- [Narrator] Production and distribution of City Club forums and Ideastream Public Media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland Incorporated.

(exciting music) (bell dings) - Good afternoon, and welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

It's Friday, December 17th, and I'm Kristen Baird-Adams, president of the City Club board of directors and chief of staff of PNC's national regional president organization.

I'm pleased to welcome you to the City Club's exit interview with Dave Abbott, president of the George Gund Foundation, who retires at the end of this year.

Established in 1952, the George Gund Foundation funds programs that enhance our understanding of the physical and social environments in which we live, and increase our ability to cope with its ever changing requirements.

To date, the George Gund Foundation's commitments have totaled more than $816 million, including under Abbott's leadership, numerous organizations addressing the most pressing issues here in Cleveland.

Today's forum is the Norman A. Sugarman Memorial Forum on philanthropy in America, as well as the James S. Lipscomb Memorial Forum on philanthropic spirit in community leadership.

Both Norm Sugarman and James Lipscomb were remarkable leaders in philanthropy here and across the nation.

And Lipscomb himself was the first executive director of the George Gund Foundation.

So it's certainly fitting that we'll hear from Dave Abbott, who is leaving the helm of Gund more than 60 years after Lipscomb was hired.

A graduate of Denison University who holds a master's in journalism and a law degree from Harvard University, before joining the Gund Foundation, Dave served as president of University Circle, executive director of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum, and executive director of the Cleveland Bicentennial Commission.

Dave also served as Cuyahoga County administrator, playing a key role in the creation of the gateway project, and early in his career, as a reporter for the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

On a personal note for all of us here at the City Club, Dave Abbott and his wife JanRroller, past City Club board president, our longstanding supporters of this great institution, which proudly serves as the nation's longest standing continuous free speech forums renowned for our tradition of civil civic dialogue, debate, and discussion.

I could go on, but it's clear that Dave has worked in just about every part of this community, making catalytic changes across the city and the region, working of course to make our great city and our country better for all.

So what are the lessons of his story tenure?

And what does he see as the opportunities and the challenges for Cleveland's next generation of leadership, including his successor, Anthony Richardson?

In conversation today is Randy McShepard, vice president of public affairs and chief talent officer for RPM International.

And I must note, one of the many of us who have been inspired by Dave's leadership over the years.

He and Dave have worked together for decades, starting with the Bicentennial Commission in 1994, where Dave hired Randy to work alongside him.

Members, friends, and guests of the City Club, please join me in welcoming Dave Abbott and Randy McShepard.

(audience applauding) - All right, well, good afternoon, City Club, and good afternoon, Dave Abbott.

- Afternoon, Randy.

- You feeling okay?

- I feel great, how about you?

- Fantastic.

We'll jump right into this.

I do wanna go back to the very beginning for you.

I understand you grew up in Fremont, Ohio.

And I wanted to know what exactly brought you to Cleveland.

Was it the Plain Dealer job?

Or did you always have aspirations of moving to Cleveland?

- No, it was the Plain Dealer job.

When I got out of journalism school, I actually hitchhiked around the country for most of the summer looking for a job among other things.

And the place I got a job was here in Cleveland, so that's what brought me to Cleveland.

Fell in love with Cleveland during that brief journalism career, and one thing led to another and here I am.

- Wonderful, speaking of falling in love with Cleveland, in a recent conversation, Dave, you mentioned a name of a gentleman, Jim Flanagan from the Plain Dealer.

And you talked about how he piqued your interest in Cleveland.

Please share a bit more about that.

- Sure, when I first came to the Plain Dealer, my work week started at 6:00 p.m. on Friday.

And I worked from 6:00 p.m. to 3:00 a.m, and I had Wednesdays and Thursdays is my day off.

And here I was new in town.

This was not a great way to get to know a community.

Everyone's leaving for the weekend, I'm just starting.

And my job was called night rewrite, and I took notes over the phone from reporters who were out covering fires and disasters and murders and things and wrote the stories up.

And my editor was this guy named Jim Flanagan, who sat about 10 feet away from me.

And he was quite an intimidating fellow.

He was probably six three, fairly heavy, bald head, rimless glasses, suspenders, straw hat.

I mean, he was right out of a movie, and he yelled a lot.

And at 11:00 p.m, which was when I got to take a break and go get lunch, he was getting off work.

And there used to be a bar at 17th and Superior called the Headliner.

And we'd go over there, and Jim would, and I would sit at the bar, and I would say virtually nothing.

And he would talk and tell stories about Cleveland, about just all the crazy stuff that happens in the city.

And I'm a little emotional about it because I think back, Jim died just a couple of years later, and I never really had a chance to tell him what an impact he had on me.

But that was my education about Cleveland before I was even able to get out on the streets of Cleveland and really be a reporter.

