Funding for New Mexico in Focus is provided by Viewers Like You >> Nash: This week on New Mexico in Focus Meet the new boss, well, bosses at the Albuquerque Police Department.

>> Bujanda: Culture change takes a long time to really kind of seed, and I think has to come from the top down and also from the down up.

>> Barker: We are a better department because of the work we did to get out of the consent decree.

>> Nash: And the ACLU weighs in on the future and the past.

Almost a year after APD walked out of the federal court with a clean bill of health.

New Mexico InFocus starts now.

Thanks for joining us.

I'm Nash Jones.

This week, we are taking a deep dive into new public safety leadership at the city of Albuquerque.

Mayor Tim Keller has appointed a new chief of police after what he describes as a months long national search.

And as was the case with his previous two appointments, he went with the person serving in the interim chief role while the search played out.

This round That is Cecily Barker, who has spent more than 20 years on the force and is the first woman to hold the position.

But Keller didn't stop there.

In the same breath, he also brought back the long dormant role of public safety director, which will oversee Chief Barker and APD, along with Albuquerque Fire Rescue and the newish Albuquerque Community Safety Department.

He named longtime special agent in charge of the Albuquerque FBI office, Raul Bujanda, to that job.

Now, though, both still await City Council confirmation later this month.

Tonight we are going to sit with Bujanda and Barker to get to know them, their priorities, and explore what the future of public safety in the state's largest city might look like.

Under their leadership.

Now, to help put those conversations in context and get a better understanding of persistent community concerns about APD culture following an 11 year federal mandated reform effort and the city's response to a growing homeless population.

We are going to check in with Daniel Williams of the American Civil Liberties Union of New Mexico to get his perspective on the appointments.

But first, let's jump into part one of my interview with newly appointed Police Chief Cecily Barker.

>> Nash: Chief Barker, thanks so much for your time.

>> Barker: Of course.

>> Nash: So you've been interim since the beginning of the year, but now, pending City council confirmation, you are the permanent police chief of the Albuquerque Police Department.

What changes now in terms of latitude or freedom in your role?

>> Barker: I think it's, you know, being in the permanent role.

I have the opportunity, like, as an interim mayor gave me the opportunity to review my staffing and make some changes.

But now, I'll have that opportunity to look even broader and wider.

Take a look at what changes need to be made, if any.

And then just making those, final decisions.

>> Nash: You mentioned the staffing changes.

You did do some shaking up, in the interim role.

You got rid of a dozen executive positions back in early January in your first week.

Why was that such an early priority for you?

>> Barker: You know, we had, several positions within the department that came as a part of the consent decree.

And so a lot of that was oversight that was just no longer needed.

Some of those positions were not currently filled, and we didn't need a reason to, you know, bring them back.

>> Nash: And so you say that the positions weren't really needed anymore once the consent decree was no longer, enacted.

Did that in some ways declare kind of a mission accomplished?

>> Barker: I have made it clear, both within the department and outside of the department, we are out of the consent decree, but that those accountability measures are still very important to me and our police department.

>> Nash: And you have the staffing at the higher levels to get that done.

>> Barker: Yes.

>> Nash: Okay.

Now, you served as deputy chief, as you mentioned, under former Chief Harold Medina, beginning in 2021.

Some of his detractors have called you a Medina loyalist.

What is your reaction to that?

>> Barker: You know, I, I worked for Chief Medina when I first came on the department.

He was my sergeant.

And I worked for him, I think a year or two.

Didn't really speak to him between that time.

You know, we see each other in passing and stuff like that.

One thing I can say about my relationship with him is just.

I was always a worker.

And Chief Medina would tell you this, too.

We're not friends.

Outside of the department.

We have a professional working relationship.

I think you can talk to officers within the department and people outside.

And they would all agree that we have different personalities.

I respect him very much as a supervisor and what he did for our police department.

But I bring a different perspective.

>> Nash: What are those different perspectives that you bring?

So he you know, where he came up through the department was through, property crimes and auto theft.

He's talked a lot about that.

I have a very diverse background.

I worked field services, as a patrol officer for most of my career in uniform.

And then as a supervisor, I worked in violent crimes at the Family Advocacy Center, a very victim oriented purpose, and driven.

I also worked at the crime lab.

And so I have a broader, perspective of the department.

Not to say that he didn't, but I also just approach things differently as a leader.

>> Nash: And how does that broader perspective, how is it going to show up?

How will Albuquerque residents see it show up or, in any, any policy changes that they can expect or even just your approach to the work?

>> Barker: I've made some changes as far as, just accountability.

Looking at Duke City Stat.

It's a meeting we have once a week.

It's very crime driven.

But we're going to put, reports back into that, accountability measures for the area commanders.

And so that's going to include, you know, looking at misconduct violations by area command and squad just to see specifically if we have any trends, like with a specific supervisor or what that might look like.

>> Nash: Okay.

And, you've been working your way up at APD for over two decades.

This was the department that you started at, and you were the internal candidate for this national, search for the next chief.

Some pro-reform folks were hoping to see an outside candidate with a fresh perspective come in.

What would you say to them about why you're the right fit as an internal candidate?

>> Barker: As an internal candidate coming up through the ranks.

I bring like that knowledge right, from every level.

I was here before we were under consent decree.

I was here during a consent decree, and I am here after the consent decree.

And I think that's really important knowledge that someone coming in from the outside wouldn't have.

I also know the culture of our police department and you know what needs to be addressed.

I'm not saying that someone couldn't come in from the outside and be successful, but I do think that I have an advantage.

>> Nash: The DOJ, the Department of Justice, during that investigation that led to the consent decree, identified a culture of aggression in APD.

You mentioned you were at APD before the consent decree was in place in those before times, did you see policing that bothered you?

>> Barker: I did, I did.

And I think when I became a supervisor, I made it very clear, that I was going to be visible and hold people accountable.

I also saw policing that was done right.

I remember when the, independent monitors came and they were doing ride alongs, and I told my officers, just do what you would normally do.

Don't act any different.

