Yeah.

Welcome to the Aaron Harbor show.

My guest in part tw of our special two part series.

Alberto Gonzales was the forme United States Attorney General.

Mr.

attorney General, thank you for joining me.

Thanks for having me.

You've had an extraordinary career.

I mean, you were a Supreme Court justice in Texas.

Of course, the U.S.

Attorney general, white House counsel, among other things.

And you were also the former Texas secretary of state?

Yes, I was.

All right, let's let's talk about some of the real, I think, challenging times.

You know, when you were in office 911 and a lot of controversy, about, the expansion of executive powers.

Talk a little bit about that.

And if you think boundaries needed should have been more clearly defined at that time.

We had been attacked by an enemy, and President Bush was, determined that that was not going to happen again and that we needed to hold accountable those responsible after protecting the country from it, from a subsequent attack.

And it is true that the president was was pretty, you know, strenuous in terms of the exercise of presidential power.

And as white House counsel, m job is to circle all the lawyers from state, from justice, from defense, from the NSA.

We would gather in my second floor West Wing office and we would talk about these issues.

And after we thought we had reached a conclusion on that legal analysis of a particular action by the president before he took it, of course, I would turn to the representative of the Department of Justice where whether it was the attorney General, John Ashcroft, or some senior person from the department, and I would say, okay, we may have it, we may have either agreemen or we may have a disagreement.

But the Department of Justice is charged by law to advise the president of the United States.

And you have the final word, because in the end, if we're challenged in court you're going to be defending it.

And so I would rely upon the Department of Justice when I was white House counsel, to give us the final word.

And so everything we did, we tried to make sure that we had legal support for it.

And I would tell the president we had legal support for, you know, detentio at Guantanamo and derogations, the application, Geneva Conventions.

I mean, these were all very serious, consequential decisions.

They all were litigated, the rights of habeas for individuals like Montana, for example.

So they all go up with the Supreme Court.

And, we were gratified that the four major cases that, the court decided when I was white House counsel at the circuit court level, that 11 of the 12 circuit court judges agreed with the administration because they saw the same, the same precedent that we did and by those at the Supreme Court And we lose on all four cases.

This was Hamdi Russell, Boumediene and Hamdan.

And, it's toug when you're advise the president you have the authority to do this, and you have to walk into the Oval Office and say, Mr.

President, we told you you had the, you had the authority to do this.

The courts are telling are saying we don't.

And, you know, President Bush, of course I knew him from our days in Texas.

I was his general counsel as when he was governor of Texas, I know him very well, and his reaction did not surprise me.

His reaction was basically, I mean, he didn't like it.

Of course, but his reaction was basically, well, that's what the courts are for that they're the tell us whether or not we're doing the right thing.

If we are, we go forward.

If we're not, we change course.

That is the way he always dealt with an adverse decision with respect to limitation of his powers.

And think about this.

This is the cour telling the commander in chief and an actual time of war.

This is not the court telling the president who's trying to secure our borders, you know, about having immigration challenges.

We'r in actual war against an enemy that that has killed thousands of Americans.

And the court is is restricting the commander in chief authority.

And the president was very respectful.

He didn't like it.

But, I really have always admired his, decision to respect the rule of law to, of course, Bush 43.

George W, this is George W Bush.

That also, I think, says something incredibly positiv about the American system, too.

No question, no question about it.

The rule of law is so critical to our democracy.

It is what makes America great.

From my perspective.

And, I think we need to have, a president that respect the rule of law and understands how important it is and that sometimes, the result is one that you may not like, but nonetheless, yo you find a different way to, to in the cases that I just mentioned, you find a different way to protect our country, which he did There was no subsequent attack.

And so we did our jo consistent with the rule of law.

When you look back and the criticism you got for the torture memos and, when you look at the list of acts that, you know, were on the approved lis at that time, do you today think that those kind of techniques are effective?

Both Mik Hayden, who was head of the CIA, and my gues on the show, and Mike Mukasey, who was the attorney genera after me, testified under oath that they were effective and that they and that we did receive information that help protect America.

So I can only go on what what they've said under oath that that they were effective.

I'm asked this question often about, you know, my thoughts about this.

President Bush was clear to me in the beginning, we're not going to engage in torture.

Very, very clear.

And that was communicated to everyone in, in the circle that I was operating in terms of the lawyers from state, defense, NSA, CIA, etc.. And so they understood that was it.

We were not going to gauge and torture.

And so what we got was were legal opinion from the Department of Justice as t what would what we could do to, gather information, which at the time was the most important, important currency in the wa against terror is information.

What?

I like to have been submitted to those kinds of things now.

But but we had the Department of Justic looking at the torture statute, looking at, what the CIA recommended would be effective in giving information and reaching a conclusion that this could be done consistent with the law, consistent with the law?

