>> JUST AHEAD ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM, A NATION REMEMBERS 9/11 TWENTY YEARS LATER, WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED ABOUT OUR AMERICAN SELVES, ABOUT THE WAR ON TERROR, AND HOMELAND SECURITY AMID RISING HATE CRIMES.

SPECIAL GUEST DR. WILMER LEON OF SIRIUS XM'S URBAN VIEW JOINS OUR PANEL.

STAY WITH US.

♪ WELCOME TO BLACK ISSUES FORUM I'M DEBORAH HOLT NOEL.

THIS WEEKEND MARKS THE 20TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE MOST DEVASTATING FOREIGN ATTACK ON AMERICAN SOIL EVER, KNOWN AS 9.11.

VIRTUALLY EVERY AMERICAN ADULT TODAY WILL RECALL THE IMAGES OF THE COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS CRASHING INTO THE TWIN TOWERS IN NEW YORK CITY, THE WRECKAGE AT THE PENTAGON IN WASHINGTON DC, AND THE CIVILIAN HEROES WHO DIVERTED ANOTHER PLANE TO A FIELD IN PENNSYLVANIA.

ALL OF THIS OF COURSE OCCURRING ON 9/11/2001, AND ASSAULT WE NOW KNOW WAS ORCHESTRATED AND LAUNCHED BY THE ISLAMIC GROUP AL QAEDA LED BY OSAMA BIN LADEN WHO WAS KILLED BY AN AMERICAN LED OPERATION IN PAKISTAN, 10 YEARS AFTER THE FATEFUL 9.11 ATTACK.

IN THE 20 YEARS SINCE 9.11 OUR AMERICAN LIVES HAVE DRAMATICALLY CHANGED AND AS MANY WILL NO DOUBT REFLECT ON THE DAY OF TRAGEDY WITH STORIES OF WHAT PEOPLE WITNESSED AND EXPERIENCED ON THAT DAY WITH SADNESS OVER WHAT WAS LOST AND WITH PRIDE IN THE MANY HEROES OF THE HOUR IN TODAY'S EDITION OF BLACK ISSUES FOR WE LOOK FORWARD BY LOOKING BACK TO ANSWER IN RETROSPECT, WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED ABOUT OUR AMERICAN CELLS THESE 20 YEARS.

JOINING US TODAY.

I WANT TO WELCOME POLITICAL ANALYST STEVE RAO, ATTORNEY HAROLD EUSTACE HEAD OF THE FORSYTH COUNTY GOP AND A VERY SPECIAL GUEST DOCTOR WILMER, LEON AUTHOR POLITICAL SCIENTIST AND HOST OF INSIDE THE ISSUES WITH DOCTOR WILMER LEON ON SIRIUS XM'S URBAN VIEW CHANNEL, 126.

GENTLEMEN DELIGHTED TO HAVE ALL 3 OF YOU HERE.

LET ME OPEN UP WITH YOU STEVE.

AS THE NARRATIVE GOES WE WERE THERE TO PROTECT OUR INTERESTS.

WHAT WERE THOSE INTERESTS AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE INTERESTS NOW THAT WE HAVE LEFT AFGHANISTAN?

>> DEBORAH, IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE AND I WANT TO JUST FIRST OF ALL PRAY FOR ALL OF THE FAMILIES ON THIS VERY SOMBER DAY IN AMERICAN HISTORY AND THANK ALL THE SOLDIERS OF OUR ARMED FORCES WHO HAVE DEFENDED OUR NATION.

BUT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, WE HAD OUR INTERESTS SHIFTED AS WE BEGAN THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN.

THE INITIAL INTEREST WAS INITIALLY TO DEGRADE AL QAEDA.

SO AFTER 9.11, YOU SAW A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN AL QAEDA NETWORKS WHERE THEY WERE ATTACKING IN LONDON AND ALL OVER THE WORLD.

