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[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi, I'm Steve Adubato, everything you want, frankly, what you need to know about politics in New Jersey and the nation.

We have two political experts we joined, and we're joined by our good friend, Phil Alagia, who's Democratic Strategist, and Chief of Staff in Essex County to the County Executive, Joe DiVincenzo, and also another great friend, Jeanette Hoffman, Republican Strategist, and President of Marathon Public Affairs.

Good to see you, Phil and Jeanette.

- Good to see you.

- Thanks, Steve.

- Thanks for having us.

- We don't do politics per se, we don't do partisan politics.

We don't do what's going on every day.

So, we're taping at the end of September; being seen later.

There's a gubernatorial election, the incumbent Phil Murphy, Republican Challenger, Jack Ciattarelli; someone's gonna win.

Jeanette, what will be the most significant issues, whoever wins for governor, from a policy perspective, that he will face?

- Well, we're still in a pandemic, Steve, and I think that's largely defined Governor Murphy's term and how he's handled it.

And that's some of the issues that Jack Ciattarelli, the challenger's, raised, is how Governor Murphy's dealt with the pandemic.

According to Jack Ciattarelli, he could have done better.

Some of the issues that he talks about is, you know, one-third of small businesses in New Jersey have closed.

So, that's an issue that we've been hearing on the campaign trail.

Taxes, the economy, always important issues for New Jersey.

You know, we are one of the most expensive states to live in.

Jack Ciattarelli's saying, Phil Murphy's not your candidate because Phil Murphy himself has said, you know, if you care about taxes, we're not your state.

So, you know, that's an issue that we're always gonna deal with here in New Jersey, that the cost of living and property taxes.

- Whole range of others, by the way if this is seen before November the second, check out our two in-depth half hour interviews, one with Governor Murphy, the other with Jack Ciattarelli.

Phil you're in government, but you're also in politics, as you will.

What do you believe, beyond COVID and dealing with it, will be the major issues facing our next Governor, be the incumbent or the challenger.

- I think it has to be either you say in spite of Kroger, except for COVID- - Is it only COVID, Phil?

Is it only COVID?

- And this whole thing, I think we're gonna have to dig out of financial situations, how we do schooling, how we run our government, what businesses do, are they going to come back and have, you know, small businesses are closing around the country and not in New Jersey.

And we do lead our peer states, New Jersey, New York, Delaware, Pennsylvania, in how we handle the COVID response, but we're going to have to financially figure out how we get what the new normal is.

I don't think we're ever going to get back to where we are.

I don't think companies are going to have people come into the office five days a week, and that impacts the people who are doing, selling coffee downstairs in the offices.

So I think the next Governor, will be Phil Murphy, will be responsible for the economic impact of getting out of this.

- Alright, so, both of you, one Democrat, one Republican, but neither of you is seen as extremist, if you will, right?

People can decide what that means.

Phil, and then Jeanette, same question, but with a different twist.

Phil, is there really one Democratic party, or is there a party with extremes; Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez, Senator Manchin, from West Virginia, and then everyone else trying to figure out where they are.

Are there really two parties that are not united on very much, Phil?

And then trust me, Jeanette, there's a Republican slash Trump party question coming.

Go ahead, Phil.

- Trump's Tea Party.

I think that's what's great about the Democratic party, is we have an inclusive all-inclusive tent.

We have moderates, we have very liberal Democrats, and we come together and try to put the best Democratic platform forward.

- Do you come together, Phil, do you really come together, the Democrats?

Listen, we don't know what's going to happen in Washington as we speak, but do you really believe "Democrats" of all stripes are coming together as opposed to, fighting with each other constantly?

- I think that's the problem with both parties, right?

Do you think the moderate Republicans are going to come together with the Trump Tea Party Republicans?

It's an issue that's facing.

I mean, some people say in 10, 15, 20 years from now, will we have three parties, will we have a far left party, a far right party, and a moderate party?

And then Jeanette and I might be in the same party at that point.

- Well, you know, Jeanette, Phil makes a great point.

The Democrats have this very large tent with a lot of debate and discussion and frankly disagreement, but the Republicans, in spite of what Phil Alagia just said, do you really have diversity in your party, or with the Lynn Cheney's list?

Is it Liz Cheney?

I apologize, Congresswoman Cheney, and so many others who are not even gonna run again because they're moderates, Phil says they're moderate Republicans.

They're like, there's no place for us in your party.

