From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made on June 21st when the United States launched Operation Midnight Hammer.

The operation involved B-2 bombers dropping bombs on Iranian nuclear facilities.

One of the facilities was known to be operating deep under a mountain, and the Trump administration authorized the dropping of numerous 30,000 pound bombs known as bunker busters.

The next day, President Trump declared that the operation had, in his words, totally obliterated the Iranian nuclear program.

He claimed that by going to war against Iran, he hoped the strikes would lead to a rapid peace.

He wanted Iran to voluntarily disarm and promised not to restart its nuclear program.

But in the days since, the intelligence community has cast doubt on whether the strikes actually eliminated the Iranian nuclear program, there are conflicting reports about whether Iran moved its material before the strikes, or even whether the bunker busters went deep enough to damage more than just entrance ways.

And President Trump's own rhetoric has included threats of assassinating the leaders of Iran.

Israeli leaders have celebrated the strikes and welcome to the United States to their war effort.

Meanwhile, the Iranian people are caught in the middle.

Millions of Iranians are opposed to their own ruling regime, but they also feel targeted by the United States.

That goes for people living in Iran and for Iranians studying or working abroad, especially in the United States.

We couldn't possibly offer a conversation that represents all of the Iranian people.

There are widely divergent views in a country of 92 million people and millions more millions of more expats around the world.

But we can get some understanding of how these events are affecting Iranians and Iranian Americans.

And my guest this hour is an Iranian American who moved to this country in the late 1970s, became a citizen here about a decade later.

She escaped Iran before the fall of the Shah.

She has worked as a professor locally for more than 30 years.

She has strong views on what it means to be an American and what it means to be Iranian.

Shaheen much?

Welcome back to the program.

It's nice to see you.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you, Ivan, and thank you, the listeners.

I appreciate the opportunity.

I think we're going to cover a lot of ground here.

And just a little bit about your background, I mentioned you moved to the United States in 1978.

You had actually studied, about a decade earlier as an exchange student in a local school district.

Yes.

But what was going on in the late 1970s set the scene a little bit for me when you when you came here more permanently.

Okay.

When I came here, the revolution had not started at all in Iran.

And, I was just, I had earned a scholarship from the Water Power Authority's of Iran, where I worked as a public relations person to go to RIT and get an MBA, and after two years, returned to my country with a better position.

When I came here in three months, the revolution happened.

And by, December of 79, I was in the right MBA program, but no funds came from Iran because Iran went through the revolution.

And, it was happening so fast and, my funds were cut off and all that, but that's a different story.

But, I continued on with resources from family, that were provided to me long distance.

I continued and finished my MBA, and, it's a long story how I finally got my citizenship and got to stay and marry my American husband and raise my daughter here.

She was three when we left Iran.

And, I'm so glad that I did make that move.

However, these days, my heart is heavy about my homeland.

Also, my first homeland, Iran.

And what's happening to it.

I want to read something that you said five years ago when there was, once again, tensions bubbling up between the United States and Iran.

President Trump was concluding the first of his four years, as president.

And here's what you told Kctv five years ago.

You said, quote, I earned my American citizenship.

So for somebody to tell me I'm un-American because I have a love and familiarity with the country I was born and raised in.

That's not right.

And I hear it all the time.

End quote.

Do you still hear that?

Yes, I do.

I do that.

I, I don't blame people for saying that to me.

But it also has, a little bit of connection with my, feelings of why don't they know more about where I stand as an Iranian here?

What you said that I said to ROTC is that I love my country, my homeland country.

And I have earned truly earned my citizenship.

I think immigrants, majority of them, earn their citizenship when they become a citizen.

We work hard for it.

We go through a lot of hardship to get a visa, to stay, to find a job, to get some kind of permanent visa, to turn it into citizenship for years and years.

We are walking on eggshells not to offend any laws, to be a good citizen, to do our best to be productive and self-sufficient so that finally we get to stay as a citizen.

But I, still, I hear from people who do not really, see that and see us foreigners and see us at as the Iranian they see on television.

And maybe as an extension of that question is, what are some of the common assumptions or stereotypes that people who are ignorant about Iran in this country might have about Iran?