AND PRESIDENT BUSH AND THEN PRESIDENT OBAMA DECIDED TO REALLY FOCUS IN ON AFGHANISTAN TO DEGRADE THE AL QAEDA NETWORK AND IT WORKED INITIALLY BY YEAR 2002, 2003, MUCH OF AL QAEDA HAD BEEN DIMINISHED AND EVENTUALLY IN 2011, WE GET RID OF OSAMA BIN LADEN.

THE CHALLENGE HOWEVER WAS THEN THE INTEREST SHIFTED AND IT BECAME WE'RE GOING TO PROMOTE DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM IN AFGHANISTAN.

AND WE GOT INTO WHAT THEY CALL THE NEVER ENDING WARS.

REMEMBER AFTER THAT IT WAS AFGHANISTAN 19 YEARS AND 47 DAYS.

19 YEARS AND 47 DAYS LONGEST WAR IN U.S. HISTORY.

AND WHAT THAT MEANT WAS THAT WE WERE HAVING THE CHALLENGE OF SECURING PEACE AND DEMOCRACY IN A NATION WHERE WE DIDN'T HAVE A LEGITIMATE STRONG GOVERNMENT WE DIDN'T HAVE A STRONG MILITARY AND WE WERE IN A SITUATION WHERE IF WE PULLED OUT, THE TALIBAN COULD BOUNCE BACK.

AND SO OUR INTERESTS, TO ANSWER QUESTION, SHIFTED FROM ACHIEVING DEGRADING OF THE AL QAEDA NETWORK.

BUT NOW THE INTEREST IS WHAT DO WE DO IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE IF WE STAY IN AFGHANISTAN, WE GUARANTEE MORE AMERICANS AND CIVILIANS WILL DIE.

THE NEVER ENDING WARS ALL IN WITH THIS 6.5 TRILLION DOLLARS SPENT ON THE WARS IN AFGHANISTAN, IRAQ AND PAKISTAN.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS DEAD, AND NOW WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE INTEREST IS MOVING FORWARD.

>> HAROLD LET ME ASK YOU STEVE TALKED ABOUT SHIFTING INTEREST.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS HAVING FOUGHT IN AFGHANISTAN AND ALSO LOOKING OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON OUR REASONS FOR STAYING EVEN AFTER OSAMA BIN LADEN WAS ELIMINATED?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW FIRST OF ALL I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IN 9/11 SHAPED MY LIFE AND I THINK SO MANY AMERICANS LIVES AND THAT IT WAS OF COURSE AN INCREDIBLE TRAGEDY FOR A COUNTRY, BUT YOU KNOW FOR ME ON 9.11 I WAS AT MOREHOUSE COLLEGE IN AND WHICH ONE OF THE ONLY TIMES AFTER THAT WE HAVE THIS BELL CAMPUS.

AND THE BELL WAS RANG TO CALL TO ACTION AND THE ONLY TIME SINCE THINK MARTIN LUTHER KING WAS ASSASSINATED IN 1968 THAT THE BELL RUNG WAS 2011.

AND THAT WAS A CALL TO ACTION FOR ME TO SIGN UP FOR THE MILITARY, I HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT IT BEFORE THEM.

SO THAT CHANGED THE COURSE OF MY LIFE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE'S LIVES.

AND SO YOU KNOW SPEND THAT TIME IN AFGHANISTAN AND GETTING TO SEE YOU KNOW EVERYTHING RIGHT ON THE GROUND.

I DID QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE AND WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE THERE.

I THINK THAT THE RIGHT COURSE OF ACTION WAS TO GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN AS FAR AS A COMBAT OPERATIONS.

I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD HAVE HAD YOU KNOW A NATION-BUILDING STRATEGY THERE THAT WE DID HAVE THAT WAS A LOT OF USE OF OUR TIME AND ENERGY BUT I DO THINK AS A STRATEGIC SORT OF INTEREST THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR US TO KEEP IN AFGHANISTAN IN SOME SORT OF WAY.

I THINK WE MAY HAVE DROPPED THE BALL THERE, BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AFTER WORLD WAR 2.

