>>ANNOUNCER: REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NATIONAL EDUCATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF NEW MEXICO, AN ORGANIZATION OF PROFESSIONALS WHO BELIEVE THAT INVESTING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION IS AN INVESTMENT IN OUR STATE'S ECONOMIC FUTURE, FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE.

I AM DELIGHTED TO INTRODUCE OUR GUEST TODAY, ANNA MERLAN, WHO IS THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK CALLED REPUBLIC OF LIES: AMERICAN CONSPIRACY THEORISTS AND THEIR SURPRISING RISE TO POWER .

HOW DID YOU EVER GET INTO THIS AMAZING FIELD AND YOU BECOME ONE OF THE MAIN SPOKESPEOPLE OF PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON WITH CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

GIVE US A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND, WHERE YOU ARE NOW AND HOW YOU GOT INVOLVED IN CONSPIRACY THEORIES TO BEGIN WITH.

>>ANNA: WELL MY MOST IMPORTANT BACKGROUND IS THAT I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN SANTA FE, BUT I HAVE BEEN WORKING AS A JOURNALIST FOR I THINK LIKE 15 YEARS AT THIS POINT.

A FEW YEARS AGO I GOT SORT OF INTERESTED IN THE ANTI-VACCINE WORLD AND STARTED WRITING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT AND THE ANTI-VACCINE WORLD IS RIPE WITH CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

BUT I DIDN'T START COVERING CONSPIRACY THEORIES IN THE WAY THAT I DO NOW UNTIL I WENT ON A CRUISE FOR CONSPIRACY THEORISTS IN 2016, WHICH WAS AS YOU REMEMBER RIGHT WHEN DONALD TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN WAS ALSO REALLY RAMPING UP.

AND ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ON THE CRUISE WERE FROM VERY DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, SOME OF THEM WERE ANTI-VACCINE ACTIVISTS, SOME OF THEM WERE INVOLVED IN THE UFO WORLD OR INVOLVED IN A FINANCIAL CONSPIRACY THEORY CALLED SOVEREIGN CITIZENRY, BUT WHAT ALL OF THEM HAD IN COMMON WAS THAT THEY WERE REALLY EXCITED ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.

SO I WROTE ABOUT THIS IN MY BOOK THAT I WAS FASCINATED BY THE SORT OF NEW ENERGY THAT HE WAS BREATHING INTO ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT VERY FRINGE, FRANKLY CULTURAL COMMUNITIES AND YOU KNOW I WONDERED WHAT THEY WOULD DO WHEN HE LOST AND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THAT ENERGY AND, OF COURSE, THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED AT ALL.

AND I ALWAYS SAY THAT THE REASON WHY I CONTINUE COVERING CONSPIRACY THEORIES IS BECAUSE THEY ARE A WAY TO UNDERSTAND AMERICA AND THEY ARE A WAY TO UNDERSTAND SORT OF WHERE WE FIND OURSELVES NOW.

AND YOU KNOW THAT HAS GOTTEN EVEN MORE URGENT IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS BECAUSE THEY HAVE BECOME MORE AND MORE CENTRAL AND EVEN PEOPLE LIKE POLITICAL SCIENTISTS OR JOURNALISTS WHO MIGHT HAVE DOWNPLAYED THE EFFECTS OF THINGS LIKE QANON A FEW YEARS AGO, EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THAT IS NOW AND EVERYONE KNOWS THE KINDS OF EFFECTS IT CAN HAVE, NOT JUST ON OUR DISCOURSE BUT ON THINGS LIKE BRINGING ABOUT ACTS OF VIOLENCE AND SO I CONTINUE COVERING THIS WORLD BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOING AWAY JUST BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP IS NO LONGER IN OFFICE ANYMORE.

IT IS AFFECTING HOW WE ARE GETTING THROUGH THIS PANDEMIC, IT IS AFFECTING HOW WE RELATE TO ONE ANOTHER AND SO IT IS JUST REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME TO CONTINUE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE WAYS THAT ITS SORT OF IMPACTING HOW WE TALK TO EACH OTHER AND HOW WE VIEW THE WORLD.

>>LORENE: I NOTICE FROM THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK, AMERICAN CONSPIRACY THEORISTS AND THEIR RISE TO POWER , YOU RECENTLY GAVE A STUNNING TALK AT THE SCHOOL FOR ADVANCED RESEARCH IN SANTA FE AND YOU HAD SHIFTED THE TITLE TO HOW CONSPIRACY THEORIES TOOK OVER AMERICAN PUBLIC LIFE BECAUSE, INDEED, THEY HAVE.

SO IF YOU WOULD BE SO KIND AS TO GET US UP TO SPEED, WHAT'S A CONSPIRACY THEORY, WHAT THE HISTORY OF IT, PEOPLE THINK IT'S BRAND NEW AND IT IS OLD, OLD.