What do you hear often?

Well, it's a long history.

It changes from the reaction to my, comments or introducing myself.

I get an impression of how they feel about Iran.

It used to be in the early years, of course, when I came here, when there crisis happened with Iran, hostage taking, the rival Islamic revolution.

People would ask me about, because of my looks.

They would say, where are you from?

And when I would say Iran, for about the first five years I was here.

It was usually a silence and a very deep look and turning away their heads.

And, it was they didn't want to continue conversation.

They were in a shock that, actually, and a real live Iranian person is in front of them because they didn't we didn't have that many Iranians in Rochester.

They didn't know any Iranian.

They didn't think I should belong here.

And they wouldn't usually, want to have anything to do with me anymore.

And then when they were comments later on, it turned into, Aren't you lucky to be here?

Yes.

Of course.

I appreciate my American experience and, my American homeland.

But all that I heard from them was about the negative, nasty things that were on television.

About.

Oh, aren't you happy that you are not?

You don't have to wear a long scarf or, Boy, you got out and, neck over time.

Your country is horrible and stuff like that.

And there was never a real curiosity beyond those, the minutes.

If I went along 100%, I would be accepted.

The minute I said anything positive about my country, including even that I'm homesick.

They would take offense.

They would take offense.

They would say why?

They thought so.

I gathered they think, I have escaped from a horrible country.

That altogether is horrible.

Not that it has a war, but its people are bad, the country is bad.

Everything about it is bad and negative, and they have insatiable appetite for hearing negatives about Iran and that has been the burden of most Iranian immigrants in this country.

Well, and so now there are, of course, many Iranians studying here, many people working abroad, many Iranian Americans.

And I want to read, some comments and a little bit of background, directed me this morning from my colleague Julie Williams.

This comes from Ryan Costello of the National Iranian American Council.

He said, quote, what it seems like Ice has done is basically give out an order to round up as many Iranians as you can, whether or not they're linked to any threat.

And then arrest them and deport them, which is very concerning.

And quote, the Trump administration, according to the Associated Press, has deported hundreds of people from Iran to countries other than Iran in an attempt to circumvent diplomatic hurdles with governments.

You know, we've kind of seen this with South Americans.

And now in the last several weeks since the bombing of Iran, this is apparently happening in similar fashion.

Homeland security announced the arrest of at least 11 Iranians on immigration violations during the weekend that the Trump administration authorized those strikes, but they didn't provide any evidence that there were extremist or terrorist ties.

They just announced they arrested 11 Iranians.

And so I want to ask about what it is like being an Iranian American, but also having ties to the local Iranian community, students, other perhaps faculty or colleagues of yours and, you know, the fact is, there's three empty chairs here.

We could be talking to a full panel, but I understand why people might not feel like they can speak publicly, whether they are on a visa or whether they are a citizen, whether they are or not.

What are you hearing exactly?

As I speak here, to be honest with you, I do have a little bit of worry about the risk I'm taking to speak up.

Because you're a citizen.

You've been a citizen for.

I am almost 40 years.

But as you said, as you said, Trump's administration is looking for Iranians or even people of Iranian origin who, especially if they are quiet, maybe nobody will bother me but to come out, on WXXI and speak up about these things.

Some of my colleagues that I called and asked to come to this program said, we don't think you should even go because Homeland Security, is after any reason for arresting any Iranian to get applaud from the government.

So why would you risk say something ING.

And especially they know my views and I'm not for President Trump and, the atrocities that he is, causing all over the world.

So they said, if you want to speak, you know, realize that there is a risk.

And they said, no, no, we want to come to the program and even the ones who are citizens and then the students, well, that's very dangerous for them.

I believe it's not a false fear.

Look at what's happened with Harvard University.

Look at other colleges.

Look at how they are coming down on Iranians naming Iranians those targets and wanting to arrest as many Iranians as possible.

And most of our PhD students of U.

Of our and RIT in very sensitive fields, who had who have worked for years to get admitted to U.

Of our PhD programs and come here and are away from their parents and they don't know for 18 days now what's happening to their families, the aftermath of bombing and all that, an Israeli attack.

