>> Cathy: YOU HEARD FROM FRED SAM DELAZARO, THURSDAY FEDERAL CHARGES WERE ANNOUNCED AGAINST THREE PEOPLE CHARACTERIZED AS THE "RING LEADERS" OF AN ANTI-I.C.E.

PROTEST DURING A CHURCH SERVICE LAST WEEKEND.

CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY NEKIMA LEVY ARMSTRONG, ST.

PAUL SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER CHAUNTYLL ALLEN AND SOCIAL MEDIA PERSONALITY WILLIAM KELLY WERE ARRESTED AND HELD OVERNIGHT.

A FEDERAL JUDGE ORDERED THEIR RELEASE ON FRIDAY.

AS OF MID AFTERNOON LEVY ARMSTRONG AND ALLEN HAD BEEN RELEASED.

TWO IMAGES OF LEVY ARMSTRONG BEING TAKEN INTO CUSTODY ON THURSDAY HAVE BEEN ALL OVER SOCIAL MEDIA.

ONE OF THEM IS REAL.

THE OTHER ONE WAS ALTERED BY THE WHITE HOUSE WITH THE USE OF ARTIFICAL INTELLIGENCE.

THE WHITE HOUSE SAYS THEY WILL CONTINUE TO USE AI TO CREATE "MEMES."

JANE KIRTLEY HEADS UP THE SILHA CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF MEDIA ETHICS AND LAW AT THE U OF M. GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Cathy: I REMEMBER SEEING THAT PICTURE TODAY, AS A MATTER OF FACT, AND I LOOKED AT THIS, AND I THOUGHT, THAT CANNOT BE REAL.

>> THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S NOT.

>> Cathy: I MEAN, KNOWING NEKIMA LEVY-ARMSTRONG.

HOW SURPRISED WERE YOU TO LEARN THAT THE WHITE HOUSE ADMITTED TO DOING THIS?

>> IT'S BRAZEN IS THE ONLY WORD THAT I CAN USE.

THE FACT THAT THEY WOULD SAY, OH, IT'S A EME, MEANS IT'S ONE OF THESE SITUATIONS WHERE THEY'RE SAYING, OH, IT'S HUMOROUS, YOU KNOW, NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

IT'S OUTRAGEOUS, AND IT'S ALSO INCREDIBLY STUPID BECAUSE THEY HAD RELEASED THE CORRECT PHOTO IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, SO BY RELEASING THIS ONE, THEY JUST SET THEMSELVES UP FOR EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED, WHICH WAS A SOCIAL MEDIA EXPLOSION ABOUT REVEALING THAT THEY HAD DONE THIS.

>> Eric: THIS KIND OF STUFF, NOT ON THIS SUBJECT MATTER EVEN, BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS SEEMS TO BE INCREASING.

>> IT IS.

AND I THINK IT'S A POLICY, PRETTY CLEARLY.

I MEAN, WE KNOW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CASUAL WITH THE TRUTH.

BUT WE ALSO NOW SEE THAT ON GOVERNMENT WEBSITES AND IN THESE COMMUNICATIONS, OFTEN IN THEIR TROLLING SOCIAL MEDIA, THAT THEY CHEERFULLY AND CASUALLY LIE ABOUT EVERYTHING.

>> Eric: UT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ISN'T ALONE.

THIS IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE LANDSCAPE.

>> WELL, OF COURSE, GOVERNMENTS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CARELESS ABOUT TRUTHFULNESS.

BUT THIS IS AT NEW LEVEL, I THINK.

AND TERRIBLY DANGEROUS BECAUSE HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY HAVE A SERIOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT POLICY IF WE CAN'T HAVE SOME FACTS THAT WE CAN AGREE ON.

AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU THINK BACK TO THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ALTERNATIVE FACTS, FAKE EWS, ONCE AGAIN, WE NOW HAVE THIS ADMINISTRATION ESSENTIALLY ENGAGING IN THE VERY SAME THINGS IT WAS ACCUSING OTHERS OF DOING IN THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION.

WHICH WAS MAKING THINGS UP.

>> Cathy: CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO FOLKS HOW DO MEMES AND IMAGES REINFORCE BELIEFS?

>> IT HAS A TREMENDOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON PEOPLE.

ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO, LET'S SAY, JUST GO TO THE SIMILAR SOURCES ALL THE TIME, WHETHER IT'S SOCIAL MEDIA OR PARTICULAR NEWS OUTLET, AND IF IT REINFORCES THE BELIEF THAT THEY HAVE, IT'S CATCHY, IT'S EYE CATCHY, IT'S MEMORABLE, AND IT JUST SAYS, OKAY, THIS MUST BE THE TRUTH.

I LIKE THIS.

>> Eric: IF THIS IS THE WILD WILD WEST, IN THIS SOCIAL MEDIA SITUATION, DOES THE FIRST AMENDMENT COME INTO PLAY?

WHAT ROLE DOES IT PLAYER, I GUESS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID THAT WE HAVE A RIGHT TO LIE UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.