WHO DOES IT, WHO FALLS FOR IT AND WHY?

>>ANNA: SO A CONSPIRACY THEORY IS THIS IDEA THAT A POWERFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE ARE WORKING IN SECRET AGAINST THE COMMON GOOD TO AFFECT SOME KIND OF NEGATIVE CHANGES IN SOCIETY TO HIDE SOME KIND OF CONSEQUENTIAL SECRETS TO SEIZE POWER FOR THEMSELVES.

AND A CONSPIRACY IS, OF COURSE, WHEN A POWERFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE WORKING IN SECRET ARE ACTUALLY DOING THAT.

AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS SO IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE REASON WHY CONSPIRACY THEORIES HAVE SO MUCH PRIMACY, NOT JUST IN THE US BUT IN OTHER COUNTRIES, IS THAT SO MANY OTHER COUNTRIES AND THE US HAVE EXAMPLES OF GENUINE CONSPIRACIES WHERE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WERE IN DEED TRYING TO EFFECT SOME KIND OF NEGATIVE CHANGE IN SOCIETY.

AND SO IN THE US CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE INCREDIBLY COMMON, MOST OF THE RESEARCH THAT WE HAVE SUGGESTS THAT AT LEAST ONE IN THREE PEOPLE SOMETIMES UP TO 50 PERCENT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE IN AT LEAST ONE CONSPIRACY THEORY.

AND REALLY WHAT IT SPEAKS TO IS A SUSPICION OF POWER, A BELIEF THAT THOSE IN POWER ARE NOT WORKING IN OUR BEST INTERESTS AND SORT OF A SKEPTICISM THAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR SOCIETY.

YOU SEE THAT A LOT AND THIS IS THE SORT OF COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD THING ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORISTS IS THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUSPICIOUS OF POWER, BUT THERE IS ANOTHER ELEMENT TO IT TOO WHICH IS THAT PEOPLE IN POWER ALSO USE CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

SO THE THING THAT I ALWAYS SAY IS THAT CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE FOR EVERYONE, WE KNOW THAT PEOPLE IN POWER PROMOTE CONSPIRACY THEORIES JUST TO SORT OF ORGANIZE THEIR BASE AGAINST A COMMON ENEMY.

WE SAW DONALD TRUMP DO THAT QUITE A BIT WITH HIS POLITICAL OPPONENTS OR AGAINST PEOPLE LIKE JOURNALISTS.

WE SEE IT REALLY FREQUENTLY BY YOU KNOW WOULD-BE AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

SO CONSPIRACY THEORIES IN A LOT OF WAYS ARE JUST SORT OF AN EXTENSION OF OUR NATURAL WAYS OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD, OUR SORT OF NATURAL SUSPICION OR DISTRUST, BUT AS WE HAVE SEEN IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS, THERE ARE TIMES WHEN THEY SORT OF BUBBLES OVER AND ESPECIALLY IN TIMES OF SOCIAL UPHEAVAL, SOCIAL CHANGE, UNCERTAINTY AND IT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY YOU ARE SEEING SO MANY OF THEM RIGHT NOW IN A TIME OF POLITICAL TRANSITION AND OF COURSE THIS YOU KNOW DEVASTATING PANDEMIC THAT HAS US TALKING TO EACH OTHER FROM DIFFERENT ROOMS.

IF PEOPLE EVER WATCH THIS IN 20 YEARS AND WONDER WHY WE ARE DOING THIS, BECAUSE IT IS NOT SAFE FOR US TO BE IN THE SAME ROOM RIGHT NOW.

>>LORENE: WELL, I HAVE ALWAYS FELT, I HAVE ALWAYS HAD A LITTLE SOFT SPOT IN MY HEART FOR CONSPIRACY THEORIES BECAUSE TO ME IT HAS ALWAYS REFLECTED THE REAL CREATIVITY OF THE AMERICAN IMAGINATION, BUT IT IS VERY DANGEROUS NOW.

BUT WE WENT THROUGH FLAT EARTH, UFOS, ALIENS, 9/11, THE CIA, JFK, RUSSIA, BIRTHERISM, PIZZAGATE, VAXING, I MEAN IT JUST GOES ON AND ON.

BUT NOW WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT NOW AND WHY IS IT ACTUALLY DANGEROUS, IT USED TO BE FUN, THE X FILES, THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE, BUT IT IS DANGEROUS NOW, ISN'T IT?

>>ANNA: YES.

BUT I WOULD SAY THAT THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES IN OUR HISTORY BEFORE THAT THE CONSPIRACY THEORIZING HAS BEEN DANGEROUS, IT WAXES AND WANES.

AS WE SAID DURING TIMES OF SOCIAL UPHEAVAL.

