>>> NOW, AS WE SAID, IN RUSSIA, A CRACKDOWN ALSO ON INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS HAS FORCED SOME INTO EXILE.

YEVGENIA ALBATS IS ONE OF THEM.

SHE'S EDITOR IN CHIEF OF THE RUSSIAN LANGUAGE INDEPENDENT "THE NEWS TIMES."

SHE'S BEEN BASED IN THE U.S.

IN 2022.

SHE WAS A CLOSE FRIEND OF ALEXEI NAVALNY, WHOSE DEATH SHE BLAMES SQUARELY ON PRESIDENT PUTIN.

AS DOES NAVALNY'S WIFE, YULIA.

THE KREMLIN CALLS THOSE ACCUSATIONS, QUOTE, ABSOLUTELY UNFOUNDED AND BOARISH, SAYING THAT THE INVESTIGATION INTO HIS DEATH IS UNDER WAY.

AND NOW, NAVALNY'S MOTHER HAS FILED A LAWSUIT AGAINST THE INACTION OF THE STATE IN GIVING HER HIS BODY.

YEVGENIA ALBATS JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE LOSS OF HER FRIEND AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US AGAIN TODAY, AND WE ARE ALL SO VERY SORRY ABOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR INVITING ME, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO TALK ABOUT ALEXEI NAVALNY AND TO REMEMBER HIM.

HE WAS A GREAT GUY.

>> WHAT DROVE HIM?

WHAT WAS THE SOURCE OF HIS VISION ABOUT, NOT JUST ABOUT HIMSELF, BUT ABOUT WHAT RUSSIA COULD BE?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, HE -- HE WAS VERY MUCH IN LOVE WITH THE COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, IN HIS OLD LETTERS FROM PRISON TIME, HE WAS WRITING, AND I WAS TELLING HIM, HE SAID, I WOULD LOVE TO FIND MYSELF IN BARBADOS, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, THE PLACE WHERE I WANT MYSELF THE MOST IS MOSCOW.

SO -- AND HE BELIEVED IN RUSSIA'S DEMOCRATIC FUTURE, AND HE BELIEVED THAT HE -- HE WAS THE ONE WHO WAS CAPABLE TO BECOME THE REAL LEADER OF THE COUNTRY.

HE WAS THE ONE TO CONDUCT THE POLITICAL REFORM.

HE WAS REALLY ONE OF THOSE POLITICIANS WHO BELIEVED IN THE COMMON GOOD, AND WHO WAS READY TO SACRIFICE.

SACRIFICE ALMOST EVERYTHING, AND AS WE CAN SEE, SACRIFICE EVEN HIS LIFE FOR THIS BRIGHTER FUTURE OF RUSSIA.

>> THE -- MANY OF THE HEADLINES IN THE WEST SAY, WHO HAVE FOLLOWED HIS STORY, SAY, BASICALLY, SHOCKED, BUT NOT SURPRISED.

IS THAT -- DOES THAT SUM IT UP?

I MEAN, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, THERE HAD BEEN ATTEMPTS ON HIS LIFE BEFORE, I MEAN, PEOPLE MAY REMEMBER THAT HE WAS POISONED, YOU KNOW, ON AN AIRPLANE, HE WAS RUSHED TO GERMANY, WHERE HE RECEIVED, YOU KNOW, MEDICAL TREATMENT, HE COULD HAVE DIED THEN.

SO, THE -- I GUESS THE FEELING IS, SHOCKING, YES, BUT NOT A SURPRISE, ESPECIALLY AFTER HE WAS SENT TO THIS PRISON COLONY IN THE ARCTIC.

DOES THIS -- IS THIS ABOUT RIGHT?

IS THIS -- WAS THIS SUM IT UP?

>> I'M NOT SO SURE ABOUT THAT.

TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, MANY OF US, WE ALMOST TENDED TO BELIEVE THAT HE BECAME IMMORTAL.

OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, HE KNEW HIS RISKS, BUT YOU KNOW, IN ONE OF -- I HAVE TONS OF HIS LETTERS, BECAUSE I'M WRITING SOMETHING, AND IN ONE OF HIS LETTERS, WHEN I COMPLAINED TO HIM, AFTER I COMPLAINED TO HIM THAT I HATE TO DIE IN EXILE, AND HE RESPONDED TO ME, GENIA, THAT'S MY NICKNAME, YOU KNOW, THERE IS NO -- DEATH DOESN'T EXIST.