Is there really a place in the Republican party for someone like you Jeanette, who's a moderate, not a Trump- - I'm not going anywhere.

(laughs) - Okay, but how- - I think we need more moderates in the Republican party, and I think frankly, Joe Biden is the best thing to happen to the Republican party.

If you look what's going on in Washington and the higher taxes, people don't like what's happening with this Democratic party and Republican side.

And I think that's kind of rallying the Republican base.

Look, you know, as a Republican, a lifelong Republican, I don't like to see, you know, some of the things that happened in my party with the Trump rhetoric.

And I think there's a lot of Republicans like me who, you know, are disappointed in that, but you know, I'm not going anywhere, I know a lot of Republicans like me who aren't going anywhere, and I'll go back and, Phil, look, there's moderates like Josh Gottheimer, who feel like there's no room for them in the Democratic party.

- Say that again, I interrupted you.

Democratic members of Congress, part of-I guess they're called the Problem Solvers, actually check out her interview with Congressman Gottheimer.

You're saying he and Ocasio-Cortez can't fit in the same party, is that what you're saying?

- Yeah, I mean, he is getting so beat up for standing up for his constituents and not backing Nancy Pelosi's trillions of dollars in new taxes, because he wants to work with the Problem Solvers Caucus to come up with responsible solutions.

There are very few moderates in Congress right now on the Republican side and the Democratic side.

And I think that frankly has to change.

- Phil, go ahead.

- That's a theme with Rodney Freeland and why he didn't run for reelection.

- As a Republican, moderate, correct?

- Say that again?

- As a Republican moderate in Congress, he said, no, I'm tapping out.

- Correct.

- What do you think that has to do with Trump?

- I think because he realized in his district with what was going on, he couldn't win with the national Trump agenda.

- So Phil, wait a minute.

By the way, there are members of Congress-and if we can, if we have time, we're going to do a second segment with Phil and Jeanette to talk about the broader term implications of this.

But Jeanette and Phil, there are members of Congress who are actually saying right now, particularly Republicans, I'm not running for reelection again, some of whom actually said that Joe Biden won the presidency and they would not stand for the January 6th insurrection, they would not challenge the results of the election.

Some of them are not running, Jeanette and Phil, because they're afraid of violence against themselves or their family.

That's politics in America, Jeanette?

- Yeah.

I mean, look, it's a crazy time and some of them are not, but look, I'm hopeful coming into the midterms.

It's a different world right now.

Trump is not president, Biden is president, he has to own some of these crazy policies, some of these very socialist, very high tax policies.

And I think it's going to be a different mid-term cycle.

Look, we don't know if president Trump is going to run again and in four years I think it's going to be a different ball game.

- Do you want him to run?

- I frankly don't.

I think it's time for a different change in leadership in the Republican party.

You know, I'd like to see some other candidates run, so we'll see.

But I think the midterms look good for Republicans, I think it's going to be a different direction.

I think there's a lot to talk about.

- Phil, (inaudible) - Go ahead.

- This is the big difference, when we were younger, when you walked into a classroom and you said, what do you want to do for a living?

There was a handful of boys and girls who raised their hand and say, I want to be president, I want to be a congressman, I want to get involved.

Right now you don't have that anymore.

It's no longer noble.

It's no longer something that people want to do, and it's to the detriment of society.

We're not getting our best and brightest.

There's not civil discussion.

There's no more-when you served in the assembly, they would all go to that steakhouse, Democrats and Republicans, and they would argue, but they would come together and compromise.

It is going to be the detriment to the country if we can't figure out how to have a civil discussion on politics and get things-we can't get anything done.

- And by the way, we're going to have a second.

- I agree with Phil.

- And you agree with him, but also Jeanette, you were too young to remember, in 1985, when I was in the legislature, as a child, Phil, you have to remind people.

(laughter) It was Pete Lorenzo's in Trenton, I was on the State Finance Committee, the Assembly Finance Committee, Democrats, Republicans, we'd agree, disagree, fight, debate, argue, then go to Lorenzo's at night to have dinner together, and actually socialize and become friendly with each other.

Try that in Washington or Trenton today.

To Phil, to Jeanette, thank you so much for a spirited, but as always civil discussion, we'll be right back right after this.

(grand music) - [Announcer] To watch more State of Affairs with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- Yes, that's right, we got him.

The editor of New Jersey Globe, NJ Globe, is David Wildstein.