They are afraid they have a single entry visa and they tell me, and I actually tell them, don't I keep them, keep a low profile, don't participate in public speaking.

There is no freedom of speech right now in the United States.

And you could be handcuffed and sent to a country you don't know anything about just because you're an Iranian.

Yes, I would say so.

Look at look at what Trump is doing.

There's enough on the news to convince you that just because you're Iranian and not only Iranian, maybe if you're Iranian and keep a low profile and shut up, you'll be okay.

But if you are Iran, young and outspoken, without any, even clear political siding with any group, I don't think that, it would be taken, lightly.

So let me ask you about a number of the issues related to, again, Shaheen mentioned just here, speaking for herself, not trying to represent every Iranian view.

And like any community anywhere in the world, there's going to be disagreement within groups.

Of course, this is a perspective, though, that we're not hearing a lot of, and partially because of what Shaheen just said, the fear of speaking up.

So I want to ask you about the claims not only from this administration, about the nuclear program in Iran, but also the perception that, maybe the difference between leadership and a society and whether Iran poses an existential threat to Israel, Israel's concern that it does the rhetoric from Iranian leadership over the years about Israel, about the United States.

So from the perspective of Israeli leadership and a lot of Israeli society, it seems from the perspective of current American leadership, Iran is an existential threat to Israel and should never be allowed to get a nuclear weapon because of their professed hatred and desire to eliminate, the Jewish state.

And I think partially why a lot of Americans who don't know much about Iran have this idea that Iran is kind of this backwards terroristic place with, you know, mostly a desert.

And it is because of the American media portrayal movies that you talked about, all the things that you described earlier in this conversation.

And what we miss Tehran is, I mean, what is it, 19 million people?

It's an incredible city that I would love to visit someday.

Very modern.

Yes.

And there's very mixed views in Iranian society about their own leadership.

And there's a, you know, the youth movement, probably.

I'm making an assumption probably would love to be even more modernized.

So it's not a monolith of opinion.

And so I want you to take us through how do you see the leadership versus the society?

How do you see that rhetoric towards Israel in the United States, the Iranian nuclear program?

I mean, how do you how do you kind of parcel all of this out in your mind as an Iranian-American?

Well, let me tell you a little bit about the history of, Iran.

Israeli relations, Jewish minority have been in Iran for centuries.

And lived and prospered in Iran right up until the Islamic Revolution of 1979.

There we go back where it's Jews, in our, history and culture for thousands of years, Iran has always had a good view of Israelis.

Israelis never, have good feelings towards the Iranian are great King Cyrus the Great, they call it.

They call him a prophet.

Based on our history of 500 years B.C., he was the one who rescued, Jews from Babylonian and allowed them to go back to the Jerusalem and rebuilt it after Babylonians had set fire to it and destroyed it and all that.

And in recent history, Israel, right up until the revolution, was a friend of Iran.

We had great relationships.

Iran, unfortunately, Iranians are, as you said, in a way, victims of both three governments right now, nobody in Iran that I've seen and traveled to often in this last, 30 years believes that we should have those nasty rhetorics and boastful, things, said about Israel.

Iranian government has a history of, Iranian Islamic Republic, has a history of every few years announcing that if they touch Iran, we will, obliterate Tel Aviv and even Haifa.

And we can, destroy the whole world.

Iran, Israel off the map was, the face of the Earth.

Well, those are the what you called correctly.

That's the government.

What do Iranian people say?

Iran fans are all the time screaming about the stop it.

Who wants to say those things to Israel?

Iranians are complaining more of a lot more shouting to the government in their protest.

And they being, you know, harassed about, why is the Iranian government their basic complain is what have you done in the last 30 years?

You have to spend more on Hamas and enemies of Israel than you have fed your own people.

That's the stand of the Iranian people.

The Iranian government may say a lot of things, just as President Trump says, a lot of things that don't represent half of America, including me.

You can't come after me for something that Trump says.

First of all, we don't know if this threat that they are given has any reality to it.

I mean, we will, destroy Israel with what Israel has a vast military equipped to weaponized to the teeth by American textile ers, year after year, for 40 years.

More than that, they have a vast military.