SO THE X-FILES FOR INSTANCE WAS REALLY POPULAR IN THE EARLY 90S AT A TIME WHEN DISTRUST IN GOVERNMENT WAS AT ONE OF ITS LOWEST POINTS IN THE LAST 100 YEARS.

AND THAT WAS BECAUSE OF SOMETHING CALLED THE CHURCH COMMITTEE THAT HAPPENED IN THE 1970S.

THE CHURCH COMMITTEE WAS A CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATION THAT SHOWED AMONG OTHER THINGS THAT THE FBI HAD BEEN ENGAGED IN THE SYSTEMATIC HARASSMENT OF CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS THROUGHOUT THE 1960S.

IT WAS ALSO ONE OF THE WAYS THAT WE LEARNED ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THE CIA HAD BEEN UP TO DURING THE SAME TIME PERIOD LIKE MK-ULTRA WHICH WAS A PROJECT TO DEVELOP A TRUTH SERUM, A VERY BIZARRE AND QUITE ABUSIVE PROJECT.

AND SO BASICALLY WHAT HAPPENED HERE IS THAT ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE SO CALLED FUN CONSPIRACY THEORIES LIKE THE X FILES CAME TO PRIMACY AND PUBLIC LIFE WAS BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH GENUINE DISTRUST.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE SAW THROUGHOUT THE 90S IS THAT THEY SORT OF STARTED TO DIE DOWN A LITTLE BIT, THEY HAD LEFT THE SPOTLIGHT AGAIN AND NOW THEY CAME BACK FOR A LOT OF REASONS.

CHIEF AMONG THEM BEING OF COURSE, THAT WE HAD A PRESIDENT WHO USED THEM TO HIS ADVANTAGE.

YOU KNOW THERE IS SO MANY EXAMPLES OF THIS BUT A REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT ONE THAT WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF RIGHT NOW IS FEARMONGERING AND CONSPIRACY THEORIZING OVER IMMIGRATION.

THAT WAS A BIG FEATURE OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY AND IT IS A BIG FEATURE ON THE SORT OF RIGHT WING GENERALLY, THIS IDEA THAT IMMIGRATION REPRESENTS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT AND THAT DEMOCRATS OR PEOPLE ON THE LEFT ARE PLOTTING TO INCREASE IMMIGRATION FROM OTHER COUNTRIES IN ORDER TO SOMEHOW DO AWAY WITH THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS KNOWN AS THE GREAT REPLACEMENT THEORY AND IT ORIGINATED ON THE FAR-RIGHT BY A FRENCH FAR-RIGHT AUTHOR AND NOW WE ARE SEEING IT BEING DISCUSSED IN INCREDIBLY EXPLICIT AND HATEFUL TERMS ON FOX NEWS.

SO THE REASON WHY CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE MORE DANGEROUS THAN THEY USED TO BE IS BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE CENTRAL TO OUR PUBLIC DISCUSSION AND THEY'RE BEING PROMOTED BY INCREDIBLY POWERFUL PEOPLE WITH INCREDIBLY BIG MICROPHONES.

>>LORENE: AND SOCIAL MEDIA IS A FACTOR TOO, THE PERVASIVENESS OF SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE LACK OF REGULATIONS.

>>ANNA: YES, YES AND SO WE SAW THAT AFTER THE 2016 ELECTIONS SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES WERE VERY EAGER TO TELL US THAT THEY HAD BEEN REALLY WORKING ON TAMPING DOWN ON MISINFORMATION ON THEIR PLATFORMS, BUT THEY HAD ADMITTED THAT THEY DIDN'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO REALLY DO THAT.

I THINK IN GENERAL EXPECTING SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES TO POLICE THEMSELVES IS KIND OF A FOOL'S ERRAND FOR REASONS WE CAN GET INTO.

SO FACEBOOK FOR INSTANCE HAS SPENT THE LAST FOUR YEARS TELLING US THAT THEY UNDERSTAND THERE IS ELECTORAL MISINFORMATION ON THEIR PLATFORM IN 2016 AND THAT THEY HAD YOU KNOW PUT IN ALL THESE SAFEGUARDS TO PREVENT IT.

WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED WAS THAT IN THE LEAD UP TO THIS ELECTION, SOMETHING LIKE 45 SO CALL "STOP THE STEAL" FACEBOOK GROUPS WERE CREATED TO EXPLICITLY SPREAD THE IDEA THAT THE ELECTION WAS BEING STOLEN FROM DONALD TRUMP AND THESE "STOP THE STEAL" FACEBOOK GROUPS WERE INCREDIBLY INFLUENTIAL AMONG ORDINARY AMERICANS TO MAKE THEM THINK THAT YOU KNOW SOMETHING ROTTEN WAS HAPPENING HERE.

AND AS WE KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THOSE "STOP THE STEAL" FACEBOOK GROUPS ENDED UP GOING TO THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6, TO PARTICIPATE IN WHAT ULTIMATELY WAS AN ATTEMPTED INSURRECTION.

