[gentle guitar music] [gentle guitar music] - Welcome to "The Songwriters."

I'm Ken Paulson.

And today we are coming to you from a great studio in the middle of Music Row.

It's called Allentown Studio.

And a lot of great songs have been recorded here.

A lot of great songwriters have had their work recorded here.

And, uh, and many of the members of the Nashville Songwriters Hall Of Fame.

Today, we're delighted to welcome a member of the Hall Of Fame.

A phenomenal artist.

Uh, somebody these, these numbers are amazing, 30 million records sold, and, and, and, uh, six Grammy Awards.

And then on top of that, "The Kennedy Honors Award."

Uh, I can't tell you how glad I am to see you, Amy Grant, welcome.

- Thank you, Ken.

- I, um, you've long been a part of my record collection against all my desires, you know, what I mean?

[laughs] - Honestly, I was that kid who thought Christian music was lame.

- Yeah, sure.

- And and then, I heard, "Angels," and it was, it was like this wake-up call and it was unlike anything I'd ever heard from the genre and suddenly on my, on my music devices, it's Alice Cooper, AC/DC and, and "Angels", you know?

- Oh, my gosh!

That's great.

[laugh] - And it fit perfectly, you know, it just did.

It was- - Yeah.

- And I suspect a lot of people who have- who love music found Christian music through you because- and I think it's because you started at such a young aid- age, you brought a teenager's sensibilities, taste, um, and of course you were signed a record deal at, at 16.

- Mm-hm.

- And you anticipate all these things that would happen to you, the 30 million records- - Yeah, not a thing like that.

[laughs] - What were your ambitions when you're 16 and signed to a record deal?

- Oh, well I, uh, I told no one.

Um, I was not a young woman who sang looking myself in the mirror.

I never- performance was never on my radar.

I loved music.

I loved going to coffee shops in Nashville, that had music.

I mean, if you love songs, this is a great place to grow up.

We had a course in our high school, the month of January and when I was a freshman, I took a song writing course.

And then another year, I took an intro to the music business.

And it was done by this one father of a student.

And and he was a banker and he had all kinds of great relationships.

I mean, we went down to Printers Alley, we went to studios, I met with BMI, you know, licensing companies, talent agencies and I, I was just a student in Nashville and then all of a sudden, also while I was still in high school, I was offered a record deal.

I don't think I was great.

I think there were so few people writing any kind of faith music to contemporary kind of- faith lyric to contemporary music.

And I just happened to go to a Hippie Church on Music Row that had a coffee shop where people came and sang.

- That's great.

- And so, you know, I started like, oh, my- [strums guitar] like that, "Angel," song.

It's like, hey, how could I take a story in the Bible and make a song out of it.

- Is, "Angels," that old?

- Yeah, uh, I wasn't in high school but I was in my early 20s, yeah.

- I have to ask, what was your grade in that first song writing class?

- I don't think we got actual grades, it was just a month-long class and we had to write- um, I mean, passing.

That was my first time I was ever in a studio, was at the end of that class, we got to go into a recording studio and record our songs.

And I was like, "Oh, my God!"

And I, yeah- - Did anybody tell you then they saw promise?

- No.

[laugh] - You were, you were just self buoyant.

- Well, I just thought, I would love to someday work in a recording studio and then one of those we called it, 'winterim' at, at my high school.

And one winterim, I got a job, an internship at a studio.

I was looking around here going, my job was so, you know, low, low man on the totem pole.

I would, like, pick people's chewing gum off the microphone stands and empty the trash.

Back then with the 24 track tapes, um, you know, I would have to demagnetize the tape heads and it was nothing fancy but everything about that world was amazing.

And then when I was given the recording contract, I was like, "Are you looking at me?"

[laugh] - But you were a songwriter from the very beginning?

- I was.

- You know, you being 16, let's see, being 16 in that era, uh, was Peter Frampton on your wall?

- Uh, I didn't have any posters on my wall but I did have, ah, Peter Frampton.

- And Bee Gees and- - Yeah.

- So, you were, you were you're very much like every other sixteen-year-old plugged into, uh, sec-, what they call secular music, right?

- Well, yeah, and Jay I don't-, I didn't own any gospel records.

Nada, not one.

