(upbeat music) - Good evening, and welcome to part three of our interview with Mr. Amos Wilson, Author of "The Developmental Psychology of the Black Child."

Mr. Wilson, in part two, you were talking about the lessons to be learned from the Marva Collins story.

Would you continue, please?

- Yes.

The Marva Colllins story in terms of a black teacher who founded her on school, and who raised the so-called intellectual Functioning of black children to a far beyond what we call, "average functioning."

We made a couple of statements in the previous program around the issue of caring, the fact that this is, I think, one of the major things that was operant in moving her students toward this high level of functioning that she cared, she exhibited love and concern, and high expectations, set high standards.

You see one thing about the psychology that is prevalent about black children, is that they are suffering from a learning deficit, or that they are less motivated or these other kinds of issues that we hear.

It lowers the expectation of the teacher, and the teacher gets exactly what she or he expects from the students.

The whole thrust of what I have been referring to as Eurocentric psychology is to lower the expectation concerning the intellectual functioning of black children and black people in general.

Of course, that was a result of history that said blacks didn't have culture in the whole business.

Now the thing that you find functioning in her school, of course, is the removal of this kind of poisonous philosophy from the minds and psyches of these children.

And she does this through the process we just mentioned.

The other thing that I liked about it, and I like about what she's doing, I should say, is the fact that she's doing it without so-called federal funds, and monies from the so-called federal government, indicating that with a relatively meager amount of resources what can be done, and that the teaching of children, and the elevation of the minds of black children is not determined in any direct proportion by the amounts of money per student spent.

In a direct sense, of course, it has advantages.

I definitely I wouldn't deny that, but it's also, it's not also based upon necessarily the so-called condition of the school, the physical material aspects of the school, as much as it is embedded in human relations.

In other words, equipment, video tapes, and all of this kind of stuff is no substitute for a teacher that cares, that is concerned, that is dedicated, that expects.

And governmental funds will not by the mere issuing of them to black areas, elevate the intelligence of black children.

That has been one mythical liberal solution that has been thrown at black people, that the way to solve a problem is to throw more money at it, and therefore our leadership efforts has been to, if you got a problem, give us more money, you know, this somehow is gonna do it.

It never worked.

As a matter of fact, you almost see a situation where the more money this puts into a system, sometimes the less you get out of it, what's, I guess some economist called diminishing returns.

So in that, in those instances, the control of education that I referred to in the previous thing, that is where black people must control the education of their children, which is illustrated by Marva, the removal of dependence upon the federal government because you don't not only get money from federal government, you get directions, and it is this directions of bureaucracies that too has destroyed the potential of our children.

The concern and love for black children, all of those things are positive.

I had, I have one major reservation about what she's accomplishing there, and that is what I would call the Europeanization process that I see operating there.

- What do you mean?

- The, what I would see is an overemphasis on Europeans scholars, or European authors, you know, the Shakespeares, the (indistinct), to the relative neglect of people of African descent, writers and scholars, and people too, who have done work that should be emulated by black people.

Also, not intentional, I would think on her part, but perhaps inadvertently, the belief that one can achieve intellectual functioning, only by the assimilation of European ideas, and that the assimilation of European literature is the base for which one must build a high intellectual functioning.

I'm afraid that what you will have, is what we have now in too many instances, if you follow the logical progression of what's happening here in the, in that situation, of students who will be functioning very, on a very high intellectual level, but who, in a practical sense will be of little value to the black community.

Because their orientations, their tastes and values will essentially be European, and therefore the work that they do, will essentially support the European structure, and help to maintain European dominance.

To a great extent, this is what you have going on in America today.

The vast majority of the, or at least a large percentage of black children are kicked out of the system because they don't assimilate the European philosophy.

Those few blacks that are let through, are let through at the price of alienating themselves from blackness, and from Afrocentric ideas.

So you have a situation there where you get, may get more black MBAs, Masters of Business Administration, okay, more blacks who are economics majors, and yet you see the black communities crumbling economically.

You get, for instance, you get more black psychologists, and yet you don't see any visible, or any demon demonstrable effect of those blacks in a positive sense, on the black community as such.