Like they need to see how we treat people as a department and how, you know, how we act.

But, you know, historically, I can look at different officer involved shootings and see things that we could have done better.

And that's what we're going to continue to do is, you know, monitor what our use of force policy looks like, how we can continue to advance that and make things better as a department.

>> Nash: You have a relative on the police force, Jeff Bloodworth, who shot and killed Vincent Wood, a black man with a knife back in 2013.

How did going through that experience impact how you viewed, APD, police shootings and DOJ oversight, for that matter?

>> Barker: That's a really good question.

You know, what I remember about one of those specific shootings is, the police chief at the time coming up.

And the only question that he asked, my brother, because I was the, buddy officer at the time, was was your camera on?

Now, I will tell you, as, a supervisor and as a leader in police reform, I specifically, worked on the the OBRD policy.

So the camera policy.

And I think it is 100% beneficial, and I have always been about that.

But when you have an officer who's involved in an incident like that, that can't be the only question that is asked.

You know, an officer has to do what they can to protect themselves and the community.

And so that's something that's always stuck out in my mind.

I want my officers to know that I'm there for them.

Like policy is important.

Transparency is important.

What we do is very important.

But we also have to remember that there's a human side to this as well.

Right?

And so I want my officers to know that I'm there to support them.

So those are just a couple of things that, you know, come to my mind when I think about the shooting that he was involved in.

>> Nash: And now, what is your message to the officers and the police union who didn't see the consent decree as something that should have been entered in into the first place or didn't see the results as what they had hoped that they might turn out to be.

>> Barker: I have always said that, you know, we have room to do better, and we always will.

Right.

We always have to look at that.

I have had very candid conversations with officers who have said, like, there wasn't a reason for the DOJ to be here or, you know, they put us in a bad place.

We can always do better.

And I think that we are a much stronger, transparent, department since the DOJ came here.

You know, I will put us up against any other department in the state, in the country, and we're not perfect.

But you're going to see more professionalism, more de-escalation.

When you watch OBRD, in comparison to other agencies.

>> Nash: And one of your responsibilities as the police chief is to build morale.

It's in the job description.

Where is morale on the force today?

And how will you go about building it up further?

>> Barker: I think our morale is in a very good place.

Coming out of the consent decree, has increased that, mostly because it's a success story.

Right.

And you will have people who, you know, again, we're not perfect.

I've said that several times, you know, just sitting here today.

But coming out of that was a huge challenge.

And it's something that we were successful in doing that you don't see other agencies do.

I also think our department is getting back to a culture of teamwork.

You know, there used to be a time where it was a bureau against bureau.

So, like, field services against the Detective bureau, just, you know, who was doing what.

And we're really trying to bring back that team mentality.

>> Nash: Well, Morale is, one thing.

Accountability is another.

It's a term that you've already used several times tonight.

What does, accountability look like moving forward, following the consent decree?

>> Barker: Accountability is just ensuring that people know that they're going to be, you know, held responsible for any misconduct that they do, reviewing policy and making sure that we have the right, procedures in place.

You know, like we've been talking about the consent decree is gone, but that does not mean that we don't, you know, we're not going to change our policies as far as holding people accountable.

>> Nash: How do you ensure that the systems that the consent decree put in place are strong?

>> Barker: So we have analysts within our police department, and those scorecards are going to tell us we're going to use data to show, you know, again, where those trends are identifying them.

And then addressing them each week.

Even in our executive meetings, you know, we look at the area commands where uses of force are happening and then talk about, okay, what is the reason?

You know, a specific area commander, location, is that team doing strictly proactive work.

So does that explain, you know, they have more contacts than the average officer.

And now we're talking about all of these systems that are now in place, the accountability structures that exist for you to be able to employ.

Yet Albuquerque still ranks as the second highest in the nation for police killings by population, a rate of 11 per 1 million residents, with black people killed at four times the rate of white people in the city.

How can that be, if the reform effort was as successful as you're saying?

>> Barker: I absolutely, hear what you're saying, and I understand you know, where the community comes from when that's concerning.

What I can say about the, officer involved shootings that we have had, specifically to last year, ten of the 11 fatalities, those individuals all had, some type of narcotic in their, in their system, and they have weapons.

We do review all of our officer involved shootings.

So we have the force review board that, looks at that and then, the multi-agency task force.

And so there are accountability measures in place to ensure that they are, justified or fall within policy.

>> Nash: But I imagine, of course, you want to see fewer.

>> Barker: Absolutely.

Yes.

>> Nash: Officers killing, residents here.

How do you work to see these fewer shootings, regardless of whether they're deemed constitutional?

>> Barker: I mean, first things first, I'm going to say, like, the number one thing is I want an officer to go home safe.

But we have worked on and will continue to work on our de-escalation, not only policy, but training, making sure that our officers are doing everything they can to prevent something like this.

>> Nash: Chief Barker, thank you so much.

I'm gonna ask you to stick around with us.

We got a few more questions.

>> Barker: All right.

Sounds great.

>> Nash: Thanks.

>> Williams: I think what still remains to be seen is that piece about culture change.

Has the fundamental culture has the fundamental approach to what it means to create and defend community safety change at APD.

>> Nash: Stay with us for that conversation with Daniel Williams of the ACLU of New Mexico.

In about ten minutes, along with the second half of my interview with Chief Barker.

There has never been a public safety director during Mayor Tim Keller's three terms in office.

The last time that position was filled was 15 years ago, under former Mayor Richard Berry.

And the man who held that job is someone surely familiar to you, though maybe for a different reason.

Darren White, who lost the mayor's race to Keller last year, was in that role from late 2009 till 2011.

Now on the campaign trail, Mayor Keller harangued white about his performance, saying his policies led to the Department of Justice finding a pattern of excessive force at the police department.

Now, clearly, as Keller dusts off that role at the city, he has faith that his handpicked choice, retired FBI agent Raul Bujanda, will do things a little differently.

What his approach will be and what informs it, why this position is even needed after all these years is a big piece of what I wanted to talk to.

Bujanda about.