I had The Beatles, Elvis, James Taylor, Carole King, you know, the only reason I was writing faith songs was because I went to the Hippie church that had a coffee shop [chuckles] with a stage.

Yeah, and so, then this record company out of Texas wants to launch a contemporary Christian music label and they're trying to launch it with 12 acts and they are beating the bushes, they can't find anybody and somebo-, I guess, somebody told them about me.

And so, they were like, "We're gonna throw 12 noodles at the wall "and will any of them stick?"

- The, um, the writing of a song about faith, obviously, came pretty naturally to you, a, a lot of things you've written about, talk about community, everybody in your original group of music makers were, were friends- - Yeah.

- And and mentors and you were in a very safe place.

And so, I'm, I'm sure the writing songs of faith was a, was source of comfort but now that you are- as accomplished songwriter as you are do you look back and distinguish between how you write a song of faith and how you write a song that's not about faith?

- Ah, in my mind, every song is just about life.

- Okay.

- And I, and for every one of us, I-, to me, the beautiful thing about songwriting is that you can be incredibly vulnerable in a song.

You can speak about your fears, you can s-, s-, speak about your hopes and, and somewhere in there, what you believe or what you hope is true, what you long for, it just folds right in with, "And then he broke my heart and walked away."

You know, it just, it all is there.

It's, it's a platform, or a safe place, for honesty.

- Yeah.

Well, you learned your craft and, um, there were a number of albums and you had a-, you did the, um, unexpected thing of having a rock band and concert behind you which was, was new and probably dangerous [chuckles] in some way.

And then, "Age to Age" came and suddenly the world knew Amy Grant.

Was there a breakthrough there, um, in terms of your performing or songwriting or, or was the world just sort of ready for what you had to offer?

- Um, well, I think, I'm not gonna re-, you know, I just have my experience but you're right.

I, I was surrounded by a group of very talented people and everyone had their unique dream, we all needed each other.

- Hmm.

- Amazing musicians, songwriters.

My sister's husband, my oldest sister's husband, I think I was 11 when they got married.

And when I first started making music, you know, I didn't have a manager.

I think, I put out my first record and I didn't have my own phone number.

[laughs] And so, I got a call from Lakeside Amusement Park that wanted to have a Christian music day.

They didn't even know how to track me down.

I didn't have a booking agent.

So, Brown Bannister was the producer, they called him.

And this is like a favorite story we tell.

He called me, summer, after my senior year in high school, and he said, "Lakeside Amusement Park in Denver "wants you to come sing for $300."

And I was like, "Oh my gosh, "I'm saving for my freshman year in college.

"My parents are paying tuition "but I got to have all the extra cash.

"If I blow $300 just to get to go sing at Lakeside, [laughs] "I'm gonna have like $200."

And, you know, and he said, "No, they're offering to pay you."

[chuckles] - So, yeah, it's just like everything was kinda backwards and no one was- we were all learning simultaneously.

But I-, so, so my sister's husband said, "Amy, there're probably a lot of crooks.

"Let me just field the phone calls.

"And so, I was the legal pad in his bottom drawer."

- Huh.

- And then, at some point I was in college and I was singing every week and at some point, he came and said, "The legal pad has now filled my entire desk "and would you let me be your full-time manager?"

- Wow!

- And we'll do a split of your income, and it was a income loosely, I don't know, know that I was making very much, but, you know, and then I was terrified.

My sister had two kids and I'm thinking, [gasps] "They could, like, they could starve."

[chuckles] - But so, a lot of us that, that loved music that loved creativity- Dan had actually worked on, "The Johnny Cash Show."

- Huh.

- As had another one of my brothers-in-law.

So, there was all kinds of- you know, it's Nashville.

- Yeah.

- Everybody knows somebody, knows somebody, knows somebody.

So, we all worked as a team and it felt very much like a team effort.

All that to say, when I was honored by The Kennedy Center, I knew, I was like, I was like the mermaid carved on the front of the boat and all the hard workers had been in the hole rowing, rowing, rowing.

I practically had to tour to pay my bill from The Kennedy Center because I wanted songwriters, my siblings, my-, all the managers that I'd ever worked with, different producers, I wanted everybody there and nobody was gonna pay.

And so, I was, like, buying tickets, hotel rooms, flights, and that- my current manager, Jennifer Cook, I said, "Oh my gosh, this has been the most expensive award "I've ever gotten."