Not what?

Not a question of whether or not this is a good idea or a bad idea.

What can the law allow?

And that was it.

My charge is white House counsel is to say, Mr.

President, this is what the lawyers of the Department of Justice, are saying.

We we can do consistent with the law.

Looking back, one of the things that I, that I fought myself and I think others, others as well, is tha it's one thing to be sitting it and something like this and making a decision as to what kind of conduct could be, could be authorized and combined.

So it would be limited in scope as opposed to someone in Guantanamo, in a dark room with someone in front of them who we know has information about a pending attack.

Are you really going to stop at the limit provided to you by the lawyers?

And I think sometimes that that just didn't happen.

And and so we probably were not as realistic about this whole situatio as we probably should have been.

That's one thing that I, that I wonder about whether or not I should have been and others should have been more careful in thinking about the fact that, okay, yes, we're going to provide this person a medical doctor.

He's going to undergo a psychological test.

So we know that we're not going to, he's not going to suffer a long term mental damage.

So we're going to provide protections for him.

We have a special program for him, but that that probably tha wasn't enough, quite honestly.

What about the consideration that if we're, deploying these kind of techniques, it doesn't that give, you know, other countries who are our enemies, who may capture our people, not only the green light to do the same things, but to justify the next level of things.

Yeah.

And I think the the response that we would have given at the time was, well, if you give us the same safeguards, if you have a doctor present and you don't beat this person, you're not using electric shocks and things of that nature.

If you're just doing the things that we talked about, the facial hole collar, grab it.

But those ar the things you're doing as well.

We're going to be okay with that.

But of course, I don't think other countries would have provided the same level of safeguards.

But it is true.

One of the worries Colin Powell, Secretary of State, former chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff, very concerned about what this would allow othe countries to do to our soldiers.

And we had we have a great number of soldiers stationed around the world.

Yeah.

And I was honored to have General Powell on the show.

Just, extraordinary, extraordinary leader.

You certainly have were criticized as AG for, you know, there were claims that you politicized, that office, do you feel any of those kinds of criticisms were justified?

Probably more in terms of what the white House wanted you to do, or bending the pressure from the white?

I think the only criticism about politicizing the Department of Justic related to the removal of U.S.

attorneys who had served their ful four year terms and who serve at the pleasure of the president.

And many people wondered, what's all the what's going on here?

Why all the I think well I think the mistakes it was made is that we simply fail to appreciate that because Democrats took control of the Senate, that there would be more oversight, more scrutiny about the work of not just me, but everybody els within the Bush administration.

I have no qualms at al about what we did with respect to the U.S.

attorneys.

Well, they serv at the pleasure of the president and would serve their four year term.

And the truth the matter is the inspector general, the Department of Justice did a full investigation and concluded, there's nothing here.

And so sometimes in Washington, you're not treated fairly.

I hate saying I was treated unfairly, but I think this facility.

Tell me about the decision process you went through whe you decided to resign in 2007.

What wha what balancing did you do there?

The white House was hearing that perhaps the the Democrats were going to, perhaps initiate impeachment proceedings.

President Bush did not want to see me go through that, quite frankly.

And so decision was made tha I should then I should sit down.

It was hard, a hard decision to make.

But at the end, yeah, I feel like that served our country well.

And I'm proud of my service where we perfect.

No one's ever perfect in these jobs.

You can't imagine how difficult these decisions are.

And you're going to make mistakes.

I promise you every president makes mistakes.

Cabinet secretary, certainly the ag.

You're going to make mistakes.

Hopefully minimize those mistakes.

You learn from those mistakes and you move on.

Because the next big, tough decision is waiting right outside the door, and you have to move on.

So, speaking of impeachment, it seems that in the past, including the era you were in, and you should correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that deciding to to move along that track to impeach someone was a really significant decision.

My sense is today is that the the Congress in particular, looks at impeachment as a way to say we're just not happy with what you're doing.

And am I wrong about that?

Or, you know, are we not taking that process seriously?

And, I don't think it's taken seriously because, it's one thing to impeach someone.

It's another thing to remove them.

The Senate just isn't interested in removing individuals for the most part, unless there are serious crimes committed, for example.

But I agree with you that impeachment is bandied about as just a way to try to threaten someone.

Try to scare someone.

If you had to take back one, decision that you made as AG, well, what would it be?

Up and rising Republicans, or people of their party and and so that was that's what happened here, lik just every other administration.

And the second term is people that were going to change, changes be made with respect to US attorneys.

And so I was part of that because I of course, I was the attorney general.

And so I was involved in some of those discussions and some of those decisions.

But that probably for me, you know it caused the most controversy at the Department of Justice suggesting that I perhaps the pillow the size of department.