And after about six months of that, I finally was.

But he made a profound effect on me because he gave Cleveland this sort of romantic quality, despite the fact that he was talking about all of these terrible things that reporters tended to cover.

But he made a big influence on me.

He was also a real mentor in terms of writing and learning how to write under deadline pressure.

And as I mentioned, he passed away while I was still at the Plain Dealer, even though I was only there less than four years.

But that was my Cleveland 101.

- Fantastic, well, thank you to Jim for that.

So you left the Plain Dealer, went to law school, came back, and took the job as county administrator.

- Not immediately.

I worked in Boston after law school for Congressman Barney Frank on his reelection campaign.

I was his communications director.

And then we intended to come back to Cleveland, and Jan will say that I dragged her kicking and screaming, but not really, not really.

So we came back and my intent was to practice law.

But in the election of 1982, Tim Hagan was elected as a Cuyahoga County commissioner.

And I knew Tim from when I was a reporter, and one of his brothers was a great friend of mine.

And Tim called me and said, "How about working for me for a year?"

And so I worked as Tim Hagen's administrative assistant for two years in Cuyahoga County government.

And then at the end of that two years, I became the county administrator.

So there was that interim period.

- Fantastic.

So tell the everyday Joe and Jane in the audience, what is it like being the county administrator?

- Huh, well, that was by far the hardest job I've ever had.

I spent about eight and a half years in that role.

And that is kind of like chief of staff or chief operating officer, it's that kind of role.

There were three elected commissioners who appoint the administrator, and you then oversee the bureaucracy that is handling a whole host of programs heavily in the human services.

And that's a really tough 24/7 job where you are, where everybody is your boss.

And you are faced with a multitude of demands that are very tough to meet under the best of circumstances.

But we tried and did the best we could.

And I actually think while I was there, I'd like to think that county government functioned fairly effectively, but I was an actual critic, a severe critic of the form of government that Cuyahoga County used to operate under because it was so diffused.

There was so many other elected office holders that it was virtually impossible to set a budget and then use the budget as a management tool, because all these elected office holders would ignore you.

And it was a real challenge to try to make things work.

So when it came time for the issue before the voters to change the form of government to an elected executive and council, and get rid of most of the other office holders, the elected office holders, I was for it.

Not because of the corruption scandal, which actually precipitated the issue and led most voters to support it.

I was for it because it was just a wildly inefficient form of government when you could not really manage the budget the way you wanted to, the way anybody would want to.

Be as if you told the mayor of Cleveland, yeah, okay, you're mayor, but take half your cabinet.

They're now gonna be elected, and they get their own budgets and they get to do whatever they want.

That's kind of what county government used to be like.

And so I'm glad that changed.

But that, it was a hell of an education for me.

It was one way in which I got into the community and very deeply in many different aspects.

And I hope I did a halfway decent job at it.

- Well, you would never say this, but I remember talking with you over 20 years ago about how complicated the deal was to figure out Gateway.

And how there were very difficult moments.

And some would argue you're an unsung hero, but just say a little bit about your role in the Gateway deal.

- Well, Tom Chema's here, who led that effort in the, Tom and I joked more than once, I think after it was done, that we should write a book about it.

But if we did, we'd both have to leave town.

(audience laughing) And there's some truth to that.

Deals like that are complicated under the best of circumstances, and they have debatable aspects, certainly, but it was one of those things that died a thousand deaths along the way.

Should it be a baseball stadium?

Should it be an arena?

Do we have to have both?

What else is involved?

Dealing with the team owners, dealing with the various political forces.

It was enormously challenging.

One of the interesting things about it was that Mike White, who was the mayor at the time, was an advocate for it.

But he, I would say, prioritized the arena over the ballpark.

And Tim Hagan, who at the time was president of the board of county commissioners, and of course, who I worked with very closely, also supported it, but he sort of tended to lean a little more toward the ballpark.

And there was always some, is there enough money to do both?

Does it make sense?

It was highly complicated.

And there was a relationship forged between those two that was enormously beneficial for this community in various ways.

At the start of that process, they basically hated each other.

They had just run for mayor against each other.

- Oh, that's right.

- And said bad things about each other in the course of the campaign.

And yet that project brought them together because they saw mutual benefit for the community and for themselves.

They thought that we could do something with it.

And that had benefit in dealing with homelessness, with dealing with human services more broadly, in ways that people don't realize.

But because of the county and the city worked together well, and that relationship in the case of those two guys was forged by the Gateway process, as tough as it was, and as many deaths as it died along the way, it would not have happened without either of them.

And it would not have happened without them coming together.

And that was a remarkable thing to be a part of and to see actually.

And I wish that we saw more political marriages like that in our very fragmented political environment that we live in here in Northeast Ohio, because you can do things when that happens.

