AN AWARD WINNING JOURNALIST AND DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER.

HIS MOST RECENT BOOK, THE HOLLY, FIVE BULLETS ONE GUN, AND THE STRUGGLE TO SAVE AN AMERICAN NEIGHBORHOOD, WAS THE WINNER OF THE 2022 COLORADO BOOK AWARD AND THE 2022 HIGH PLAINS BOOK AWARD.

HE GREW UP IN DENVER AND IS CURRENTLY VISITING FILMMAKER AT WESTERN COLORADO UNIVERSITY.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

- THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

LET'S GET STARTED WITH THE BOOK TO THE DOCUMENTARY PROCESS.

CAN YOU TELL ME A BIT ABOUT HOW YOU TWO MET AND HOW IT TURNED FROM A BOOK INTO A DOCUMENTARY?

- SURE.

WELL, SO I, YOU KNOW, I GREW UP IN DENVER.

I WAS LIVING IN NEW YORK CITY AT THE TIME, AND I WAS ALWAYS WANTING TO DO A STORY IN THE TOWN I GREW UP IN BUT HADN'T FOUND ONE.

AND ONE DAY I READ THIS STORY THAT WAS VERY INTRIGUING TO ME AND IT WAS ABOUT A SHOOTING INVOLVING TERRANCE THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE HOLLY AND I DECIDED TO FLY HOME AND START LOOKING INTO IT.

AND THE FIRST THING I DID DO WAS GET ULTIMATELY WRITE AND GET A BOOK CONTRACT FOR THIS BOOK AND THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, I KNEW GOING TO BE A LOT OF WORK AND I STARTED WORKING ON IT AND CAME HOME, YOU KNOW, REALLY MOVED HOME TO DO IT AND IT WAS NOT LONG AFTER THAT.

THAT I STARTED TO REALIZE THAT THE STORY ABOUT THIS SHOOTING THAT HAD ALREADY HAPPENED AND ABOUT THIS NEIGHBORHOOD WAS VERY MUCH ALIVE AND WAS VERY MUCH KIND OF LIKE RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME THAT I HAD ACCESS TO IT.

AND I DECIDED THAT I WANTED TO START FILMING.

- GREAT.

AND THEN HOW DID YOU TWO BUILD TRUST ALONG THIS PROCESS, HAVING NOT KNOWN EACH OTHER IN THE FIRST PLACE AND WITH IT BEING SUCH A HEAVY ISSUE?

- ME, I FELT LIKE I HAD NOTHING TO LOSE.

I KNEW I WAS ATTACKED.

I KNEW I WAS DOING THE WORK THAT I TOLD THE COMMUNITY I WAS GONNA DO, SO IT WASN'T HARD FOR ME TO TRUST JULIAN BECAUSE I DIDN'T SEE HIM WORKING FOR LOCAL OUTLETS THAT MAYBE HAD A TIE IN TO LOCAL POLITICS.

- YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I STRUGGLED WITH AND DISCUSSED AND THOUGHT ABOUT WITH SOME OF MY TEAM WAS, YOU KNOW, WHETHER OR NOT TERRANCE SHOULD BE LIKE ACTUALLY PART OF THE PRODUCING TEAM AND ALL THAT.

AND I REMEMBER SAYING TO HIM THAT I REALLY FELT IN THIS STORY THAT IT WAS ACTUALLY IMPORTANT FOR IT TO BE AN IMPARTIAL SORT OF INVESTIGATIVE PIECE, AND I DID END UP INVESTIGATING NOT ONLY EVERYONE, BUT TERRANCE MORE THAN ANYONE.

AND I REMEMBER SAYING TO HIM AT SOME POINT, BECAUSE HE WOULD SAY TO ME, WELL, HE HAS NOTHING TO HIDE.

AND I SAID, WELL, GOOD.

WELL, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO BE GLAD THAT WE KIND OF MAINTAIN SOME IMPARTIALITY BECAUSE IF NOT, I DIDN'T WANT PEOPLE TO WATCH IT AND BE LIKE, WELL, GREAT, WHAT'S THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY?