SO, YEAH, THERE IS A TON OF MISINFORMATION ON SOCIAL MEDIA, HOWEVER, IT WOULDN'T WORK IF PEOPLE WEREN'T FALLING FOR IT.

SO IT IS KIND OF AN UNCOMFORTABLE TWO-SIDED DYNAMIC.

YES, WE NEED TO ADDRESS THE ROLE THAT SOCIAL MEDIA PLAYS BUT WE ALSO NEED TO ADDRESS WHY SOCIALLY WE ARE SO SUSCEPTIBLE TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>>LORENE: SO TODAY, I WOULD LOVE TO LOOK AT TWO OF THE MAIN THREADS OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES, THE ELECTORAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND TELL US HOW FAR BACK THAT GOES.

TELL US THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION AND THEN THE OTHER MAIN THREAD I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOU TALK ABOUT ARE THE MEDICAL, PARTICULARLY RELATED TO THE CORONA VIRUS CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

BUT LET'S TAKE ELECTORAL THEORIES FIRST.

>>ANNA: RIGHT.

SO, FIRST AS YOU ARE POINTING OUT WE NEED TO DRAW SOME DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION.

SO MISINFORMATION IS ANY FALSE BELIEF NO MATTER WHERE IT COMES FROM, BUT DISINFORMATION IS SOMETHING THAT IS DIRECTED.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS ACTIVELY FALSE AND IS BEING PROMOTED BY PEOPLE FOR THE PURPOSES OF FOOLING THE PUBLIC.

SO SOMETHING LIKE PROPAGANDA IS DISINFORMATION, SOMETHING LIKE A HOAX IS DISINFORMATION.

SO IN THIS LAST ROUND OF ELECTORAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES WE SAW A LOT OF MISINFORMATION AND A LOT OF DISINFORMATION.

BUT AS YOU POINT OUT, ELECTORAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE INCREDIBLY OLD, THEY LITERALLY GO BACK TO THE FOUNDING OF THE UNITED STATES.

I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS A LITTLE BIT AND YOU CAN FIND LIKE EXTRAORDINARY ARTIFACTS ABOUT THIS FOR INSTANCE ONLINE IN THE SMITHSONIAN'S WEBSITE.

THERE WAS SO MUCH CONCERN ABOUT VOTER FRAUD BY THE 1850S THAT SOMEBODY FILED A PATENT FOR A GLASS BALLOT BOX SO THAT THEY COULD SEE THE BALLOTS IN THE BOX.

SO THIS IS AGAIN SOMETHING THAT HAS OCCUPIED AMERICANS FOR PRETTY MUCH AS LONG AS WE HAVE HAD OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT, IS THE IDEA THAT ELECTION ARE BEING RIGGED OR STOLEN.

AND IT IS AN INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE WAY TO GET PEOPLE ANGRY, TO GET THEM IN THE STREETS AND TO GET THEM IN THE STREETS FOR YOUR CANDIDATE, WHICH IS WHY POLITICAL CANDIDATES PROMOTE ELECTORAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES OVER AND OVER.

>>LORENE: BUT THERE ARE VERY NEGATIVE SIDE EFFECTS TO THESE ELECTORAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

PEOPLE THEN THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO VOTE, IT INCREASE POLARIZATION, PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF STRANGERS, XENOPHOBIA AND THERE IS AN INCREASE IN DOMESTIC TERRORISM.

BUT HOW DO WE FIGHT IT, SO SAY THE LAST ELECTION THERE WAS A THREAD THAT, OH BY THE WAY WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH ANNA MERLAN ABOUT HER BOOK REPUBLIC OF LIES AND CONSPIRACY THEORIE.

SO THERE WERE TRYING TO SPREAD THE IDEA THAT THE ELECTION HAD BEEN STOLEN, THAT BIDEN WAS NOT A LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT AND TRUMP EVEN NOW THIS WEEK, APRIL, TRUMP IS STILL CLAIMING THAT HE WON.

>>ANNA: YES.

>>LORENE: SO HOW DO WE FIGHT THAT AND ALSO, EVEN AT THE BEGINNING OF OUR 60-DAY SESSION THERE WAS A LAWMAKER WHO INTRODUCED A BILL INTO THE NEW MEXICO LEGISLATURE SAYING THAT BIDEN WAS NOT THE LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT AND SO OF COURSE THAT GOT SQUASHED BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE WAS SAYING, "WAIT A MINUTE."

SO HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THEM, SEVENTY-FOUR MILLION PEOPLE HOLD THIS BELIEF VERY DEARLY, HOW DO WE HELP?