It appears then, even though we are educating so-called more blacks, its effects in a positive way on the black community has been negligible.

And I think this is in part due to the fact that blacks are Europeanized, and therefore not trained to think in terms of how their knowledge and information relates to- - Lemme ask you this- - The advancement of black people.

- Get down to solutions.

How, what do you have to do, to begin to get a black child to think from an Afrocentric perspective?

- Well, certainly we would like to have the parent, him or herself, or both of them obviously, to have what we call the Afrocentric view.

And that is a black parent who is familiar with African history and African culture, and who has what we call the goal in mind of advancing the interests of black people in terms of themselves, not just in terms of other people as such.

I think that is a prerequisite.

Certainly, the home environment becomes of key importance here in developing this Afrocentric view, and of emerging the child in things African.

I'm not necessarily one who advocates the preaching of Africanness at children, because quite often it may reverse the very process that you want to bring about as such, but a sort of subtle emergence of the child into the ways of African culture, such as taking them to events that are African oriented, and of course filling the house if possible, with books that have the African orientation as such, or sometimes critiquing the obvious control mechanisms that our parents say in TV, when the child is sitting there looking at it, and to a degree sometimes even shielding the child from programs, such as the "Different Strokes" programs and things of this nature, so that they will not be insidiously.

- What do you think about that program?

- I try not to, to tell you the truth.

- Would you just for us today?

- Yes.

I think it's a bit, it's a dangerous kind of program, frankly, to be honest with you.

- "Different Strokes."

- "Different Strokes."

- Why?

- Because again, it's a program where the paternalism of whites is built in.

And almost the idea that whites can provide a much better paternalistic environment than blacks.

By implication, there is the idea that blacks don't care enough about these kids to have adopted them themselves, or to have taken care of them, or the black family network could not, that those relatives let us say, of those kids would not have taken those children into being.

But the main thing, it's internalizes this concept of the white man as a problem solver for black people, as a man, even in a benevolent way, is going to take care- - The White Shadow.

- The White Shadow is another instance.

Here again, is the great problem solver.

And to a great extent, the problem of our people is the White Shadow.

By that, I mean we're, quite often, we as people are unable to see each other as real, because we more or less look at each other through the spectacles that the White Shadow has placed on us.

And a lot of what we call the so-called lack of unity or struggle that goes on within the black community, is built on false issues that has been handed to us by the establishment as such, through these kinds of programs.

- I think something that probably needs to be to be, to be cleared up is, and that is, I would imagine that when some people listen to us, listen to you talking about the need for Afro-Americans to get into Africa, get into the African identity, whatever, that it is somehow unnatural, and somehow something that that should not be done, and it's offensive to other people.

What about that?

I mean, do people insist that a pear look like an apple or what?

How do you explain that, it's... How do you explain that?

- Certainly getting into the, an African perspective, and by that, I mean not necessarily going back to Africa.

This is, sometimes people confuse "that," when you mention an African perspective, I say an African perspective not only as something you go back to in terms of roots, but as something to be developed as well by African people, you see.

'Cause certainly as wonderful as our historical past is, we certainly have to adjust to the stresses and strains of the modern day world, but that must be developed not as a hand me down philosophy, but as one developed out of our own experience as a people, and our own economic and social situation in the world.

And it's based in upon a cultural, social, political analysis of where we are now with a deliberate and conscious setting up a program for the kind of culture that we want to develop.

So that would be as African, or Afrocentric as the past ones where Afrocentric, say before the periods of colonialism.

That is going to offend people.

And- - But when the Italian speaks of being Italian, what is the difference?

It seems to be, some people say it seems to be okay, but when the black man speaks about being black, it's, it's somehow- - Certainly.

Certainly.

I think the black man speaking of being black is certainly more threatening than say the Italian speaking as Italian or, or French is a Frenchman.

Because in a sense, he, the Frenchman is still European in that sense, and is talking about it within that structure as such.

But when you're talking about, and of course whether it's Italian, or French, or what have you, are still part and parcel of the benefits that the European culture as a whole, gains from maintaining the subjugation of our people.