Hey, David.

- Hi, Steve, how are you?

- Doing great.

We're going to put up the website as we speak.

Tell us everyone, tell everyone what NJ Globe is.

- The New Jersey Globe concentrates exclusively on political campaigns and government in the state of New Jersey.

And we, we do a laser focus just on that one area.

- Yeah, and by the way, they are one of our media partners at New Jersey Globe.

And by the way, you can check, also check out the NJ Globe Power Hour on 77WABC every Saturday from four to five, right?

- Yes.

- So, here's the thing about you, David.

People know you from a lot of different places.

They hear your name, you Google David Wildstein, politics comes up.

He was, he ran for office in Livingston.

You were the mayor, when?

How old were you?

- I was 22 when I ran for the Council and 25 as mayor.

- That's right.

- That was a very, very long time ago.

37 years ago, I ran.

- Absolutely.

You also look up at the Port Authority Bridge Gate, it will all come up.

- It does.

- But beyond that, David is an encyclopedia of New Jersey politics and government.

As a kid, you were like 12 years old, you got involved in some New Jersey Senate race.

What's this?

The, where's your obsession for politics come into your life?

- Well, you know, it started very early.

I met a state Senator campaigning outside a ShopRite in Livingston.

I was 12 years old.

I thought it seemed pretty, you know, like a lot of fun.

And so I worked on his campaign and after he won, he gave me a job on his Senate staff.

He paid me $100 a year to file bills.

And he used to take me to Trenton.

His name was Jim Wallwork and he was from Essex County.

And he would take me to Trenton, or if he couldn't take me, Tom Kane or Jane Burgio would give me a ride.

And so, so I was a nerd.

I cut middle school to go to Trenton and sit in the caucuses and on the floor and learn about the process.

And I have loved it ever since.

- And by the way, the New Jersey Globe has been incredibly helpful to us in some of our programming where we look for historical photos, archival footage, David, and his team.

I should just say David has.

I don't know where he has a library somewhere.

David, let me ask you this.

Politics for years, you and I were kids.

I was in the Legislature, running at 25.

You were the mayor at 25 in Livingston.

Obviously, our lives changed dramatically, but how much has politics in New Jersey changed dramatically in those years?

- Well, you know, we look at, it's changed.

It's incredible how much it's changed because the, the civility between the two parties, despite disagreements, that's pretty much gone.

And, you know, not just among elected officials, but among voters, too, who take their politics more personally.

I mean, I remember, I remember being a young councilman, you were a young assemblyman and you and I would go out to lunch and we didn't, we didn't agree on every issue.

But we could talk these ideas through.

And I miss that.

I miss that, that back and forth exchange that I think made government better by being able to hear somebody else's differences.

- Do you think we, given the 2020 election, given January 6th, given people's vitriolic rhetoric around the vaccine and Biden's not going to tell me what to do, blah, blah, blah, blah, the whole bit.

Do you think there's a realistic chance that we could ever, if not get back to where we were with civility, but get to a much better place, David?

- I hope so, I hope so.

And look, I mean, you know, as students of history, one of the things that we have seen all the time is we have ebbs and flows throughout history.

And there've been moments in America where things have been, you know, maybe worse than they are today, but they come back and I'm just, I'm just hoping that it's sooner rather than later.

- New Jersey politics, right?

I talk to people about, they say, oh, politics is politics and I'll say, yeah, but New Jersey politics, it's a little different.

What do you mean by New Jersey politics?

You smile as I laugh.

What do you mean when I say, when you say, come on politics in New Jersey is a pretty unique brand?

Go ahead, David.

- Well, you know, it very much is.

And, one of the reasons is that New Jersey has elections all the time and, and even year and odd year and fire commissioner elections in February and some final holdouts.

- School boards.

- School board in April, and some towns have their elections in May.

And you get to the primary and the cycle never stops.

It's sort of, you know, imagine being able to follow a sport, but there's no off season.

You've just got to go all the time and you go, you know, you go from the World Series to spring training the next day, and that's how it is.

And it's one of the things I love about it.

And I love how every, every part of the state is completely different.

If you've seen one county, you've seen one county.

Everything is different, but somehow they all come together.

- By the way, help people understand.

We're a media organization.

Independent, not-for-profit media organization that has to raise money constantly to be on the air with our partners in public broadcasting and other folks that we deal with on other platforms.

Your model, if you will, for what you do, how much of it is the advertising?

