>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

Our connection this hour was made in your local temple or your mosque or your church, where there are probably plenty of seats available for worship services.

Not long ago, we talked about the decline in attendance for houses of worship.

Now comes a new survey about how Americans think of themselves, either religious or not religious.

And for the first time in recorded history, fewer than half of Americans, 49%, consider themselves to be religious.

Axios sums it up this way, quote The United States is undergoing one of the world's most dramatic cultural shifts, transitioning from a faith centered nation to one where religion no longer defines the daily lives of most people.

End quote.

And while the shift away from religiosity has been happening for decades, it's been particularly severe in the last ten years.

Gallup polling finds that there has been a 17 percentage point drop since 2015.

When it comes to Americans who say that religion is an important part of their daily lives.

For a little context, religious attachment is falling slowly around the world.

But almost nowhere is it falling as quickly as it is here.

This is unusual.

The last ten years marked something rare in the world, a country turning away from faith in such a significant way.

So what does it mean to communities?

What does it mean to individuals?

To our national identity, to daily life, to families?

My guests this hour have no doubt a lot to say about that.

And let me welcome them.

Now, Rabbi Peter Stein is senior rabbi at Temple Beth Kodesh.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you so much, Evan.

>> Welcome to.

Dr.

Abu Sayeed Islam, former president of the Islamic Center of Rochester.

Thank you for being here.

>> It's my pleasure.

>> And welcome to Reverend Colin Pritchard, pastor of the Presbyterian Church of Geneva.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you.

Good to be here.

>> I think, Reverend, you and I have talked in the past about declining attendance on Sundays in the pews.

It's not exactly the same question that Gallup is asking.

>> Correct.

>> How do you self-identify, religious or not religious.

But in general, when you saw some of this data, what went through your mind?

>> so it matches with what I've seen and what I've seen in the denomination in the national conversation.

it is a it's a similar data point to our local reality.

our congregation in particular is kind of holding our own, but that that makes us a little bit different than, than most at the moment.

and we have some huge advantages being in a city and an established congregation and such like that.

so it was not surprising.

It does seem real.

And it's I think it is also illuminating some things that were already true.

We just now have cultural permission to say them out loud.

>> For example.

>> I think there was an awful lot of folks who considered themselves kind of culturally religious, or it was just a social nicety or an assumption.

I'm representing sort of the the American majority religion in the Christian witness here.

Most folks most of the time would say, well, of course I'm American and I'm Christian.

That did not necessarily align with actual attendance or belief structure or sort of a discipline discipleship.

It was an identifying marker in the last decade or so, I think there's been a lot more cultural permission to be a little more honest or a little more free.

There is less shame involved in saying that I am not a religious person.

and so a lot of folks who may have claimed it before but didn't behave that way now have a much more sort of social permission or freedom to just say, actually, I don't.

so I think some of those numbers are representative of something that was already true.

It's just a more unveiled.

Now.

>> One other point before I talk to your colleagues, I want to stay in this thread.

I understand the idea that something is happening that might be convincing people.

You know, I used to say I was religious.

Maybe I was baptized and a Christian family, but I don't really attend or I don't really think about religion in my daily life.

But now I can say it.

however, just looking at sort of the big national picture here, the president of the United States has made a lot about, you know, ostensibly being a Christian in the last decade, but certainly doesn't in the decades of his public life that we can see appear to have, you know, an ardent religiosity.

So but he's not in that category of people who say, well, now I can say I'm not.

He says, he is.

So what is it that is happening that is convincing people that they can now have sort of social permission to admit that they're not religious.

>> Yeah.

So there's there's a couple strains of things going on there.

Okay.

one of which is the political expediency of aligning yourself with the majority religion of a nation.

and Christian nationalism is a huge conversation that has been extremely destructive to this conversation.

and so I think all we need to do is see public records to know that the president is not particularly well-versed or articulate in Christian expression, but very conveniently uses the language when it is politically expedient.

>> You mean when he's asked what your favorite Bible verse is and he says all of them?

>> Yeah.

Or holds the Bible upside down or misquotes.

>> Okay, okay.

>> Favorite scripture.

>> I hear what.

>> You're saying.

so I the I think that's more of a political conversation than an identity conversation.

I believe some of this is, is really generationally driven.

and so as, as next generations come up, there is more freedom to be clear about some uncertainty or a broader sense of of an identity.

>> Okay.

Dr.

Islam, first thoughts from you when you saw the new data here, what goes through your mind.

>> So that data, of course, it's a definitely applies to entire USA for all the religion religions practices.

But I don't think that's a reflection of the Muslim community in USA.

Interesting.

As you may know that currently the Muslim population in the USA is just over 1% and it is projected to grow to about over 2.1% or 8 million by 2050. locally in Rochester as well.

We I think we have over 25,000 Muslims.