But when you talk about an African as an African, the implications are that they will no longer be able to exploit us as a people.

That's threatening of course, because they're economic and social order is based upon our exploitation, and therefore in a very human sense, certainly it should arouse anxiety and fear to a good extent when you hear this kind of talk.

The black nationalists is frightening because in many ways, he's, in another way is very much like the white man who is nationalistic, and who's very much concerned about maintaining his group.

And he knows that that involves maintaining power as such.

And so where therefore, when another people begin talking about maintaining their group, and building up their group, it means that that power has got to be redistributed, as well as the economics and social benefits that go with it.

As long as a black though, indicates that he wants to be American, or he wants to be integrated into American, into America, then the, that is less threatening, because it indicates that he is basically going to support the system, and he's therefore not a threat to the system as such.

- As you look at education in this country, in black, in schools, what do you think black parents should expect from these public schools, and what they should not expect to flow from these public schools?

- I think they should expect certainly of what we might call a very solid education.

- In particularly, what I would call the skills, you know, the math, the science and so forth.

They should not necessarily expect these schools to properly educate their children culturally.

I think we should take care of the cultural education of our children ourselves.

I think they should not have to send the children there thinking that the only way they will love themselves is by getting their white counterparts to love them, or seeing the love of their white counterparts as being important to their self image as such.

So in that sense, I think we should see them as more or less the places where we get the technical knowledge and information necessary for us, of course to attain jobs and occupational levels that are desirable for us, and to attain the skills that are necessary for us to develop our own resources and so forth.

But the more spiritual cultural side, we should see to it that we ourselves- - Are independent black schools on the rise in this country?

- Oh yes, I, definitely so.

Sometimes for many, it's the same reason that independent white schools are on the rise as well, because of the fact that we recognize the public school to a great extent, has failed in its mission to properly educate our children.

Also for the fact that the value system is so nebulous, and sometime nonexistent until the character development of the children suffers to a great extent, as well as the cultural sense of the cultural identification of the children suffer too in the public schools, because it's gotten to the point now where there is no reigning kind of cultural ethos in the schools.

- [Interviewer] What do you mean?

- Where, as I we mentioned a program back, where there is no agreed upon set of values that guide the teachers and the students in those.

Also, because the authority level in the schools have been basically taken away from teachers, and as well as parents.

And so there is really hardly any place in the school, for instance, you can really point to that is the center of what is right, what is wrong, what is demanded and not demanded as such.

In the independent school, you see, you can build this kind of thing into the school.

It's built around a definite value system, cultural orientation, political orientation.

And for black people, it's built on a much higher expectation level.

It's not built on deficit psychology, deficient psychology, and it believes in its children, and therefore you get a different kind of product.

Plus the parent apparent in those kind of schools, can have much more of a say, and are quite often a part of the school itself.

The public school, for instance, has become quite alienated from the community to the extent where many barons feel as if what they have to say cannot be heard, and they cannot actually influence in any meaningful way, what is going on in those schools.

- Are there some specific things that you can point to?

If you can't, I'll would understand that, but if, are there some specific things that you can point to, that we as black parents do in our homes, that serve to work against us in so far as our children are concerned?

Are there some specific things?

- Not, I can't think of, of anybody.

And if I were to, I would have to be very cautious, because I try to avoid- - It's not a listing process.

- Right.

And also to avoid the blaming of the victim kind of thing as well.

'Cause pretty much, if the black parent quite often is working against what we might call the "interest," and that's hard for me to perceive of black parents as a matter of fact, doing of our black children.

It's principally due to the kind of propagandizing and brainwashing that has been laid upon the black parent in lowering the expectations concerning our children.

One thing that is of interest, we have done some work, and studied the shows for instance, the knowledge about one's children is what we call positively correlated with their intellectual functioning is, as well as with their psychological functioning.

If there is maybe something that black parents may be doing that's working adversely against their children, it may be due, it may be the lack of real knowledge about the development of black children, and being aware, and being sensitive to those children's growth, and how that growth is related to, as we pointed out in our first segment, the African experience as such.