To me, it's become fairly evident that when it comes to civic education, the American people have not had a lot of discussion of of the concept of the rule of law and what that means.

And now what we've seen because of that void is an argument being made that, well, a president was elected to get certain things done, and the people want these things done, and therefore, whatever he does to get those things done is okay.

Yeah I'm not sure I agree with that.

I think the people support the objective.

I don't think that necessarily means that they support the method of achieving that objective.

Many Americans are happy about the notion we're going to secure the borders.

Okay No one wants criminals in here.

But how it's being done, I think there are a lot of peopl that have concerns about that.

And so I think, it's more than just having agreemen with the American public about what it is that the presiden needs to do to keep us all safe.

And I'm sure that we have an opportunity that, but there is I think, vast disagreement about how how it can be accomplished.

I'm not saying the American people, are unanimous in in believing that whatever, the president does is okay as long as it's to achieve a particular goal.

I'm just arguing that the president and his staff, his supporters, have been consistently taking that position, that the courts should not get in the way because this is what he was elected to do.

No, that is wrong.

The president is again, the president is elected to do certain things.

Hopefully the American public has an expectation that he would do that.

But I would like to think they have the expectation that he do i consistent with the rule of law.

The fact that he's electe president doesn't mean that he he can ignore the law.

Certainly, a lot of decisions are being made at the Supreme Court level of of, what the law ultimately is.

And I think there are many who look at precedent and look at the law and had or have high hopes that the Supreme Court would, be a governor, a president who believes he's entitled to do whatever he wants to do.

The actions of the president have to be consistent with the Constitution.

And if the court says you cannot do something and, the president does it, th president is acting in violation of the Constitution, and that would be grounds for impeachment as to whether or not this Congress and the Senate would, in fact engage in that would remain to be seen.

But, it's very, very important that the president stays within within his line.

Again, I don't think the American public, the American people, elected this president to achieve certain objectives no matter how those objectives can be achieved.

Sometimes things cannot be achieved because it infringes upon constitutional right and constitutional limitations.

I want to jump to a few personal issues because you have been an extraordinary model.

I mean, you're the first Hispanic, attorney general in the history of the nation, which is an extraordinary achievement.

It may also be a commentary o how long it took to get there.

Everything that's the talk about that, because so many people, look up to you.

When people talk to me abou that, I always try to emphasize, you know, there is no brown justice, there's no white justice, there's no black justice.

There is just justice.

And my job as the attorney general is to be the attorney general for all the American people.

Having said that, I am mindfu because I've had people tell me after my appointment, Hispanic that, you know people say, my grandfather cried when he heard that you had been appointed attorney general.

I mean, that's that's kind of that's cool.

It makes me sit up straighter.

But it also puts a burden on me, like, okay, let's not mess this up.

You know, I don't want to be th last Hispanic attorney general.

I've got to do a good job for the American people, fo the president that nominated me.

And but also because of my other Hispanics.

Yeah.

A good friend of mine was a US senator at the time of your nomination, and he was a Democrat.

And you were a Republican nominee, as it were, from our I mean, a Republican president.

And I know he he was very, excited, and supportive of your nomination by Ken Salazar.

Well, Ken Salazar of, introduced me at my confirmation hearing.

And so I was very grateful for that.

He wa a, I think, a freshman senator.

And so that, I mean, there might have been political implications for him and doing so.

So I was very gratefu that he was willing to do that.

When you talk to people, especially young people, about your journey, were there any barriers that you highlighted or special, challenges that, that you had that you could use as an example that, you know, it may be tougher at certain times, but you can surmount them.

I mean, I'll talk about the fact that, you know, come from parents, that, it's that sixth grade education.

Second grade education.

Dad was a construction worker who had an eight kids, eight kids in the family.

We didn't have hot running water the entire time.

I lived at home.

And when I graduated high school, no one really talked to me.

I went to college.

So I enlisted in the Air Force and in, a couple years in Colorado, as I recall.

Yeah.

In fact, it's interesting, one of the lessons I learned from my dad was always do the hard thing first, always do the hard thing first, son.

And so my first duty assignment was Key West, Florida.

But because of the job that I had in the Air Force, I knew at some point during my four year enlistment I would receive a remote assignment somewhere in the world.

Well, I wanted to get that remote assignment over with first.

And so I turned down Key West.

I got stationed at Fort Yukon, Alaska, north of the Arctic Circle for a year.

What?

That what a contrast.

No.

Okay.

But because of that, there it there at Fort Yukon, where two Air Force Academy graduates and they saw something in me and encouraged me to get an appointment to the academy, which I did.

And if I hadn't, if I had not chosen to go to to give up Key West I may never have gone to college so that those, circumstances, I think, really contributed to my success.