So here's the first part of our conversation.

>> Nash: Director Bujanda thank you so much for joining us.

>> Bujanda: Well, thanks.

Thanks for having us.

>> Nash: So you retired last year from the FBI after more than two decades there.

Why come out of retirement for this position at the city?

>> Bujanda: Well, I think, you know, starting from the get go, I don't think I was had the law enforcement work out of my system yet.

It was one of those things that I it was just the time that it was the right time at that moment.

But it was rushed.

And, and then when you're on the sidelines and you know, you're rooting for the people that are doing the day, day to day work and and they're great, right?

They're great professionals because, you knew them, you're just just day before you were standing next to them and now you're just watching them do all the great things.

And, and I have to be honest, I missed that.

I just missed it.

>> Nash: And you say the retirement was a bit rushed.

Did, President Trump retaking the White House Kash Patel, becoming the head of the FBI have anything to do with your timing?

>> Bujanda: Not necessarily what it was as I saw a lot of priorities change.

When you're the head of a of an office like here in New Mexico, where you cover the whole state of New Mexico, not just Albuquerque.

There's certain things that you consider to be important.

If you look at what the FBI has been known for over decades, it's it's international terrorism after 9/11.

It's, public corruption ever since inception and civil rights.

And when you start seeing that different priorities are coming down the pike.

I knew that it was a time >> Nash: where those priorities dictated by the new administration, >> Bujanda: Definitely the new director.

>> Nash: Okay and now, Mayor Keller has resurrected this position that you've just taken, the public safety director, after about 15 years of it being vacant.

If it was vacant all of this time, why is it necessary?

And maybe more specifically now.

>> Bujanda: So I think, you know you see everything that's been going on, and we had some investigations and we were working closely with APD, and I'm just not talking about the investigations we had working against APD.

And on the on the when we're talking about DWI and other types of investigations.

It was more like we were working cases together.

And there was always, a fondness and anything that always is always happening.

It seemed like Albuquerque always attracts that attention, whether it's good or bad.

And, so I got to see and work with the men and women of the of the APD.

FBI work very closely.

And so it was one of those things that I think that I always grew a fondness for it.

Now, as to why this position in this role, it, I think it's an opportunity to let the chiefs be chiefs, let them actually do the job that the they're they're intended to do, that they were hired to do.

In the it's a leadership that we have in place that's phenomenal.

Like they are some phenomenal chiefs that we have working.

>> Nash: So why do they need somebody above them coordinating in this.

>> Bujanda: You allways need someone to kind of deflect all the politics they go behind, all the policy that goes because we need them to be focused so they can go and build the trust.

And my job is to make sure that I'm taking away all those barriers, all those obstacles that they're kind of coming into on a daily basis, so they can be what they need to be.

Chiefs.

>> Nash: Let chiefs be chiefs.

Sounds like something that maybe the rank and file or the departments overall would be glad to hear.

But I'm wondering, have you heard from, Albuquerque Police Department officers about how they feel about this role, becoming a new in you specifically taking it on?

>> Bujanda: So you, you know, I've had those friendships for for quite a while, right?

I've been I was here I've been here for going on five years.

So I have a lot of friends that reached out to me when they heard that, some that I talked to during the process and all the feedback that I received has been positive.

And I'm not just saying this because of my friends.

Some of these are my I would have considered or, you know, critics along the way.

They were harsh when I was in a different role in their harsh.

in this role now.

And they kind of see the benefit for that because it gives them a chance to to start focusing on the things that we need to focus on.

And it's not just trust within the department is trust with our community.

>> Nash: And so you haven't heard anything, any pushback or criticism of this role coming back?

>> Bujanda: I mean, I hear the questions that people have, like, why now?

Right?

Why is it that we're doing this position now?

And, I can really answer as to the period as to why now, in this specific time?

They've always had a great relationship with the mayor.

We've always had worked things well together.

When it comes to joint investigations and, an opportunity to go back and work with them and actually continue to moving.

>> Nash: And he said he wanted to fill this position but hadn't because you weren't available, basically.

>> Bujanda: Well, we want to make sure that he always, you know, when it comes to law enforcement across the board when it comes to public safety anywhere, it's all about personality and the wrong personality can really break things.

The right personality can make things that much better.

All right.

>> Nash: Well, speaking of that, and the last person to hold this job was Darren White, the former Bernalillo County sheriff.

He also ran against Tim Keller for mayor just last year.

And during that campaign, we heard a lot of criticism from the mayor, about Darren White's performance in this role.

He called him a failure in the role.

He called his policies reckless.

He said that his performance in the role, in fact, led to the DOJ's findings of excessive use of force.

That led him to the consent decree.

So how specifically will you approach this role differently than Darren White did?

>> Bujanda: So I wasn't here during that time frame.

So I can't really speak to what it is that he did or didn't do.

When I'm talking about Mister Darren White, all I can say is what I can do is I bring what my background and my experiences bring, which is overall accountability.

And, and I think that's always important when it comes to looking at public safety in general.

You want to make sure that the public servants are accountable to the to the community and to city council and to the mayor's office, to making sure that everyone's doing the right things in the right way.

>> Nash: Well, you worked with APD to get into compliance with the Department of Justice consent decree when you were at the FBI.

That just ended last year.

How did you feel about that timing?

Was APD ready for the consent decree to end?

>> Bujanda: Oh, yeah, most definitely.

I think, what I saw during my time frame when I was here, they were already in the consent decree when I got here was that they were very, strict on themselves.

Right.

So they wanted to make sure that they were going above and beyond to make sure that they met the requirements of the DOJ.

So, yes, they were ready.

I think they were more than ready.

And, and I think it was a good time to transition as well.

Chief.

Chief.

Cecily, and she's going to be amazing.

She really is, only because she looks at things in a different way.

Chief Medina was needed to kind of get everyone to that point, and she's going to continue taking that to the next level.

>> Nash: We're going to hear from her tonight as well.

And, well, we're now a year out from when the consent decree ended has have the reforms that you say were in place.