>>ANNA: WELL I THINK AN IMPORTANT THING TO RECOGNIZE IS THAT ELECTION FRAUD CONSPIRACY THEORIES RIGHT NOW ARE VERY WIDELY HELD BY REPUBLICANS AND THEY ARE WIDELY HELD BY REPUBLICANS BECAUSE REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS HAVE PROMOTED THEM.

IT IS SORT OF A WEIRD CIRCULAR THING WHERE IT IS UNCLEAR TO ME IF REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS ARE PROMOTING ELECTORAL FRAUD THEORIES BECAUSE THEY THINK IT WILL BE POPULAR WITH THEIR BASE OR IF THEIR BASE IS PICKING UP ON IT BECAUSE IT IS WHAT LAWMAKERS ARE PROMOTING.

BUT IN EITHER CASE, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SOMEBODY LIKE THIS NEW MEXICO LAWMAKER WHO INTRODUCED THIS BILL, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THIS LEGISLATOR ACTUALLY THINKS IS GOING TO PASS, IT IS SOMETHING TO SIGNAL THEIR POLITICAL ALLIANCES, IT SOMETHING TO PUT INTO CAMPAIGN ADS.

SO IT IS IN A WAY PART OF OUR SORT OF POLITICS AS PERFORMANCE AND SPECTACLE AND THERE IS NOBODY CAN REALLY DEMONSTRATE THAT BETTER THAN MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, WHO IS OF COURSE A CONGRESSWOMAN WHO ENGAGES VERY OPENLY IN CONSPIRACY THEORIZING.

HERE IS THE THING, SHE ENGAGES OPENLY IN CONSPIRACY THEORIZING ABOUT MASS SHOOTINGS, ABOUT CORONAVIRUS, ABOUT THE ELECTION AND IT HAS WORKED FOR HER.

IT GOT HER ELECTED AND IT KEEPS HER NAME IN THE HEADLINES.

SO YOU KNOW ONE OF THE THINGS TO UNDERSTAND HERE AND TO PERHAPS TAKE SORT OF THE POWER AND PRIMACY AWAY FROM THESE THEORIES IS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE DONE TO PROMOTE AN INDIVIDUAL AGENDA AND THAT THEY ARE NOT BEING DONE BECAUSE THESE FOLKS WANT TO SAVE THE COUNTRY.

AND SO I THINK ALSO LOOKING REALLY VIGOROUSLY AT THE ROOTS OF WHERE THESE CONSPIRACY THEORIES COME FROM IS HELPFUL AS IS UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORY.

UNDERSTANDING HOW FAR BACK THESE THEORIES GO, BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF THE FOLKS WHO ARE REALLY ENGAGED IN THE IDEA THAT THIS ELECTION WAS STOLEN WOULD BE VERY SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT BASELESS ACCUSATIONS OF VOTER FRAUD ARE LIKE A PROUD AMERICAN TRADITION.

SO IN A LOT OF WAYS, UNDERSTANDING OUR HISTORY IS THE BEST WAY TO MOVE FORWARD.

>>LORENE: I WOULD LIKE TO MOVE TO THE MEDICAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES NOW.

THEY HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME, TOO.

THERE HAS BEEN THE THREADS OF THE GOVERNMENT COVERING UP CURES FOR CANCER, CURES FOR AIDS, CURES FOR COVID.

THE LINK BETWEEN VACCINES AND AUTISM, CELL PHONES AND CANCER, THE GOVERNOR IS HIDING THE NEGATIVE HEALTH EFFECTS OF CELL PHONES TO MAKE MONEY.

SO TALK TO ME ABOUT HOW THE MAIN CONSPIRACY THEORIES NOW AND HOW IT HAS BECOME A BIG INDUSTRY.

>>ANNA: YES, SO MEDICAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE INCREDIBLY COMMON BECAUSE AGAIN THEY SORT OF TIE INTO THAT DISTRUST OF AUTHORITY AND ALSO DISTRUST OF EXPERTS.

YOU KNOW A LOT OF THEM ARE FUNDAMENTALLY ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT THE GOVERNMENT OR THE FDA OR YOU KNOW, OUR OWN LIKE DOCTORS AND MEDICAL EXPERTS AREN'T LOOKING AFTER OUR HEALTH.

RIGHT AND SO THAT IS OBVIOUSLY AFFECTING US IN INCREDIBLY DEVASTATING WAY RIGHT NOW, WE ARE SEEING A HUGE SORT OF SURGE IN COVID SKEPTICISM NOT JUST VACCINE SKEPTICISM BUT SKEPTICISM AMONG A BROAD SWATH OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND THE IDEA THAT COVID IS REAL OR THAT IT REALLY HURTS PEOPLE OR THAT WE NEED TO DO THINGS LIKE WEAR MASKS AND SOCIAL DISTANCE TO STOP THE SPREAD OF THIS PANDEMIC.