They have nuclear bombs.

Iran is nothing compared to Israel.

So Sam Mohler, our ayatollah, wants to say, we hope to and that's not to be taken that seriously from the people of Iran.

They have no appetite for fighting Israel.

But Israel, you, of course, from their point of view, they are helping my enemy.

They are helping Hamas.

They are helping Hezbollah.

So you don't understand really fierce.

I can understand Israelis for years, but I don't think that they should go as far as, for instance, if they are against the Iranian government, why don't they attack Iranian government?

Nobody has touched that Iranian government in this last 13 days.

Well, I mean, I mean, you have destroyed an atomic and and nuclear operation, a system that Iran, first of all, needs.

There is no need for, for energy purposes, not for even in my opinion.

And many Iranians like me and many people around the world agree with us.

Okay, if you read more about what other countries are saying, Iran as a country, its people really deserve to have an atomic bomb, Especially exactly because of what we saw happen recently.

Why all of our countries around us have nuclear bombs?

Why shouldn't Iran have for its own defense?

However, I understand Israeli's point that Iran is an exception.

If Iran has nuclear weapons, then they would use it loosely against us, against this, against, whoever they considered their enemy.

So they are the ones in all the world who shouldn't have an atomic bomb.

But it's not like it was imminent threat of atomic bomb towards Israel.

I want to make sure I understand some of what you what you just said.

So tell me if I'm hearing you correctly, the reason that you and some significant number of Iranians and and Iranian expats around the world do want to see Iran develop a nuclear weapon.

Is not because you would ever want to use it preemptively.

Exactly, but exactly for the reason of what happened on June 21st, which is that Iranians feel if we don't have a weapon to deter.

Right, we're always going to be under attack.

I think the Trump administration may say, why don't you change your government?

Why don't you truly modernize the people of Iran?

If you want to modernize, why are you allowing yourselves to be led by people who are saying barbaric things and threatening war?

People or government?

Government?

Yeah.

LED by an ayatollah led by leader.

You think it's that easy to change?

No, I don't, I don't I'm saying this is what I hear.

The Trump administration's right when Donald Trump says that he knows where the ayatollah is, and he could take them out in five minutes.

Yeah.

That is a very flippant remark that is winking at assassination.

Yes.

I mean, that's I think it people's heads were spending pretty fast when you talk that loosely about it.

But then his administration says, look, you know, he was just making a point.

But the Iranian people should get rid of that guy.

They should get rid of their leaders.

If they're that unhappy, get rid of the guy.

Half of Americans were very unhappy with President Trump in the first term.

Could they change it?

And this is a democratic country.

We're not talking about dictators who have weapons, massive amounts of weapons and power of control.

So how could the how could the Iranians change?

Well, I'm asking, you know, is there any is there any set of events that could happen in your mind?

First, let me ask you a separate question.

Would you like to see the Iranian leadership change?

I'm taking a risk to say that half the more than half the Iranian people would like a regime change.

Okay, that's my observation that there are two camps.

One says they should stay just like any other country.

There is a variety of opinions about the regime.

Yeah, a lot of Iranians are fed up.

And they say, actually, they say even if this regime, we don't want them necessarily to go, but we have the same demand we had when Shah was ousted at that revolution.

We said, we don't want necessarily Shah to leave the country.

We want him to change his policies.

And now they are saying, we want this regime, for God's sakes, anybody from, superpowers who can make this regime change their policies and spend more on their own people than on Hamas and all that.

And, have Iranians more free at the time of show, we wanted more freedom and nothing else.

Absolutely.

And so my observation is that when the United States especially, but when often Western powers seek to create the conditions for regime change or create regime change in South America in any part of the world.

Even if the intention is ostensibly noble, the results have been often catastrophic.

Yes.

Because there's nobility is under question.

Oh what noble.

Oh okay.

Well I mean I mean okay.

So again I say ostensibly noble ostensibly, but let me but let me clarify that.

But to say, even if you really believe that you're acting as a friend to the Iranian people.

Yes.

And and removing their leadership would be a gift to the Iranian people.

The world is extremely messy when there's a power vacuum.