WE KEPT BASES IN GERMANY AND KEPT BASES IN JAPAN UP UNTIL THIS DAY AFTER THE KOREAN WAR WE STILL HAVE FOR DECADES, SOLDIERS GOING TO KOREA, WE STILL HAVE BASES IN KOREA, AND SO IT'S NOT UNIQUE AFTER AN AMERICAN WAR FOR US TO HAVE TO KEEP TROOPS IN PLACE IN A STRATEGIC WAY, SO I THINK WITH THE ISSUES WE HAVE WITH PAKISTAN, IRAN, CHINA AND RUSSIA.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT WE DON'T HAVE A STRATEGIC BASE IN THAT AREA AT THIS POINT.

>> THANK YOU.

DOCTOR LEON, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS AS WE CONSIDER THE POWER POSITION OF AMERICA, THEN, THE POWER POSITION OF AMERICA OVER THESE PAST 20 YEARS?

WHAT CAN WE SAY ABOUT WHAT WE'VE LEARNED ABOUT WHERE THAT POWER IS AND WHERE WE'RE POSITIONED GLOBALLY?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT UNPACK THIS VERY HONESTLY BECAUSE WHAT TRANSPIRED ON SEPTEMBER 11TH WAS HORRIFIC AND TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPACT THAT IT'S HAD ON THE COUNTRY, HOW IT'S BEEN BURNED AND INGRAINED INTO THE PSYCHE OF AMERICANS, THE IMPACT THAT IT'S HAD ON FAMILIES, AND LOVED ONES IS IS JUST HORRIFIC.

BUT THERE'S A REAL LACK OF ANY HONEST ANALYSIS PARTICULARLY IN MAINSTREAM MEDIA OF WHY THIS HAPPENED AND MORE IMPORTANT TO ME, HOW THIS HORROR HAS BEEN USED AS AN EXCUSE FOR AMERICAN MILITARIZATION AND RATIONALIZATION FOR ESCALATING MILITARY SPENDING AND HOW AMERICANS HAVE BEEN CONVINCED TO RELINQUISH CIVIL RIGHTS CIVIL LIBERTIES AND ALSO THE DRAMATIC ESCALATION OF THEIR OF THE SURVEILLANCE STATE.

BUT DIRECTLY TO YOUR QUESTION IN TERMS OF AMERICAN POWER, WE HAVE SHIFTED FROM THE POLAR TO A MULTIPOLAR WORLD.

AND IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT WE HAVEN'T BEEN IN AFGHANISTAN 20 YEARS WE'VE BEEN IN AFGHANISTAN, 41 YEARS.

JIMMY CARTER TOOK US INTO AFGHANISTAN IN 1979 AT THE ILL-ADVISED - FOLLOWING THE BAD ADVICE OF HIS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISORS TO ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI WHO WAS A STAUNCH ANTI RUSSIAN AND HIS RUSSIAN, HATRED IS WHAT REALLY GOT US INTO AFGHANISTAN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

BUT WE SHIFTED FROM THE UNITED STATES BEING THE UNITARY POWER AFTER THE COLD WAR TO NOW A MULTIPOLAR WORLD WITH RUSSIA WITH CHINA, WITH IRAN, ALL BECOMING INCREDIBLY POWERFUL IN THEIR REGIONS AND PARTICULARLY WITH CHINA INTERNATIONALLY AND THE UNITED STATES HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO SHIFT ITS MINDSET.

IT HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO SHIFT ITS RHETORIC.

IT IS NOT BEEN ABLE TO SHIFT ITS FOCUS AND IT'S REALITY TO UNDERSTAND WE ARE NO LONGER THE UNIPOLAR HEDGEMIND.

WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL EFFECTIVELY IN A MULTIPOLAR WORLD.

>> AND IS DEALING EFFECTIVELY, INCLUDING YOU KNOW, STRIKING DEALS WITH THE TALIBAN BECAUSE I THINK THAT SOME AMERICANS WANT TO KNOW HOW CAN WE HAVE A DEAL WITH THE TALIBAN?

WHAT'S OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM?