Go to the Air Force Academy.

My eyes turned bac and I wanted to be a pilot, and, so I transferred to Rice University, a small private school in Houston.

And the reason I chose rice, and I want to apply to one school after my second year at the academy is because when I was a boy, 15 and 16 years old, I used to sell soft drinks at Rice University football games, and I would watch the students go back to their dorms after the game and I would dream about, gosh, how cool will it be?

Would it be to be a student at rice?

So I applied to rice, got accepted, and, you know then I got to go to Harvard and, so it's it's really it's really a pretty good story.

What advice do you give young people, especially young people, dream big, as big as you can.

Don't be uncomfortable on it because you think, oh, that's silly, I can't.

I'll never achieve that.

You just don't know.

I didn't get these opportunities simply because, you know, I look a certain way or talk a certain way.

I was prepared.

So when Bush is looking for a general counsel when he's governor of Texas, I didn't know him.

You know, he ask Harriet Miers is his personal lawyer.

Harriet, I need a lawyer to be my general counsel.

You know anybody?

And she said, I know somebody.

And he said he might be a good general counsel.

So you just never know when you meet people that that will give you, give you help in terms of achieving opportunities.

I'd love to ask yo some questions about leadership.

Okay.

What what makes for great leadership?

I think about what makes a great president because first and foremost, I think the president is or is has got to be a leader in this country.

And I look for things like, wisdom that comes from experienc coming from success and failure.

And that's how people, have wisdom, vision, particularly a positive vision.

One of the things I always admired about Barack Obama was his positive vision for America.

Americans respond to that.

And I think someone who can say, come with me.

I've been on the other side of the mountain.

I know what's possible in this great country.

The journey is going to be difficult.

But if you come with me I'll take you to a better place so that positive vision, I think, is very important in a leader.

Decision maker, you've got to be able to make decisions quickly.

One of the things I really admired by President Bush, he was a decision maker.

He would get an information briefing, books.

He would he would digest them and then make a decision.

And then and he would do it quickly and then move on because he you just don't have time to second guess yourself to wonder if you're going to be criticized.

You got to make a decision and move on.

Integrity, I think, is the most important thing.

And any leader, someone that you can trust, will not abuse the power that comes with, being holding positions of leadership, that you're not going to use it for personal political gain.

You do it for the public good, for the organization.

And, so I think integrity, I think, was Nathan Hale.

One of my favorite quotes from Nathan Hale was, reputation is what your friends and others think about you.

Character is what only God and the angels know about you and it's true character.

Sometimes it's hard to measure, sometimes it's hard to see.

But it's vitally important, I think, in a leader to have to have strong character How about teaching leadership?

You know, as a dean, having taught in other capacities, can you teach leadership?

What I do, I talk t my students about the qualities, you know, about leadership.

So you can teach it.

I'm not so sure you can make a leader other than giving them the opportunity to exercise, leadership to to to make decisions.

And under difficult circumstances.

To to be able to build a team.

I think that's also very, very important to to be able to be willing to do the hard thing without expecting your subordinates to do the hard thing, and yo just kind of stand by and watch.

I think that's something that leadership by example I think is very, very important and very effective.

How would you contrast the leadership skills of the two Bush presidents, George H.W.

Bush and George W Bush?

One of the stories that I sometimes tell is on election night of the second election, when when Bush 43 was running against John Kerry for reelection, his dad I was white House counsel at the time.

His dad was walking to the West Wing and came into my office and sat down on the couch, and he was worried at at that point in time, he was worried his son was going to lose the election.

At that point in time.

He was a father.

He wasn't the former president.

He was just he was just like any other dad, just worried that his son George was gonna lose the election.

And so, I think that I think a lot of the, the skills that George had really came from his father and just decency and respect for other people.

These are things I really admired about George W, and I know he got all of that from from his, from his dad.

The other thing that was, I would just, close with Jeb was lot had the personality of 41, 43.

Had the personality of his mother, Barbara.

He was outgoing.

He, you know, he he liked to jokes.

Tell jokes.

He was very, very, extroverted.

And the thing is interesting.

I'm.

I'm pretty introverted, but somehow he's a son of a president.

I'm a son of a construction worker.

But somehow we work together.

Well, and, it was one of the great experiences of my life.

If there were one thin you would like all Americans to know what would it be?

That America is the greatest country on the face of the Earth.

But there's no guarantee that America, that the experiment of America is going to last forever without the dedication of its people.

All right, Mr.

Attorney General, thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

That was former U.S.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

Please remember, this is part two of our special two part series with the Attorney General.

Make sure you watch part one.

I'm Erin Harbor.

Thanks for watching.

Us.

I'm Erin, host of the Aaron Harbor show.

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