(light music) - The University of Wyoming School of Law spent tens of millions of dollars to expand and renovate the old law school.

Now, a new center dedicated to one of Wyoming's all-time favorite sons, Alan K. Simpson, has been dedicated.

I'm Steve Peck of Wyoming PBS.

This is "Wyoming Chronicle".

(upbeat music continues) - [Announcer] Funding for "Wyoming Chronicle" is made possible in part by Wyoming Humanities, enhancing the Wyoming narrative to promote engaged communities and improve our quality of life.

And, by the members of Wyoming PBS, thank you for your support.

- [Steve] Following a two year remodeling and renovation project, at a cost of nearly $40 million, the University of Wyoming College of Law welcomed a whose who of Wyoming leadership to Laramie for the ribbon cutting of the newly expanded facility.

(people chanting) - Three, two, one.

- Three, two, one.

(people cheering) (upbeat band music) - [Steve] The grand opening coincided with the dedication of the new Alan K. Simpson Center for Clinical and Experiential Learning.

Now 93-years-old, the beloved former U.S. senator was in fine form, and remarks delivered at the ceremony.

- I launched my way through this institution, not here.

Now, speaking of institution, this is the only institution on this campus named after a C student.

(audience laughs) No question, no I've looked.

(audience clapping) I've looked it up.

(audience laughs) I never did graduate cum laude, I graduated thank the laude.

(audience laughs) And there were legions of young lawyers who could be here this day.

Obviously, I had a tough time in law school.

There were, 18 of us in the class, and so, I get to Harvard, and other places, they say now, "What did you graduate in your class?"

I said, "I was 18th."

(audience laughs) "Well that's a good number, how many were in your class?"

"18."

(audience laughs) And so I was limited, and went to the dean one time, and I said, "I study with these guys, they all get A's, "and I get C's, and why is that?"

And he said, "Well," he said, "There are many people who can dance, "but there are very few Fred Astaire's, "and you Simpson are not Fred Astaire."

(audience laughs) - Inside, amid the reconnecting and reminiscing, "Wyoming Chronicle" invited guests to share their thoughts about the college of law, their own days in law school, and the value of a legal education for lawyers and non lawyers alike.

The respondents included some famous Wyoming faces.

(people talking indistinctly) What's your name sir?

- My name's Mike Sullivan.

- And what's your name sir?

- Matt Mead.

- What's your name ma'am?

- Steve, my name is Lynn Baumgartner.

- Now that sounds familiar to me, you are, you have a position in the State of Wyoming, don't you?

- My position right now is as justice on the Wyoming's Supreme Court.

- My name is Greg Phillips.

- Now you are a one of the more distinguished alumna of the University of Wyoming College of Law, you're on the federal bench now, correct?

- I'm on the 10th circuit court of appeal, Wyoming's soul representative.

- So you're a judge.

You have affiliation with a lotta things in Wyoming.

- My name is Phil Litlus.

- So before we went on the air, you told me you had some classmates, at least as well known as you are.

Who are some of 'em?

- Dave Freudenthal, Nancy Freudenthal, they weren't married at the time, and Roger McDaniel, he's a long time lawyer.

- Sure.

- And now, a minister.

And Dave Freudenthal and I, and Roger and I used to commute together.

So we, for two years, we drove over the pass in our second and third year, so.

- Even in the wintertime?

- All in crummy cars.

(man in white shirt laughs) I had a wonderful career practicing law, I worked for a lawyers law firm and.

- [Steve] Where was that?

- I worked for a firm, Holland and Hart for more than 35 years almost.

- What's your name?

- Amanda Newton.

- You're a graduate of UW College of Law?

- I am, 2000, so 24 years ago.

- 2000.

Why did you wanna get into law?

- Well, my father was a practicing lawyer, and so I just grew up-- - Say his name for us, people of Wyoming will know him.

- Sure, Ray Hunkins.

Ray Hunkins is my father, so, growing up around it, I wanted to go to law school, and had a wonderful experience here.

And the clinical programs, which is part of the expansion, are a key aspect of this college of law, you really get some hands-on experience, at least you did 24 years ago when I was there.

- Sounds like that's part of what this new.

- So.

- Center is like.

If someone could benefit from spending half hour even with a law student, to get some knowledge, get some advice, it's worth doing.

- Absolutely, absolutely.

- Tell us your name sir.