And we have done a very poor job over decades at figuring out who the next leaders will be and whether they will be any more freedom loving and benevolent.

And so what I want to ask you is what is a reasonable mechanism to allow the people of Iran, the, the actual freedom that they deserve that you want them to have?

It's probably not the Trump administration assassinating Ayatollah Khomeini.

So, I mean, what's the what are the mechanisms look like?

The mechanisms looked like what we had in 2,018th.

Sit down with this government and force them to change, say, stop your nuclear weapons.

We will, stop the sanctions for a country who has devastated the Iranian economy for 40 years to come around and say, now we have a novel idea of changing your, and ayatollahs for you?

First of all, Iranians wouldn't believe.

What noble idea did you think about us when we were getting.

Our whole economy has been devastated by the United States.

The people we don't trust the United States as an intermediary unless they ask for human rights in Iran.

They ask actively to come in and have and as you said, they have the power.

They could they could prepare ways that Iran could have a referendum by the people with their own elected people, not somebody the U.S. wants to put in there to be their puppet, try to, have a referendum free referendum.

Yeah, it's going to be messy for a while.

Yeah, but let the control be in the hands of people.

People themselves are ready to do a number of things.

Yeah, they will be a vacuum power and this and that and depends on what is US's aim at such an intervention.

What do you want to do?

Whose side is the United States on?

When is it stepped in?

Is it, money for Trump?

Is it, I don't know what what are they interested and why?

After sanction after sanction for 40 years, devastating people, having millions of people hungry.

We never had that in Iran.

Iran was a thriving country.

It was a monk in the category of middle income developing countries.

Now it's an underdeveloped country.

After all of that development.

And, so there is no trust.

I must say, once in a while, United States send some signals and people get hopeful, such as these atomic bomb.

They said, oh, maybe they're going to enter a negotiation with the government to change its policies.

No, they threw a bomb.

Next day, Mr. Trump said, no, no, no, we don't want to do regime change.

Why?

You're scared that if there is a scared of saying that and you don't even intend to do anything with the Iranian government peacefully or hatefully or whatever.

And so where do people stand in this?

I think we have to ask ourselves, I don't think you have any additional Intel, but I'll ask you, what do you make of it?

When President Trump says, well, we obliterated the whole nuclear program, that's the end of it.

We drop got bunker busters on Fordo.

We got it all.

And then two days later, International Intelligence Assessment says, you know, we're not really sure that, yeah, one day later, we're not really sure that you did get all of it.

What do I mean by what do you hear when you hear him say that?

Yeah.

When the first time I heard them say that the morning I get out is we obliterated Iran's UN.

Tell me, can I say I.

My first impression was.

I hope he's exaggerating.

He always exaggerates.

It's probably not that bad because what comes out of Trump's mouth, it's not to be counted on.

At least wait for 24 hours to see if he really means it or not.

Secondly, I was very sad.

That's millions of dollars of Iranian people gone into that.

And what is the plan?

I was as an American, I was saying for us, what is our plan as Americans?

What did we want from throwing that bomb over that Natanz and then wash our hands and come out and say, no regime change, no other thing.

And if you don't make peace with us, we'll kill you.

What kind of peace treaty is it going to be under the gun?

What kind of peace talk is it?

Make peace with us or we'll kill you.

And that was my impression.

I was very sad.

I didn't like it.

And I thought if they.

They think the Iranian regime is so dangerous with these weapons, they have to go after the Iranian regime if they want to or sit down with them like we did in 2018 and say, hey, this is going to be under a strict control by International Atomic energy organizations and not by you.

And we don't agree with you having this if you threaten them, if you ever want to get very close to making a bomb to attack Israel, you will be facing us in support of Israel.

Say that, do that.

But these random both sides, Iran ayatollahs and Trump that I think they are of the same class saying these things.

We going to obliterate you.

We going to do this.

The threat will kill you if you don't make peace with us.

These are just for consumption by masses of people who don't know what's going on.

Well, one other point on that.

And then Greg in San Diego, I'll take your call.

We'll get some listener feedback.

Yeah.

When you say, as an Iranian American, that you don't see all that much difference between the Iranian leadership now.