[laugh] - You're turning down everything else from this point on.

- Well, yeah, but I just wanted the people that had put all the hard work in- - That's wonderful.

- to be there and to say, "This, we all did this."

They're saying, "Yay, me."

But it was all of our work.

- Yeah.

[laugh] You know, you work in an industry where very few stars feel, feel that way but, ah, it's gracious and exactly, a great way to look at it.

Uh, when was the first song in your career- and I'm gonna ask you if you can play any of it, so that may influence your answer.

Um, where you said, you know, I'm a real songwriter now, you know, that, that this is beyond the coffeehouse.

This- I'm really proud of this and I crafted this.

And I-, this is my first really good song.

Is there a moment when you came to that?

- Ooh, I'm gonna have to look back.

Um...

I mean, I kind of felt that way about the first song I ever wrote I was so proud of it.

- Let's hear it.

- Well, it's an open D tuning and I probably don't remember it all, but it was called, "Mountain Man."

- Okay.

- And I remember, I played it at the family table.

I have three older sisters, and I think my grandmothers were there and after I finished it, kind of like the kindergarten teacher would like start the clap under her leg.

[laugh] Somebody started clapping, but nobody cared.

And, um, anyway, but it was, it was a lesson to me 'cause it was a song called, "Mountain Man," and, "I hate to sleep alone," and I was just doing this whole thing and I was 15.

And at that point, you know, I was young, I was a virgin, I was singing all these things of which I knew nothing about.

And I thought that's also the magic of music.

- Hmm.

- And really at some point, really early on, I made the choice.

I said, "I might not be the best singer in the world, "I'm unique because everybody's unique.

"But I'm gonna sing what's true for me "and so that the- whoever finds my music will find me.

"And then if they like something then they'll- "they maybe will be curious about something else."

- That's great.

- There're all kinds of ways to, sort of, think about what you're gonna do.

But, for me it was try to sing your truth.

- Where- when did you write, "Tennessee Christmas?"

- That was, let me see, it would have been July, of maybe of '83?

- Very early in, in your career.

- Yeah.

- The reason I ask is you, you talk about, um, and it's a wonderful answer, you basically write and sing what is true to you.

- Uh-huh.

- And, and, um, it just seems to me that, uh, there are very few Christmas classics and there used to be.

But you think about the last 30 years, 40 years, you know, maybe, maybe, Wham, [chuckles] "Last Christmas".

I mean, there's no, there's no, "White Christmas."

Uh, they're not a-, none of the songs you perform each year at the Ryman but there is "Tennessee Christmas," which I think is as close to a Christmas standard as we have seen in 50 years!

- Oh, I love that.

Well, I wrote that with Gary Chapman.

We were married at the time.

I'd only been married one year.

And, um, and in fact, we wrote that driving South on Hillsboro Road without even a guitar.

And, ah, but- [picks guitar] ♪ Come on- ♪ [picks guitar] ♪ Come on weatherman ♪ ♪ Give us a forecast snowy white ♪ ♪ Can't you hear the prayers ♪ ♪ Of every childlike heart tonight ♪ Yeah.

[gentle guitar music] ♪ Rockies are calling ♪ ♪ Denver snow falling ♪ ♪ Somebody said it's four feet deep ♪♪ Yeah.

I don't wanna-.

Whew!

Got through that much.

I have to relearn it every year.

- It even works in August, that's just the miracle of that song.

- Oh, yeah.

- Actually, I was having a conversation with another songwriter.

I said, "I think the two hardest things to write are, "um, are Christmas songs and patriotic songs."

- Oh!

- They're so full of baggage and, and it's so easy to lapse into cliche and somehow that song escapes all of that.

- Wow!

- And it is truly a standard.

I can't think of anything else, I mean, is there anything you've incorporated in your show that someone else has written about Christmas except, um, well, um, songs about Mary, I guess, have emerged in, um- - Right.

Well, I wrote a song called, "Breath of Heaven" with Chris Eaton.

- Of course.

- And it's interesting because I put out my first Christmas record in 1983 and oddly enough, as someone who enjoyed singing about faith, mostly because it was, um, I think about- these are gonna seem disconnected but they connect in my brain.