They were ready for the consent decree to end.

Have they held up over this year as far as from your perspective >> Bujanda: from the outside looking in?

Yes.

But I'm going to be, you know, diving into this to make sure that it's not only have we done all that we need to do, you know, there's more to do than get it done.

>> Nash: Do you feel like a culture change happened, like a deep seated cultural cultural change?

at APD?

>> Bujanda: Culture change takes a long time to really kind of see it, and I think has to come from the top down and also from the down up, because you want to make sure that everyone is actually getting that message.

>> Nash: Well, under your leadership, what might accountability look like?

And, what are you looking for in terms of any potential kind of slippage back into old ways?

>> Bujanda: So accountability is daily thing.

It's not just something that you think about when you do our training or when someone wants to talk about it.

It's something that you're doing on a daily basis.

So we're going to change that culture that you talked about by really getting to the officers from day one, when they're still being trainees in the academy and letting them know this is what you're getting into.

And it's a high standard.

And if you don't meet that standard, it might not be the job for you.

And also reminding our folks that have been doing the job for a long time that this is who we are.

Every single encounter that we have with every citizen out there has to be positive, because that one negative will drive us down.

>> Nash: Okay.

How do you how do you enforce that?

>> Bujanda: It's, it's by being transparent and talking to people and actually letting them know that you care about it.

And at the same time holding people accountable.

And that's the hardest part.

>> Nash: Well, as a special agent in charge at the Albuquerque FBI office, you investigated APD, right?

So you were supporting them and getting into compliance with the DOJ agreement.

We also investigated them surrounding the DWI corruption scandal, where, APD officers among officers and other law enforcement agencies were taking bribes, in order to get DWI cases dismissed from that work.

Are you privy to information about officers at APD that weren't charged, that you now have that knowledge and are coming in and overseeing that?

>> Bujanda: So everything that we would work and, you know, I've been away for about a year.

All those investigations were tied up when I left.

Not to say that that investigation, as I continue because it has.

But those individuals and names I don't know.

>> Nash: So there weren't open cases when you left the FBI, there were pending cases which have now been, you know, come to fruition.

>> Nash: Okay.

So there's no information that you're bringing in, to this role that would implicate or affect your knowledge of these officers that are on the ground that haven't been charged to date.

>> Bujanda: But, you know, we're always going to look at those practices and policies that were put in place to make sure that these things didn't happen again, that I will be looking out for.

>> Nash: How do you use or not use the information that you garnered at the FBI about APD as you come into this role?

>> Bujanda: Well, it's one of those things that everything that you do from day one, right, when it comes to law enforcement, is something that's going to make you that much better.

And I am going to look at everything that it is that we did before to make sure that those things aren't happening.

If there's any of those loopholes that were happening before that were allowing officers to do things they weren't supposed to be doing, I'm going to close them.

>> Nash: are you aware of where they are?

>> Bujanda: I am, yeah, I am.

>> Nash: So you mentioned being aware of loopholes, that you can pinpoint when you come into this role in APD and help close what are the loopholes that you're aware of.

>> Bujanda: So there's just different things.

It was just like some practices that we were doing.

I think right now we have a lot of technology that's in place that's going to be able to help us along the way, along the way.

And some of it just had to do with, just a culture that just accepted things that weren't being done in the right way and making sure that people know exactly that we're going to come back and check to make sure that people are being held accountable.

>> Nash: Yeah.

How specifically do you close them?

>> Bujanda: Well, there's a lot of things that we can do, but one of them has to do with looking at making sure when things are being entered, when it comes to reports, when it comes to evidence that everything is done properly.

>> Nash: Director Bujanda, I'm going to ask you to stick around and we'll continue this conversation here in a moment, >> Bujanda: Okay Thanks.

Stay with us for more from Public Safety Director Bujanda Later in the show, along with newly appointed Police Chief Cecily Barker.

Like most ACLU affiliates around the country, New Mexico takes a keen interest in policing.

So as the state's largest and most troubled law enforcement agency, APD, has been under that local group's microscope for decades.

The ACLU played a key role in pushing for a U.S.

Justice Department investigation of APD.

Back in the early 2010s, a probe that ultimately found a deep seated pattern of unconstitutional excessive force and a leadership structure that enabled it a court mandated reform project came next through what is called a consent decree, and it lasted until just last summer to get some civil rights focused perspective on how that effort turned out and how Apd's new leaders might carry it forward.

Executive producer Jeff Proctor spoke with Daniel Williams, policy advocate for the ACLU of New Mexico.

>> Jeff: Daniel, thanks a ton for doing this.

And welcome back to New Mexico and focus.

>> Williams: Absolutely.

Always excited to be here.

>> Jeff: I'd like to begin with a bit of a rewind.

It has been ten months now since the end of the DOJ consent decree with APD.

From your perspective.

How successful was that long effort to fix a police department that could not find the Constitution with a flashlight and a road map?

>> Williams: I think one of the things that folks in Albuquerque who've been longtime advocates for police reform, said before the consent decree, during the consent decree, and now after the consent decree, is that this was never a box checking exercise.

This was never about just fulfill a couple, you know, technical legal requirements then everything's good What it's always been about as trans forming a pattern and practice and culture of egregious large scale of rights violations into a culture of constitutional policing.

So I think that's that's the yardstick that we should be measuring by.

We've certainly seen good things come out of the consent decree since the consent decree ended, overall use of force in Albuquerque by APD has been trending mostly down.

That's good news.

Although, you know, during one of the years that the consent decree was in force, they had one of their deadliest year on record.

I think what still remains to be seen is that piece about culture change has the fundamental culture has the fundamental approach to what it means to create and defend community safety change at APD?

I think that's still an open question for me and for a lot of people.

>> Jeff: Gotcha, So given that the ACLU and other community advocacy groups still have that as an open question and maybe are still waiting for that final puzzle piece to kind of fall into place.

How important are these two leadership roles at APD and finally accomplishing that sort of divorced from who got them?

How important are those two positions to finally getting to that spot?

>> Williams: I think they're important.