And President Trump, it's it calls to mind for me something that President Trump said this weekend to Maria Bartiromo on on Fox News.

She was asking Donald Trump about how China is behaving and she pressed the president, according to reporting from Tom Nichols this morning, she said the Chinese have hacked into our telecom system.

They're stealing our intellectual property.

They're sending fentanyl.

They might be responsible for Covid.

I mean, you know, all this bad stuff.

How can you negotiate with a bad actor like this?

And President Trump said, you don't think we do those things?

There you go.

And Maria Bartiromo was kind of stunned.

And for a few seconds she was silent.

And he said the same thing again.

You don't think we do those things?

And the president said, the world is full of nasty people.

There you go.

And he made his own equivalence.

Yes.

Between the United States and China.

Yes.

And it was in kind of a brag.

He was kind of saying, well, we do all kinds of covert dark stuff too, you know.

Yeah.

As opposed to, no, we hold ourselves to a different standard.

Right.

And we're going to behave differently.

No.

His whole I didn't even try to say that we would behave differently.

Right.

He does.

He is actually stands for doing, opposite of what America stands for the country.

You a part of democracy, but part of what the president is saying is we've been naive for too long that the world is a dangerous place, that the world is a nasty place.

And if we don't get nasty, we will get run over.

And it's time to have a leader who understands that.

When was the last time United States was under attack by a foreign military force?

In their boots?

In your land?

In our land here.

You mean on the mainland United States?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, what are these fears coming from, for God's sakes?

You have vast intelligence agency, military, nuclear bombs, money, wealth, power.

What is this fear of little countries around the world is there's.

I think nobody buys those, things that we are afraid of.

This.

We are afraid of that.

You're not that afraid of anything, Mr. Strong.

You are looking for something else, and everybody knows it around the world.

And I don't need to talk about it anymore.

I totally agree with you.

When you say he is saying I am.

It is nothing wrong with being all these things that China is.

He's just saying we have to.

We have to actually we have to go.

You have to get dirty.

Listen, he takes pride in the, the single atomic bomb over Hiroshima.

He uses it.

I listen to him.

He says the bomb we threw on Natanz was kind of like Hiroshima.

And he takes pride in that.

I know most Americans who say, at the least they would say it was sad that we had to do that.

But we have to.

Now, this gentleman, he takes pride in it and he says, hey, we did a Hiroshima thing here.

He thinks it's elevates his action to the worth of a nuclear bomb, even though he didn't throw it.

So this is not a, guy who has any noble ideas for anything to do.

Right?

But he's saying he's not going to hide.

He's not going to pretend, is he's some noble actor.

He's saying I'm the realistic leader that we need in a dangerous world.

Do Americans believe, really?

I think plenty do.

This.

He was a bad half of.

Yes.

I think it's very sad as an American, to be honest with you, I this is my homeland now.

I have spent most of my life in this country and as I said, I've earned my citizenship and he doesn't represent me.

And he doesn't represent many like me.

You know who it was?

A wise American.

President Truman.

Iranians don't forgive.

Forget the name of Truman.

Because Truman was in 1953 when U.S. was trying to overthrow and politically and popular leader of Iran, who was for democracy, doctor Mosaddegh and US and Great Britain were fighting for that scheme.

Operation Ajax.

Truman was saying, don't do this.

We should inside with the Britons think what they want to have control, that his words are their we.

And he wrote a long letter to the Iranian government would recognize that you have a right to control your own oil and your own destiny.

That's the president who puts in mind his mind and thinks and has ideals and looks what's best for us, what's best for Iran and are you doesn't just go with, whichever way money or power come.

We have to take our only break.

We're going to come back.

We've got phone calls and some emails for our guests.

Shaheen Munch Kapoor, who is an Iranian American who first came to the United States as a student in the 1960s, came back in the late 70s, became an American citizen in the late 80s and has been teaching for decades.

We're talking about an an Iranian American point of view during this time, and we're right back on connections.

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Maybe it's working well for you.

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We're going to talk about a new survey designed to help the Patient Clinician alliance better solve these problems.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson and this is Greg in San Diego on the phone.

Hey Greg, go ahead.

Hi.