(people talking indistinctly) - Yes, Paul Hicke, I'm an attorney from Cheyenne, I practiced for 45 years.

And, a graduate of the University of Wyoming College of Law and had-- - When was that, if you don't mind my asking?

- Graduated in 1975, had an undergraduate degree from arts and sciences.

And just kept on a path to get three years of law school, and then, started my career in Cheyenne as a law clerk for honorable judge James E. Barrett of the United States-- - Really?

- Court of appeals for the tenth circuit.

And then practiced in Cheyenne for 45 years Steve.

- What do you recall about those days at UW College of Law in the '70's?

- My class was down the street on Ivanson, we were by where the College of Business is now.

But a great time to be in law school, a little bit of a turbulent time in the '70's.

- So important people, some significant people obviously, got their start here.

This school is a big part of the State of Wyoming.

- Oh it really is, and I think you heard some of it Steve, in the comments that were made by these wonderful folks.

- Sure.

- Justice Kite, Senator Simpson, Governor Sullivan, Hermit Brown, who all focused on part of the community that we have from the Wyoming bar, and the graduates of this school, are folks who understand it's important to give back.

And that a part of the education we received at the University of Wyoming, and that we are passing onto the next generation of Wyoming lawyers, is to accept those responsibilities.

- Is the Wyoming Supreme Court majority women, at the moment?

- It is.

- That's what I thought.

- It is right now, it has been, we have women number two, three, and four, as far as historical female appointments.

And we su-- - And I think number one we heard speak earlier today, right?

- Exactly right, Justice Kites and really valuable mentor and friend of mine.

- In addition to that service, we're here at the UW College of Law for this expanded grand opening of the new center.

You are a College of Law graduate, correct?

- I am, class of 1991.

I came back to law school, I had been a high school science teacher for a few years.

And it was during one of the best times.

And, we wanted to stay in Wyoming, so I decided to go to law school.

And interestingly, there were a lot, it was sort of starting the trend in non traditional students coming, so I think the median age of starting students in my class was between 28 and 30, which was right where I was.

So, I was really comfortable, more comfortable than I might've expected, because there were a lot of classmates who had had earlier careers, and brought a lot of diverse experience.

- You're an important person at the UW College of Law.

What's your name?

- My name's Julie Hill.

- [Steve] And how are you affiliated?

- I am the new Dean, as the University of Wyoming College of Law.

I've been here-- - Do you-- - Two months.

- Two months, and here you get to be part of this great grand opening.

What was the state of the project when you were applying for the job, for example?

- We were about a year into construction.

Actually, I taught as a visiting faculty member the first semester of construction.

So I was part of the faculty when they were tearing the building apart.

And this, puttin' it back together is way more fun.

Wyoming started building a clinical legal education program back in the 1970's.

They quickly outgrew their building here, and they moved to an annex across grand avenue.

And there's just a long trek for the students, not a very nice facility.

- What's important about having the better space for this clinical part of the College of Law?

- Well look, just because you don't have money to pay, doesn't mean you don't want quality legal representation.

And so when clients come to the law school now, they'll enter through a clinic entrance, they'll come up to a clinic waiting area that looks like a law firm, right.

They're gonna come, they're gonna know they're getting quality legal representation.

I worry a little bit with our last space, that people thought, "Well it's free, "and there's students, and the building isn't nice, "maybe we're not getting the same quality of justice "as everyone else."

But this facility shows that we care, and we care about the quality of experience that they have with the clinic, we care about the quality of representation that they receive.

And I just think people are gonna know, this is a professional environment, that our students know what they're doing.

I just think it's gonna be a great experience for our students, for the community, for our faculty.

We're so excited about it.

- You had a position in state government as I recall?

- I did some time ago.

- Two terms as governor.

- Two terms as governor, '87 to '95.

- '95.

But you're here today because you're also an alum of the UW College of Law.

- That's correct.

- Willing to tell us what year that, so what graduating class you were?

- Graduated 60 years ago this year.

- [Steve] No kidding.

- 1964.

- What drew you to the practice of law?

I think I know the answer, but I wanna hear you say it.

- (Mike laughs) Well it's interesting, my father was a lawyer, an-- - What was his name?

- Joe Sullivan.

- Joe Sullivan.

- And Douglas.

My grandfather was a lawyer, he practiced here in Laramie.

And, my uncle was a lawyer.

And, as a result of all of that, I concluded I didn't wanna be a lawyer.