I don't think they're everything.

I think having having a chief in place, having a public safety director in place who really share the values of the consent decree, who see that task of constitutional policing, not as, a ten year to do list that they've accomplished, but as something that they want to embody throughout their ten year and throughout the organization.

That's really vital, having folks in those positions who care about our rights, who care about real solutions to community safety, who understands that policing is not the solution to all of our problems.

That those things are really important.

You can have the best, most transformative chief in the world, and that's not going to do everything for an agency.

And so I don't want to sort of say, Chief Barker, all of, all of APD culture changes now on your shoulders, but it's certainly a fundamental piece of the puzzle.

It's not going to be one person who fundamentally transforms policing in Albuquerque forever and ever.

Amen.

>> Jeff: Got you.

You mentioned her last name.

Mayor Keller has appointed Cecily Barker to that position of APD chief.

She has spent 20 years of her career in law enforcement at APD.

Sort of the definition of an insider.

I wonder, given kind of what folks like you and who have been monitoring APD for such a long time are hoping for in terms of really changing that culture, taking those last steps.

How does it strike you that someone who's been there for such a long time is now going to be in that role?

Is an insider or the right person for that job?

>> Williams: I think certainly anyone who's sort of made a hiring decision understands there's always this conversation about an internal hire, external hire.

Certainly the stakes are pretty high when you're talking about a police chief, and I can appreciate that There are pros and cons both ways, including on the culture change argument.

Someone who's been embedded in APD culture very deeply knows- >> Jeff: Seen it 15 years ago when it was at its worse.

>> Williams: Exactly, Very much knows where the, where the things that are in need of transformation are.

One would hope.

What I hope the mayor was taking into consideration when he made the decision to promote an entrenched leader in APD, is exactly this question.

Is this the person who, on the basis of their experience and temperament and skills, can lead the Department into building on the progress that they made and, improving on the things that they didn't necessarily improve on during the consent decree process.

>> Jeff: What will you be watching for kind of to measure that in terms of her actions, her decisions on personnel and policy, Are there specifics that you're looking for that will either increase that hope or dash it on the rocks?

>> Williams: I think, you know, one of the things that we heard a lot as the consent decree was winding down and when the consent decree was finally terminated, was that this wasn't going to be the end of all of the reforms that were made, that the policies that were adopted were largely going to stay in place, that changes to training were largely going to stay in place, that the reporting mechanisms that the independent monitor was fulfilling were going to be replaced.

And, to a certain extent, all of that has stayed in place.

We have seen some changes to, for example, the use of force policy suites that had that undid, some consent decree era policies.

But I think that's one of the things that that we're looking for really closely is, are we going to see a slow or fast dismantling of those things that we were promised?

We're going to carry over from the consent decree?

That's huge.

>> Jeff: Let's move on to Raul Bujanda, Chief Barker, will be the first APD chief in 15 years who won't report directly to the mayor.

Mayor Keller has resurrected this, sort of long forgotten position of public safety director.

Mr.

Bujanda will oversee APD, ACS, and AFR He comes from the FBI, of course.

So unlike Chief Barker, he is kind of the definition of an outsider.

That said, he knows APD quite well.

Both from working with them on cases and prosecutions, those kinds of things, and also investigating the police department through the course of the DWI corruption scandal.

What challenges and opportunities?

Just kind of his background and profile present for him in terms of going forward in that role.

>> Williams: I think for me, for us, the ACLU, for almost everyone I talked to in the community, the, the DWI, corruption scheme that went on for decades and not just APD, but multiple law enforcement agencies in central New Mexico, really shook the confidence in law enforcement that, for many of us, was already pretty shaky to begin with.

And so having someone coming in who's going to be overseeing APD, having this sort of high level position, who, who knows the details of that, knows what happened, knows what went wrong, hopefully knows what can be changed.

Best case scenario, that's really good news for rebuilding public trust and that he can really leverage that perspective.

And as you say, his sort of outsider perspective to, to really double down on rooting out corruption, rebuilding public trust, proving to those of us in the community who have reason not to believe that APD always has our best interests and our rights at heart, that we're mistaken.

I think one of the the challenges will be is if that outsider perspective is dismissed by entrenched power bases within the department.

We know that that's been, a challenge, in the culture change arena already, and certainly the, perspective information that he has from his last position could be a boon.

I one can imagine concerns about conflicts of interest and confidentiality and what can be disclosed and whatnot is if that becomes sort of a morass where he, can take less action than he might otherwise be able to, that that could be potentially concerning, but I think remains to be seen how that will unfold.

>> Jeff: What are some of the things that have troubled you in terms of the Keller administration's approach to the unhoused population in Albuquerque?

And how might the new public safety director address some of those concerns?

>> Williams: I think, you know, this is a great example of saying one thing.

I love some of the things that Mayor Keller said last year during the campaign about not pursuing cruel policies towards homelessness, and really wanted to invest in things that work.

And as you say, not, we can't arrest our way out of these problems.

Those are right on the money.

And there are where I think many New Mexicans many Burqenos already stand.

Unfortunately, the day to day reality that we're seeing is that that's not the city's actual policy and practice.

Really stunning report from ProPublica came out about a month ago detailing just how much the city's aggressive criminalization of homelessness and of acts of survival by unhoused people skyrocketed last year, pretty consistently for a while now, close to half or more than half of the folks at MDC live on the streets.

And we're seeing massive increases in- >> Jeff: That█s the count jail >> Williams: Metropolitan Detention Center.

Thank you.

And we're seeing massive increases in filings of charges and arrests for things like, trespassing and obstructing sidewalks, charges that, are not, they're not charging you with being homeless, but those charges are just associated with living in public as a homeless person- >> Jeff: Yeah who else is being charged for blocking a sidewalk.

>> Williams: Exactly.

It's not a super common charge in other contexts.

At the ACLU, we have active litigation against the city related to the policy towards unhoused people, or related to encampment sweeps and things like that.

And we hear stories close to a daily basis about just tragic situations where people are having their possessions destroyed and thrown away, where people are being hauled off to jail just for trying to live in the in the way that's available to them.

