-All this pain that you experienced... -Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

-...is it what made you a writer?

-Oh, yeah.

I think that if I didn't believe that my work matters, that my suffering mattered, I certainly wouldn't sell the message that I sell.

Right?

Like, I am writing books, and I'm asking you for 20 hours of your life.

And it's really not the money.

I mean, this is like -- My publisher's gonna get mad at me, but I maybe make $1.10 or something every time I sell a paperback.

So I could do an event for 5,000 people and sell 50 copies and it looks like this, like, long author's line.

What did I make?

Like $56?

Right?

So -- And it's fine.

That's not why writers write books.

It's because we believe in selling our message.

And by the word "sell," I don't even mean for money.

It's like, no, we're trying to change things.

I think authors are nuts.

[ Laughs ] But at the bottom of it, even the most depressed author you know, I think he, she, or they are deeply optimistic that somebody cares about their message.