So in that sense we can see it.

The other instance may be the lack of gaining what I might call very practical knowledge about how goals are to be accomplished.

For instance, when you compare, say motivation levels that is, of black parents, in terms of what they want their children to achieve, and what kind of professions, and things that they want their children to go into, you find that the black parents' motivation is higher than the white parents' motivation in this instance.

So you're not suffering in the black family from what we call aspirational levels, nor, even when you even say look at the aspirational level of black students, you find that that aspirational level too, is higher than white students, you see.

So apparently, what you are liking is not necessarily the psychology of the desire for the child to achieve, but perhaps more of the practical knowledge of how that achievement is to be brought about, which means then, that the parent possibly could gain, could to gain from learning in terms of what is required in terms of their own political action, their own politics in terms of the school, the PTA, for getting what they want for their children.

And I see it then more institutionally oriented then otherwise.

- We're gonna try to summarize a bit- - Yes.

- You talked earlier about the need for, for young people, young blacks to get into technology.

Would you go over that again, please?

- Yes.

We were making, you're making reference to the sort of one sided approach we use, and sometimes in looking at civil rights as the very ultimate thing.

I think there has been a confusion in the black community, of liberation and civil rights, for instance, thinking of achieving civil rights as being equivalent to being free, as such, or as equivalent to being in a position to enjoy the so-called fruits of our life.

But we must not forget that you can, that prisoners have rights, and you can demand your rights, and therefore to not only have rights, does not necessarily mean that one is free or one is in a position to achieve what one wants.

So what we have here, we may have equal opportunity in a sense, say an occupational field, but if we do not prepare our children to master this technological system, then while we may have equal rights on the books, and equal opportunity on the books, we'll have a situation here of still being in a position economically, subordinate to other ethnic groups.

The other thing that we have to look at though is, the real impact on the world, in the world of black people, is not gonna be in the area of rights, as much as it's gonna be in the technological changes that are taking place.

And we must look at those technological changes in terms of where we are going with our children and education, our children.

For instance, we mentioned there's a situation that I was reading in one magazine, "High Technology," that speaks of a Japanese factory that manufactures something like 1300 cars a day, and only has 67 employees in it.

And of course things that are happening in Japan now, where robots are manufacturing robots.

We, as a people must begin to look at these kind of developments, and their impact upon our children and upon us.

In a sense, I think equally with equal emphasis as we look up on civil rights, because we may end up with the civil rights and still end up unemployed.

- You say racism will become less and less of a, of a factor.

- Apparent and obvious racism is going to become, and is becoming less and less of a justification for maintaining blacks and support in positions.

You have one author, for instance, in Chicago who, who has a book I think called "The Decline of Race," or something like that.

- Significance of Race?

- Yeah, "The Declining Significance of Race."

I think though, that is a mythology that's developed because we have again, not understood how whites use mythology to control and maintain control.

- We have two minutes.

- Yes.

Okay.

As such, and for instance, race becomes an important mythology when you want to colonize the people, when you want to enslave the people, and sleep well at night.

So you use racism to justify the position that you're keeping them in by saying, "Okay, they deserved it because they're inferior, they had no culture."

And the whole business that we are so familiar with.

And also to justify your own exploitation.

Now when that exploitation is accomplished, and you have built a network that's based on economics, as the Europeans have built, and you have built a network that's based upon communication systems, and you have reoriented your colonists, colonized people where they value what you have to offer, racism as a means of controlling them is no longer necessary.

As a matter of fact, it reduces your cost, it reduces the obvious conflict, because now control is placed on the basis of other factors.

So now you can pass a equal housing law and say, "Well, you're welcome to get in any house you want to, except the fact you can't afford to buy it."

- Ten, five seconds.

Why am I feeding and clothing this black child?

What's the goal?

- The goal is to make this black child ready to take over the world- and take his rightful in the world.

- if you ask me.

- Thank you, Mr. Amos Wilson.

That's our program.

Thanks for joining us.

(lively music) (lively music continues) (lively music picks up tempo) (lively music continues)