WE ALSO KNOW THAT I THINK THE SURVEY SAID, THE MOST RECENT SURVEY SUGGESTED THAT ABOUT 25 PERCENT OF AMERICANS ARE SAYING THAT THEY WILL NEVER GET A COVID VACCINE BECAUSE THEY DON'T TRUST IT OR THEY DON'T THINK IT IS NECESSARY.

IN ORDER FOR US TO GET OUT OF THIS PANDEMIC, WE NEED COMMUNITY IMMUNITY OF ABOUT 80 TO 90 PERCENT, WHICH IS SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS HERD IMMUNITY.

WE NEED A CONSENSUS ON THIS NOT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF NATIONAL UNITY, IT IS THE ONLY WAY THAT COVID GOES AWAY.

AND SO IT IS TO ME SO HEARTBREAKING THAT THIS IS A FORM OF MISINFORMATION THAT IS MAKING THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN IT LESS SAFE, IT HAS LITERALLY KILLED IT'S BELIEVERS IN SOME CASES.

AND SO AGAIN, KNOWING HOW COMMON MEDICAL MISINFORMATION IS BUT ALSO UNDERSTANDING THE PEOPLE WHO FEED IT TO YOU ARE OFTEN DOING IT TO MAKE MONEY.

THERE IS A HUGE INDUSTRY OF BOGUS AND ALTERNATIVE CURES PROMOTED BY SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO CONSPIRACY THEORIZE ABOUT THINGS LIKE COVID OR VACCINES.

A LOT OF THEM ARE SELLING SOMETHING, YOU KNOW I HAVE GONE TO AN ANTI-VACCINE CONFERENCE CALLED AUTISM ONE, THEY WOULD NOT SAY THAT THEY ARE AN ANTI-VACCINE CONFERENCE BUT THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

AND THEY SELL TICKETS TO FRIGHTENED PARENTS WHO HAVE AUTISTIC KIDS, THEY BRING THOSE PARENTS INTO A ROOM AND THEY SCARE THEM TO DEATH, TELLING THEM YOU KNOW, THAT VACCINES WERE THE CAUSE OF THEIR CHILD'S AUTISM AND THEN THEY LITERALLY FUNNEL THEM OUT INTO A CONCERT HALL FULL OF VENDORS.

THEY GO RIGHT FROM FEAR TO A SALES PITCH AND THAT IS VERY COMMON, IT IS NOT ALWAYS THAT DIRECT BUT IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE PEOPLE PROMOTING THESE IDEAS ARE OFTEN DOING IT TO MAKE MONEY.

>>LORENE: ONE THING THAT I LEARNED FROM YOU, ONE OF YOUR EARLIER TALKS IS THAT THEY PROMOTE THE CONSPIRACY THEORISTS, THE WHOLE INDUSTRY THEY PROMOTE, THEY SUPPORT THEMSELVES LUXURIOUSLY BY PROMOTING THINGS LIKE WATER PURIFICATION SYSTEMS, AGAIN DON'T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT, DON'T TRUST SCIENCE AND ALSO SUPPLEMENTS, NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS.

>>ANNA: YES, THERE ARE TWO PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE THEMSELVES VERY RICH DOING THIS.

ONE IS ALEX JONES, WHO MOST PEOPLE KNOW OF AS THE FOUNDER AND MOST RECOGNIZABLE FACE OF INFOWARS.

THE OTHER IS A GUY NAMED JOSEPH MERCOLA.

JOSEPH MERCOLA IS A MAJOR SORT OF FIGURE IN THE CONSPIRATORIAL NATURAL HEALTH WORLD AND HE HAS MADE MILLIONS IN SELLING SUPPLEMENTS, SOME OF THEM TOTALLY INOFFENSIVE AND SOME OF THEM INCREDIBLY DODGY AND QUESTIONABLE IN THEIR EFFECTS AND HE HAS USED THE MONEY HE HAS MADE IN THE SUPPLEMENT INDUSTRY AND POURED IT BACK INTO THE ANT-VACCINE LOBBY, SO IT'S VERY DIRECT THE WAY THAT THIS HAS WORKED AND THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF REPORTING ABOUT THIS SPECIFICALLY THE WASHINGTON POST, BUT YOU CAN ALSO SEE A LOT OF THESE OTHER FOLKS TRYING TO DO THE SAME, TRYING TO FOLLOW THE SORT OF THE SAME THREAD.

SO A LOT OF TIMES WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE PROMOTING COVID DENIAL, VACCINE SKEPTICISM, THEY WILL IMMEDIATELY TURN AROUND AND TRY TO SELL YOU SOMETHING AND IT IS USUALLY A SUPPLEMENT.

THE REASON FOR THAT IS A COUPLE OF THINGS.