- Very good.

Thank you for that.

So you and I met when I joined the Cleveland Bicentennial Commission 25, 26 years ago.

I'd like you, first of all, to maybe say to the audience what the Bicentennial Commission was, since some were just youngsters when that even happened.

But besides all of the wonderful coworkers that you had there, I'd like you to talk about your fondest memory of the Bicentennial Commission.

- Well, the Bicentennial was a celebration of Cleveland's birth in 1796.

So it was, 1996 was the celebration.

And I was hired in 1993 to plan, put together, and then execute it.

And I wanna point out Dick Pogue, who is here, who along with Bob Gillespie, were the two co-chairs of the Bicentennial Commission, which Mayor White appointed and said, go do this.

And it was an amazing four-year project.

I think we made a number of good decisions.

There is no better one that I made than hiring you, Randy.

I mean, that was really the- - Gotta pay him now.

- (laughs) No, really, that's paid off in so many ways, not just for the Bicentennial, but it helped then launch you into- - It did.

- Everything you've done since, which has been so valuable to Cleveland.

And I remember, well, I turned the job down at least twice, maybe three times before I decided to do it, because I didn't think it was something I would be interested in.

It frankly didn't seem serious enough for me.

And so only when in talking to Dick and Bob and the mayor about it did I agree, when they said we could make it much more than a party.

And so all the stuff you worked on in neighborhoods and trying to get kids involved and the community involved in different ways.

Yes, we threw one hell of a party, but we also did a lot of other things with the Bicentennial.

And including bringing City Year to Cleveland, which then is where Randy went to work after the Bicentennial.

And that was a tremendous thing, but you asked, I don't know if I have a single favorite memory, because there were just so many.

Many of which were kind of challenging, shall we say, like during the big birthday party in July of 1996, it was down in the Flats for those who may recall, some of you may have been there.

Three days down on the river with the orchestra and many other activities.

Oh, I see Sherry is over here.

Sherry also worked with us.

And there had been a giant pile of coal placed at the mouth of the river for the benefit of a power plant.

And that was done just before the Bicentennial.

And they told us we couldn't shoot off fireworks because it was going to, remember this?

- I do.

- And so we had, it was a nightmare.

We had to figure out a way to deal with it, including having a fire boat, and having extra guards, extra insurance and all of this.

And damn, if on the first night of fireworks, one piece didn't land in this coal pile and start a fire.

(audience laughing) And I thought, oh, this is a nightmare, we're gonna, because they told us, once a fire start, it will burn for six months.

It's not gonna just, you can't just put it out.

But the firefighters got up there and they watered it down, and amazingly, they did put it out, and they decided, okay, you can keep doing fireworks.

But I was like, as you know, there are a million stories like that during the Bicentennial about how, it kept us up at night, didn't it?

- Very good.

- But it was fun.

(audience laughing) - There you go.

So as was highlighted in the video that was shown for the audience here before the program started, our listeners would not know that you are a man that has been affectionately referred to as steely eyed bastard.

(audience laughing) Can you tell us what that's all about?

- I never understood it, and it's heartbreaking.

Well, another colleague of ours at the Bicentennial, Ann Zoller, I don't know if Ann's here, but Ann is clever in many ways.

And she began calling me names just in the normal course of conversation.

That's just sort of how Ann is.

She started calling me names, one of which was steely eye bastard, and which stuck.

And she explained that I had a tendency, which I'd been told since by many others, when talking to people, I tend to listen intently, and I just look them in the eye and listen.

And apparently, it can be intimidating.

I don't mean to be.

(audience laughing) I actually don't mean to be, but I've been told that I am, and so- - It's what made Jan fall in love with you, though.

- Yeah, that's right.

(laughs) - So lot all is lost.

- So steely eyed bastard is something that stuck.

And frankly I've used it to my advantage too.

- Yeah, there you go.

- Once I figured that out, I thought, oh, okay, yeah.

- Very good.

Well, I'm sure looking around the room at some people that care deeply about this community and spend days and nights wrestling with the challenges, they'd love to hear how you would describe the state of the community in Cleveland today.

- Well, it's a mixed bag, as it almost always is that there are some areas in which I think we've made progress, others in which we had not.

And we all know there's certainly a lot of work to be done.

Policy bridge, which you had has come out with a new urban agenda, which deserves attention, and I hope the new mayor does that, even though it certainly can not be an agenda owned only by the mayor, must be owned by everybody.

And we are, in some ways, masters of our own fate and in other ways not.

And that has a lot to do with where we are and where we're going.

That we have made smart investments over time in some areas like some of the medical facilities, for instance, that fuel a lot of our economy today and are likely to keep doing that in a major way.

But in other areas, we are behind, like we got into investments in technology far too late compared to other communities.

And we have not invested in ourselves in the degree, to the degree that we really should have and must going forward, because we are in global competition.

And when we compete with the rest of the world, we compete through all of you, and everybody else who isn't here.

And our workforce, our people, they are our team that we have on the field in global competition.

And there are too many of our teammates who aren't able to play in the game because they don't have the skills or they don't have the simple education, or they are discriminated against and are not given the opportunities, or they are victims of the discrimination that has been sadly a part of our society since its founding, and have not been able to overcome the legacy of that.

And we all know that's true.

Well, we have to be more serious about attacking it and about overcoming it if we are going to succeed in global competition and have the kind of lives that we want.

And I'm not just talking about the Black and Brown members of our community who are victimized by our history, but I'm talking about all of us.

Because if anybody can't participate, we all suffer.

It's to all of our detriment.

And so we have to be more serious about that.

And that's a whole set of issues.

Many of them covered in your new agenda.

And we just have to be aggressive about it.

But that is not all that it takes, because we do not exist in a vacuum.

Our region competes against every other region in the world, but we do so in a global context.

And so climate change is affecting everybody and everything, and it's only going to get worse.

And we have to be consciously thinking about our place in that changing environment, and what we can do or contribute to addressing it, but also how to adapt to it and use it to our advantage.

The racial inequity that continues to exist in our society and in Cleveland certainly is a problem that is not just ours, but because of the way it has infected our politics and our ability to address issues, or even to have civil conversations, I think is a huge problem that affects our ability as a community to deal with our problems, because we have to do it in partnership, if possible, with state policymakers, with national policymakers.

And right now, that's not going too well.

It's a little better than it was not long ago, but not enough.

And then the state of our democracy is so fraught, so perilous.

Our ability to address anything is at risk.

And it's simply wrong to think that race and racism does not have a lot to do with the state of our politics, because that has infected the thinking of far too many people.

And they are distorting our democracy and using the power that they have in every way possible in part, not wholly, but in part to make the advantage that White people have held in this country since the beginning permanent, despite the changing demographics of our country.

(audience applauding) And no matter what political party you're a member of, what side you're on, you can't deny that.

That is just evident when you look at not only our history, but what is happening today.

I thought when, in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder, there was a moment when people recognized that disparity, that inequity, that injustice.

And that people were prepared to deal with it.

But there's been a terrible backlash since then, a White backlash against it.

And it shows up in our politics very starkly.

And we see it in the denial of the outcome of the 2020 election.

And we see it in the efforts to distort politics on a state-by-state basis to make it harder for people to vote.

And that means mostly Black and Brown people and poor people, in order to maintain political advantage and power.

And that might seem like something way beyond our capacity as a community to deal with.

But we are part of that.

We are victimized by it.

We must participate in every effort to change that.

And so when we think about Cleveland, when we think about the issues we face, you must do it in that context of what's happening in Columbus, what's happening in Washington.

And how we can use whatever we're doing here to try to influence what is done there.

And it is a perilous moment for us right now.

For us as a community, for us as a society, for us as a democracy.

And I'm not sure which way it's gonna go.

And so we have to, we really have to apply ourselves to that fight.

- We must, and that's the kind of talk that had people wanting you to run for mayor, see?

But well said, I couldn't agree with you more, Dave.

As a follow-up to that question, you know here in Cleveland, we are experiencing a sea change in terms of new leaders.

There's a new mayor, we'll have a new county executive.

We've heard about retirements coming up, ranging from Augie Napoli at United Way, to Dr. Johnson at Tri-C, to Dr. Boutros said MetroHealth.

It just goes on and on.

I guess the question is, what are your thoughts about the changing of the guard?

And what advice would you have for the new leaders that will be taking over the helm of these various organizations?

- Well, the first thought is that I don't think any of us should be surprised by it.

It's just the way of life.

The Baby Boomer generation is passing the torch, as we must and should.

It's just one of those things.

We've all reached a certain age where it's time to move on and let younger people take over.

It doesn't mean that I or others necessarily are leaving town or leaving the community or leaving public engagement.

I certainly am not.

But I think it's a great thing that there is new blood, new voices, new outlooks coming into these roles, and more diverse perspectives and people too.

So I think it's a very exciting time in that respect, and I'm really looking forward to it.

We obviously have a new mayor who I think is gonna bring a level of energy and excitement.

And frankly, an outward looking view that I think is really important.

And although I don't think it's gonna be a big change at the Gund Foundation, I'm really excited that Tony Richardson who's there with us today, (audience applauding) Tony, Tony, as many of you know, is currently the executive director of the Nord Family Foundation out in Lorain County, and so he's very familiar with Cleveland.

And they do work in Cleveland as well as Lorian County and elsewhere.

I'm very excited Tony is coming in.

And I know he won't skip a beat in terms of what the foundation needs to do.

And that's not to say they're gonna do exactly what I would do.

They will be an evolution and change if that's the way it should be.

But I feel great that it's in his hands, and in the hands of the staff that is there, 'cause they are just a tremendous group of people.

- Fantastic.

- And the board, I can't omit- - Can't forget the board, that's right.

- Yeah.

- there any unfinished business, Dave Abbott, that you will ruminate about in your retirement?

- It's all unfinished.

(audience laughing) I mean, I tell the staff, we do the hard stuff.

And that hard stuff is not done.

The issues of climate change and racial injustice and democracy, it is not done.

- Unfortunately.

I did wanna ask a question about your leadership style that I think would be helpful for the audience.

I- - We already talked about steely eyed bastard.

- Yeah, yeah, I promise we won't go back to that, but, no, I remember you as a hands-off boss who had no problem giving a lot of responsibility to a young group of professionals that worked with you at the Bicentennial Commission.

And since then, you've done things like start the fellowship program at the Gund Foundation, which really was all about identifying and sort of engaging young leaders.

And can you give your philosophy or vision about developing young leaders?

- Well, I've always believed that the best thing you can do in positions like mine is to hire good people and then get out of their way and let them do their work, if they're good people.

To give them a guidance and direction to the extent needed, but hopefully as little of that as necessary.

They're all nodding their heads back here, I think.

Yeah, so they probably think I've done too much guidance, but yeah, good people will do good work, and so that has always been my philosophy.

And I apply that to younger people too.

I am, of all the things I've done at the foundation, the fellowship is probably the thing I'm proudest of, because it's created this pipeline of, and cadre of great young people, some of whom are here today, to learn from the foundation, learn how we work, what we do, but then also about the nonprofit community and the community more broadly.

And they've all gone on to do great things.

Alicia Washington has come back to join us on the staff at the Foundation, but they're all doing great things, mostly in Cleveland.

A couple have gone elsewhere, but not too many.

And most of them are in Cleveland making positive contributions.

And so I think by just showing them how we work and showing them the opportunities, they were all smart enough to realize they could take advantage of it.

And so my philosophy, as I said, has been to look for good people, but then give them fairly limited guidance.

And certainly, you were among that group, Randy, that took it and ran with it.

- Yes, I can say so.

(audience laughing) - [Dave] How old were you when I hired you?

- You were always very supportive, I must say that.

And you really did give me so much responsibility.

(audience laughing) It was a sink or swim moment, let me tell you.

But we're getting close to the end.

I have two final questions.

One, sort of a different question, but I think an important one, especially for those young couples out there.

You've been an incredibly busy guy for the last 40 years, but so is your lovely wife, Jan. And she's been on tons of boards, you've had these big jobs, but you all have also raised three wonderful sons and seem to be wonderfully happy as a couple.

What advice would you have for, do we need to talk later, or?

(audience laughing) No, but honestly, I've always admired- - That's probably how it's worked, because we've been so busy.

- So the real test begins- - That actually probably is a factor, is it, because we've both been so involved in the community.

I think that that does mean that you're not focused on every little thing.

And so that does help.

We also had a great nanny, Kathy Griffin, who worked with us for decades with the kids.

But we hope we've raised our kids as people to be involved in their communities and in the world.

That world part, they took too seriously.

'Cause we have one living in Hong Kong.

One just got back after a decade in China and Korea.

And the third's in Chicago.

And our daughters-in-law are both Asians, the two daughters-in-law we have.

Now, in truth, I guess we raised them to be citizens of the world.

We just didn't expect them to listen to us.

They did.

- Well, I have one last question before we'll start the Q and A with the audience.

I'm sure they're chomping at the bit.

And that question is, if this is a true exit interview, Dave, as you reflect on your many years of dedicated service to Northeast Ohio, how do you wanna be remembered?

- As a citizen of Cleveland.

- I like that.

Ladies and gentlemen, Dave Abbott.

(audience applauding) - Thank you.

- We're about to, we're about to begin the audience Q and A.

We welcome questions from all, City Club members, guests, students, and those of you joining us via our live stream or radio broadcast on 90.3 Ideastream Public Media.

If you'd like to tweet a question, please tweet it to @TheCityClub.

You can also text questions to 330-541-5794.

That's 330-541-5794.

And our staff will do their best to work your questions into our program.

May we have the first question, please?

- Hi, Dave.

Hi, Randy.

- Hi.

- You may not recall, but I do.

When you first became executive director of the Gund Foundation, Dave, you commented to me that among your concerns was that you would never hear the truth again.

I wondered if you might comment, well first, was that true?

It doesn't seem from the video that anyone held back telling you what they thought about you.

But if in how the power dynamic between funder and grantee has evolved, and you might include major big donors, do those who have the money hear the truth?

Thank you.

- Yeah, that is a big issue.

And it's still a big issue.

It's an eternal issue when there is a wealth and people seeking it, and that's just the way it is.

But my argument and my point to you, Amy, was that I worried about it because I worried that we, or I would not make decisions as well without hearing the truth.

And so we've done a couple of things.

I think our style at the foundation has always been of a sort that we hope builds confidence and trust and mutual respect and a willingness to be candid.

We know it's imperfect, but we try.

And doing that just by how it's like to meet with us and where we meet with people and all of that.

And our staff, I think, are good practitioners of that.

But we know that power dynamic still exists.

So one thing that we started doing fairly early in my tenure was, I came across this organization called the Center for Effective Philanthropy based in Boston that does a very extensive survey of our grantees anonymously.

And it's really extensive, and it not only gets information from them, but also it's comparative and compares us to a lot of other foundations, to give us candid feedback so that people know what they're telling us is anonymous, and they can be truthful, and we take it very seriously.

Now, it's still mostly positive, but not entirely.

And we take very seriously, especially the criticism.

And we've done everything from eliminating a program area to rebuilding the reception desk in our office to make it more welcoming.

And a lot of other stuff where we, because we do take seriously what the people we work with think about us and that relationship, because they are doing the work we care about.

It's not us.

We're just writing checks.

Now, we do engage with people.

We spend a lot of time working with people and offering what we hope is valuable participation in that process, but it's really the organizations, the non-profits that are doing the work that we want to see done in the world.

And if they're not telling us what they really feel, whether it's, why the hell did you do that, or, why don't you return my phone call, or whatever it might be, then we're not gonna be as good as we wanna be.

And so those are ways we try to get the truth, Amy.

We still know.

And then we are, I would say this, too.

We maintain a perennial consciousness of that dynamic.

We just don't pretend that it's not there and pretend that people are always telling us what they really think.

They will start with that with me next month, but until then, I'm still conscious of it.

- That's right.

We have a question over here.

- Good afternoon, Dave.

Ray Leach with JumpStart.

And on behalf of all the entrepreneurs in Northeast Ohio, I wanna thank you for your leadership and the support of the Gund Foundation.

But my question really is something that you hadn't commented on quite yet.

And that is, you've been, and the Gund Foundation has been an incredible leader around regionalism.

And the Fund for Economic Future in particular has been a catalytic collaboration that supported economic development, certainly in the city and in the county, but also in the region.

I'd be curious if you could share with the audience what the biggest lessons you've learned as it relates to the Fund for Economic Future, and the success that it's generated, and the challenges perhaps it's faced.

And the last thing is maybe a comment about Two Tomorrows, which I think has been one of the most impactful messages brought to the community, particularly over the last four years.

- Well, I actually hate regionalism.

At least I hate the word.

It sounds like a disease or something.

And we're not very good as a place at regionalism, or thinking regionally, which is all it really means, it does not mean regional government.

It does not mean wiping out all the municipalities.

Not that I wouldn't, but the, but it just means working together on a geographic basis that reflects the way the global economy treats us.

The global economy is made up of a whole bunch of regions.

There's no city of Cleveland economy.

There's no Cuyahoga County economy.

There's not even a state of Ohio economy.

And we are regions competing.

And so if we're gonna compete in a smart and effective way, we need to pull together as a regional team.

And that's imperfect always, 'cause it's so complicated when you've got all these municipalities and the diversity and the complexity and the political divisions and everything that get in the way, but we still have to do it.

And we are doing it.

Whether we're doing it effectively or not is another question, but we are doing it.

Whatever it is we're doing to behave in a regional economy, that's our competition.

That's our team on the playing field.

Maybe we're running smart plays, maybe we're not.

But the point of smart regionalism is simply recognizing that reality and pulling together as effectively as possible.

And that is a continually evolving and re-evaluated process.

The Fund for Economic Future was philanthropy's effort, now, almost 20 years ago to simply step into what we saw as a vacuum of leadership on the issues of our economy.

And you may remember "The Quiet Crisis" that was telling us how bad things were going back then.

And thought we ought to try this to at least see if we can make a difference.

And I believe the fund has made a difference.

What it has done over time is, has evolved and should, and will continue to evolve.

But the work of thinking regionally and thinking as a team that includes everybody and has everybody in mind with the outcomes of what our economy generates has to continue.

The Two Tomorrows, which was, it's now about three years old, I think, is a statement of, sort of restatement of what the fund held most important.

And it elevated the racial equity issues in our region even more so than we had before, because it was apparent that what was happening not just here but nationally was not attending to those issues, to put it mildly.

And that we had to deal more systemically with the economy and not just with the individual or personal expressions of racism.

And that failing to do that was hurting all of us economically.

So justice aside for a minute, set altruism aside for a minute, just think in terms of economic self-interest.

That we were shooting ourselves in the foot, and still are to too much extent.

And so I feel good about what the fund has done, but there's, who knows what the future holds, but that form of collaboration, if you got rid of the fund tomorrow, you'd have to recreate some new form of philanthropic collaboration, in my view, in order for philanthropy to live up to its role to deal with all the sectors to advance what we care about.

That's all it really is.

But I think the fund has done a lot, and added a lot of value by bringing to scale organizations like JumpStart and others, and what they have done.

But it's done much more than that, and there's much more work to be done.

- Dave, this question comes via texts from, I think, a former colleague on the Bicentennial Commission.

Do you consider Baywatch on the Cuyahoga done for the Bicentennial to be your greatest achievement?

And if not, what could possibly top it?

- Okay, now this has to have come from Ann Zoller.

(audience laughing) Yes, Baywatch on the Cuyahoga, for those of you who remember, and I would bet Randy and Sherry are probably the only ones in the room who do, that was a Sea World production that was done on the, back when we had Sea World in Northeast Ohio and done on the Cuyahoga River during the daytime of the great three-day party down in the flat.

So it was a water show.

It was, yes, it was, it's pretty much been downhill for me since then.

(audience laughing) Thank you, Ann.

- Well, it was important to Ann, obviously.

- Yeah.

- This one won't be quite so light.

The attention between the minority community and the police is not only in Cleveland, it's all over the country.

What can you tell us that would give us some optimism that with the new amendment to the police review in Cleveland, that there might be some relief, some modification, some improvement in minority community and police relations, and a better understanding or view on the part of the police towards their role in the minority community?

- Well, I may be out of my depth on this one, but the, it's clear that an element of the relationship is a lack of trust, a big element.

And I am hopeful that the new reform measure that was adopted, and I wanna point out that I live in the city of Cleveland and voted for it, will provide mechanisms by which trust can be enhanced and restored.

And that by giving a citizen-based commission, authority to make actual decisions around discipline, and giving citizens who are aggrieved and victims a sense that justice representing them has been achieved, that that can go a long way toward restoring trust.

It won't happen overnight, and it won't happen perfectly, but once that has begun, then I am hopeful that a kind of snowball effect will occur, and that the trust will become mutual.

And that if the justice that is enacted is viewed as fair and as not arbitrary, and of course must be those things, then I would hope that the trust will be reciprocated.

And that over time, that relationship of trust, which is so fundamental to policing and having people feel that it's worthwhile can be achieved.

It is by no means done, not even begun really.

And the proof will be in the pudding.

But that's, when I went to the ballot box, that's what I was hoping, and that's still what I hope.

- Tom Beres, City Club member, and a former reporter at channel three.

Putting on your couple of hats here, both as a former reporter, and now as a guy who dispenses money to important and worthwhile causes.

The foundation has just made a contribution donation to sustain something called, what, the Marshall Plan, Marshall Project as greater coverage of the justice system.

Given the decline in the quantity and quality of journalism and the Foundation's commitment to advancing democracy, and the key role that journalism plays in that, do you see the role of Foundation increasing in coming up with ways to sustain and encourage alternative and independent journalism?

- Probably.

In addition to what we did to, we launched the Marshall Project in Cleveland, the Marshall project has been around for a while doing justice reform reporting, and they won a couple of Pulitzers for their work.

Some other foundations in the community have put up money in partnership with the American journalism project to launch a kind of more general purpose newsroom in Cleveland.

We haven't yet decided whether to be a part of that, but it's still a possibility.

Both of those are examples of how foundations can support journalism.

In addition to things like Ideastream, which we have long supported, as have others.

But my fear in all of that is whether it's sustainable, because it's expensive and it's new for philanthropy.

This is not something that historically foundations have funded because we didn't need to.

The advertising process and revenue sustained newspapers and journalism generally.

And it worked pretty well for a very long time, but the internet killed it.

And so now, we are faced with diminished capacity in local journalism.

And we're really talking here about locally-focused journalism that does the kind of work that we as a community need to see done, that holds politicians and people in power to account for their behavior.

And what I don't know yet is whether there is the appetite and the will among foundations in Northeast Ohio to put up not just money to launch something, but to keep it going long-term.

Because I hate it when foundations, and they do this often, exercise attention deficit disorder, and they'll put money into something 'cause it's the shiny new thing, and then a few years later decide, well, we're not gonna do that anymore and move on to something else.

That's just not responsible behavior on something like this.

The community needs journalism, is philanthropy-prepared to make the long-term investment.

That's still an open question.

- Hi, I'm Karen Snyder.

I am the Ohio regional director for 2nd Act.

We are a nonprofit that uses theater to address substance use disorder.

And I have a general question about applying for grants for foundations.

What is your advice when nonprofits continue to get denied from foundations?

What's your advice for nonprofits to keep moving forward and to applying again?

- Well, first of all, you need to do your homework any nonprofit does before applying to make sure that the foundation you're thinking about going to funds the kind of work you do.

And then how does it compare to other things in that area that they also fund?

Is it duplicative?

Is it different in some way or what might it be?

And then talk to the foundation before submitting an application, try to have a conversation to find out if it is something that is likely to be funded or not.

If so, why?

What might you modify?

How might you change things?

There are a number of things to do.

But at the end of all that, there's still no guarantee that you'll get funded, because unfortunately, every foundation is faced with more requests than there are dollars available.

And so priorities must be set and tough judgments made in order just for us to do our job.

And we wish that were not so, but it is.

So it's a matter of developing, doing your homework, trying to develop a proposal that meets the needs and the goals of any particular foundation.

You don't wanna contort yourself to fit their needs, and you don't wanna do it one way for one foundation and another way for a different foundation.

But that's really about the best advice that I can offer.

- Hi, Dave.

Hi, Randy.

My name is Emma Kopp.

I work at the Cleveland Foundation, but I am also a fellow Denisonian.

And there's a cohort of Denisonians here today, as well as other liberal arts grads.

I see an Oberlin grad among others.

So I was just wondering if you could speak to your liberal arts background, and if that prepared you for the variety of positions you held during your professional career, thank you.

- Absolutely.

I'm a big advocate of a liberal arts education, because what it really teaches you is a process of inquiry and investigation and analysis and communication around issues.

And so that's invaluable, and it's been invaluable in every position that I've held.

I went and got a journalism degree and a law degree after my liberal arts education, and they both also prove useful, but in many respects, both are simply more specific precise application of a liberal arts approach and how you apply yourself to a problem or an issue, to understand it, and then to try to communicate it or solve it or whatever.

And so yeah, I'm a big fan of a liberal arts education, and loved my time at Denison.

- You mentioned a citizen of Cleveland.

That's the second time I've heard you say that during your retirement tour around town.

Randell asked the question about folks retiring at the United Way and MetroHealth and Tri-C, and that new leadership.

Could you talk more about where you see folks that wanna be citizens of Cleveland, who aren't yet at that part of their career?

So those that are leaving the fellowship and want to be engaged in the civic realm of Cleveland, but don't have either the position in town, but have the ambition to be part of that voice that changes Cleveland in Northeast Ohio.

- There are a multitude of ways for people to do that, and I'm a big advocate of it.

One thing I tell almost everybody is to work on a political campaign.

It doesn't have to be a candidate, could be an issue, but whatever you happen to believe in, if there's a candidate who reflects that, and every candidate needs help, whether it's going door to door or doing mailings, yeah, guess they still do mailings and, no, they do.

- They do.

- And raising money.

There are any number of things you can do.

It's an important thing, not just for the individual, but it's important for our democracy and for our society to be involved in that way.

And you also learn a tremendous amount in a political campaign.

And from my experience at least, if you're good and you show up and you do what you say you're gonna do, you can go from a volunteer to practically running the thing in no time, because there is just an insatiable need for people who are not full of baloney, and who do what they say they're gonna do.

And that's just one way, but volunteering with civic organizations, every organization needs help.

Volunteer, get involved, put yourself out there.

And it's the same way there too, that if you are good and you do what you say you're gonna do, and you're not somebody who just says something and then doesn't follow through, you're gonna advance quickly and you'll find yourself being engaged with the community, and it will open up doors that you never even imagined existed.

And so there's no shortage of opportunities for you, John, or others to pursue that.

(audience laughing) And we need it.

It's what our society and our community need to be made of.

- Amen.

- Today, at the City Club, we have been listening to Dave Abbott's exit interview with Randy McShepard.

Today's forum is the Norman A. Sugarman Memorial Forum on philanthropy in America, as well as the James S. Lipscomb Memorial Forum on the philanthropic spirit in community leadership.

We welcome guests at tables hosted by the Center for Community Solutions, the Cleveland Foundation, the Cleveland Transformation Alliance, Cleveland VOTES, College Now of Greater Cleveland, Fund for Our Economic Future.

And that brings us to the end of today's forum.

Thank you, Dave Abbott and Randy McShepard, and thank you members and friends of the City Club.

This forum is now adjourned.

(audience applauding) - [Narrator] For information on upcoming speakers or for podcasts of the City Club, go to cityclub.org.

(exciting music) Production and distribution of City Club forums and Ideastream Public Media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland Incorporated.