>> WELL, WHY CAN'T WE SINCE WE'RE THE ONES THAT BROUGHT THEM TO POWER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

IF YOU GO BACK AND UNDERSTAND THE MUJAHIDEEN AND THAT THE TALIBAN CAME OUT OF THE MUJAHIDEEN AND THE UNITED STATES FUNDED ALL OF THAT, WE DEALT WITH THE TALIBAN WHEN THEY WERE INITIALLY IN POWER.

SO IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT ELSE ARE WE GOING TO DO?

AFGHANISTAN IS A SOVEREIGN NATION.

AND WE LOST THE FIGHT.

SO WE NOW HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE PEOPLE THAT WON THE FIGHT.

AGAIN, WE CAN NO LONGER TRAVERSED THE WORLD TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO.

IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK ANYMORE.

AND THE SOONER WE FIGURE THAT OUT, THE SAFER WE'RE GOING TO BE, THE SAFER THE WORLD'S GOING TO BE, AND WE'LL SAVE MY HECK OF A LOT OF MONEY.

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THE WORLD AND SECURITY STEVE, YOU KNOW WITH SENSITIVITY TO HOW AMERICANS ARE FEELING RIGHT NOW AFTER WITNESSING THE CHAOTIC DEPARTURE FROM AFGHANISTAN WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT OUR REPUTATION STANDS AND WHAT WE CAN DO TO MAKE AMERICA SECURE?

ARE WE MORE SECURE AFTER THAT ORIGINAL INTENT TO KIND OF DE-ESCALATE AL QAEDA AND THEN KIND OF NEUTRALIZE WHAT'S COMING OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.

>> WELL I THINK IN TERMS OF OUR CREDIBILITY IN THE WORLD, I MEAN I THINK YOU KNOW UNITED STATES FOREIGN POLICY IS NOW IN QUESTION BY MANY OF OUR ALLIES BECAUSE YOU KNOW NOW WE HAVE A HUMANITARIAN DISASTER ON OUR HANDS HOW WE'VE GOT REFUGEES ARE GOING TO BE EXITING NOT ONLY TO THE UNITED STATES, BUT ALL OVER THE WORLD.

WE HAVE THE MISTREATMENT OF WOMEN AND COMPLETE INSTABILITY AND I THINK PICKING UP ON WHAT DOCTOR, LEON SAID, IT'S NO LONGER JUST THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, YOU HAVE ALL THESE ALLIES THAT COALITION FORCES LIKE BRITAIN FOR EXAMPLE THEY LOST SECOND -- THE MOST LIVES WERE LOST BY THE NATION OF BRITAIN IN AFGHANISTAN, AND THEY WANT TO BE A PART OF THESE DECISIONS SO I THINK IT HAS HURT OUR CREDIBILITY AS THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD AND I THINK WHAT IS NOT CLEAR TO MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD IS THE BIDEN DOCTRINE NOW STATES THAT WE WILL PROMOTE HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY AS LONG AS IT SERVES THE INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

BUT WHAT MAKES IT CHALLENGING IN A MULTIPOLAR WORLD IS THAT YOU HAVE NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION IN IRAN AND NORTH KOREA.

CONTINUED THREATS OF CYBER TERRORISM OF THE RISE OF CHINA AS AN EMERGING SUPERPOWER AND LET'S NOT FORGET RUSSIA, THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, RIGHT?

AND SO IT'S NO LONGER ONE LIKE THE COLD WAR, IT'S A MULTI POLAR WORLD WITH NATIONALS AND WITH DESTRUCTION AND ALL OF THIS OCCURRING IN THE MIDST OF A GLOBAL PANDEMIC THAT'S NOT GOING AWAY WHICH IS AFFECTING ALL OF US SO IT'S A REALLY TOUGH TIME.

>> THERE'S A LOT COMING AT US AS AMERICANS, AS A WORLD POWER, HAROLD HOW IS THIS ADMINISTRATION DOING IN TERMS OF DEALING WITH THOSE OTHER WORLD POWERS THAT ARE KIND OF RIGHT ON OUR HEELS?

CHINA, RUSSIA, HOW ARE WE DOING WITH THOSE RELATIONSHIPS AND MAKING SURE THAT WE ARE WELL POSITION TO CONTROL OUR FUTURE AND SECURE OUR FUTURES HERE?