And so I think.

Whether or not the new chief and the new public safety director represent a new approach to those issues is going to be really huge for us, assessing how successful they are at matching what the administration says versus what the administration has done.

And you mentioned Albuquerque Community Safety, ACS It's really encouraging to have someone whose job it is going to be to coordinate between those two agencies.

One thing I hear constantly is folks who say, I love being able to call X when something is happening in my in my neighborhood.

I don't love that.

Even when I call ACS, a cop with a gun still comes.

And so hopefully being able to make sure that the right responders are going to the right calls is something that will improve with this new role or not new role.

But revived role.

>> Jeff: Daniel Williams, thank you so much for coming in to help us understand from a little different perspective these new leadership positions.

>> Williams: Thank you so much.

It's been a pleasure.

>> Nash: A big thanks to Daniel Williams for coming in to provide some community perspective to our conversations with the new public safety leadership at the city.

Now, let's get back to my interview with Raul Bujanda who just this week began his new job as Albuquerque's public safety director.

When we left off, Bujanda was talking about his background at the FBI, and how his time.

They're including investigating APD officers for their involvement in a multi department DWI corruption scandal.

Might inform his new work.

Next, we go even further back into his resume when he worked in immigration enforcement to find out how that experience will show up in how he leads the public safety arm of an immigrant friendly city director.

>> Nash: Director, thank you so much for sticking with us.

So you were born in El Paso, but you spent a chunk of time in your teen years in Ciudad Juarez and later worked for the Immigration and Naturalization Services, a predecessor to Ice.

You're now the top public safety officer in an immigrant friendly city.

How does your history inform how you're going to approach working with immigrant communities here in Albuquerque?

>> Bujanda: So my family's history is that of being an immigrant, right?

We immigrated to the United States when my when my grandfather married my grandmother, literally, he was a US citizen, born in Beaumont, Texas, of all places.

But he lived his whole life in Mexico as well.

That's where he met my grandmother and eventually brought everyone.

He worked for the railroad and retired from the railroad.

As far as I've known him, he's been retired.

He's passed away by now.

But, so that was always our story when I started working with immigration was kind of on a whim.

I was a schoolteacher at the time.

>> Nash: Yeah.

What took you, there?

>> Bujanda: It was just, an application that someone gave me one day and said, here, look you can fax it in, oh I don█t know, what a fax is, what you could fax it in.

And it was a one page and all they really wanted to know was overall what was my grade point average.

So I was like sure!

I submitted it.

And really didn't even think about it.

Didn't really think about the job, didn't really even think about the mission.

I never even thought about law enforcement altogether.

So for us, it was like, yeah, let's try it right we were just recently married, literally one year into our marriage and said, let's try to see where it takes us.

And the first offer they offered was San Francisco.

I'm a big 49█er fan.

So I said, sure, let's go do that.

I really didn't know what I was getting into until I was in the job after the Academy in San Francisco.

>> Nash: Once you figured out what you had gotten yourself into, did it align with your values as someone of the family that you're from?

>> Bujanda: You know, it's one of those things.

It, yes, on doing the right thing.

And there's always people that are coming into our country that are trying to get away from something they've done in their country.

And therefore, you know, you don't want them doing those things in our country.

So that part of it was pretty easy, kind of getting rid, get rid of the criminals.

And then those individuals that are trying to come here and doing things, that you wouldn't want them to be doing, you know, crimes involving moral turpitude and those types of things.

You want these people out of our country.

So that part I could, I can relate to doing the right thing, the immigrant population that's coming here to do just do what our family did just to advance themselves, to do the right thing for themselves so that their families can actually have a better life, whether it's in the United States or in the country where they're coming from.

That that I could relate to, because that was my story.

But, the other mission, especially when we moved back to El Paso.

So I actually worked at the port of entry here in El Paso.

That's when it all changed for me.

And just it wasn't it did not align with my values anymore.

I could continue doing the right thing, but it wasn't for the right reasons anymore, because I kind of could see that most of the people that were just coming in were just come in working hard, doing the work that most people didn't even want to do.

And then in most cases, even paying taxes and living living a life of fear.

Right.

Because they were always kind of in fear that someone was going to find out that they weren't supposed to be here and they were going to be deported.

I didn't want to be that person anymore.

So it was time to switch.

And then that was during the time that 911 happened.

I saw a bigger mission, right?

Go fight terrorism, go fight to keep our country safe.

So that's when I switched to the FBI.

>> Nash: Well, District Attorney Sam Bregman, he's also running for governor.

He wrote a letter to the local head of ICE saying that he would prosecute ICE agents who, detain people without legal justification.

If asked, would you be okay with, Albuquerque police officer arresting an ICE agent?

>> Bujanda: So I know Bregman is a big personality, and he probably means every single word that he put in there as well.

And, and I think he's very concerned and focused on making sure that our people are not being subjected to things that they're not supposed to be subjected to, especially those that are trying to do the right thing.

Our police officers are not federal officers.

We we uphold state, local, and we work with our federal partners.

Federal partners have a role.

Their role is to be, do those things that there is that they're doing, whether it's here in our place or not.

But it's not APD's role to do that.

>> Nash: If the local DEA did prosecute an ICE agent and called for their arrest, would you be comfortable with APD executing that.

>> Bujanda: If there is an arrest warrant that's in place and it's legally obtained and legally in our system to do, then obviously we're always going to uphold the law.

>> Nash: Okay.

Now, in addition to the police, you'll oversee Albuquerque Fire Rescue and the community safety department.

How does your long time career at the FBI prepare you to oversee first responders in this way?

>> Bujanda: So, you know, the FBI is considered in the line of first responders, but we're always taking a back seat because, we're always looking for federal nexus and something that needs time to build, build itself out.

But, you're working in the same capacities.

You're, you know, especially in the last, I would say, the last decade, the FBI was really looking at providing victim services to individuals to make sure that you're providing the services that people need before, during and after an investigation.