'Cause we have to get, they're not sponsors, they're underwriters.

Long story short is how the heck do you run your business?

Because it'd be great if you could just do the work, but that's not enough.

- It would, it would.

And when I, you know, when I first started doing this, I didn't take any advertising at all.

It was just, it just started as a hobby.

And that was, that was 21 years ago.

But now it's, it's all advertising based.

And they're, you know, as you know, a big discussion in the media about paywalls and whether everybody should have access to the same amount of news or whether there's premium stories, that if you want to read it, you have to pay a little bit more or if you want to get- - Yeah, I've noticed some of those sites.

By the way, the Caucus, go on our site, SteveAdubato.org, no paywall, all free.

There it is.

I'm sorry, go ahead, David.

- No, and The New Jersey Globe is the same way.

We made a decision not to do a paywall.

And we're a small company.

It's me, I have a reporter, Joey Fox.

And we have, we have Kevin Sanders that runs the business side, and we have set up a wall.

So, I don't see who the advertisers are on this site until they advertise, until I see the ad up.

But it's, it's hard.

And there's balances all the time between, between the revenue side.

And you know, anybody who pretends that this, that, that people who are in the media are doing it as volunteers because we believe in it, that's just, it's, unfortunately, it's not true.

I mean, I wish it were.

I wish it were the day of Benjamin Franklin, where he had his own little printing press and, and would stand outside on the corner and give out, you know, sheets of his newspaper, but it's not.

So what you have are enormous media conglomerates, and they're for profit business.

And sometimes I criticize them, and sometimes I will criticize newspapers or other mediums for how they're covering the news.

But I do understand that's their right, they got to keep the lights on.

- And the Caucus Educational Corporation and our partners in public broadcasting have to keep the lights on, the cameras going, the team working.

And frankly, half of our time plus is spent on the business side.

Just the way it is.

- It is.

- Because no money, no mission.

You ever hear with that one, David?

- I have, yeah.

- No money.

Hey, listen, check out NJ Globe.

You see New Jersey Globe and put it up there, check out their site.

I'll be actually joining David for the NJ Globe Power Hour on WABC77, WABC from four to five.

We'll be doing a special on the Governor's race.

This will be seen after as well.

Hey, David, I want to thank you for the work you do every day.

We appreciate it.

- Thank you, Steve.

Thanks for having me on.

- You got it.

I'm Steve Adubato, that's David Wildstein.

We'll be right back.

(grand music) - [Announcer] To watch more State of Affairs with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We're now joined by Katie Brennan.

And her chyron may say former campaign volunteer for Phil Murphy for Governor, but you know Katie's name.

You know her likeness.

She's been out there publicly fighting on behalf of victims of sexual harassment, sexual abuse, sexual violence.

She went public in late 2018, when she accused Al Alvarez, who was a Murphy campaign aide, of raping her after a campaign gathering 2017, when she was a volunteer.

Katie beyond all the publicity, beyond the case, beyond the fact that $600,000 of that settlement that was reached with you, you donated to what organization and why?

Let's get that out of the way first.

- Sure.

It's The Waterfront Project.

You can visit them at thewaterfrontproject.org.

They are a nonprofit organization that I am on the board of here in Hudson County.

They provide legal services, as well as, housing counseling to low-income people around Hudson County.

And because everything that I went through, in particular with the legal system, I knew that I, as a very privileged white married woman, who struggled so much to access those resources, it's gotta be either worse for everybody else.

And so I felt very strongly about creating that opportunity for others.

- Thank you for sharing that, Katie.

Katie what is, and there's a whole range of legislative efforts, reform if you will, but without going into the details of the legislation, into the weeds, as they say in politics and government, what is the core, in your view, of you reform efforts?

A, And B, what progress have we made or not?

- We made a ton of progress.

If I can go a little bit out of order.

I think that sometimes when people talk about the me too movement or other things, it's too easy to focus on an individual.

Myself, another, a face that was in the paper, as a flash in the pan.

But behind all of that, there's been an enormous amount of hard work and, kind of, the deep, it's not glitzy, it's not glamorous, behind the scenes work.

And it, it really is a movement.

So I'm confident in the progress that we've made, but do know that there is so, so much more to be done.

The core of the reforms?

When I started out, when I came forward in 2018, that first wall street journal article, it was about prosecutorial reforms.

Because at that point, that's what I had experienced.