YOU KNOW, HE WAS A DEEPLY RELIGIOUS MAN, AND, YOU KNOW, AND ALSO, IN ANOTHER LETTER THAT HE SENT TO ME SHORTLY AFTER HE HAD RETURNED BACK FROM GERMANY, WHERE, YOU KNOW, HE RECOVERED AFTER PUTIN TRIED TO KILL HIM FIRST TIME, AND PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT HIM IN MOSCOW LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE GUY WHO MANAGED TO OVERCOME DEATH, IT WAS ALMOST ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HIS RESURRECTION.

AND I THINK PUTIN WAS VERY AFRAID OF THAT, THAT PEOPLE WERE MAKING IT OUT.

BUT ANYWAY, YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE LETTER, I CAN SHOW YOU, IT'S JUST -- AND HE WROTE IN THIS LETTER THAT, GENIA, EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE OKAY, AND I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT ANYTHING, I'M NOT PITY ABOUT ANYTHING, AND YOU SHOULDN'T.

EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE FINE, JUST FINE.

AND EVEN IF IT DOESN'T, WE CAN CONSOLE OURSELVES THAT WE WERE HONEST PEOPLE.

THAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE MOSCOW JAIL, NUMBER 99-1.

AND HE WAS ABSOLUTELY AWARE THAT PUTIN WAS GOING TO KEEP HIM IN JAIL AS LONG AS PUTIN WAS ALIVE.

BECAUSE PUTIN SAW HIM AS AN -- THAT'S WHY HE KILLED HIM, HE TRIED TO BREAK HIM.

HE TORTURED HIM.

AND PUTIN HIMSELF.

EVERYTHING WITH RESPECT TO NAVALNY WAS DONE AT THE ORDERS OF THIS TOP GUY.

>> HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS?

HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS?

>> BECAUSE WE HAVE VERY GOOD SOURCES.

WE KNEW THAT WHEN NAVALNY WAS DYING, WHEN HE WAS ON HUNGER STRIKE FOR 22 DAYS, YOU KNOW, WE -- WE WERE LOOKING FOR WAYS AND MEANS, YOU KNOW, TO SAVE HIM.

AND SO, WE KNEW THAT ALL THE DECISIONS WERE MADE BY PUTIN HIMSELF.

NOW, HE WAS -- AND, YOU KNOW, NAVALNY WAS -- WAS ALTERNATIVE TO PUTIN AND PUTIN DID UNDERSTAND THAT THE GUY WAS CAPABLE TO CHALLENGE HIM.

SO -- AND THAT'S WHY, YOU KNOW, FOR THREE YEARS ON THE ROAD, HE WAS PUT IN TORTUROUS CONDITIONS.

HE SPEND JUST, YOU KNOW, IN THE LAST TWO YEARS, HE SPENDS 308 DAYS IN SOLITARY PUNISHMENT CELL.

HE WASN'T ALLOWED ANY COMMISSARY.

HE WAS CONSTANTLY HUNGRY.

THEY WOULD BRING HIM FOOD TO HIS CELL, THEY WOULD SHOW FOOD TO HIM AND THEN DUMP IT.

THEY KEPT HIM IN SOLITARY PUNISHMENT CELL.

IT WAS SUFFOCATING HOT DURING THE SUMMER, AND IT WAS FREEZING COLD DURING THE WINTER.

THERE WAS NEVER -- THERE WAS NEVER HOT WATER IN THE TUB.

THERE WAS JUST, YOU KNOW, A HOLE IN THE FLOOR INSTEAD OF A TOILET.

HE WASN'T ABLE, EVEN WHEN HE WAS SICK, WHEN HE HAD PNEUMONIA, HE COULDN'T LAY ON HIS BACK, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HE WASN'T ALLOWED, HIS BACK WAS ATTACHED TO -- TO THE WALL, FROM 5:00 IN THE MORNING UNTIL LATE AT NIGHT.

>> WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, HIS CONDITIONS WERE EXTREMELY HARSH AND MEANT TO BE DEMEANS, AND MEANT TO BREAK HIS SPIRIT.

SO -- >> EXACTLY.

>> SO, ALL OF THE ABOVE.

BUT WHY NOW?

IF, AS YOU BELIEVE, AS MUCH OF THE WORLD BELIEVES, THAT THIS DEATH WAS ORDERED NOW, WHY NOW?

>> FOR PUTIN, IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO GIVE THIS NOTION THAT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, THE ENTIRE RUSSIA, WAS SUPPORTING HIS WAR OF AGGRESSION AGAINST UKRAINE.

THAT HE HAD, YOU KNOW, HE HAS THIS -- HE HAS THIS SUPPORT.

SO, IN THIS COMING MARCH, THERE ARE SO-CALLED ELECTIONS IN RUSSIA, OF COURSE, IT'S NOT ELECTIONS, GOING TO BE PROCEDURE, IT'S NOT ELECTIONS, SO, THE ORDER FROM KREMLIN, 80% OF RUSSIANS SHOULD PRETEND THAT THEY VOTED FOR PUTIN, AND THEY CANNOT JUST, YOU KNOW, WRITE DOWN ALL THOSE NUMBERS, BECAUSE THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY -- THEY CANNOT DO THIS, SO THAT'S WHY, YOU KNOW, HE INVITED TUCKER CARL CARLSON TO MAKE THIS INTERVIEW, TO PRESENT HIMSELF AS THE ONE WHO IS REAL TRUE RUSSIA, AND NAVALNY WAS A CONSTANT PROBLEM, BECAUSE NAVALNY PRESENTED AN ALTERNATIVE.

AND NAVALNY, EVEN BEING IN THIS MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON IN THE ARCTIC CIRCLE, 61 KILOMETERS OF THE ARCTIC CIRCLE, HE -- HE CALLED PEOPLE NOT TO VOTE FOR PUTIN.

HE CONDUCTED THESE ANTI-PUTIN CAMPAIGN, SITTING IN THE MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON, AND PEOPLE LISTENED TO HIM.

AND WE SEE THE NUMBERS.

WE SEE THAT INDEPENDENT POLLSTERS, WHENEVER, YOU KNOW, AS LITTLE, YOU KNOW, AS HARD AS IT IS FOR THEM TO DO ANY JOB IN RUSSIA, THEY -- THEY MEASURE THAT MORE AND MORE RUSSIANS ASK FOR THE END OF THE WAR.

AND OVER 50% OF RUSSIANS, YOU KNOW, ASK FOR THE END OF THE WAR.

AND LOOK, YOU KNOW, NOW THAT WHEN THEY KILLED NAVALNY, THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF RUSSIANS, THEY ARE BRINGING FLOWERS TO THE MEMORIALS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

390 PEOPLE WERE ALREADY ARRESTED FOR THAT, JUST FOR MOURNING -- JUST FOR GRIEVING.

PUTIN REALIZES, BECAUSE HE'S -- THEY SEE THAT NAVALNY'S SEEN BY MUCH ESPECIALLY YOUNG RUSSIANS AS THEIR LEADER.

>> ONE OF -- YOU MENTIONED THAT TUCKER CARLSON, THE FORMER FOX NEWS PERSONALITY, WHO DID THIS INTERVIEW WITH PUTIN FOR HIS DIGITAL OUTLET, I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO DESCRIBE IT, IT WAS, YOU KNOW, SORT OF A SOFTBALL, THERE WERE NO CHALLENGING QUESTIONS ASKED, AND HE ALLOWED PUTIN TO KIND OF RAMBLE ON ABOUT HIS, YOU KNOW, HIS SORT OF FALSE VERSION, SORT OF, OF HISTORY.

DOES THIS MEAN THAT PUTIN IS WEAK?

OR DOES THAT MEAN THAT PUTIN IS STRONG?

I GUESS THAT WOULD BE THE QUESTION.

>> I THINK THAT PUTIN -- WHEN TUCKER CARLSON INTERVIEW HAPPENED, PUTIN REALIZED THAT THE WEST IS WEAK.

BUT THE WEST IS EXTRAORDINARILY WEAK.

THAT THE WEST IS UNABLE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

THAT THE U.S. CONGRESS IS UNABLE TO -- TO PASS THIS BILL THAT WOULD ALLOW TO PROVIDE UKRAINE WITH WEAPONS.

THAT'S WHY UKRAINE IS LOSING THE WAR.

HE REALIZED THAT BASICALLY HE OVERCAME THE SITUATION WHEN HE WAS AN OUTCAST, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, WITH THE HELP OF TUCKER CARLSON AND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF VIEWS, HE GOT BACK ON THE WORLD STAGE.

AND THEREFORE, YOU KNOW, HE RESOLVED HIS PROBLEM, HE'S WINNING THE WAR IN THE UKRAINE, AMERICANS NO LONGER SUPPORT UKRAINIANS AND READY TO GIVE UP, AND THEREFORE, THE ONLY PROBLEMS HE WAS LEFT WITH WAS ALEXEI NAVALNY.

>> YOU'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THE UNITED STATES, AND AS YOU NOTED, YOU ARE LIVING HERE IN EXILE NOW.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHY THE UNITED STATES, OR AT LEAST CERTAIN SECTORS IN THE UNITED STATES, ARE HAVING SUCH A DIFFICULT TIME SUPPORTING UKRAINE, OR, AT LEAST, CHALLENGING, YOU KNOW, PUTIN'S FIRST FOR POWER?

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT?

HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

>> LISTEN, OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, I AM RUSSIAN JOURNALIST AND ACADEMIC, AND I DON'T LIKE TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS OF OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT I WATCH YOUR PRIMARIES, I ALWAYS COVER PRIMARIES IN THE UNITED STATES, AND WE DISCUSS -- YOU KNOW, THE LAST LETTER I SENT NAVALNY WAS ON FEBRUARY 9th, 2024, SO, YOU KNOW, TEN DAYS AGO, AND THE ENTIRE LETTER WAS ABOUT U.S. PRIMARIES, AND THAT WAS THE EARLIEST PRIMARIES, AND WHAT'S HAPPENED TO TRUMP, WHAT KIND OF COURSE CASES, AND NUMBERS AND NUMBERS, YOU KNOW, THAT BIDEN IS, YOU KNOW, IS GETTING A LOT OF IN THE NEGATIVE PUBLICITY, EVERYTHING.

LONG, LONG LETTER, BECAUSE WE DISCUSS THIS CONSTANTLY WITH ALEXEI OVER LETTERS.

AND I THINK IT IS, AS FAR AS MY UNDERSTANDING, THE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, THEY GOT AN ORDER FROM THE PLAUSIBLE SECOND-TIME PRESIDENT, FROM DONALD TRUMP, NOT TO SUPPORT THE BILL.

AND I THINK THEY JUST FOLLOW THE ORDERS, BECAUSE THE -- THE CHOICE IS FOR THEM THAT IF TRUMP, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY SAW THE FATE OF LIZ CHENEY, WHO WAS A PROMINENT CONSERVATIVE, WHO WAS, YOU KNOW, DAUGHTER OF A VERY PROMINENT CONSERVATIVE, AND WENT AGAINST TRUMP, WAS KICKED OUT OF THE CONGRESS.

SO -- AND I THINK THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, SOME POLITICIANS IN GOP, THEY FORGOT ABOUT THE COMMON GOOD, AND ALL THEY CARE ABOUT -- >> I HEARD YOU SAY THAT YOU TRY AS A RUSSIAN JOURNALIST AND AS A RUSSIAN ACADEMIC NOT TO, YOU KNOW, INVOLVE YOURSELF IN THE POLITICS OF ANOTHER COUNTRY.

BUT YOU ARE HERE NOW, AND AMERICANS DO LISTEN TO YOU.

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU WOULD JUST GIVE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT WHY AMERICANS SHOULD CONTINUE TO CARE ABOUT THIS.

I MEAN, WE'RE SORT OF BEEN REPORTING ON THIS, YOU HEAR DIFFERENT THINGS ABOUT WHY AMERICANS HAVE A WANING INTEREST IN UKRAINE.

IF YOU WOULD JUST GIVE US YOUR SENSE OF WHY YOU THINK AMERICANS SHOULD CONTINUE TO CARE ABOUT THIS?

>> I THINK THAT IT'S LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF ALL THE DANGERS THAT COMES OUT OF PUTIN.

DONALD TRUMP IS DEFINITELY ADMIRES PUTIN.

FOR HIM, HE IS A -- SO, JUST THINK ABOUT THAT.

IF THIS EVIL MAN WHO RUNS RUSSIA NOW, WHO IS -- WHO IS RUNNING, YOU KNOW, WHO IS SITTING IN KREMLIN ALREADY FOR 24 YEARS, AND INTENDS TO SIT FOR ANOTHER 12 YEARS, MORE THAN STALIN WAS IN KREMLIN, SO IF THIS KIND OF MAN WHO IS READY TO KILL AROUND AND TO KILL HIS OPPONENTS, IF HE'S A ROLE MODEL FOR DONALD TRUMP, THEN WHAT KIND OF GUY YOU'RE GOING TO BRING INTO THE WHITE HOUSE AGAIN IN NOVEMBER OF 2024?

I THINK THAT AMERICANS, YOU KNOW, PROBABLY -- PROBABLY -- THERE'S A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING THAT PUTIN IS VERY MUCH LIKE HITLER.

THAT IN 1939, IN GERMANY, WHEN HE WAS ABOUT TO START THE WORLD WAR II, WHICH ENDED UP WITH -- WITH 60 MILLION DEAD ACROSS EUROPE, AND A LOT OF AMERICANS DIED IN THAT WAR, AS WELL, PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO STOP IN UKRAINE.

IF HE'S GOING TO WIN IN UKRAINE, HE'S GOING TO GO FURTHER.

HE'S GOING TO ATTACK FINLAND, HE IS GOING TO ATTACK POLAND, HE'S GOING TO ATTACK BALTIC NATIONS, BECAUSE PUTIN IS ABOUT REINSTATING NOT THE SOVIET UNION, HE'S ABOUT REINSTATING OF THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE.

BUT BE AWARE, PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO STOP.

AND HE'S AN EVIL MAN.

AND I THINK YOU AMERICANS CAN TAKE PRIDE IN STOPPING THE EVIL MAN, THE WAY YOU BECAME PART OF THE COALITION WHICH STOPPED ADOLF HITLER BACK 75 YEARS AGO.

THAT'S WHAT I WOULD SAY.

>> IS THERE ANYTHING THAT GIVES YOU HOPE FOR A BETTER FUTURE FOR RUSSIA RIGHT NOW?

YOU MENTIONED THAT NAVALNY, WHAT, IN PART, KEPT HIM GOING WAS HIS PROFOUND FAITH, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT'S GIVING YOU HOPE?

RIGHT NOW?

>> YOU KNOW, YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED ME THIS QUESTION THREE DAYS AGO.

I WOULD SAY NO.

I'M GOING TO DIE, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT GOING TO RETURN BACK TO MOSCOW AND I WON'T SEE MY COUNTRY AS A NORMAL DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

BUT YESTERDAY, HIS WIFE, HIS WIDOW, CAME OUT AND SHE SAID THAT I AM GOING TO CONTINUE THE FIND OF FIGHT MY LATE HUSBAND RAN FOR ALL THESE DECADES.

I'M GOING TO PICK UP HIS BANNER AND I'M GOING TO CARRY ON.

AND THIS ALREADY, YOU KNOW, ALMOST 6 MILLION PEOPLE WATCHED HER STATEMENT ON YOUTUBE.

AND TRUST ME, THERE WILL BE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS MORE.

SO, I THINK THAT NOW THAT SHE SAID SHE WAS GOING TO -- TO DO -- TO KEEP DOING, TO KEEP THE KIND OF FIGHT HER LATE HUSBAND CONDUCTED FOR SO MANY DECADES, IT GIVES SOME HOPE.

AT LEAST IT'S -- IT COMES WITH HUGE RISK FOR HER PERSONALLY, BECAUSE PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO STOP, BECAUSE HE IS EVEN AND A KILLER, AND -- BUT AT LEAST RUSSIAN SOCIETY, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION, PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL, NOW WE HAVE A LEADER WHO WILL TRY TO LEAD AND TO OVERCOME.

>> YEVGENIA ALBATS, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN AT WHAT I KNOW IS A VERY DIFFICULT TIME FOR YOU, SO, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.