Hey.

I've been there.

It's been a very long history of the United States government trying to change governments.

You know, other countries.

I'll start with Libya, where?

Yeah, because he was overthrown and killed.

Now there is a bloody civil war that shows no signs of ending.

Next is Iraq.

We went into Iraq.

We had a we made sure that Saddam Hussein was killed, arrested.

Is it any more secure, any more free for the people of Iraq?

We went into Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban.

We were there 20 years.

Who is running Afghanistan now?

The Taliban going back a little bit there we went.

We stayed in South Vietnam for 15 years to install a democratic government in South Vietnam.

How did that and 60,000 Americans dead and hundreds of thousands of, Vietnamese then now we just go back to Iran?

Yes.

I agree with your guest that this country was complicit in overthrow throwing Mosaddegh in 53 because we wanted the oil of Iran.

He was democratic.

This country helped to install the Shah of Iran, Shah Reza Pahlavi, and he was overthrown in 79.

And we got our just returns with the Islamic Revolution of 79.

Now Trump wants to put the Shah's son back in.

We don't have a very good we have a tragic history of trying to change the governments of other countries.

Tragic.

For we are the losers.

Thank you mean, Greg, thank you for the phone call.

Shaheen.

What do you think?

I think he's right.

We don't have a very good experience of changing regimes, and it will take so long to talk about why it's another topic.

Why do these regime changes fail these policies the way they are operated?

But he's totally right.

Look at it.

Look at the record.

Are the Iraqis any better off now after Saddam Hussein?

And, like even you said it before, it creates a vacuum for power.

And who knows what will happen next.

And all of that, I would say for a United States government, whoever it is, as long as you are on the side of people of those countries with no other ambition, you may have a chance to succeed in changing the regime.

But wait for the signals of invitation from the nations, from the people of those countries, not abruptly deciding, I'm going to jump in there and change the regime, which we don't trust.

It's for rescuing us from a dictator, because all signs show that there are other ambitions.

I think about Greg's phone call makes me think about the conversation in the last several years about Russia.

You know, plenty of Americans would love to see Vladimir Putin out of power, but there's no telling what would come next.

And there's no telling what the next leader of Russia would do with 5000.

I don't know how many operational, but plenty of operational nuclear warheads.

Right.

And I, at the very least, Greg's call, it's an indication that the history should make us pause and and ask ourselves more than just do we not like who is in power?

Exactly, but understanding a lot of dynamics, it's very different, right?

Yeah.

Very dangerous situation.

Michael writes to the program.

He's referencing, one of the PBS shows with Rick Steves and Rick Steves traveling the world.

Now, I didn't see this episode, Michael, but I'm going to trust Michael's characterization.

He says, I saw an amazing episode of Rick Steves Europe where he went to Iran.

He was nervous at first, but after that he was amazed at how many Iranians wanted to meet Americans.

His taxi driver insisted that he come to his home for a feast.

Iranians told him that we don't like your government, but we do like Americans.

Exactly.

That happens a lot.

You can ask my own husband how he's been to Iran and experience similar things.

So, so how do we square that up here?

Because the challenge facing where the world is turning next year is understanding that your leadership, the people in power who are very committed to staying in power.

And I'm not just talking about here or anywhere else, I mean just talking about human beings in power.

Human beings are motivated by power to acquire it and then to keep it, and then often to expand.

Meanwhile, the people may suffer, but the people may view one another across oceans as potential friends.

Yes, but the leadership sees grievance and enemies.

Yes.

What can we do about this?

I think people to people do what we're doing right now, talk with each other.

Let's not demonize the people of another country.

When people tell me I'm they ask me for the they say they are curious to know about Iran.

They invite me to talk to their, book clubs.

And I say, what do you want me to do about, what views do you want me to share?

Say?

Well, just share with us how you deck your country.

What's so backward and how you didn't have any rights, and how your husband divorced you.

And from what we hear and how you are enjoying it now in this country, I tell them, okay, then, you know more than I do because I don't know any of these things you said.

So if you know so much about Iran and me, why don't you do your own group and talk about it?

They already have a formed opinion about me.

I say I'm divorced.