(Steve laughs) So I went to engineering school here, got a degree in petroleum engineering, and concluded about halfway through engineering that ya know, law doesn't sound that bad, after trying to figure out electrical engineering, and mechanical engineering.

And, so I got my degree, and then came to law school here.

- Now you practiced law for a long time, and didn't really have a ton of political experience before you ran for office, am I right?

- No, I hadn't held elective office until I decided to take a risk.

- Legal education helped you come to that decision, helped you, your campaign, and I know it must've helped you in office.

- If I hadn't been a lawyer, I don't know how I could've been a governor with no experience.

- Tell us your name ma'am.

- I'm Denise Burke.

- Where do you live?

- I live in Cheyenne now.

- Cheyenne?

And you're here at this really fun event today at the UW College of Law, where the new Al Simpson Center is being dedicated.

What's your affiliation with the law school, or what has it been?

- Oh wow, well, I was a graduate of the College of Law, graduated from here in 1993.

Then I was with the attorney general's office for a number of years, and did a number of other things.

And in the fall of 2002, I was hired as associate dean, and I was here from 2002 to 2013.

- Who was the attorney general when you were in the AG's office?

- Bill Hill is who hired me.

- Bill Hill?

Speaking of prominent members of the legal profession in the state, what do you remember about your law school days?

- Oh wow.

(Denise laughs) I had been a high school English teacher.

- [Steve] Really?

- Before going to law school.

But I'd always said I wanted to be a lawyer.

And, when I was making that career decision, it was not a career for women, and I was told that.

My parents were very supportive, but it was not, ya know, high school guidance councilors saying, (Denise groaning) "The law's not for women."

And I guess I heard that and said, "Okay, well I'll file that away for another day."

And, I don't regret my teaching years, but it took me a while then to have the teaching career and then say, "Okay, this is really what I still want to do."

And so I focused on education law and health law, and that's in fact, the same areas that I still advise in today.

- Now when you were in law school, what facility was your home?

- Well, the building that opened in 1977 was our home.

And so none of this of course was here.

And then when I was dean, we did our first, there were a couple of additions, the Hopper library was added, and then we added the courtrooms.

And so these were all in my tenure, not as a law student, but ya know as associate dean.

And so, a lot of change, but, nothing like this.

- Take the long view, I mean that's what you had to do then, but you're here to see it.

- Absolutely.

- Must be a satisfying day.

- It is, very.

I mean, for years we talked about this, because, part of my job responsibilities were recruiting and retaining students.

And, our experiential learning programs were top notch, but we didn't have facilities that supported that.

- Recruiting just got a lot easier didn't it?

- It did.

(Steve laughs) It sure did.

It's, well it's really key, I mean I think, maybe not key, because the academic rigor, the programs themselves, but having a place where one you're proud of it, where when you're representing clients, you can bring them into a facility and they know that they're getting actual legal representation.

Whereas I think previously they thought, "Well, these are student lawyers, "am I really getting good legal advice?"

And so, making it much more professional, and having that total experience for the clients is huge.

I also think that it helps lawyers to prepare for what they want to be as lawyers out in the practice world, so, it's very very important.

- You were, had a position in state government as I recall.

- I think your memory's correct, yeah, I served as governor for eight years and.

- Well what were your years of election?

- I was elected 2010, started service in 2011.

- Reelected in 2014.

- Yep, exactly, yep.

- Since you've left office, I know you've done some teaching, and-- - A little bit of teaching yeah.

- Keeping your hand in so-to-speak, drop the name for me, where was that?

- I was fortunate enough to be a fellow at Harvard for a fall semester, and I enjoyed that very much.

- Good experience?

- Great experience.

I attribute even being asked, to governor Sullivan who served there, and of course Senator Simpson made a big mark there in a positive way.

- So you're here today to be part of the dedication of the new Simpson Center at the UW College of Law.

You're an alum, correct?

- I am, I am.

- What was your class year?

- We started in '84, graduated in '87, so yeah.

- What were those years like for you?

What are you recalling about that today?

- Well, I tell people, I enjoyed law school more than college, more than high school.

- [Steve] Really?

- In part because the education was wonderful, but, lifelong friends.

The first year, or first day of law school, the first year, I ran into Greg Phillips, and he and I are very close friends now.

Of course, he's on the federal bench.

And, just so many of the classmates I've kept up with.

I mean it's really a lifelong relationship.