So now having the opportunity to kind of oversee all of those things and all those components that are always tied closely together, but now having the one mission that's an exciting and challenging place to be, because that's exactly what we should always be doing.

>> Nash: So having a background in the FBI doesn't align you more with the policing that APD is doing compared to fire rescue or community safety.

>> Bujanda: No.

Because, the I mean, the role of any department, especially one that covers, a big, city or in our case, when I was working in the FBI, the state.

You're consumed with all these different roles all at the same time.

And you got to make sure that, you know, what is the best way to triage.

But in this case, yeah, we're going to continue to triage, but at the same time, do it at a level that's collective and that we're kind of pushing that mission forward as one team.

>> Nash: Yeah, so that collective coordination, why is coordination between these departments.

Some people may see them as, as disparate.

And so why is coordination needed?

>> Bujanda: Well, it's needed because when you call for a service, when you call 911 you might be calling because you need police to be dispatched, you might be calling because you need fire rescue to be dispatched.

You might just have someone that's in crisis and needs that kind of attention and focus.

What you don't need is three people showing up.

What you need is just a service that you need at the time.

You're appreciative that people want to show up, but if what you needed is someone to help and be able to talk someone off a ledge, so to speak, then you need those services from the ACS.

You don't need necessarily a police officer there.

So it's one of those things that we can go ahead and make sure that our services are being used appropriately and being triaged like they should be, and providing the services that our community needs at that moment, and not just all the services that could be used elsewhere during that same time.

>> Nash: And without your role, where was that coordination falling short?

>> Bujanda: It was, the coordination was again, we were having that, triage.

It wasn't there.

And we're going to work on fixing that so that we make sure that you're getting the appropriate services and we're not going to hand over or tax our sworn and trained officers, so they can be doing other things at the same time.

>> Nash: You mentioned that it's not always going to be appropriate for APD to be the responding department.

Maybe ACS is who needs to go out there.

So homelessness and addiction are concerns top among a lot of Albuquerque residents list.

The mayor has said the city can't arrest its way out of that problem.

How does his approach, align with your values?

>> Bujanda: And it█s right in line, because it's one of those things that you have to look at all these things as unique in themselves.

And there is not the one solution.

And yes, you can't arrest your way out of a problem in this case, you need to provide the resources that people need to be able to kind of get themselves back on their feet and be good citizens back in the, in our communities.

And that's what our goal is.

So we need to make sure that we're providing the resources that are that they need and the appropriate resources so that we can move as one.

>> Nash: Okay.

The mayor's rhetoric doesn't seem to align with some of the data.

According to a ProPublica, a recent ProPublica report, homelessness, arrests for, issues related to homelessness have skyrocketed.

The population of people classified as homeless at the Metropolitan Detention Center, at the county jail is up way high and almost half of the population.

So, is the city indeed arrests, trying to arrest its way out of this problem?

>> Bujanda: No, not at all.

But it's, you know, we're also let's be real as well.

If you're someone's committing a crime at that moment, then, then you don't want that person to be in that community anymore.

And if they're, whether they're housed or unhoused, actions need to be taken.

>> Nash: But some of these crimes are, you know, blocking a sidewalk, public camping, not necessarily violent crimes or burglary or anything like that.

>> Bujanda: But, even right before I came here, we were looking at policies and, and things that we can put in place so that we can give other solutions and other, other venues and avenues so that we can provide resources without having to arrest people.

>> Nash: Would you like to see those arrest drop?

>> Bujanda: You definetely want to make sure that people are getting what they need so that they can continue to be, a positive citizen in our community.

So, yes, you want to make sure that they're they're getting the resources they need to continue to move forward.

And those resources aren't necessarily going to be found within, within the jail cell.

>> Nash: And now you aren█t officially confirmed in the role, the Albuquerque City Council this week did introduce your appointment, but it won't be discussed until the April 20th meeting.

Their next meeting.

What do you expect out of that confirmation process?

>> Bujanda: A lot of tough questions, right?

Not just about what I plan to be doing in this role, but maybe what I've done in my past role and how I see those kind of intersecting and I welcome them because that's that's what our community wants to know.

I'm sure they got the same questions right.

So yes, I welcome them.

>> Nash: Okay, great.

Director Bujanda thank you so much for your time.

>> Bujanda: Thank you.

>> Nash: Thanks to Raul Bujanda for sitting for our questions.

We plan to follow along as he starts his work in earnest.

We end tonight with the final part of my wide ranging interview with Albuquerque Police Chief Cecily Barker.

We left things with a discussion of APD's persistently high rate of police shootings.

Next, I asked the chief about her plans for building trust back with Albuquerque residents, not only those who fear APD officers will use excessive force, but also those who, despite what the crime stats say, feels unsafe today.

As ever before.

>> Nash: Chief, welcome back and thanks for sitting for a few more questions.

>> Barker: Thank you.

>> Nash: Having one of the the deadliest polices, police forces in the country, the consent decree that, you know, where the DOJ found a pattern of excessive force on top of, a recent DWI corruption scandal that involved several APD officers.

That all plays a role in breaking the trust of the community.

So in the public survey, during your hiring process, participants called for a chief who prioritizes strong, community centered policing and trust building.

How will you deliver that?

>> Barker: And one, it's about transparency, getting out in front of the community and talking about the good and the bad, right.

And I think that I have already started that, as it interim chief, just meeting with all of the different community policing councils, different ambassador programs and community groups.

And talking about, you know, what their concerns are and what we can do to address that moving forward.

>> Nash: All right.

And how will your approach differ, if at all, from Chief Medina is that I think, residents are more familiar with.

>> Barker: Well, I want to be approachable.

And so I, you know, when I go to these community meetings, I provide them my contact information.

And I genuinely mean it when I ask them, please reach out to me.

It's really important when we're trying to address crime, or build trust that the community, trust that they can come to us and share information with us and that we're going to do something to act on that.

>> Nash: How do you measure community trust?

>> Barker: That's a really good question.

You know, we have, different, programs that actually send out surveys to the community.

And so we do look at that feedback.