THAT'S PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

AND THAT EXTENDS BASICALLY TO EVERYBODY AND EVEN TO THE GOVERNMENT, EXCEPT IN SOME LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES.

BUT I THINK ULTIMATELY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS A WORLD WHERE YOU HAVE NO CONFIDENCE THAT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS TRUE UNLESS IT REINFORCES WHAT YOU ALREADY BELIEVE.

FOR ME, IT'S JUST SUCH A FUNDAMENTAL ASSAULT ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES, SMALL D DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES, I CAN'T WRAP MY HEAD AROUND IT.

>> Cathy: I'M SUCH A CYNIC, I WONDER IF THIS IS ALL DELIBERATE.

>> I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT IT'S DELIBERATE.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO SAY THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT STEVE BANNON WANTED TO DO, THAT STEVEN MILLER NOW WANTS TO DO.

IT'S PROPAGANDA.

IT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT WE'VE SEEN IN AUTO CRACKED COUNTRIES AROUND THE -- AUTOCRATIC COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

AND IT'S ALL ABOUT SHIFTING THE SANDS UNDER PEOPLE SO THEY REALLY DON'T KNOW QUITE WHAT TO BELIEVE.

AND I'M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD TRUST THE GOVERNMENT IMPLICITLY, BUT IF YOU REALLY CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS DELIBERATELY LYING TO YOU, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU HAVE TRUST AFTER THAT.

>> Cathy: WHAT ABOUT FOLKS LIKE US, THE MEDIA, BIG M MEDIA, I GUESS, SO WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO?

BECAUSE I KNEW WHEN I SAW THAT IMAGE, THAT WAS A AKE IMAGE.

BUT OTHER NORMAL PEOPLE WOULDN'T HAVE THAT ABILITY.

>> THAT'S TRUE, BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TOOLS OUT THERE THAT MAKES IT POSSIBLE.

EVEN FOR NORMAL PEOPLE TO TRY TO DETERMINE WHETHER SOMETHING HAS BEEN AI GENERATED.

THERE ARE AI DETECTION TOOLS, THERE ARE A VARIETY OF THINGS THAT ANYBODY CAN USE.

BUT OBVIOUSLY THE NEWS MEDIA, I THINK, HAVE A CLEAR, ETHICAL OBLIGATION TO CHECK FOR THE WATER MARKS, TO CHECK FOR AI GENERATION, AND TO CALL THEM OUT ON IT, BECAUSE IF SOMEBODY DOESN'T DO IT, THIS KIND OF PERPETUATION OF LIES, WHICH IS WHAT THESE ARE, WILL CONTINUE UNABATED.

>> Eric: CAN THE TECH COMPANIES BE COMPELLED TO DO SOMETHING?

I ASSUME THEY COULD.

>> IN THEORY, YES.

YOU MENTIONED THE FIRST AMENDMENT, THAT'S BEEN ONE OF THE BIG OBSTACLES.

TECH COMPANIES HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH MURDER EVERY SINCE THE ENACTMENT OF SECTION 230 AND IT GIVES THEM TREMENDOUS IMMUNITY FOR OUR USER-GENERATED CONTENT.

THEY COULD USE TO DO THIS ON THEIR OWN, BUT FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO FORCE THEM TO DO IT, IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

>> Cathy: SAY, I GOTTA ASK YOU ABOUT THE CHURCH PROTEST ON SUNDAY.

>> YES.

>> Cathy: THAT, AS WE WERE TALKING ON THE COUCH, WAS A RED LINE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO DISRUPT A CHURCH SERVICE.

>> YEAH.

>> Cathy: BUT WAS THAT COVERED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT?

>> WELL, IT'S COMPLICATED.

BUT THERE IS THIS LAW, OU MENTIONED THE FACE ACT, THAT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO GO IN AND TERRORIZE PEOPLE IN CHURCHES.

FAITH ACT.

IT'S A LAW THAT HAS NOT BEEN USED IN THAT CONTEXT.

ODDLY ENOUGH, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WANTED TO HAVE THE LAW REPEALED, BUT NOW THEY'RE USING IT IN THIS VERY AGGRESSIVE WAY.

DO PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTEST IN A CHURCH?

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS IS, WE WERE INVITED IN.

WELL, YOU WERE INVITED IN FOR WHAT PURPOSE?

WAS IT TO PROTEST?

AND IF THAT WASN'T THE PURPOSE, THEN YOU MIGHT HAVE A TRESPASS CHARGE.

BUT THE NOTION THAT THIS IS TERRORISM, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT THE FAITH ACT IS ABOUT, SEEMS TO ME TO BE OVERREACH HERE.

I THINK THAT THIS WILL NOT STABBED WOULD BE MY PREDICTION.

>> Cathy: ALL RIGHT.

>> Eric: APPRECIATE YOU COMING OVER.

THANKS A LOT.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Eric: GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> Cathy: WE'RE GOING