I WANTED TO DO MY DUE DILIGENCE AS A JOURNALIST AND SHOW THE WHOLE STORY AND FIND OUT WHAT I FOUND.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS GOING TO FIND.

I KNEW WHAT TERRANCE WAS TELLING ME, BUT I DIDN'T JUST OF COURSE, GO JUST ON THAT ALONE, I WAS DIGGING INTO A LOT OF THINGS.

- AND THEN WHAT MESSAGE DID YOU HOPE THAT PEOPLE RECEIVED HEARING THIS STORY, TERRANCE?

- THE MESSAGE I EVENTUALLY WANTED TO GET OUT WAS FOR ONE, I WAS-- I'M INNOCENT, YOU KNOW, I REALLY DEFENDED MYSELF.

AND I DIDN'T EVEN WANT THE WORST FOR THAT YOUNG MAN.

AND ALSO, LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS IN COMMUNITIES LIKE DENVER IN THE FIVE POINTS.

DENVER IS THE SECOND MOST GENTRIFIED CITY IN THE UNITED STATES, BEHIND SAN FRANCISCO, THAT GOT A TRILLION DOLLAR TECH BOOM.

WHO'S GENTRIFIED?

AFRICAN AMERICANS.

YOU DON'T SEE BLACK PEOPLE IN DENVER ANYWHERE ANYMORE.

WE HAVE SOME OF THE MOST HISTORIC AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITIES IN ALL OF THE NATION AND THAT'S MY MAIN ISSUE, NOT ISSUE, I'M NOT GOING TO SAY ISSUE-- MESSAGE.

I DON'T WANT TO HARP ON GANG VIOLENCE AND NEGATIVITY BUT KIDS GET KILLED IN DENVER JUST LIKE IN LA.

WE'RE NOT AS BIG AS LA, BUT FOR PER CAPITA, IT HURTS OUR FAMILIES.

WOMEN GET HURT IN THE METRO AREA, GET KILLED.

THIS IS NOT JUST THE SKI CAPITAL OF THE UNITED STATES.

THIS IS A REAL CITY WITH REAL POVERTY, REAL PEOPLE, REAL MIGRANTS, REAL IMMIGRANTS, TWO SEPARATE THINGS AND REAL HISTORICAL COMMUNITIES OF PEOPLE OF COLOR AND POOR WHITE PEOPLE TOO IT'S WE'RE A METROPOLIS THAT NEEDS SUPPORT IN THOSE AVENUES, AND THAT STORY IS NOT COMING OUT ABOUT DENVER, AND I THINK THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO HEAR AND KNOW.

- AND WHAT ABOUT YOU, JULIAN?

- FOR ME, I MEAN WHEN I STARTED WITHOUT A DOUBT AND I WANT TO SORT OF MAKE CLEAR HOW I APPROACH IT, BECAUSE I APPROACHED IT JUST TRYING TO GET TO THE TRUTH ORIGINALLY I DIDN'T KNOW...

I KNEW THE STORY CONTAINED SO MANY ISSUES AND I WANTED TO ILLUMINATE WHAT I COULD.

I NEVER WANTED TO.

..

I'M GOING TO DO A MOVIE THAT'S GOING TO PROVE LIKE STRUCTURAL RACISM OR THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER.

BUT IN THE END, WOW.

YOU KNOW, THERE WERE SOME PRETTY REVEALING THINGS.

INCLUDING ACTUALLY, OF COURSE, THAT I BELIEVE THAT AMONG OTHER MANY OTHER THINGS, IT'S A STORY THAT SHOWS HOW PROBLEMATIC STRUCTURAL RACISM IS, HOW YOU CAN HAVE A NETWORK OF POWERFUL INTERESTS AND FORCES IN A CITY, NOT JUST FEDERALLY PEOPLE THINK OF STRUCTURAL THINGS AS LIKE, NATIONAL, BUT HERE IN, IN A CITY LIKE THIS YOU HAVE NETWORKED FORCES OF PEOPLE AND ENTITIES THAT NOT ONLY CAN REALLY CONTROL WHAT'S HAPPENING, INCLUDING MONEY, DEVELOPMENT, LAW ENFORCEMENT EFFORTS, BUT THEY'RE ALSO ULTIMATELY THERE'S OF COURSE SOME OF THAT ECHO CHAMBER EFFECT AND EVEN ENTITIES LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, NONPROFITS OR FOUNDATIONS THAT, OF COURSE, WANT TO DO GOOD WORK, WANT TO BE MAYBE SUPPORTING SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT TERRANCE IS TALKING ABOUT.