It serves you, not only in the law, but it serves you as well, just the friendships, you know you can't overstate the value of those.

And so, I tell young people that are interested in Wyoming who think they wanna be in the law, I said, "If you want to practice in Wyoming, "University of Wyoming is the law school to go to."

- What we're learning today is something I think I knew, and I appreciated more over the past couple of hours.

University of Wyoming College of Law prepares a lot of good people for a lot of important work doesn't it?

- Really does, I gave a graduation speech here, and I said I thought the law school was the second most influential building in the state behind the state capital.

- No kidding.

- When you-- - And you know both of those, don't you?

- When you look back, and you see the effect and impact on communities.

- Well, you would know better than most, you were in the legislature as well.

What was your class year?

- My class year was 1987.

- '87.

What do you remember about those years in law school?

Some classmates, or classes, or atmosphere, that kinda thing?

- My most important professor was a guy named Jack Van Balen, and as I say, at his passing, there's not a day in my job that I've ever had in the law that I don't use a lesson that was instructed by him.

- Look at that.

Tell me a little more about him, what was great about him?

- He was a Philadelphia lawyer who came out here, loved the high country.

- He did?

- And, I don't know, I don't think he was a very popular teacher, but he taught us to think like lawyers and how to read a snatcher, and what does this word mean next to this word.

And, we learned not to breeze over things, but to get very careful on that language.

And, lasting lifetime impact.

- You have affiliation with a lot of things in Wyoming.

You're here for the law school center dedication today.

What's been your involvement in this project?

- Well, the involvement was securing the funding, and-- - Pretty important one.

- Funding and then-- - You did that as in your capacity as a long time legislature.

- I did.

And then but the greatest involvement I had is in the exterior, and the architecture of the campus, and trying to get the campus back to the original, what we call a collegiate gothic Romanesque, and this building really represents what you see on pr-- - So we're talking, yeah we're talking about these great sandstone exteriors?

- Yep.

- And that was important to you because over the years there have been some, great new buildings put up, but they didn't always adhere to that, and you think that's important.

- Well it is important, because part of what happens if you think about it is the original sandstone was quarried here in Laramie.

And what our forefathers recognized is if you take native stone and you build beautiful buildings, that the native, the abrasiveness of the Laramie high plains sand, they weather well.

And as soon as you start going to the modern architecture, which is steel, and things like that, they erode, they tarnish, the abrasive Laramie weather beats it up.

But what you're also seeing is that when architects would come up with these great ideas for buildings, then they would value, and (Phil speaking indistinctly) out the exterior to save the space for the professors.

And what the legislature, and folks that cared about the campus said, from now on, the exterior's important, and you need to retain it.

But recognize that the colors outta match your surroundings and where the stone comes from.

- So, it's more than just the look, it's the all form-- - It's a lot more.

- Must follow function thing, and here you've done both.

- Exactly right.

That's right.

- And you're an alum of the law school as well, correct?

- I am.

- What was your class here?

- Well I was graduated '79, I think my dad graduated in about '54.

- What's his name?

- And like.

His name was Jack Nicholas, Lander, your neck of the woods.

And then my grandfather was admitted to the bar, the same year as the law school was formed.

And the coincident there is that he drafted, the family folklore is he drafted the petition for Thurman Arnold to start the law school, but he was the last, he was a registrar of University of Wyoming at the time.

And, so he, we kinda been associated with the law school for 100 years.

- 100 years, wow, not many families can say that.

Please, tell us your name sir.

- I am Bill Schwartz.

- And you ma'am?

- I'm Cheryl Rank Schwartz.

- And are you related in some way?

- Yes.

- Yeah, we are.

- As matter of fact we are.

Yes we are-- - You are here, not just because of this, but an interesting aspect of it is you are husband and wife, both graduates of UW College of Law, correct?

- Yes we met.

- We are.

- We met in law school here our first year.

- And we got married.

- We all sat together.

- The day we graduated from law school.

- And you have Cheryl Rank Schwartz, you have a well known relative in Wyoming, Jarus Prudence as well, who's that?

- Do.

My father is Robert B Rank, he was a judge up in Jackson for about 14 years or so.

And, he was an interesting character.

(Cheryl laughs) - [Steve] So law kinda runs in the family then.

- It does, it does.

We've got two daughters that also went to the University of Wyoming College of Law.

- [Steve] Is that so?

- So, it runs deep.