They say, oh, you must have had a nasty Iranian, Iranian Muslim husband.

No, I had the kind of problem that any American woman who was getting divorced may have.

Why is it come to this?

Like I said, there's insatiable.

Appetite for hearing negative things rather than reaching out and saying, you're a human being.

I'm a human being.

Let's talk to each other.

Let's see what we have in common.

We love your country.

There is something you can find in Iran you love.

It's full of lovable things.

That country, if it ever had.

And it was in the way of having that.

If it ever had open doors to the United States, it would be a favorite tourist spot.

Lush nature, beautiful.

Different varied spots, fun of all kinds.

People.

Generous, hospitable, American loving, democracy loving.

It has a lot to offer.

So what do we do?

People do.

People.

We talk.

We talk.

And you learn more about each other.

We resist the the urge to close ourselves often.

Right.

Don't don't don't, reduce your, don't limit your knowledge to fox Newt.

Let me, let me get another phone call.

This is Zahara in Rochester.

Hi, Zahara.

Go ahead.

Hello.

Thank you for the great discussion.

So as an Iranian students in the States, I just want to add to what Mrs. Moss reports that, I believe that the decision about whether Iran's government should change or not belongs to the people who are actually living there.

And they're the ones who have gone through the war sanctions and the daily struggles, things that we outside the country haven't directly experience.

I've only been in the States for two years, and my parents are still living in Tehran.

But, even as a, as a student here, as somebody who still have my whole family back home, I refuse to decide whether there should be a regime change or not.

So my question is, why does the American government, so far removed from Iran, think it has the right to make decisions for our people?

Shouldn't the US be focusing on its own problems first?

It really sometimes feels like the system here is more interested in control and extraction than in real care for others, or even for its own citizens.

Thank you.

Thank you for the discussion.

Yeah.

Thank you for the phone call to her.

So, I mean, I'll just briefly say before I let Shaheen answer that question, that I again, reading and listening to this administration, part of what they would say is, your point is a fair one.

We should be worried about our own problems and Iran is a problem for us.

Is Iran with a nuclear weapon would be a problem for us?

It would be a problem for Israel.

It'd be a problem for the world.

That is what this administration would say.

And that is why they are acting the way they are.

And they look at Iran's leaderships, their government support for Hezbollah, other organizations.

And they say that is not a government that is behaving in a way that promotes peace.

And it is in our interests to intervene in some way.

Shaheen, what do you think?

I totally agree with her that this is a decision of the people of Iran and people of Iran have not made that final decision.

And when they make and see it worse, to do it their own way, they will change their regime if they want to.

That is said.

But in terms of America, America's interest and protecting their own interests, as I said before, I don't know that.

So is is is America afraid of all the countries who are making nuclear weapons and messing up with their governments and their people to prevent them from possible animosity to the United States?

What are you going to do that you're so afraid if they had an atomic bomb, they would throw it over you?

I mean, at threats have a basis.

They come as the fear has to be consequence of something.

What does Iran done to United States?

You have success.

United States has government.

Our government has successfully destroyed Iranians.

Economics, united as it says, has had a plan.

That was genius.

Okay.

We'll talk to that government and tell them you stop your, hidden or, you know, an atomic energy building plans and we will stop sanctioning you.

That was working.

What about that?

Isn't that a way of preventing the so-called danger to the United States?

If you don't threaten the people, they don't get up and spend their expensive weapons against you.

So if you plan to steal the oil or something like that.

I don't want to say you steal the oil, but it has happened.

If you want to do that, then you better be.

Yeah, yeah, you should be afraid that they have any weapon.

I just want to say, as we hear the music.

I'm glad that you reached out recently to say that this would be a valuable conversation to have.

And I understand why a lot of Iranians and a lot of Iranian Americans are hesitant to currently speak.

You're welcome any time.

And I'm grateful that you lent your voice here.

So thank you for being here.

Thank you, Evan, thank you so much.

Let's continue these discussions.

It's important that Shaheen must report an Iranian-American who's built a really impressive career in the United States had a lot of friends here and a lot of family here.

But speaking from the perspective of an American with Iranian roots, more connections coming up in a moment.

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