ULTIMATELY, MAYBE FALL SHORT BECAUSE THEY'RE IN LINE AND IN GROUPS OF PEOPLE THAT ARE KIND OF NOT SEEING WHAT THEY COULD OR SHOULD SEE.

AND THE OTHER THING THAT YOU KNOW, OF COURSE THEY DID INCLUDE IN THE FILM AND SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY HARD FOR ME TO SORT OF LIKE ACCEPT AND DEAL WITH, WHICH WAS SOME REAL FAILURES IN JOURNALISM IN TERMS OF THE COVERAGE BOTH OF THE CASE AND OF THE COMMUNITY OVER THE YEARS.

- AND THEN YOU BROUGHT UP GENTRIFICATION.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN MORE THE TIES TO GENTRIFICATION AND GANG VIOLENCE?

- WELL, SO WHEN YOU GET NEIGHBORHOODS LIKE THE FIVE POINTS THAT REALLY WEREN'T GETTING SOME OF THE SMALL BUSINESS LOANS, GRANTS THAT DEAL WITH REDLINING OR NORTHEAST PARK HILL.

PEOPLE GROW UP IN POVERTY, THERE'S ANGER.

SAME THING HAPPENED IN SOUTH CENTRAL LA.

SAME THING HAPPENED IN CHICAGO.

SOMEONE GETS KILLED.

THERE'S A RETALIATORY SHOOTING.

SO IT STARTS WITH THE VIOLENCE, BECAUSE POVERTY BREEDS VIOLENCE.

AND THEN YOU HAVE FAMILIES SAYING, MAN, I CAN'T EVEN GET A SMALL BUSINESS LOAN.

SOMEONE JUST GOT KILLED ON MY CORNER.

IT'S REALLY NOT THE HISTORICAL FIVE POINTS IT USED TO BE.

SO NOW PEOPLE ARE AFRAID, PEOPLE ARE DEPRESSED, SO NOW OTHER PEOPLE MOVE IN.

WE DO HAVE A YOUNG WHITE COUPLE WHO DOES COME FROM GENERATIONAL WEALTH.

WHO DOES HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE, WHO IS MENTALLY STABLE MINDED OR HASN'T DEALT WITH HOMICIDES AND FOOD STAMPS AND FREEZING IN DENVER AND YOU KNOW THEY COME IN, THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO OPEN A STOREFRONT, THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO OPEN A RESTAURANT.

SO WHILE OTHER FAMILIES CAN MOVE INTO THE FIVE POINTS OR TO NORTHEAST PARK HILL, RENOVATE THEIR HOMES, OPEN BUSINESSES, LIVE SAFELY, THERE'S FAMILIES WHO'VE BEEN HERE FOREVER.

WHO ARE STILL POOR AND THEIR KIDS ARE JOINING NEGATIVE PEER GROUPS BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO FEEL SAFE AND AFRICAN AMERICANS RIGHT NOW IN DENVER ARE BEING PUSHED INTO AURORA.

AND BEING PUSHED INTO FAR NORTHEAST DENVER AND INTO THE WEST SIDE.

BUT CENTRAL DENVER, WE DON'T REALLY SEE THAT MANY AFRICAN AMERICAN FAMILIES LIKE IT USED TO BE.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE HISTORICAL FIVE POINTS IN NORTHEAST PARK HILL.

AT ONE POINT IN TIME WAS NEARLY 100% AFRICAN AMERICAN, AND NOW IT'S NOT HARDLY ANYMORE, MAYBE EVEN 30%.