- A son-in-law.

- And a son-in-law.

- He went to.

My dad was a lawyer, but he lived in Casper, but he went to Nebraska, my goodness.

(Steve groans) - I know.

- Okay, show's off.

(Cheryl laughs) - Exactly, we're done, absolutely.

- But my-- - But he compensated for that, is what you're saying.

- He did.

- [Steve] Your daughter's your law partner now?

- Yes, she is.

- Where's that?

- In Jackson.

- Jackson?

- Yes.

My dad, her dad ya know.

When I went to law school-- - But we needed to come back.

- Before I went down to Laramie he said, "Watch out for that Rank girl, "she might punch you in the nose."

(Cheryl laughs) - That sealed the deal, is that what happened?

- That sealed the deal.

- Our son-in-law, did we say?

He's a UW law grad.

- And met Leah, our daughter.

- Here.

- In law school.

- Awesome, okay.

(Cheryl laughs) - He's from New York, he wanted out of the city.

He wanted to go to the smallest law school in the nation, learned it was Wyoming, got in his car with his cat, drove to Laramie.

- And drove to Wyoming.

- Sight unseen, and, he's been here ever since.

- What's the value of a legal education?

- Learning to think like a lawyer, and to analyze issues.

And the other parts are, contributing to society, you can help people.

I still do pro bono work.

And, lawyers have a special, both ability to help people in times the greatest need.

- Legal education serves a person well, correct?

- I'm kind of the poster girl for different things that you can do.

I came to law school with a zoology degree, not very typical.

I was able to practice in the energy and natural resources fields.

I was able to teach at this law school that I love, for both as an adjunct and as a faculty member for two full years.

And then I went on, governor Freudenthal asked me to be the Director of the Office of State Lands and Investments.

So, I was able to do that for seven years.

And I really do, ya know with all my heart, credit it to the fact that I had this really wonderful legal education that's allowed me to stay and work in the State of Wyoming.

- The common question I'm asking everyone who's stopping here with me today is, what's the usefulness, the value of a legal education for any person, even if a person doesn't end up practicing law?

(people talking indistinctly) - Oh, a legal education is the best education in the world.

- Yeah, oh yeah, how come?

- Because it teaches three really key skills.

Number one, it teaches you to think critically, to analyze things from all different perspectives.

Number two, it teaches you to write really well.

And so, being able to communicate what you want to other people, I mean, you've got to know that that's a key thing that lots of folks need.

And then it teaches you, maybe indirectly, the value of perseverance and hard work.

We don't make law school exceptionally easy here, and, we think our students come out knowing how to work hard and do a good job for their clients, or for whatever they end up doing.

- So you'd recommend the legal education for a young person thinking about it?

- Well I'd tell 'em to think about it, then I'd think about it again.

(Mike laughs) - Not the easiest path in the world but-- - No it isn't, but, one beauty of the legal education is you never know what might be walking through the door the next day.

So you have to be kind of adaptable and adjustable, and so, it keeps you loose.

- What's the value of the legal education as you see it, after a long career in law and government both?

- In terms of my job as U.S. attorney, and as my job as governor, and as a rancher now, it is something you use every day.

In part, not just the law itself, but, ya know to be able to come here and do a much better job when you leave, and critical thinking, and asking the right questions.

You don't need all the answers, but be able to ask them the good questions.

And not that I became an expert at it, but I was a heck of a lot better when I left than when I started.

And I think that's the value of a legal education, and in particular, a value of legal education University of Wyoming, where the classes are small, the interaction amongst the classmates is important.

And the interaction with the staff and the professors, where you can, ya know walk upstairs and have a conversation with a professor.

You don't get that at every law school and it is a huge advantage to have one-on-one with the professor and say, "I don't understand this, could you help me?"

And they gladly help you.

- I've encountered some people here today who are graduates of the College of Law who didn't become practicing attorneys, but they still valued the education they got.

What do you think about that?

- Law school education is a very well rounded education, and could take you on so many different roads in life.

It really does teach you how to think in a different way, and I think that's valuable.

- Concur?

(Cheryl laughs) - I concur.

- Do you object?

- Council.

(Bill laughs) - What recommends a legal education to any person?

- When you walk into law school, your life will never be the same.

Knowing that you can make a difference in our society, in the lives of individual people, and how it impacts you personally, that it is so enriching.

There's, no two days are ever the same in the practice of law, and that I really love.