Again, I knew that myself, with so many resources and so much access, I knew that these crimes are under-reported, under arrested, under convicted, and still yet I thought that it was important to try.

And so when the prosecutorial case didn't move forward, and I learned firsthand about all the different barriers to receiving justice in these instances, I felt the need to discuss what potential reforms are.

How do we change this?

And so, if you look at that article, it was about what people are doing across the country.

It was subsequent to that article, which in hindsight seems naive, but I had no idea that can of worms that it would open, with the legislative hearings and everything else, that I really learned a lot more about employment practices, employment reforms, campaign reforms.

And so where did all these reforms, these, these pieces of legislation come from?

It very much came from my direct personal experience.

And then as I went forward, I learned that so many others shared my same experiences.

Whether it be the criminal justice system, workplace violence, or politics and campaigns.

- And by the way, that package of bills, some of those bills have passed.

Some of them are still languishing in the legislature.

But I want to ask you this, Katie.

For those who argue that, quote, "the me too movement has gone too far", right?

You say what to them?

- I would, - And they do.

- They do - Mostly men, but some women.

Come on, the pendulum, they're about this pendulum thing.

Is it, we're done with that Now let's get back to normal, whatever that means.

- Right.

- Right.

And I would say, it's not based in facts.

Look at the facts.

One of the bills that we had to pass was about looking at the actual data in prosecutorial cases around sex crimes.

And, as I mentioned a moment ago, we know that, you get your car stolen, you're likely to tell your friends.

Like, "Oh my God, you'll never believe what happened to me."

Not so in these cases.

There is so much shame around it.

It is under-reported, it is under arrested, is under convicted at grossly disproportionate rates.

And so that's, that's one side of things.

But of course, you know, I'm not on some journey to make sure that more people are in jail.

That couldn't be further from the truth.

But we, of course, we want to prevent it in the first place.

But there is a lot of shame around this.

When there was the investigations in the newspaper about misogyny and politics.

When there were the studies.

When there was the people who said, "No, I wouldn't ever report it because look what happened to Katie".

What I say to that is, I have not regretted it for a moment.

Anything.

- You have, you don't?

- No, it has been deeply trying and difficult.

And I mean, at this point so much more of it has been about the trauma after the fact, and going public, and going through the process and, and having that doubt.

But it has not gone too far.

Because at the end of the day, there's still so little accountability.

There's so many people that are more in, on my side of things where they decide it's easier to leave.

Or they're not going to get justice.

Or it's too painful to stay in their job.

And until we can take accountability and admit wrongdoing, which is frankly, what I thought would happen right from the get go, and to this day has not, How would you assess?

And forget about the campaign.

Forget about the election on November 2nd.

This will be seen later, whoever wins, wins.

That's another story.

What would you say, or how would you assess Governor Murphy's quote, handling, of your case, your situation?

Not legally, but as a leader?

- When I came forward and I, in the wall street journal to discuss those prosecutorial reforms, at the time I truly believed that there was not a political aspect to it.

Because I didn't know.

I didn't know everything that had happened behind the scenes.

I didn't know the other side of those conversations that I had had with his leadership team.

I didn't know everything that had gone on in the background.

But, I'll say again, that what so many are asking for, whether it be this or in the me too movement more generally is, do you know how to apologize?

Do you know, - Did the Governor ever apologize to you?

- If you're not holding your own team accountable, if you are not recognizing that the folks around you may or may not represent the state of New Jersey, or that they can't say, "This is where I failed, and we're going to do more."

Then I don't know that you have apologized.

- Katie, we thank you.

Not only for being with us, but way more importantly, for the work that you were doing with so many others.

The work continues, your voice is important, and we wish you and your family all the best.

And thank you for joining us on Public Broadcasting.

- Thank you, Steve.

- I'm Steve Adubato.

That is Katie Brennan.

And we appreciate you watching us, and we'll see you next time.

Thank you.

- [Narrator] State of Affairs with Steve Adubato Is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Holy Name.

Valley Bank.

NJM Insurance Group.

Berkeley College.

Operating Engineers, local 825.

Fedway Associates, Inc. PSE&G.

IBEW Local 102.

And by Community FoodBank of New Jersey.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com, keeping communities informed and connected.

And by ROI-NJ.

- Data shows that many patients have avoided seeking critical health care in the wake of COVID-19 for fear of contracting the virus.

Delaying medical care can have serious consequences, so you should never second guess or ignore your symptoms.

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