IF YOU ARE CLAIMING YOU KNOW THAT MAINSTREAM HEALTH INSTITUTIONS CANNOT BE TRUSTED, YOU HAVE TO PROPOSE AN ALTERNATIVE AND A SUPPLEMENT IS SORT OF AN EASY ONE BECAUSE AMERICANS ARE VERY FAMILIAR WITH SUPPLEMENTS.

ALSO BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT SUPER REGULATED SO IT IS PRETTY EASY TO PRIVATE LABEL AND SELL YOUR OWN SUPPLEMENTS WHICH IS WHAT ALEX JONES HAS BEEN DOING FOR YEARS.

SO, YES THERE IS A BIG BUSINESS, IT IS A MAJOR INDUSTRY.

>>LORENE: SO WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME AND I DO WANT TO KNOW MORE.

YOU HAVE MENTIONED SOME DEBUNKING TOOLS AND WAYS TO FIGHT THIS.

FIRST OF ALL, HOW CAN WE PERSUADE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE WHAT WE CONSIDER TO BE FALSE INFO, HOW DO WE HAVE THEM LOOK AT ANOTHER REALITY OF PERHAPS A MORE GENERAL REALITY AND FAKE NEWS, THIS IS THE CRUX OF IT ALL.

THERE ARE SILOS OF INFORMATION AND HOW DO WE GET COMMON FACTS AGAIN, HOW DO WE HAVE A SHARED REALITY, CAN WE EVER GO BACK TO THAT?

>>ANNA: I AM LITTLE BIT OF A PESSIMIST ABOUT THAT BUT I THINK FUTURE GENERATIONS WILL GO BACK TO IT.

SO THERE IS A REALLY EXCITING STUDY THAT WAS PRODUCED IN 2019 AND THE RESEARCHERS BASICALLY FOUND THAT THEY CREATED A GAME AND IN THE GAME PEOPLE HAD TO ACT AS FAKE NEWS PEDDLERS AND THEY HAD TO LEARN HOW TO PEDDLE A STORY USING THE MOST COMMON TECHNIQUES THAT FAKE NEWS PEDDLERS USE.

YOU KNOW SPREADING CONSPIRACY THEORIES, EVOKING STRONG EMOTIONS, POLARIZATION OF THEIR OPPONENTS AND IT TURNS OUT THAT WHEN PEOPLE HAVE TO PUT THEMSELVES IN THAT POSITION, THEY WERE THEN BETTER AT IDENTIFYING FALSE HEADLINES.

SO THERE ARE EDUCATIONAL TOOLS, THERE ARE ALSO SIMILAR SORT OF EFFORTS UNDERWAY AMONG LIKE MIDDLE SCHOOL AND HIGH SCHOOL CURRICULUMS TO TEACH THOSE KIDS EVEN EARLIER TO IDENTIFY WHAT FAKE NEWS AND BAD INFORMATION LOOKS LIKE AND SO TO ME THAT IS GREAT.

IT HAS REALLY GOOD AFFECTS BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW EASY IT IS TO BRING BACK PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY KIND OF WADED ALL THE WAY INTO THE OTHER END OF THE POOL, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

ONE THING THAT I SAY TO PEOPLE A LOT IS TO NOT WASTE TIME ARGUING WITH STRANGERS ON THE INTERNET AND TO REALLY FOCUS ON THOSE CLOSE TO YOU, YOUR LOVED ONES, TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU CAN POSSIBLY TRY TO KEEP YOUR LOVED ONES WHO MIGHT BE ENGAGED IN CONSPIRACY THEORIES IN A CONVERSATION, ESPECIALLY A CONVERSATION ABOUT OTHER THINGS, YOU KNOW THINGS LIKE SHARED HOBBIES, SHARED INTERESTS, YOUR FAMILY, THINGS THAT ARE REALLY HAPPENING IN YOUR OWN LIVES AND PULL THEM AWAY FROM THE SORT OF MAYBE FALSE SENSE OF COMMUNITY OR PURPOSE THEY MIGHT BE FINDING AMONG INTERNET CONSPIRACY THEORISTS.

THAT CAN BE REALLY HELPFUL.

BUT YOU KNOW I THINK WE ARE AT A REAL TIPPING POINT AND I DON'T KNOW WHICH WAY IT IS GOING TO GO.

>>LORENE: WELL, IT IS VERY EASY FOR PEOPLE IN THESE SILOS TO THINK IT IS EITHER THE RIGHT WING OR THE LEFT WING AND ACTUALLY THERE ARE CONSPIRACY THEORIES GENERATED FROM ALL WINGS, ALL SIDES.

AND WHAT I LOVE IS HOW BLIND PEOPLE ARE TO THEIR OWN ACCEPTANCE OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT THEY THINK ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, BUT YOU ARE CRAZY TO BELIEVE THIS BUT I AM RIGHT.

AND THAT'S WHY I WANT TO GET BACK TO THAT SHARED FACTS AND SHARED REALITY.