>> I THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION IS DOING POORLY AND THAT'S EVIDENCED BY WHAT SOME OF THE WORLD POWERS HAVE SAID ABOUT OUR ACTIONS AFTER AFGHANISTAN.

THE UK PARLIAMENT HELD PRESIDENT BIDEN IN CONTEMPT PART OF WHAT STEVE JUST ALLUDED TO WAS WHEN WE GOT OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, HERE RECENTLY LAST SEVERAL MONTHS, THE PRESIDENT REALLY DIDN'T CONSULT WITH FOREIGN LEADERS.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS, WERE PART OF NATO.

AND UNDER ARTICLE 5 OF NATO THE ONLY TIME IT'S BEEN USED THAT WHEN YOU ATTACK ONE NATO POWER, IT MEANS ATTACKING ALL OF THOSE COUNTRIES THAT IT WAS ONLY USED IN THE DEFENSE OF THE UNITED STATES AFTER SEPTEMBER 11.

SO ALL THESE COUNTRIES WENT TO AFGHANISTAN BECAUSE OF US.

AND WHEN WE DIDN'T CONSULT THEM AND WE LEFT ABRUPTLY AND WE LEFT THEM SORT OF HANGING, A LOT OF THOSE COUNTRIES ARE VERY VERY UPSET.

SO OUR ALLIES ARE UPSET AND WE HAVE KIND OF LIMITED OUR STANDING, I THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE A POOR JOB OF CONSULTING WITH THOSE ALLIES AND MAKING SURE THAT THEY CAN GET THEIR OWN TROOPS OUT EFFECTIVELY SO I THINK WE HAVE YOU KNOW HAD SOME ISSUES THERE AND I THINK THOSE ISSUES ALSO WITH RUSSIA AND ALLOWING THESE CYBER ATTACKS AND NOT REALLY TAKING IT TO THEM, SO I THINK THERE'S A LOT THAT'S GOING ON WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION.

I DON'T THINK THEY REALLY HAD A GOOD HANDLE ALL OF AFGHANISTAN AND THEN RUSSIAN AND CHINA.

I'D LOVE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT DOCTOR LEON.

>> I CONCUR BECAUSE IT'S... WHOSE INTERESTS WERE WE PROTECTING?

THE INTEREST OF RAYTHEON.

WE'RE PROTECTING THE INTERESTS OF BOEING, WE WERE PROTECTING THE INTERESTS OF LOCKHEED MARTIN.

THIS WAS REALLY A MONEY LAUNDERING SCHEME, IS WHAT IT WAS.

EL JEFE, WHAT I CALL EL JEFE, DICK CHENEY, THEY NEEDED A WAR.

AND THEY WERE DETERMINED TO HAVE A WAR.

AND THEY WANTED TO USE AFGHANISTAN AS THE PRETEXT OF GOING INTO IRAQ.

AND WE DID NOT HAVE TO INVADE AFGHANISTAN, WE COULD HAVE -- IF AL QAEDA AND THEN OSAMA BIN LADEN WAS REALLY THE MISSION, WE COULD HAVE GONE IN WITH A MUCH MUCH MUCH SMALLER FOOTPRINT AND WE COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE, IN FACT... >> [DEBORAH] AND POSSIBLY COME OUT EARLIER.

>> AND COME OUT A WHOLE LOT EARLIER AND SAVED A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY.

IN FACT IF OSAMA BIN LADEN WAS ACTUALLY THE MOTIVATION, OR PART OF THE MOTIVATION FOR CONTINUING THE FIASCO, THEN WHY WHEN THE TALIBAN WANTED TO TURN OSAMA BIN LADEN OVER TO THE UNITED STATES.

THE UNITED STATES DID NOT ACCEPT THAT OFFER?

AND THE REASON WAS L HALF.

DICK CHENEY AND DOUGLAS FEITH RICHARD PERLE AND SCOOTER LIBBY ALL OF THOSE FOLKS THEY HAD ALREADY MADE UP THEIR MINDS OF WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO, AND THERE WAS NOTHING THAT WAS GOING TO TURN THEM AROUND.