But I also think it's about being out in the public and, and directly hearing from them.

You know, I've gone out and walked the downtown area, talked to some business owners just to see how things are going.

And I've encouraged my commanders and lieutenants to do that as well, to really get to know the people, and business owners that live within their area commands.

And to hear from them directly.

>> Nash: Now, district attorney, Sam Bregman, who's also running for governor, wrote a letter recently to the local head of Ice saying he would prosecute Ice agents who detain people without legal justification.

If asked, would you be okay sending an Albuquerque police officer to arrest an Ice agent in that case?

So, you know, that's a case by case situation.

And we've talked with, District Attorney Bregman about this, as well as, Raul Torres.

And just working with the other police agencies.

So, you know, it's really important for us to distinguish that line.

Like, we can't go to a crime scene, that involves our federal partners and get involved in that.

But if there's a report to be taken, you know, we would write that report and give it to the district attorney's office to see about filing charges.

>> Nash: And we spoke with public safety director, the new public safety director, Raul Bujanda on this same program.

And he said if there was a legally obtained arrest, warrant in your system, then “obviously we we're going to uphold the law.” Does that resonate with how you feel?

Like you would respond in that instance?

>> Barker: It does.

And one of the examples, you know, that we've talked about is that we have had to, unfortunately, arrest one of our own before.

And so, you know, if there is a violation of law or a warrant or something like that, we would take action like we would with anybody else.

>> Nash: Thanks for that.

Well, during last year's mayoral race, a number of challengers to Mayor Keller said that they didn't believe the statistics, around crime dropping.

I interviewed several of his challengers here on this program and several of them say I don't buy it because I don't feel safer.

>> Barker: Right.

>> Nash: What do you say to folks who doubt the statistics?

>> Barker: We recognize that the perception of crime is that it's high and that it's there.

You know, there are areas of town where I have a 17 year old daughter, and I don't want her driving there by herself.

Right.

We're not naive to that.

And so, it's important for us as an agency to get out in front of that and then tell the story behind the data, because the reality is property crimes are down.

Homicides are down.

We are solving crimes we█re putting the right people in jail.

But there's still more work to be done.

>> Nash: Now, going back to the public survey, that Albuquerque residents responded to, during your search and what they wanted out of the next chief.

The final priority relates to this bit.

Participants called for improved police responsiveness to calls for service, increased visible patrols in, high need areas, and effective deployment of resources.

What's your plan to to meet that expectation?

>> Nash: So in Duke City Stat again that meeting I'm going to keep going back to that.

We talk about data.

It shows us the trends of where we're seeing crime happen, but we're going beyond just looking at a hotspot.

So if you look at historically, police departments would respond to where they're seeing a pocket of crime happening.

But what we want to know as a police department is who is committing crime within that area.

Right.

And so it's not just go out and issue a citation to everybody.

We see.

We want to identify who the drivers of crime are and then make those arrests.

And so that's what we are focusing on.

>> Nash: And do you have the staffing that you need to to be all of those places?

I mean recruitment has been a challenge.

>> Barker: It has.

I mean, we do, we would always invite and love to have more officers.

We're going to continue to recruit.

But we do have the staffing and we're working together as an agency.

So you will see marked patrol out there.

But we also have our investigations out there doing, you know, undercover work, and working with patrol as well.

>> Nash: In terms of the challenge of recruiting more officers, why don't more people want to work for APD?

And how do you start to bolster those numbers?

>> Barker: So one, we have to work on morale, which we've talked about.

And I think that, is improving.

You know, we did have some people who will come out and say they didn't want to be part of the police department because we were under a consent decree.

But I do think we have to get the message out to show that we are a better department because of the work we did to get out of the consent decree, and that we're going to continue to move forward.

>> Nash: You're the first woman to hold this position, in a recruitment video back in 2021, you said that you have been treated differently on the force as a woman.

Some good, some bad.

>> Barker: Yeah.

>> Nash: You mentioned the good in that video, being that some folks are relieved to see a woman respond to their call, for one reason or another.

What are some of the that in what ways have you been treated differently in a negative way while serving at APD?

>> Barker: I mean, you can look at even the comments now.

You have people who will say that█s a DEI hire, and, you know, people have said, well, you're a woman.

You know what's different?

And so I think there's always going to be that question.

But I, you know, I'm proud of the work that I've done and who I am.

And I just, you know, I don't really, you know, focus on the woman part of it.

>> Nash: It sounds like you do a lot of brushing it off, but how would you say you persevere in the face of sexism and misogyny on the police force?

>> Barker: I just work even harder.

>> Nash: Just push through it.

>> Barker: Push through it.

>> Nash: All right.

Now, we are speaking with the new public safety director, Raul Bujanda, on this program.

That is a position that is kind of been resurrected, dusted off, so to speak.

Has been vacant for 15 years.

What does reinstating it mean for you as you take the new chief position?

>> Barker: I look forward to working with Raul.

I had the opportunity to work with him when he was at the FBI.

You know, that was with the Muslim case and with the DWI case.

Just as far as communication and have always been in full support of him.

And I think he's going to bring some really unique and good perspective, to the public safety department.

>> Nash: And it will mean that you report directly to him rather than the mayor.

Does that change things for you or change your connection to the mayor and being able to communicate in that way?

>> Barker: It doesn't.

And, you know, I've talked to the mayor, about it when, you know, he introduced his position to me and what that would look like.

And I communicate very well with the mayor.

And I think that, you know, having Raul there will just help to strengthen that.

>> Nash: Okay.

Chief Barker, thanks so much for your time.

>> Barker: Of course.

Thank you.

>> Nash: And we'll keep you updated on her and Raul Bujanda█s confirmations as they get underway in a little over a week.

Thanks too to everyone else who contributed to the show.

Join us next week when we will welcome Congresswoman Teresa Leger Fernandez to the show to talk protecting public lands, the war in Iran and more for New Mexico PBS I'm Nash Jones.

Until then, stay focused.

Funding for New Mexico inFocus is provided by viewers like you.