But my great-grandfather started Life and Casualty Insurance company, which was WLAC.

- Right.

- Like the first race music ever played in Nashville was played on the radio station that was started because of his insurance company.

But he said, "People live differently "when they feel secure.

"People live more generously."

And I think, the, whole thing for me about singing faith music is, I would say, if someone knew they were loved, they would live differently.

And it was kind of a- because that concept was spoken about in my home, financially.

- Hmm.

- And so, I thought, "What about emotionally?

"What about spiritually?"

If somebody goes, "I don't have to measure up to be loved.

"You mean, I'm just loved just 'cause I showed up?"

And so, when Christmas rolled around and I had had a- um, you mentioned, "Age to Age" that record, it was- and it was the first million selling album by a contemporary Christian artist.

And I think about that because it was such an incredible creative experience at Caribou Ranch, which was a destination recording studio.

All the early Chicago records had been done there.

-Yeah.

- Uh, Elton John had worked there.

Dan Fogelberg did, "Nether Lands" there.

Um, anyway, and we had-, and that was the first record I ever did there and it was just such a great experience.

And that enlarged the platform that I had up to that point.

And with a slightly larger platform, I thought, like Christmas is the one time, even somebody that would never darken a church door, they would sing, "Joy to the World."

And it's funny because even in my young- I was 20 then- and even in that young mind, to go, if I, if I take the songs I'm already writing and lean them toward Christmas and include it, wrap it all up in love- and it's funny because now I'm 62 [chuckles] - And and the music, the popular music I've written will come and go, I mean, but I really think probably what will last longer than anything is the Christmas music.

- Yeah.

- It makes perfect sense.

But, you know, it also is part of your continuity as an artist and that, you took your faith music and then incorporated Christmas into it.

You took your other music, early 80s, and began incorporating the world into it.

You-.

- Yeah.

- You became, um, you know, a, a, a part of this, I wouldn't describe it as rebellion but certainly a hunger to write about other things and to perform about.

- Yeah.

Life is big.

- And that came through on, "Lead Me On", and "Unguarded", and Leopard's- "Leopard Jackets", and, you know, just this vibrant young woman who did not look like anybody's sense of what a Christian artist would look like.

And, and then, before long, comes this amazing set of- group of songs, "Baby Baby", is, um, is probably your biggest tra-, uh, copyright, I would think.

- Yeah.

- And I was, I can remember being so floored after watching your very cute video for, "Baby Baby," and realizing later that, "Baby Baby," was actually about a baby.

[laugh] - I did write it about a baby.

Yeah.

[chuckles] - But, you- you're young.

Was that your first baby?

- It was my second.

Yeah.

- Oh, okay.

♪ Baby, baby, I'm taken with the notion ♪ ♪ To love you with the sweetest of devotion ♪ ♪ Baby, baby, my tender love will flow from ♪ ♪ The bluest sky to the deepest ocean ♪ ♪ Stop for a minute, baby, I'm so glad you're mine ♪ - And also, the cool piano part is Keith Thomas, who I was with last night.

- Oh, wow!

- And, uh, back in the studio, working on something else.

- So- - Yeah.

- So, this had to be a liberating thing for you in so many ways.

- I mean, you were on MTV suddenly, finally, at last.

-Um, and, but also, the subject matter- of what you could write about, what you could record, had broadened dramatically and the world was responding in a very positive place.

That had to be great for you as an artist.

- Um, it was fun.

I, you know, life is everything.

Life is everything and, and, um, and- I mean, the first time I ever got on a stage and singing, you know, my three songs I had written was for- uh, what was it for?

I was a high school student and it was a, a Wednesday morning program and, uh, and I sandwich my little contemporary gospel songs between Carole King, James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, my version of, "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?"

And because to me, everything works together in our lives, you know.

And who we are as people, our failures, our integrity, all that is the story we tell with our lives.

And so, yeah, it felt very freeing to say, "I can write about anything and, "and I have record company's support to get it out."

- You mentioned Joni Mitchell, of course, you had a pop success with, uh, with a song that-, one she wrote in 1970.

- Uh, yeah.

[guitar strum] - Um, you know, about the environment.

- Yeah.

- And, um, wha-, uh, the-, first of all, it had to be very fun record to record.

- When I was walking into Capital Studio in Los Angeles to record, um, yeah-.