AND IT'S THAT TYPE OF ACTION, AND THAT TYPE OF JUST THOUGHTLESS RECKLESS BEHAVIOR THAT IS PULLING OUT OF THE JCPOA FOR EXAMPLE, IS GETTING OUR ALLIES TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU FOLLOW AMERICA DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE, AND IT'S NOT A VERY GOOD PLACE FOR YOU TO BE.

>> THERE'S CERTAINLY A LOT OF HISTORY TO BE LEARNED TO BE RESEARCHED AND THANK YOU FOR THOSE COMMENTS, THANK YOU FOR THOSE REFLECTIONS.

THIS WEEK AS ANOTHER 200 AMERICANS AND FOREIGNERS WERE PERMITTED TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN, IN COMMUNITIES IN AMERICA, INCLUDING RALEIGH AND DURHAM HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA PREPARE FOR NEWLY ARRIVING AFGHAN REFUGEES, OUR ATTENTION AND RESOURCES ARE REDIRECTED HOME AND TO EVENTS THAT EVOLVED HERE OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS.

WHILE FIGHTING FOR DEMOCRACY ABROAD IN THE U.S., WE WITNESSED THE EMERGENCE OF BLACK LIVES MATTER OF ANTIFA, QANON AND RISE IN DOMESTIC TERRORISM AND HATE CRIMES AS WELL.

STEVE WHEN WE CONSIDER THE ABSENCE OF DEMOCRACY OR THE LEVEL OF ABSENCE OF DEMOCRACY IN PLACES LIKE AFGHANISTAN.

HOW SHOULD WE VIEW OUR FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW DEMOCRACY -- THE JOURNALIST FAREED ZAKARIA HAS WRITTEN SOME OPINIONS ABOUT THIS CALLED THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIBERAL DEMOCRACY AND A-LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, AND SO FIRST OF ALL A GOOD THRIVING DEMOCRACY WORKS IN A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, WHICH IS WHERE YOU HAVE A STATE THAT IS STRONG A SECURE GOVERNMENT THAT PROVIDES ORDER, ELIMINATES CHAOS, AND AT THE SAME TIME A SOCIETY THAT RESPECTS THE CIVIL RIGHTS, CIVIL LIBERTIES, FREEDOM EXPRESSION, ABILITY TO USE THE INTERNET, EXPRESSED REVIEWS.

AND THE GOVERNMENT'S DEMOCRACIES HAVE WORKED WELL WHEN YOU HAVE BOTH, BUT THEY'RE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

AND SO THE CHALLENGE IN IN AMERICA IS IN ORDER TO CONTINUE TO PRESERVE OUR DEMOCRACY.

WE HAVE TO HAVE A STRONG STATE, BUT YOU KNOW THESE ORGANIZATIONS LIKE QANON AND LAWS FROM GENERAL ASSEMBLIES WHO ARE ANTI PROTEST LAWS.

THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR AMERICA, BECAUSE WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE SENDING AN EXAMPLE TO THE WORLD THAT WE ARE A REPUBLIC, WE ARE A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY.

AND YOU KNOW THE CHALLENGE DEBORAH IS THAT AROUND THE WORLD WE'RE SEEING SO MUCH DESTRUCTION IN DEMOCRACY BECAUSE YOU HAVE THESE ELECTIONS, AND THEN YOU HAVE DICTATORS.

HOW MANY -- VENEZUELA, HUNGRY, TUNISIA, HAITI, THE LIST GOES ON AND ON RIGHT?

>> THANK YOU YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT RESPECTING CIVIL LIBERTIES HERE, HAROLD, YOU KNOW ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HELPED THE PUSH FOR CIVIL RIGHTS BACK IN THE 1960'S WAS THE APPEAL TO PROTECT OUR REPUTATION AS INDEED RESPECTING THOSE CIVIL LIBERTIES.