THERE'S OTHER THINGS, BUT IT STARTS WITH RED LINING, IT STARTS WITH REAL ESTATE.

THAT'S POWER.

IT STARTS AT HOME AND A LOT OF PEOPLE REALLY DON'T HAVE HOMES WHO'VE BEEN HERE OR CAN'T AFFORD TO KEEP THEIR HOMES.

- AND THEN TERRANCE IN THE DOCUMENTARY SAYS TO YOU, YOUR LIFE IS AT RISK.

THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS.

SO WHAT MADE YOU CONTINUE TO PURSUE THIS WHEN YOUR SAFETY WAS AT RISK?

- WELL, AT FIRST IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT EASY TO DEAL WITH AND IT WAS FOR SOME RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

I WAS SORT OF, YOU KNOW, IN A MINI CRISIS OF SORTS OF LIKE, WHAT DO I DO BUT SORT OF AS IT SORT OF SANK IN AND I, YOU KNOW, HAD A CHANCE TO REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.

IT MADE ME ONLY MORE DETERMINED TO CONTINUE BECAUSE THE FACT THAT THIS WAS THE CASE SUGGESTED TO ME THAT A, I'M ON TO SOMETHING IMPORTANT AND B IT NEEDS TO BE PUBLIC BECAUSE IT'S BEEN STUFF THAT'S BEEN KIND OF PURPOSEFULLY, YOU KNOW, SWEPT UNDER THE RUG OR EVEN MISREPORTED AT TIMES.

AND IT WAS TIME FOR THAT TO BE OVER.

AND I WAS IN THE POSITION TO DO IT AND I WASN'T GOING TO STOP BECAUSE OF INTIMIDATION.

- AND TERRANCE, IT SEEMS LIKE THE CITY THAT YOU LOVE IN A LOT OF WAYS, KIND OF BETRAYED YOU IN OTHER WAYS.

WHAT MAKES YOU STILL FIGHT FOR DENVER?

- I MEAN, I LOVE DENVER STILL, BUT MAN, I'M GETTING LITERAL MESSAGES ALMOST DAILY.

IT'S SLOWED DOWN A LOT.

PEOPLE FROM AUSTRALIA, PEOPLE FROM HOUSTON, DALLAS, LOS ANGELES, ALL OVER THE WORLD SAYING YO, I SEEN THE HOLLY, YOU'RE AN INSPIRATION.

THAT'S GREAT THAT IT'S REACHING THAT FAR.

YOU KNOW, SO MANY PEOPLE, WHITE PEOPLE, BLACK PEOPLE, LATINO PEOPLE, OLDER PEOPLE, YOUNGER PEOPLE AND IT GIVES ME A BIGGER PURVIEW OVER THE COMMUNITY THAT I'M FIGHTING FOR ANYWAYS, I'M FIGHTING FOR ALL COMMUNITIES, BUT I'M FROM PARK HILL AND THERE'S-- THAT STILL CARRIES WEIGHT AND I'LL NEVER FORGET MY COMMUNITY.

- AND TELL ME BRIEFLY, LIKE WHAT YOU WOULD WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW ABOUT PARK HILL BEYOND THE VIOLENCE?

WHAT'S THE HEART OF PARK HILL?

- I MEAN, PARK HILL WAS LITERALLY LIKE A BLOCK PARTY EVERY DAY JUST BECAUSE WE KNEW EACH OTHER, YOU KNOW, FROM THE HOLLY TO THE DAHLIA, JUST FROM WALKING PAST PEOPLE'S BLOCKS.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE'RE PEOPLE OF COLOR.

WE HAVE MUSIC BLASTING OUT OF OUR CARS.

WE DO BARBECUES, WE HAVE LOUD MUSIC.

WE LIKE THAT KIND OF STUFF.

PEOPLE DANCE IN THE STREET.

YOU KNOW, IT'S A TRIBAL THING.

IT'S LITERALLY MORE, WE USE THE WORD COMMUNITY, BUT IT'S TRIBAL BEHAVIOR, YOU KNOW, AND IT'S A CULTURE, YOU KNOW, PARK HILL HAS A CULTURE.

THE FIVE POINTS HAS A CULTURE.

I MEAN, THERE'S SO MUCH I COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT, IT'D BE A RANT ABOUT POSITIVITY ABOUT PARK HILL.

- I JUST WANT TO ADD TO THAT, BECAUSE THE SUPPORTERS FROM THE COMMUNITY ARE THE BIGGEST SUPPORTERS OF THE PROJECT.

I MEAN, THEY'RE THE REASON WE WON THE AUDIENCE AWARD OF THE DENVER FILM FESTIVAL.

IT WAS PACKED, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A COMMUNITY IN WHICH THERE WERE TONS OF ACTIVISTS, TONS.

INCLUDI INCLUDING ARGUABLY THE CENTER OF DENVER'S CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WAS RIGHT THERE IN HOLLY SQUARE.

WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IS LOOK AT, THEN WHY DID THAT PLACE TURN INTO A PLACE THAT WAS OVER POLICED?

LET'S THINK ABOUT THAT.

AND LET'S THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT CYCLE IS AND WHY THAT CONTINUES TO HAPPEN.

- AND THEN I THINK WE'LL MOVE ON NOW TO WHAT'S HAPPENED SINCE THE DOCUMENTARY.

AND I WANT TO START WITH THE PASSING OF YOUR FATHER, PASTOR GEORGE ROBERTS.

SINCE THE FILMING.

IT WAS CLEAR THAT HE WAS BY YOUR SIDE THROUGH THE GOOD AND THE BAD.

HOW DID HIS PASSING IMPACT YOUR WORK?

- YOU KNOW, MY DAD USED TO ALWAYS SAY BEFORE HE PASSED, LIKE, WE'RE NOT ACTIVISTS ANYMORE BECAUSE I HAVE MY OWN CHILDREN AND I HAVE MY OWN WORK AND MY OWN CAREER.

SO, MY DAD JUST REALLY TAUGHT ME IT'S OK IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IT.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

WHAT MORE CAN YOU DO ANYWAYS?

- AND THEN HOW DID COMPLETING THE BOOK AND THE DOCUMENTARY THE HOLLY, IMPACT YOUR TRAJECTORY OF WORK?

- WELL, YOU KNOW WE'RE IT'S STILL WE TALK ABOUT THIS SOMETIMES.

I MEAN THE STORY IS SORT OF STILL GOING.

I MEAN WE WERE INVITED TO A SCREENING YOU KNOW IN LA BECAUSE WE WERE UNDER CONSIDERATION FOR THE OSCARS.

WE DID NOT GET THE NOMINATION, BUT THAT'S FINE BECAUSE IT WAS JUST MORE PEOPLE FINDING IT.

AND NOW, I'M ALSO, YOU KNOW, TEACHING DOCUMENTARY FILM AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT MY NEXT PROJECT IS YET PEOPLE ASK ME ALL THE TIME.

I DON'T KNOW YET.

BUT IT'S JUST BEEN REALLY AN EYE OPENING PROCESS FROM BEGINNING AND STILL GOING.

- AND TERRANCE, WHAT'S YOUR GREATEST HOPE FOR THE HOLLY?

- WHATEVER HAPPENS THERE IN THAT SPACE, I HOPE IT'S SOMETHING FOR YOUTH, FOR WOMEN, FOR THE COMMUNITY, WHATEVER THAT IS.

I'M NOT THERE TO MAKE THAT DECISION ANYMORE.

SO WHATEVER IS THERE, I JUST HOPE THAT, YOU KNOW, THE HOLLY BECOMES A BLOCK PARTY AGAIN, LIKE IT USED TO BE.

AND THAT IT'S SAFE AND EVERYONE'S WELCOME.

AND IT'S POSSIBLE.

I BELIEVE IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

- WELL, THANK YOU BOTH FOR ALL THE WORK YOU PUT INTO THIS AND FOR SHARING YOUR STORIES AND FOR CHATTING WITH ME TODAY.

- THANKS FOR HAVING US.

- THANKS A LOT.