And just if I take my mosque as an example, the Friday prayers, which has the largest congregation we are having difficulty accommodating even with two congregations, one after another, we probably have to add a third one and each each congregation can accommodate over 1000 people.

So we are having difficulty accommodating the number of number of people who wants to participate in the programs of the Islamic centers or mosques.

Now, with the caveat, the majority of this growth has come from the immigrant population.

The real interesting question would be when we come to the next generation, when all this Islamic centers and masjids are under the management and attendance of the next generation, what happens to the statistics?

To me, that is a bigger question and that we don't have the answer yet.

And also the question that you're asking that whether somebody is religious or spiritual.

I don't think that is that totally applies to the Muslim community.

A better question would be, are you a practicing Muslim or a non-practicing Muslim?

So people may answer more to that than religious and non-religious.

So again, I think the statistic for Muslim community is different than the Gallup poll.

That said, for the overall religious numbers in USA.

>> Yeah, I was reading a piece recently after the kerfuffle of comedians around the world going to Riyadh and one of the cultural writers who attended was saying that, boy, you know, Saudi Arabia is becoming much more secular.

And obviously it's a very different situation where you have you know, sort of more of a, a culture that in Saudi Arabia that is unlike the United States, where there's 1%, as you say, Islamic, a different percentage.

Rabbi probably knows what the percentage of Jewish Americans is in the culture.

But, I mean, it's a it's another minority religion.

Obviously, it's different in Saudi Arabia.

What you're indicating, I don't know if you're implying that you think future generations will be less self-identifying as a practicing Muslim in this country with time.

Do you think that do you think that will happen?

Is that a natural course of events?

>> I'm concerned about it.

That's okay.

And I can explain later why I think it is, but I'm concerned about it.

>> Okay.

and and Rabbi Stein, Dr.

Islam makes, I think, an important point to on the way you ask the question probably matters here.

If you ask someone, are you a religious person?

Do you or do you think of yourself as a religious person?

Versus are you a spiritual person versus are you a practicing Muslim, Jew, Christian?

Probably.

You get different answers, right?

>> Absolutely.

I think the way you ask the question, it's the words that you use.

And I think for many the word religion implies certain senses of obligation or certain activities that one might participate in weekly worship being probably the primary example.

And when you use a word like spiritual, my experience is there are many, many people who identify as spiritual.

They have a sense of morals and ethics, that are derived from a sense of God's presence, but it's not necessarily linked into the same kind of religious obligation, whether it's weekly worship or otherwise.

The Jewish community has always had a little bit of a distinctiveness in this regard because of the secular nature of so much of the Jewish community.

Judaism as a culture, Judaism as a sense of belonging that is wholly separate from religious obligations.

So it's always been something, that is a little bit different.

And at the same time, there's no doubt that the Jewish community across the country is having that same trend of less participation in the formal activities, like weekly worship on a Friday night or Saturday morning.

>> Are you concerned about the overall just the general declining self-identification that Americans have here?

>> I'm concerned on the one hand, because I think that there is something really valuable and really important about being part of a faith community.

And at the same time, I would say I'm not concerned because I do sense that people are seeking it out.

They're just seeking it out in a different way.

The spiritual, religious distinction, participating in social or cultural activities versus religious or ritual activities.

I think people are really hungry for a sense of identity, a sense of community.

in American history, certainly look back to after the 9/11 attacks in the Jewish community.

Look back over these last several years after the Tree of Life attack in Pittsburgh and the tragedy in Israel two plus years ago.

People are hungry for a sense of community and a sense of connection.

>> So maybe that's a good place to ask all three of you when you've got fewer people attending.

And again, at the Islamic Center of Rochester, that's not currently a problem.

The problem is finding enough space.

I take the point there, but when you are a shrinking physical community, and that often is reflected in people either not bringing their kids, kids becoming adults, not going.

There's a lot of talk about Gen Z. And there was the, you know, sort of the last six months, there was a lot of these thought pieces on what Gen Z actually has a lot of people who are going back to church, and there's this revival, and the data just doesn't show it.

The data is a little stronger than the anecdotes we get with Gen Z. So what is the cost for a community when we aren't together in person, whether it's to worship or to pray or to really just commune in different ways?

I'll start with you, Rabbi.

What's the cost?

>> So on the one hand, I mean, you talk about being in-person.

I think we have a moment in time where there's a tremendous opportunity to connect in all different sorts of ways, whether it's zoom or other online resources, even texting.

When I text with members of the congregation, it's not the same as sitting in person.

And I still prioritize the in-person conversation.

But there's no doubt that someone can have a significant point of connection other than in person.

There are certainly challenges that come.

We're seeing lots of participation by young families bringing their children.

That is actually a growing number for us in a significant way, but it also carries with it something else, which is the way that they're participating, getting to sort of things like the financial model, the model for charitable giving within the community that is changing in a significant way.

>> Dr.

Islam, when you said that you are concerned that in the future there will be sort of a similar trend at the Islamic Center, which which you currently don't see, but why in the future?

Are you concerned?

What is the cost to a community that doesn't come together in this way?

>> So I think you know, people can get together like Rabbi Stein said, that they could get together on zoom or they can get together in a club.

There are many places to get together.

Why should they get together in a place of worship?

I think the main reason is that their religion teaches them certain values, certain solutions to the problem set, and they want a shared space where they want to see, they want to feel even they may not say it.

How are other people coping through the solutions to the problem they have?

With the same teachings that I have, I think that's a shared experience.

That's why they want to gather.

Of course, there are other spiritual reasons.

Reasons why they're more rewarding.

Prayer, praying in an Islamic center than at home that's there.

But but without saying it, they feel like I want to be with somebody who's going through similar situation following the similar teaching.

Now, going back to your other question, why I'm concerned, I think why?

Let's look at the demography of the USA.

Why is religion declining?

It's my personal opinion, but so be it is that I think for a longer time our religious teaching or the practice in the centers where I'll talk about Islamic centers and I think it applies to other faiths as well, is too much on the scripture.

I think you can give sermons that, hey, Abraham walked on fire.

This disciple took this torture to say God is one.

Those things are we should learn.

And but how does it apply to the situation today that the generations are going through?

I think that translation piece is missing, and I saw similar.

I participated for decades in interfaith community in Rochester, and I see some similar trends that most of the interfaith programs people are attending who are in the retired age, young, not young people.

Young people want to see how does the teachings that I'm getting applies to social justice, human rights, equality.

And that's the piece they miss.

And when they see this difference, they seek other opportunities.

See, Gen Z is a different.

So for our generations, we learn something from our parents, from our pastors, from our teachers.

And even though we didn't agree, we said stayed quiet and we followed it.

Right now we see the benefit.

Of course, but Gen Z's when whenever they cannot connect, they find other opportunities.

And I think that is what's happening in USA.

And if we don't correct that, the Islamic Center, those kind of problems, I fear we may come across similar situations.

>> So maybe now's a good time to read an email I got this morning before this program.

on this subject that I think relates to that, and I'd love to hear all of you on this point here.

Jen emailed to say my parents stopped going to church when I was in middle school.

I was relieved at the time.

I always thought church was so boring, like a penalty.

The readers didn't seem to understand the passages they were instructed to share.

The songs were stilted and long.

My parents still identify as Catholic, but we don't really talk about it.

And I have to say, I actually now miss parts of it.

Not the boring stuff, but the way we gathered together in person.

I saw people in church that lived on my street, and I otherwise wouldn't have gotten to know them.

I saw classmates, I don't know that I would self-identify as a religious person myself.

I'm prone to praying in a crisis.

I'm unsure about the existence of God, but I do wish my kids had a community to join.

That's from Gen, so there's a lot there.

But part of what I'm hearing you say, Dr.

Islam, is when, especially with Gen Z and I don't know which generation Jen's in, but especially with Gen Z, if you are hearing passages read from a book that you don't feel relate to your life, then you might be out.

And Jen was kind of saying the same thing to her.

It was a penalty to have to go to a house of worship.

Growing up here.

Yes.

Doesn't sound like that's going to attract a lot of people to come back.

>> No.

And that's why I think for all the faith traditions, look, I mean, we call an Islam that faith is actually what the term we call fitra.

That means that it's in us.

Even if you're if you don't believe in any formal religion, when something terrible happens, you will see people saying, oh God, something comes, comes out of us naturally, right?

Even without any formal training.

So we all seek some kind of faith.

But then when we see that the faith teachings.

And on top of that, another point I want to mention the practice of the leaders.

Now that leaders could be our parents, it could be our clergy, it could be our political leaders.

When they're saying about these faith traditions and they're not practicing them themselves.

Now, this Gen Z's are much more exposed to that.

When we ever were with their Instagrams and all the social medias, they see it blindly.

They said, really?

You taught this and this is what you do.

I want nothing of it.

So I see that a lot from and that's what I learned from my children as they were growing up through the school systems here.

>> Pastor Pritchard, I'm thinking of Jen's email, and I'm thinking, you know, this is going to be another letter from Paul to the.

>> And I have to say, I can relate to the idea that I think the letter that was just read doesn't have much context, or the reader doesn't really understand it.

And Jen was saying that kind of lost her as a kid, although in a weird way, she misses it.

How do you miss that?

What am I missing there, pastor?

>> I think there's there's some inherent value to gathering.

there's one piece of just acknowledging another with some sort of honor and praise is of essential value.

Right.

There's a power to gathering in community because you might just actually learn something.

There can be a blessing and a corrective there for yourself.

one of the challenges with being sort of spiritual and not religious or totally independent in your expressions of what is divine and seeking that which is holy as you, you really run the danger of making it up just for yourself.

a lot of it can be powerful and very real and important experiences.

But in the absence of a conversation, how do you know where the correctives come and where the connection to a holy story might fit in?

and if you're if it's totally independent, you don't.

And sometimes the best and most profound spiritual lessons come from a little bit of a corrective and a conversation with somebody else.

it's like having an editor for a wonderful document.

It's better when you're done and you can't edit unless you are together.

it also then means that you are when you are in community, you have the opportunity to be a direct blessing to somebody else.

And that doesn't happen as an independent activity.

>> Did you want to jump in there?

>> I think there's there's a balancing act and an obligation that we have, which is there's something very powerful about the idea that we are continuing a chain of tradition that that goes back thousands of years.

We've inherited it.

There's something that's a real point of pride to say, we're not doing this all by ourselves.

Our parents, grandparents, back through the centuries, but we can't simply rest on that or focus on that ancient history.

We have to make sure that what we're offering, whether it's in the worship setting, the study session setting, or whatever else, that is something that is relevant and right for today.

So as one example, I'm offering an adult education series right now on the biblical prophets.

And what we're doing is we're going back and forth between reading a biblical prophet and the writings of modern day social justice leaders.

So we're not simply looking at these holy books that are 1500 years old, which you can do with with great meaning, and cull out the beautiful messages.

But to me, I'm being very intentional about saying, here's something that was said in the time of the biblical prophets, and here's something that was said in our own time, and try to to glean the connection from that.

>> Yeah.

And the next, this generation coming up is, is very, very aware of hypocrisy.

and I think I will speak I will yeah, I will speak only for the Christian church, but boy, do we have a lot of it.

Right.

the public scandals of people who have been lionized and then demonized every time that happens, it is a profound shame.

And there is consequence to that.

People are like, look, I'm not following your leaders.

If your leaders are doing this, fair enough.

and to the emails point church historically is two things.

One, really boring.

Two, at least a generation behind what is culturally applicable in the ways in which people communicate.

We know that to be true.

I mean, how long does it take for the church to catch up to a technology that is no longer relevant?

Right.

and it's just we are way behind because change is hard and people fight to not have the change in what they find to be a holy experience, which could open the doors for a next generation that are claimed to be loved but are not assisted in community.

>> But but let me push a little bit on that point there, because the Gallup polling finds that for the first time ever, fewer than 50% of Americans say they self-identify as religious.

Yes.

And in the scenario you're describing and kind of an outdated church or too many boring services, not enough connection to people's daily lives.

People can reject congregating while still staying home and declaring themselves to be religious.

But that's not happening.

People are both not congregating as much and saying, I'm not a religious person, so it's not just a straight line from one or the other, right?

>> Well, so and this is a defining of terms moment.

Right.

So I think for a lot of folks, when they describe themselves as religion, that is understood as a synonym for institutionalized practice.

Right.

And that's where that spiritual, not religious piece kicks in, that a lot of folks to say they are religious means they are part of a congregation or doing these disciplined activities.

>> So you think if we ask more people, not the question, are you religious?

But are you spiritual?

You think the number would be higher.

>> Than I absolutely do.

>> Higher than 50%.

>> I agree, I think the number would be higher.

And also unpacking.

Well, what do you mean when you say that you are spiritual or not necessarily shying away from the word religious, but trying to take a more expansive or more inclusive definition of what does it mean when you say you are when you are religious at its best, when you look at houses of worship, one of the really beautiful things is that you're bringing together multiple generations and everybody is together and you're supporting one another.

You're celebrating together, you're grieving together.

And that doesn't happen a lot outside of of families.

And so at their best, we're providing that opportunity for the generations to come together.

Even as I say that, one of the trends that is very noticeable within the Jewish community, but I think it's happening in other places is single generation gatherings, especially when you look at the big cities, Boston.

>> Intentionally or not.

>> Intentionally.

So you look at some of the big cities Boston, DC, New York, whatever.

And there are young adult Jewish groups that are gathering.

Oftentimes they are home based.

and it's just sort of an affinity group.

It is just folks who are in their early adult years, in their 20s and their 30s.

And then the question I always ask and try and unpack is, where is that sense of multi-generation what happens when that young adult then becomes someone with children?

What happens when older folks are experiencing death and need people to come around them and support them?

Where is that happening?

So that's why my primary focus has always been in this incredible beauty and power of our synagogues and mosques, our churches being places where all the generations come together and support one another.

>> Do you tell people who want to do these affinity groups that, while well intended, that can cause damage?

>> I wouldn't go so far as to say they cause damage and I am very supportive.

If somebody wants to have, I'll use the term affinity group.

That's fine.

Men's group, women's group, young adults, whatever it may be.

But I also say let's let's try and do that and let's, let's go beyond just what you yourself need in this moment.

>> Yes and yes.

>> And, and think about the broader community.

What are the needs of the broader community?

>> let me work in some more of your feedback on this subject.

Listeners, as we talk about the new Gallup polling that finds fewer than 50% of Americans for the first time ever, self-identify as religious, and I think our guests have been pointing out very appropriately, that that's a very specific question.

It has meaning.

It's not necessarily the same question as whether you consider yourself spiritual, but it does track with declining attendance of houses of worship, especially churches.

Christian churches, temple.

Yes, declining attendance.

>> Yeah.

In general, declining attendance.

But there are some things that are sort of bucking that trend.

>> Okay.

And and then for the Islamic community, they have pretty strong attendance locally.

I imagine that that is the case in a lot of communities across the country, although you're hearing from a former president of the local Islamic center who says they take nothing for granted and they would like future generations to attend in the same numbers.

So that's what we are talking about this hour.

And let me grab a phone call from Keith in Victor.

Hi, Keith.

Go ahead.

>> Evan, how are you doing today?

>> Good.

>>, sir.

All right.

Now, now, before you get angry at me, please hear me out.

>> Oh, boy.

>> I think when you have shows about religion, you should have equal shows about unicorns and leprechauns because all they are is stories and beliefs.

You do not need religion to be a moral human being.

All right, I. agree with that.

You do not need you do not need religion to know what's right or wrong.

You do not need religion for salvation.

You do not need religion to show you somebody needs help.

You need religion to perpetuate religion.

And as we get smarter as humans, we are realizing we don't need religion.

I mean, if you look at Adolf Hitler, he believed he was anointed by God to lead the Aryan race.

If you look at the Inquisition, Catholics thought they were doing well.

and this is all coming from somebody who used to live in a kosher home.

>> All right, hold on for one.

Hold on one second.

Keith, let me just jump in here because I. And I'll let you follow up here in a second.

And I'm not here to shield our guests.

They can take it for the they they've heard all kinds of things.

Okay.

I got an email from Gary who basically said the same thing.

He said that where is Gary's note?

Here, Gary.

He said America should lose its faith.

America was founded on enlightenment principles and offspring of the age of reason, of reason.

Give me Dawkins, Hitch and Harris any day.

He's talking about the so-called new atheists.

And the New atheists were new back in around 2005.

Christopher Hitchens has passed, but Sam Harris is still doing his thing.

Keith, I read all the New Atheists and I found a lot of their work pretty appealing.

for a long time.

And I think there's you absolutely can be a moral person if you are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, if you are atheist, if you're a self-styled anything, a spiritualist, a deist, whatever.

Yeah, you can be a moral person.

You can be kind, you can be a community oriented person.

You can look out for the welfare of others.

You can be giving and generous, and you can be selfish in any of those categories.

Yes, I agree with that.

As I've gotten older though, Keith, what worries me maybe the most is this doesn't matter what my own religious views are, or how they've changed, or how they continue to change and evolve.

I am worried about the way that we don't see each other as people, and we don't see each other in physical spaces anymore.

We live online.

We might go to work and come back home and close the door.

How many people know the names of their neighbors?

Three doors down?

When's the last time people had a conversation with someone who lived more than next door?

And to Jen's email from earlier, she used to see her neighbors in church.

She used her kids, used to see their friends there, and that was a place for them to see each other.

So as I've gotten older, I am deeply concerned with how disconnected we are.

And I'm not telling you that your view about religion has to change, that you have to stop thinking about it as believing in ghosts or unicorns or whatever you said.

But at the same time, I want you to see that when there is love and and good leadership, there is tremendous value in community that can go alongside even some of the doctrine that you don't believe.

Keith.

I mean, you've got to believe there's something good that there can be.

Do you.

>> Know?

Well, to be honest with you, could there be something good with religion?

Sure.

Could there be something good with Boy Scouts?

With volunteering?

I mean, I just had a meeting last Friday to figure out my volunteering schedule at Christmas time that I'm doing for local nonprofit organization.

That has nothing to do with religion.

Can I ask your two guests a question?

>> Three guests?

Go ahead.

>> All right.

For the Muslim guy, did the guys that fly the planes?

>> Come on, man.

>> Wait, let me finish.

Let me finish.

Did they go to heaven?

They thought they were.

And for the pastor, is Donald Trump going to heaven?

Being judged on the way he's treating people in this country?

All right, the answer is nobody knows.

>> Well, I don't disagree with that.

If the conclusion is, do we as human beings actually know if there's an afterlife?

I mean, you can feel a lot of certainty in your faith.

You can feel doubt in your faith.

You're right.

We don't know.

I, I don't think it's fair to make our guests answer those questions in this context.

And I'm not trying again.

I'm not trying to shield them.

They can say whatever they want, but that's not the purpose here.

you definitely are free to argue, Keith, that you think religion does more harm than good.

And there's a lot of people who feel that way, and there's plenty of people who see the value.

And it's complicated.

But you look like you wanted to jump in, pastor.

>> Go ahead.

Well, my congregation knows I'm.

I will usually answer the question, okay.

So I think one there's a huge irony in the conversation that just happened or the presentation that just happened which is, I think part of why people reject religion is because it is so affiliated with Judgementalism and exclusivity.

and folks really reject that.

And I think at times appropriately so.

And the tone of what was just shared and the presumptions behind some of what was put forth were deeply, ironically judgmental devaluing a lot of people's way of being in the world while saying, I'm going to assume touched on some principle of religion is a thing that is is hypocritical or judgmental of other people.

and so we just had an expression of one of the things that is often presented as a challenge to religious integrity.

and so the I would suggest the question of who's going to heaven gets to be sort of a divine decision, not our own personal authority, because that makes us idolatrous in nature.

And, Keith, if you want to have that conversation another time, I'm happy to do so.

but some of what represents the extremes really devalues the merit of the middle.

>> Dr.. Islam is anything you want to say there?

>> Sure.

First of all, I'll say that.

Look, even I am not guaranteed heaven, even though if I'm associated with the Islamic center or whatever I practice, there is no guarantee in Islam.

There is no guaranteed salvation.

So definitely so for me to say whether somebody else is going to heaven or not, it's pretty presumptuous.

But going back to his question, somebody who flew the plane, it clearly says in my faith that anybody kills, a person can kill, has killed an humanity.

So that act definitely, that definitely guarantees that person is not going to heaven.

And also going back to your question of do you have to be religious to be a good person?

Look, being good and bad is a human tendency.

They're a good human being, bad human being.

They're good Muslims, bad Muslims.

I won't speak for the other faiths.

I'm sure that applies there as well.

That has nothing to.

do with religion.

That has nothing to do with religion.

That's a human trend.

So our goal again, my faith says there is no compulsion in religion.

So you're free to practice whatever you can.

what happens at the end?

We'll find out.

No point arguing about it right now.

Our our job is with whatever values we have is to practice and do good on earth.

So.

And if you can do it without any faith powers to you.

>> Yeah.

And again, I'll just say, Keith, like I certainly appreciate the idea that it's good to interrogate ideas.

It's good to interrogate scripture.

to better understand passages what they mean, and different communities believe different things about them.

We've talked about that on this program.

I would never shy away from that.

And if your conclusion is this is bunk, that's fine.

That's that is absolutely your own conclusion to make about it.

there have been thousands of religions.

And if your belief is that, it's hard to just assume that you've got the right one and you've got the universe figured out, that's fair too.

I just would ask you to try to be kind.

you know, and try to make space.

Just not that you have to agree with everybody's ideas, but I don't think that the first Muslim leader you meet, you have to say, well, what about the people who flew the planes there?

you know, or Colin, what about Trump account for that pastor?

You know, so I get it, Keith, I do, I promise that.

And I'm trying to show a love here.

anything you want to add, Rabbi, on that point there.

>> So two quick points.

One is I think it's it's very easy to talk about bad actors.

And I'll be the first one to say very quickly, you can't use bad actors to demonstrate the value or the importance of whether it's a religion or any other part of our society, Judaism, separate from that.

Judaism, very much.

does not focus on this idea of going to heaven and is really focused on the way that we act in this world.

And so it's not, in a sense, a question that that is necessary even asked.

But the other piece of it is back to before, when we were sort of parsing religious versus spiritual is what do we what do we mean when we say religious?

And for me, a religious life is one that is focused on social justice.

It's focused on healing the world.

It's focused on the pursuit of of peace and lifting up people who are vulnerable and who are suffering.

And so that's not anything that you have to be religious to do.

But to me, it's the very best example of what it means to be a religious person.

>> So Pascal's wager doesn't even really apply in religious Judaism.

It sounds like.

>> Absolutely.

>> Okay.

And Keith, let me also last point on this.

you sound like the kind of person, Keith, who would really detest the idea of the prosperity gospel.

And I just want to say, if that's true, I the pastor's going, me too.

I share your your sort of feeling of of being repelled by that, but not everybody is in that category.

If you are a Christian, not everybody is in the category of whatever you have in your mind of Islam or Judaism or any or any other faith.

And that's why I try to interrogate that individually, because I want to know what different leaders think.

I want to know what their adherents think.

Last thing, Rabbi, and then I know you got to go.

And what we'll do is we'll take our only break and we'll get more feedback here.

So my last question for you is this.

You said it's important not just to take the bad actors from any sort of either religion or set of ideas.

I do think where Keith might go is to say he feels that religion in general, while not being provably true, also has created more war and more pain and more suffering.

And I think I used to agree.

I know I no longer know if I feel that way.

I don't know, but because I think, let's posit a world where there's no structured belief systems in deities, would there be less war and suffering and division?

I think I used to think, yes.

And I don't know that I do anymore.

Unfortunately, with the human nature.

But I think that's where it would be.

An interesting question to say.

Does religion lead to more bad actors?

Does it cause do certain passages lead that way?

>> I don't think so.

I think, yeah, if you were to imagine a world without religion, then.

>> Would it be without war?

Would it be without suffering?

>> It would.

As much as you might have some of the abuses that would go away, you would also lose a lot of the good things that are done that a lot of the good possibilities that are introduced by religion, whatever that faith is, whatever that religious practice may be, it's whether it's the big dramatic things like wars or whether it's the personal ethical abuses.

Of course, there are bad things that have happened.

We all know the history and can't ignore it.

>> Yes, absolutely.

>> But I think that you would you would lose more than you would gain in this imaginary world without religion.

>> All right, let's let's take this break.

We're going to say goodbye to Rabbi Stein, who's on to other things today.

Thank you for being generous with your time.

>> Thank you so much, Evan, and thank you both.

I'm glad to be with both of you.

>> Thank you.

We're going to come back from this break.

We'll take more of your feedback with Dr.

Abu Sayeed Islam, former president of the Islamic Center of Rochester.

Reverend Colin Pritchard, pastor of the Presbyterian Church of Geneva.

We're talking about new Gallup polling that shows for the first time ever, fewer than half of Americans self-identify as religious.

We'll come right back on Connections.

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Others might say, I don't need that information.

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Well, we're going to talk about a new program at Rochester Regional Health that is all about this and how it works.

Next hour.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Patrick writes in to say.

Now we're quoting Pascal.

Am I in AA2 hundred two level English class?

Pascal's wager?

Patrick.

That was I had an old colleague when I worked at 13.

Wham, who said to me one day he's like, hey, I'm going to church on Sunday, do you want to go?

And I was like, well, you know, probably, probably not to where he was going.

And he says, look, I'm not sure I even believe, but if it turns out when I die that I had to go to church to get into heaven, I'm making that bet.

I'll go every Sunday.

If that's my.

And I'm going, like, do you think I think God would would see through that?

That's just if God is omniscient.

I think Pascal's Wager falls apart.

That's just.

Is that a good bet?

I don't know, yeah.

>> and we I.

>> Will I'm going to church because that's my bet to get into heaven.

What do you.

>> Think we represented?

Or.

I represent a tradition that very much talks about not being saved from, but being saved.

For if you know something beautiful and powerful and valuable and spiritual, then that means you are compelled to live it out in the world.

And grateful response.

Not trying to earn a wager.

You're not running from hell.

You're not trying to earn a ticket to heaven.

You are seeking to represent what you know to be true and beautiful.

>> Yeah, yeah.

Yes, I think that that that way of flipping it makes so much more sense to me.

I have to say, pastor and I mean Dr.

Islam was saying earlier, you don't even view yourself as any sort of guaranteed passage anywhere.

You're trying to live the life that you think is appropriate.

But I think there's something almost cynical about this idea that, well, I'm going to be a religious person because that's what I think I have to do to get the rewards of Paradise as opposed to I want to live in a way that represents value that I see two different things.

Right?

>> Right.

I think going to mosque or any other religious institution does not guarantee heaven.

These are one of many things that is needed.

But, you know, if going to mosque does not make me a better person, that my community is getting benefit from that, whether it is human rights, social justice or equality or any other metrics that you can bring up, treating others, treating neighbors, then that's going to mosque itself is quite meaningless.

And and also so ultimately how we go to heaven.

Only my creator knows and we have examples that, you know, one of one person that who was very bad things doing in his or her life, that person was awarded heaven because that person gave a thirsty dog water when that person was thirsty.

So you don't know what act will take you there.

I believe that this is our effort to do our best to be a better person.

Ultimately, that's how we will be judged rather than this one particular act of going to any building for that matter.

>> and Patrick follows up to say, by the way, no, there would not be less suffering or division if religions did not exist.

We find ways to other you.

You believe in this?

I believe in that.

You must die.

You believe in this kind of science?

I believe in that kind of science.

You must die.

Patrick is saying.

Unfortunately, human beings like to other, and he thinks that would be happening independent of the existence of religion.

Kevin and Victor on the phone next.

Hi, Kevin.

Go ahead.

>> Hi, Evan.

Well, first off, before I say what I was going to say as far as Pascal goes, Pascal was, of course, one of the most brilliant men that ever lived.

Mathematician and philosopher and many other things.

But his little wager there is just not the thing that you would just base your life on simplistically.

But he's just saying that is a intellectual, intellectual and spiritual context for beginning your search for God.

You know, one would one has this possibility and the other one has another.

So it's not people.

People mock it because they really don't understand what he was saying.

>> I probably oversimplified I think you're probably right about that.

>> I mean, yeah, let's say that Pascal is smarter than anyone you'll ever have on the show.

So and he's also someone who had a really deep and powerful conversion in his life.

He went from being kind of a, you know, a dandy to being a very, authentic Christian, but to respond to Keith, I mean, Keith's saying you shouldn't have shows about religion.

I mean, let's face it, you know, I think you need more shows about religion because religion is something that everyone, either in their conscious life or in their unconscious life, is concerned about.

Because, you know, we're all we're all mortal and we're going to die.

And we're concerned about those things and we're concerned about, you know, how God views us in this life.

But I do like I do appreciate some of the things that you've done on religion before, Evan.

And I remember you once talked about your how you visited different churches and you decided to try one.

And, you know, that was just kind of cute and kind of charming, really.

I actually was.

I made you endearing to me, actually.

So I think, you know, you have a I think you have a real deep curiosity about God and about spiritual things.

And as far as religion being toxic, there's been a lot of toxicity in all religions.

I'm a Christian.

I became a Christian when I was 18 after being a very kind of toxic person myself.

I had gotten a lot of trouble, got sent away to a an institution, and I saw human nature close up just how how really evil human nature is.

Kind of when you see it like very, very, very close up.

And that kind of led me on a search for, For God, which I found.

But Christianity has done a lot of stupid things over the centuries.

But if you look at things like abolition of slavery, that was totally spearheaded by Christian people and people like Dorothy Day in the 20th century did just wonderful things in Christian ministry.

you know, there's I would say everyone should just search for the truth, because that's what it all comes down to the truth for your own soul, the truth for the soul of our nation.

just where we're going, where we're heading.

>> Well, I appreciate that, Kevin.

And I think there's something very generous in your call.

And talking about some of what I've said, because the show is not about me.

It's not about what I believe.

I have a responsibility to try to be curious.

And there are times where I fail at that.

And that is not helpful for me.

It's not helpful for anybody.

So thank you for that phone call.

And yeah, I think all day we could talk about the wonderful Christians and Jews and Muslims and Sikhs and everybody else who've done great works over the years.

I don't think we need to reduce it to just a contest of how many bad actors in one category versus how many good actors.

I don't think that that's all that helpful.

I do go back to what Pastor Pritchard said earlier, which is that the more people see hypocrisy, the more they will feel repelled by not only a physical space, a congregation, but perhaps also the set of ideas attached to that.

Is that is that right?

>> Oh, sure.

So if hypocrisy is obviously an issue, the election cycles of the last ten years, which this, you know, survey was.

>> Literally it's the last ten years, right?

Right, right.

>> Yeah.

and some of the scandals of integrity and those kinds of pieces have absolutely been a problem.

It's I would just a quick thought, which is, I think religions at their best contain a truth, but they get at their worst when they try to control a truth.

So that what folks respond to in beautiful and powerful ways, or there is a truth in there, an inherent nature of humanity.

when we try to control it, then we start running into prosperity gospels and wars and those sorts of things.

And the answer to right, what needs to happen to change this trend?

Number one, I'm not 100% sure we need to change the trend.

I do think that the existing congregations and practitioners of faith that contains a truth will do really well to influence society as a third way, by being brave, by having integrity, by having some measure of humility and practicing consistency.

Say it out loud.

Do it all the time.

Remember that you are not God, right?

And when that is practiced and put forth in the world, remember you don't control the outcome, but you do bear witness to what you know to be true.

That works.

>> People see it, people respond to it last minute.

Here, let me ask one final question, which is I think our guests have done a really good job at parsing what it means when people say, I'm a religious person and not a religious person, or at least observing that while that trend may be concerning, it's not there are layers to it.

Certainly.

So what would be the most concerning question if we saw a decline?

There's a decline in people saying, I'm a religious person.

What would worry you the most?

Dr.

Islam, if people said no to a certain question more than just, are you a religious person?

Is it are you a spiritual person?

Is it do you?

What would be the question that would worry you the most?

>> So I think being coming from a muslim faith, the most concerning question is the existing and the uniqueness of God and His messenger.

Really?

And that's what that would be the most concerning question.

If somebody.

>> Said rejecting God entirely.

>> And entirely, and my next level would be, like I said, our next generation, what are they feeling?

They can't go to the mosques or churches or synagogues with their parents.

Follow the trend, follow all these gatherings.

But when they're left to themselves attending or running the centers, what do they believe in?

>> Yeah, the music is on, which means you have to be brief.

What's the question that would worry you the most if we saw a decline?

>> Sure.

so in the vacuum that's created by the absence of that community who steps in and fills it, and I think there's a lot of examples of it being filled poorly.

and we end up with Christian nationalism.

We end up with tribalism, we end up with finding other ways to identify ourselves and further separate as opposed to bless.

>> So maybe a question of do you think your religion should be wielded for power?

>> It's, I think, right.

If people are less religious, then that gap will be filled by other ideologies which are more destructive than life giving.

>> You're both very generous to come in here.

Thank you.

Dr.

Islam, former president of the Islamic Center.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you very much for the invitation.

>> Pastor Colin Pritchard, Presbyterian Church of Geneva, thank you very much.

More Connections coming up on.

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