♪ They paved- ♪ ♪ They paved paradise, put up a parking lot ♪ [guitar music] ♪ With a pink hotel, a boutique, and a swinging hot spot ♪ ♪ Well, don't it always seem to go ♪ ♪ You don't know what you've got till it's gone ♪ ♪ Now, they paved paradise put up a parking lot ♪♪ Guess who I ran into?

We parked the car and we were headed into the studio and Joni Mitchell was coming out.

- Oh, no.

- I never met her, I was like, whaaaa?.

And, uh, and I said, "I'm, I'm going in today to record your song!"

And she said, "Um, well, why don't you up the cost of the Tree Museum, maybe to 25 bucks."

- Really?

- Yes, and so that- we changed the lyric.

- Wow!

That was so- - The timing.

- That's just cosmic.

[chuckles] "Big Yellow Taxi," yeah, um, it, it-, sadly, it's still so relevant, and, uh- I think the only environmental song before that was Tom Paxton did, "Whose Garden Was This".

and then Joni had the second "E-Day" song, really, uh, uh, "Big Yellow Taxi."

Would you say that she was, uh, formative in terms of you developing your own music?

- Well, I just have always been such a fan of hers.

- Yeah.

- Yes.

- Um, there's a simplicity to Carole King that you don't find in Joni Mitchell, though.

I mean, Joni's a really complex songwriter.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

I think I- I love listening to Joni, I love singing along with Carol and I, and, uh, yeah- - That makes perfect sense.

Um, we are just about out of time, which ah, which ah, I, I regret because your story is so long, and rich, and interesting, and literally decades of evolution as an artist and, uh, what lies in the future for you?

- Well, um, I would love to do another song.

I tour still actively and I'll, I'll walk on stage at night and think, 'I'm singing songs that are 30 years old' 'and I've lived so much life,' and- 40 years old.

And, um, can I sing a tiny piece of a new song?

- No, please play the full song.

We really wanna hear your new song.

- Really?

Okay.

- And you're such an intuitive performer it matches the length of the show, perfectly.

- Okay.

- Unless this is your 12-minute version.

[guitar music] - No, it's not.

[chuckles] Um, so this is a song inspired by a conversation I had with one my- uh, my daughter about whom I wrote the song, "Baby Baby."

- Um, perfect.

- And we were talking about when she was a teenager and we were wired so differently and she didn't wanna talk to me and, and I would try to reach in and she would put walls up- and anyway, she's a dear friend now.

But way back then- [guitar strum] I wrote about back then.

♪ We must look like a couple of strangers ♪ ♪ Sitting in a quiet room ♪ ♪ You've been studying the patterns on the carpet ♪ ♪ I've been studying you ♪ ♪ You kept building higher walls ♪ ♪ I kept busting through ♪ ♪ We've been on this same road together ♪ ♪ But somehow got a different view ♪ ♪ I thought I was telling you I loved you ♪ ♪ I thought I could make it up with words ♪ ♪ I was trying so hard to reach you ♪ ♪ But that's not what you heard ♪ ♪ Oh ♪ [guitar music] ♪ Well, I must sound like a broken old record ♪ ♪ Needle stuck in the groove ♪ ♪ Saying the same things over and over ♪ ♪ Trying to get a message through ♪ ♪ Damn, these words I've always trusted ♪ ♪ Wound up hurting you ♪ ♪ It's only in the aftermath ♪ ♪ We see the damage they can do ♪ ♪ I thought I was telling you I love you ♪ ♪ Thought I could make it up with words ♪ ♪ I was trying so hard to reach you ♪ ♪ but that's not what you heard ♪ ♪ Now I'm feeling every mile between us ♪ ♪ I wonder if I'll ever learn ♪ ♪ That it doesn't matter how I mean it ♪ ♪ If that's not what you heard ♪ ♪ No, it doesn't matter how I mean it ♪ ♪ If that's not what you heard ♪♪ - You're still singing the truth.

Very powerful.

A lot of parents will be comforted by that.

- Aw!

- Thank you.

A pleasure being with you.

Amy Grant, um, may the music, keep coming.

- Uh, thank you.

[acoustic guitar music] - For more information about the Nashville Songwriters Hall Of Fame, please visit, nashvillesongwriters foundation.com