YOU THINK THAT KIND OF APPEAL IS AT WORK TODAY OR CAN WORK TODAY AS PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE REDUCTION OF CIVIL LIBERTIES?

>> I THINK IT COULD WORK TODAY, I THINK THE IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THE APPEAL IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WAS YEAH DOCTOR KING AND OTHERS WERE SAYING THAT WE ARE A NATION FOUNDED ON THESE PRINCIPLES THAT ARE GOOD THESE PRINCIPLES THAT OUR RIGHTS ARE UNALIENABLE THEY COME FROM GOD THAT EVERY MAN IS CREATED EQUAL, AND EVERY PERSON IS ENTITLED TO LIFE LIBERTY AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

THESE ARE GOOD PRINCIPLES.

BUT WE AS A NATION WHEN WE JUXTAPOSE SOME OF THE THINGS WE'RE DOING, WE HAVE TO SAY, "ARE WE LIVING UP TO THAT?"

I THINK THAT WAS GOOD IN THE 60'S AND WE COULD USE THAT NOW.

I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM NOW IS THAT IF SOME FOLKS ON THE LEFT.

THAT'RE SAYING, "NO NO NO " IT'S THE ENTIRE THING IS BAD," THOSE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES ARE BROKEN FROM THE INCEPTION AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE START THIS FIGHT ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW IS THE INCEPTION OF OUR COUNTRY JUST AND GOOD I THINK THAT SORT OF ARGUMENT THAT WE THAT KING HAD OF OF WE HAVE A GOOD IDEA, THE AMERICAN IDEALS GREAT.

BUT LET'S LET'S LIVE UP TO THAT I THINK WE OUGHT TO DO THAT NOW AND KEEP PRESERVING OUR DEMOCRACY THAT WAY.

I DON'T THINK THAT THESE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURES NOW MAKING LAWS - THEY'RE ELECTED, DULY ELECTED - AND NOW THEY'RE MAKING LAWS THAT HALF THE COUNTRY DOESN'T LIKE, THAT IS DEMOCRACY.

THAT IS WHAT DEMOCRACY IS ABOUT, ABOUT ELECTING LEADERS AND MAKING LAWS JUSTLY, SO I DO THINK OUR DEMOCRACY STRONG, BUT I THINK THAT WE COULD LOOK AT WAYS THAT WE USED CIVIL RIGHTS IN THE PAST.

>> DOCTOR LEON IS THE DEMOCRACY STRONG HERE?

ARE WE HEADING TOWARD A POSITIVE DIRECTION IN TERMS OF THE PEOPLE WINNING WHEN WE SEE VOTING RIGHTS BEING IN A RESTRICTED WITH THESE NEW LAWS BEING PASSED, THE RIGHT TO PROTEST BEING RESTRICTED AND PENALIZED BY JAILING AND THEN WE ALSO WITNESS WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6TH.

ARE WE INDEED SEEING DEMOCRACY IN ACTION?

>> WE'RE SEEING DEMOCRACY IN ACTION FOR SOME, UNFORTUNATELY FOR MISTER GEORGE FLOYD IN FOR BREONNA TAYLOR OR AHMAUD ARBERY, DEMOCRACY FAILED WITH EXTRAJUDICIAL KILLINGS AND SO CIVILIAN SINKING MINUTES, OKAY, TO SHOOT PEOPLE DOWN IN FRONT OF THEIR HOMES BECAUSE THEY'RE JOGGING THROUGH THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS.

YOU CAN'T SAY THAT DEMOCRACY IS WORKING FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR IN THIS COUNTRY AS WE'RE LOSING ACCESS TO THE FRANCHISE IN TEXAS AND IN GEORGIA.

WHY IS IT THAT WE ARE STILL STRUGGLING TO GET A ANOTHER VOTING RIGHTS BILL PASSED IN THIS COUNTRY IN 2021 WHEN WE WERE GRANTED THE RIGHT TO VOTE?

>> WHY INDEED?

WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT TODAY, I ALWAYS ASK MYSELF IT'S LIKE -- >> [DR. LEON] NOTHING!

>> -- THAN SAY BACK IN THE 1960'S WHEN THERE WEREN'T THOSE RIGHTS AND THERE SEEMED TO NOT EVEN BE A HOPE SO WE SEEM TO BE ABLE TO GET MORE DONE AS A PEOPLE BACK IN THE 60'S OR AM I WRONG ON THAT?

>> WE WERE ABLE TO GET MORE DONE LEGISLATIVELY.

BUT YOU CAN'T LEGISLATE PEOPLE'S HEART AND YOU CAN'T LEGISLATE PEOPLE'S ACTION.

SO ONCE THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WAS PASSED, ONCE THE FAIR HOUSING RIGHTS ACT WAS PASSED, ONCE THE EQUAL EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS ACT WAS PASSED, THEN THOSE THAT WERE AND ARE IN OPPOSITION TO THOSE CIVIL RIGHTS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD DO TO UNDERMINE THEM, AND THEY ARE STILL AT WORK TODAY.

I GOT TO TAKE IF I COULD TAKE A QUICK STEP BACK TO A POINT TO STEVE MADE WHEN HE MENTIONED DICTATORS, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHO AMERICA BACKS AND THE DICTATORS THAT AMERICA OPPOSE AS YOU MENTIONED VENEZUELA NICOLAS MADURO IS BELOVED IN VENEZUELA.

HE WAS DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED.

HUGO CHáVEZ, HIS PREDECESSOR, LOVED IN VENEZUELA.

IN FACT WHEN THE UNITED STATES TRIED TO DEPOSE HIM, VENEZUELANS TOOK UP ARMS TO DEFEND HIM.

YOU MENTION HAITI, THE UNITED STATES TRAINED SOME OF THE ASSASSINS THAT WENT IN AND ASSASSINATED MOISE SO IF YOU LOOK AT -- THERE WAS A COUP IN GUINEA.

SUNDAY.

US FORCES AFRICOM TRAINED, THOSE FORCES.

SO THE UNITED STATES JUST LET THESE COUNTRIES DO WHAT THESE COUNTRIES WANT TO DO.

AND STOP THIS WHOLE BASIS OF NEO LIBERALISM, NEO COLONIALISM WHAT GEORGE BUSH CALLED AMERICAN INTERNATIONALISM (I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HECK THAT MEANS.)

AND ALLOW THESE COUNTRIES TO OPERATE AS COUNTRIES A LOT OF THIS THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH NOW FOR EXAMPLE IN TERMS OF ISLAMIC TERROR, WE WOULDN'T BE DEALING WITH THIS IF THE UNITED STATES HADN'T GONE INTO IRAN IN 1953 IN OVERTHROWING THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRIME MINISTER MOHAMMAD MOSSADEGH SO THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO PRACTICE WHAT IT PREACHES.

>> WELL WE'RE PROTECTING AMERICAN INTERESTS WOULD BE THE ARGUMENT, FOR INTERFERING IN ANY OF THESE COUNTRIES.

>> MILITARY INTERESTS IN FACT IF YOU GO BACK TO 2020.

THE CEO OF BOEING WAS ASKED WHO DOES HE PREFER BETWEEN TRUMP AND BIDEN?

HE SAID IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE BOEING IS GOING TO GET PAID ANYWAY, AND THEY MADE - THE DEFENSE SIDE OF BOEING MADE 6.6 BILLION DOLLARS IN THE 3RD QUARTER OF 2020.

AGAIN, THIS IS A MONEY LAUNDERING OPERATION, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY, IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH AMERICAN HEDGEMONY.

>> WELL YOU'VE GIVEN US A LOT TO THINK ABOUT AS THEY SAY FOLLOW THE MONEY.

STEVE RAO, DOCTOR WILMER LEON, HAROLD EUSTACE, THANKS TO ALL 3 OF YOU FOR YOUR TIME TODAY AND FOR YOUR PERSPECTIVES.

>> THANK YOU.

MY PLEASURE PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

I WANNA THANK TODAY'S GUESTS.

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FOR BLACK ISSUES FORUM, I'M DEBORAH HOLT NOEL.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

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