YOUR BOOK IS CALLED THE REPUBLIC OF LIES AND I AM ASKING YOU, HOW CAN WE GET TO A REPUBLIC OF TRUTH, HOW CAN WE PROTECT OURSELVES AND WHAT SHOULD WE WATCH FOR?

>>ANNA: YOU KNOW ONE THING I TALK ABOUT A LOT IS THAT CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE MORE COMMON IN COUNTRIES WITH OPAQUE SYSTEMS OF POWER WHERE PEOPLE DON'T FEEL A TON OF TRUST IN THEIR INSTITUTIONS.

SO THE LONG TERM PROJECT IS TO MAKE A COUNTRY THAT WE CAN TRUST AGAIN, TO MAKE GOVERNMENTAL INSTITUTIONS THAT WE CAN TRUST WHETHER IT IS GOVERNMENTAL, LEGAL, MEDICAL AND IN DOING THAT, I THINK IT WILL REDUCE THE SPREAD OF DISTRUST.

YOU KNOW IN THE MEANTIME, I CAN SAY TOO THAT KEEP FUNDING NEWS SOURCES THAT YOU THINK ARE GOOD AND KEEP READING AND SHARING NEWS THAT YOU THINK IS USEFUL AND HELPFUL AND I GUESS YOU KNOW TRY TO DO EVERYTHING YOU POSSIBLY CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE PAYING AS MUCH ATTENTION TO PEOPLE SPREADING GOOD INFORMATION AS TO PEOPLE SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

SOMETIMES PEOPLE SPREADING THE MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION KIND OF SUCK ALL THE OXYGEN OUT OF THE ROOM, WE SAW THAT DURING THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

WE SEE THAT WITH SOME OF THE WORST SORT OF ONLINE MISINFORMATION PEDDLERS.

SO IN A WAY YOU SHOULD REWORD THE INFORMATION THAT YOU KNOW IS FACTUAL AND GOOD AND TRY TO ENGAGE WITH THAT AS MUCH AS WE CLICK ON AND SHARE AND REMARK ON THAT SORT OF BAD AND MALICIOUS STUFF, TOO.

>>LORENE: WELL, I THANK YOU SO MUCH, IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE IN BRITTAN FOR EXAMPLE, I CONSUME A LOT OF BRITISH NEWS, BBC AND THE GUARDIAN.

THEY HAVE A STRONGER TRUST IN THEIR GOVERNMENT AND THEY PARTICIPATE MORE IN THE VACCINE.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE WILL STRIVE, I THINK WE ARE MAKING STEPS FORWARD THROUGH TRANSPARENT AND A COMMON SORT OF REALITY AS FAR AS OUR NATIONAL POLITICS GO.

AND WHAT IS YOUR LAST WORD OF ADVICE FOR US AS WE STRUGGLE THROUGH THIS SWAMP?

>>ANNA: I DO THINK THAT IN SOME WAYS SOME THINGS ARE GETTING BETTER.

YOU KNOW I SAID EARLIER THAT LIKE 25 PERCENT OF AMERICANS ARE SAYING NOW THAT THEY WON'T ACCEPT A COVID VACCINE, THAT NUMBER WAS MUCH HIGHER A FEW MONTHS AGO.

AND THE REASON WHY IT HAS GONE DOWN IS BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN SEE DIRECTLY WITH THEIR OWN EYES THAT THE LIES THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD ABOUT THE COVID VACCINE BEING DANGEROUS ARE NOT TRUE.

SO YOU KNOW AS PESSIMISTIC AS I AM IN SOME WAYS, I ALSO TRUST PEOPLE'S GOOD JUDGEMENT I TRUST THEIR DESIRE TO DO WHAT IS BEST FOR THE COUNTRY AND I JUST SINCERELY HOPE THAT, AS YOU HOPE, WE CAN GET BACK TO A BETTER AND STRONGER UNION AND THE SOONER THE BETTER.

>>LORENE: WELL, I AM SO HAPPY YOU WERE ABLE TO COME AND SPEND TIME WITH US TODAY.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS ANNA MERLAN WHO WROTE REPUBLIC OF LIES , I CANNOT RECOMMEND THIS BOOK HIGHLY ENOUGH.

I REALLY LOVE IT, I HOPE YOU WILL COME BACK AGAIN AND KEEP US POSTED AS THE NEW LIZARD PEOPLE CRAWL OUT OF THEIR HOLES.

BUT THANK YOU VERY MUCH, ANNA MERLAN, IT IS JUST A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU.

>>ANNA: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ANYTIME.

>>LORENE: AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE , >>ANNOUNCER: REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NATIONAL EDUCATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF NEW MEXICO, AN ORGANIZATION OF PROFESSIONALS WHO BELIEVE THAT INVESTING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION IS AN INVESTMENT IN OUR STATE'S ECONOMIC FUTURE, FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM