REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE HAVE A VERY TIMELY AND PROFOUND INTERVIEW TODAY, OUR GUEST IS ANNA MERLAN.

SHE IS THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK CALLED REPUBLIC OF LIES: AMERICAN CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND THEIR SURPRISING RISE TO POWER.

AND IT IS A VERY VISIONARY BOOK BECAUSE NOW THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE REALLY KIND OF BOGGLE THE MIND.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW, ANNA.

>>ANNA: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND, I KNOW YOU ARE NEW MEXICO BORN AND THAT ALWAYS MEANS A LOT TO US, BUT YOU ARE A NEW YORK AND LOS ANGELES BASED JOURNALIST.

TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND.

>>ANNA: YES, I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN SANTA FE UNTIL I WAS 18.

I ATTENDED JOURNALISM SCHOOL IN NEW YORK, AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING AS A JOURNALIST FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS.

A LOT OF WHAT I FOCUS ON RIGHT NOW ARE CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND I ALSO FOCUS ON POLITICS, CRIME, CORRUPTION, ANYTHING THAT COMES MY WAY.

I WRITE FEATURES AT VICE AND THINGS THAT FOCUS ON LONG STORIES AND I LIKE TO GO INDEPTH.

>>LORENE: WELL, I LOVE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT YOU AND YOU MUST ADMIT IT IS AS GREAT LINE, "SHE HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING A LIZARD PERSON AND A CIA AGENT BUT NEVER AT THE SAME TIME," WHO SAID THAT?

>>ANNA: OH.

>>LORENE: YOU HEARD THAT.

>>ANNA: I WAS ACCUSED OF BEING A CIA AGENT WHEN I WAS ABOARD A CRUISE FOR CONSPIRACY THEORISTS.

THEY THOUGHT THAT I POSSIBLY WORKED FOR THE CIA WITHOUT KNOWING THAT I WORKED FOR THE CIA, WHICH I DIDN'T THINK WAS TRUE, I HAVE BEEN CALLED A LIZARD PERSON MANY TIMES ONLINE BY PEOPLE WHO EITHER BELIEVE IN LIZARDS FOR CONSPIRACY THEORIES OR BY PEOPLE WHO ARE ANTISEMITIC.

>>LORENE: AREN'T THE ROYAL FAMILY OF GREAT BRITAIN ALSO CALLED LIZARD PEOPLE?

>>ANNA: AH, THAT IS A THEORY ADVANCED BY A BRITISH FORMER SOCCER PRESENTER TURNED VERY WELL-KNOWN CONSPIRACY THEORIST NAMED DAVID ICKE.

HE HAS PROMULGATED THAT IDEA AND YES, HE STRONGLY BELIEVES THAT QUEEN ELIZABETH IS PART OF A RACE OF THE "TALL LIZARDS" WHO SECRETLY RULE THE WORLD.

>>LORENE: IT'S QUITE IMAGINATIVE.

THAT IS ONE THING THAT, AND WE WILL TALK ABOUT THE NEW CONSPIRACY THEORIES, BUT TELL ME ABOUT THE CONSPIRACY CRUISE THAT YOU WENT ON.

>>ANNA: YEAH, THE CONSPIRACY CRUISE I WENT ON WAS IN 2016, IT WAS THE START OF 2016 AND WHAT WAS VERY STRIKING ABOUT IT WAS THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON THE CRUISE, BOTH THE PRESENTERS AND THE GUESTS, WHO WERE REALLY EXCITED AT THAT TIME ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.

AND THESE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE BY AND LARGE NOT PARTICULARLY POLITICAL, A LOT OF THEM MIGHT HAVE CONSIDERED THEMSELVES TO BE MORE ON THE LEFT IF THEY WERE ANYWHERE AND SO THAT CRUISE WAS ONE OF MY FIRST INTIMATIONS THAT TRUMP HAD A REALLY BROAD BASE OF SUPPORT AMONG PEOPLE THAT WE MIGHT REFER TO AS CONSPIRACY THEORISTS AND THAT SUPPORT WAS GOING TO BE IMPORTANT FOR THE ELECTION, WHICH OF COURSE IT WAS.

IT WAS A VERY EVENTFUL CRUISE BESIDES, TWO OF THE ATTENDEES WERE ARRESTED AS SOON AS THEY WALKED OFF THE BOAT BY THE IRS AND THERE WERE TWO AND A THIRD PRESENTER ALL ENDED UP GOING TO PRISON IN THE FEW YEARS FOLLOWING THE CRUISE.

>>LORENE: WELL, WOULD YOU MIND BACKING UP IN CASE OUR AUDIENCE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND, WHAT IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY, WHO CREATES THEM, WHY THEY CREATE IT, AND THEN WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW?

>>ANNA: WELL, A CONSPIRACY THEORY THE MOST BASIC DEFINITION IS THAT IT IS A THEORY THAT A POWERFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE ARE WORKING IN SECRET AGAINST THE COMMON GOOD TO AFFECT SOME KIND OF NEGATIVE CHANGE IN SOCIETY TO HIDE A SECRET OR TO SEEK POWER.

AND A CONSPIRACY, OF COURSE, IS WHEN A POWERFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE OR SECRET GROUP OF PEOPLE ARE IN FACT PLOTTING TO DO ONE OF THOSE THINGS.

SO PART OF THE REASON WHY CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE SO COMMON ESPECIALLY IN THE UNITED STATES IS BECAUSE WE HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF ACTUAL CONSPIRACIES, ESPECIALLY ONES PROPAGATED BY THE GOVERNMENT.

AND SO OUR LONG HISTORY OF HAVING THINGS HIDDEN FROM US AS CITIZENS ALSO CREATES AT LEAST OTHER CONSPIRACIES AND THINGS THAT ARE STILL HIDDEN AND ARE POSSIBLE AND MAY COME TO LIFE.

SO CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE INCREDIBLY POLITICALLY AND SOCIALLY POWERFUL, WHICH IS WHY WE SEE SO MANY PROMOTING THEM.

>>LORENE: SO I HAD READ PERHAPS IN YOUR BOOK THAT THE PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE OF A CONSPIRACY THEORIST OFTEN IS LOWER LEVELS OF INTERPERSONAL TRUST AND PESSIMISM AND MAYBE A LOW INFORMATION, LOW EDUCATION LEVEL SO THAT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO FACT CHECK.

THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO ANY RESEARCH TO SEE IF ANY OF THIS IS TRUE.

AND ALSO BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF FEAR MONGERING AMONG THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES THEY ARE VERY VULNERABLE TO THAT WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TO CHECK IT.

>>ANNA: YEAH, CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE COMMON ACROSS A REALLY BROAD SECTOR OF THE POPULATION BUT WE DO KNOW THAT LOWER LEVELS OF EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENT ARE ONE PREDICTOR BUT THERE ARE ALSO PLENTY OF PEOPLE WITH PHDS.

AND YOU KNOW MDS WHO ARE INVOLVED, BUT YOU CANNOT ALWAYS PREDICT THOSE.

BUT, YEAH, THERE IS A VERY FAMOUS NEW JERSEY STUDY FROM 1994 THAT HAS ALSO BEEN BORNE OUT BY OTHER RESEARCH THAT SEEMS TO SHOW THAT PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN CONSPIRACY THEORIES TEND TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE PESSIMISTIC ABOUT THEIR OWN ROLE IN SOCIETY WHO FEEL LIKE THAT THESE SORT OF MECHANISMS OF SOCIETY ARE NOT LOOKING OUT FOR THEM AND WHO FEEL KIND OF LOST OUT OF OR IGNORED BY SOCIETY POWER.

SO THERE IS DEFINITELY A LINK BETWEEN FEELING DISAFFECTED IN SOME WAY AND HAVING A RECEPTIVENESS TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

>>LORENE: WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE NEW CONSPIRACY THEORIES, BUT THE OLD CONSPIRACY THEORIES THEY GO WAY, WAY BACK - THE EARTH IS FLAT, NOT ROUND, UFO ALIENS LIVE AMONG US, 9/11 WAS A GOVERNMENT PLOT, QANON, THAT'S A BIG ONE, THE CIA AND GOVERNMENT COVERUPS.

WHO KILLED JFK, WHO KILLED MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR, BIRTHERISM, VACCINES, WHITE SUPREMACY, PIZZAGATE, THERE'S ALL THESE OLD ONES.

BUT THE NEW ONES ARE REALLY SURPRISING TO ME.

NOW YOU WROTE A WONDERFUL PIECE, "AMERICA'S MOST INFLUENTIAL CONSPIRACY THEORISTS ARE GOING ALL-IN ON TRANSPHOBIA" OR "DRAG PANIC."

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT ONE, THEN MAYBE WE CAN MOVE INTO SOME OF THE ANTI-VAX STUFF AND OTHER NEW CONSPIRACIES.

>>ANNA: YEAH, SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE BEEN NOTICING THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A WHILE BUT IT IS LIKE MANY OF THEM ARE PROMINENT CONSPIRACY THEORISTS, YOU KNOW, IN THE ANTI-VACCINE SPACE.

PEOPLE LIKE ALEX JONES, FOLKS WHO TRADITIONALLY YOU WOULDN'T THINK WOULD BE REALLY INTERESTED IN THESE TOPICS ARE VERY INTENTLY FOCUSED ON DEMONIZING TRANSGENDER PEOPLE, DEMONIZING DRAG QUEENS, CREATING FEAR AND PANIC IN SPREADING MISINFORMATION ABOUT THESE PEOPLE AND THEIR ROLE IN SOCIETY AND WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO TO, YOU KNOW, TO OUR CHILDREN.

AND WE ARE SEEING MORE AND MORE OF THAT AND I ESSENTIALLY WROTE ABOUT THE WAYS THAT WHAT THESE FOLKS ARE DOING REALLY IS MIRRORING THE MAIN-STREAM DEHUMANIZATION OF TRANSPEOPLE AND DRAG QUEENS THAT WE ARE SEEING BY YOU KNOW ELECTED OFFICIALS AND PEOPLE AT ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT AND THEY ARE TRYING TO USE IT TO GROW THEIR AUDIENCE.

THEY ARE HOPING THAT THEY CAN PERHAPS PULL IN SOME PEOPLE WITH MORE MAIN-STREAM BELIEFS BY FEEDING THEM SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT MORE FAMILIAR AND THEN TYING IT BACK TO THEIR OWN SORT OF PET CAUSES.

SO, YEAH, WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF TRANS-PHOBIA AND STUFF ABOUT DRAG QUEENS AMONG PEOPLE WHO TRADITIONALLY DID NOT TALK ABOUT IT VERY MUCH.

>>LORENE: NOW THE ANTI-VAX THING.

"NOW THE ANTI-VACCINE WORLD IS MAD AS 'DIED SUDDENLY,' THE VIRAL ANTI-VAX DOCUMENTARY."

THEY ARE HAVING A BAD REACTION TO IT AND THEY HAVE ALL THESE THEORIES, VACCINES ARE MADE FROM SNAKE VENOM AND TO HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT MEDICINE AND SCIENCE, ANTI-SCIENCE, TALK TO ME ABOUT ANTI-VACCINE CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

>>ANNA: YEAH, SO IN THE INTRODUCTION THE WORLD HAS HAD A HUGE UPTICK OBVIOUSLY AS A RESULT OF COVID-19.

IT REALLY ALLOWED NON-VAXERS TO PROMOTE THEIR VIEWPOINTS TO A WHOLE NEW SET OF PEOPLE WHO MAYBE DIDN'T THINK ABOUT VACCINES THAT MUCH BEFORE.

YOU KNOW A LOT OF US WE WERE VACCINATED AT SCHOOL AGE OR WHEN WE HAD THE TROUBLE AND A LOT OF FOLKS DIDN'T THINK ABOUT IT AGAIN UNTIL THEIR OWN CHILDREN WERE IN SCHOOL.

WHAT COVID AND THE PANDEMIC DID WAS IT KIND OF FORCED EVERYONE TO HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT BEING VACCINATED BECAUSE WE HAD THIS NEW ROUND OF VACCINES WE WERE ALL ENCOURAGED TO TAKE.

AND SO ANTI-VACCINE CONSPIRACY PEDDLERS SAW THIS COMING WELL BEFORE THERE WAS ACTUALLY A COVID VACCINE AND STARTED TO LAY THE GROUNDWORK TO FEAR MONGER ABOUT IT QUITE A LONG TIME AGO.

I MEAN FEBRUARY 2020 WAS THE FIRST TIME I STARTED SEEING THIS BEFORE WE EVEN KNEW THAT COVID 19 WAS IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING MORE RECENTLY IS THAT WE HAVE SEEN AS LOT OF INFIGHTING AMONG ANTI-VACCINE INFLUENCERS.

THERE HAVE BEEN A SLATE OF LAWSUITS AND THREATENED LAWSUITS THAT THESE FOLKS HAVE BEEN FILING AGAINST EACH OTHER AND THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF CONTROVERSY OVER THINGS LIKE THIS VIRAL FAUX DOCUMENTARY CALLED "DIE SUDDENLY," THAT FALSELY CLAIMS THAT PEOPLE ARE YOU KNOW DROPPING DEAD FROM COVID VACCINES.

IT WAS INCREDIBLY POORLY DONE, IT WAS NOT FACT CHECKED AND IT WAS SO POORLY DONE THAT MEMBERS OF THE ANTI-VACCINE COMMUNITY DECIDED THAT IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN AN INSIDE JOB, DELIBERATELY BAD OR DELIBERATELY SILLY TO MAKE THEM LOOK BAD.

AND SO WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF THIS LATELY, WE'RE SEEING A LOT OF INSIDE FIGHTING AS THEIR KIND OF SHARED PURPOSE STARTS TO COME APART.

>>LORENE: ALSO, IT BORDERED ON THE ABSURD PEOPLE WERE SAYING, "OH MY GOD, BILL GATES IS INJECTING A CHIP INTO YOUR ARM WHEN YOU GET THE VACCINE."

AND ORDINARILY, I CAN SOMETIMES ADMIRE THE CREATIVITY OF SOME OF THESE THEORIES AND THEN SOMETIMES IT IS JUST WAY OFF THE DEEP END FOR ME.

>>ANNA: YEAH, UNFORTUNATELY, PARANOIA OVER MICROCHIPS IS INCREDIBLY COMMON THAT GOES BACK YOU KNOW PROBABLY TO THE 70S OR 80S I WOULD SAY AND I AM SURE A LOT OF YOUR VIEWERS MIGHT REMEMBER A STRANGE PARANOIA ABOUT BAR CODES ON YOUR GROCERY PRODUCTS BEING SOME KIND OF MICROCHIP.

THIS IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT TENDS TO OCCUR OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN NEW FORMS, AND IT IS NEVER TRUE BUT IT WORKS ON SOME SECTORS OF THE POPULATION ANYWAY.

>>LORENE: SO THERE'S OTHER MEDICAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

ONE IS THAT THERE IS REALLY A CURE FOR CANCER OR AIDS OR COVID, BUT THE GOVERNMENT IS COVERING IT UP SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE MONEY.

THERE IS A BIG INDUSTRY, OLD CONSPIRACY THEORIES WITH LAETRILE FROM ALMONDS CAN CURE CANCER AND THAT, OH MY GOD AND THEY HATE DR. FAUCI, YOU KNOW THEY FEEL HE IS NOT HELPING US THAT HE...AND THEN BY MAKING PEOPLE FEARFUL OF VACCINES, ESPECIALLY FOR COVID, IT HAS MADE 25% OF THE PEOPLE REFUSE TO GET VACCINATED WHICH REDUCES THE HERD IMMUNITY AND CREATES MORE VARIANTS THAT MAKES IT MORE VIRULENT AND MORE PEOPLE CAN CATCH IT.

>>ANNA: YEAH, I MEAN AT THIS POINT, WE ARE NEVER GOING TO SEE ANYTHING LIKE HERD OR COMMUNITY IMMUNITY FOR COVID IN PART BECAUSE OF VACCINE DISTRUST AND THEN PART BECAUSE COUNTRIES LIKE THE UNITED STATES DID NOT SHARE OUR VACCINE SUPPLIES EARLY ENOUGH.

A LOT OF YOUR VIEWERS WILL PROBABLY REMEMBER THE FIRST REALLY CURABLE VARIANT, THE DELTA VARIANT, CAME OUT OF INDIA AT A TIME WHEN FOLKS WERE NOT ABLE TO GET VACCINATED VERY QUICKLY THERE AND SO THERE WAS KIND OF AN UNCHECKED VARIANT.

SO, THERE ARE A LOT OF FAILURES THERE BESIDES CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

BUT, YEAH, CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND MEDICAL DISTRUST MORE BROADLY ARE INCREDIBLY COMMON AND A HUGE PROBLEM IN THE US SOME OF OUR RESEARCH SAYS THAT AS MANY AS ONE IN THREE PEOPLE HOLD AT LEAST ONE MEDICAL CONSPIRACY THEORY AND THAT HAS HUGE IMPLICATIONS FOR HOW WE MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT OUR HEALTH.

IT IS ALSO WORTH POINTING OUT THAT PEOPLE WHO PROMOTE MEDICAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE OFTEN SELLING SOMETHING, I MEAN THAT QUITE LITERALLY.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

>>ANNA: WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SOMEONE LIKE ALEX JONES, HE HAS PROMOTED ANY NUMBER OF ANTI-VACCINE AND OTHER MEDICAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES, HE SOLD SUPPLEMENTS THAT CONSTITUTE A HUGE PORTION OF HIS INCOME.

ONE OF THE MOST WELL-KNOWN SORT OF NATURAL HEALTH AND WELLNESS CONSPIRACY PEDDLERS, JOSEPH MERCOLA, AGAIN HAS AN ENORMOUS LINE OF HIS OWN HEALTH AND WELLNESS PRODUCTS.

SO QUITE LITERALLY A LOT OF TIMES DISCOURAGING SOME PEOPLE FROM GETTING VACCINATED IS ALSO MEANT TO SERVE THE PURPOSE OF DRIVING FOLKS TOWARDS THESE ALTERNATIVE PRODUCTS THAT ARE FOR SALE BY THESE PEOPLE.

>>LORENE: WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH ANNA MERLAN ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

SHE HAS WRITTEN A BOOK CALLED, REPUBLIC OF LIES: ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES , VERY VISIONARY BOOK AND NOW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE MODERN PRESENTATION OF SOME THESE CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

SO WE HAVE DONE SOME OF THE MEDICAL ONES, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT TUCKER CARLSON.

YOU WRITE A GREAT ARTICLE "TUCKER CARLSON REPACKAGED THE INTERNET FOR HIS TERRIFIED ELDERLY AUDIENCE," AND HE WAS RECENTLY FIRED BY FOX.

SO WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT SITUATION, BECAUSE HE WAS ALLOWED TO LIE ON THE AIR, THEY NEVER SAID WHAT HE WAS SAYING WASN'T TRUE AND NOW HE HAS BEEN FIRED.

>>ANNA: YES.

FOX NEWS ALLOWED HIM TO LIE AND SO MEANT HE STOOD WITH ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE AND PROMOTE WHAT ARE COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD TO BE WHITE NATIONALIST TALKING POINTS ON HIS TELEVISION SHOW FOR YEARS.

HE WAS EVENTUALLY FIRED BECAUSE WHEN FOX NEWS WAS SUED BY THE DOMINION VOTING MACHINE COMPANY, THE PROCESS OF DISCOVERY FOR THAT LAWSUIT TURNED UP FROM WHERE CARLSON TUCKER WAS TALKING DISPARAGINGLY ABOUT HIS EMPLOYER.

SO IT IS IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT HE WAS PROBABLY NOT SEPARATED FROM THE COMPANY FOR LYING.

THERE IS A PIECE THAT I WROTE ABOUT THAT TALKS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT A STREAMING SERVICE, A SHOW THAT TUCKER CARLSON HAD ON FOX'S STREAMING SERVICE, CALLED FOX NATION AIRS ONLINE AND PRETTY MUCH THE ONLY DRAW FOR FOX NATION WAS TUCKER CARLSON.

SO HE HAD TWO SHOWS ON THAT PLATFORM.

ONE WAS CALLED TUCKER CARLSON TODAY AND IT WAS SORT OF AN INTERVIEW STYLE SHOW LIKE THIS BUT NOT AS GOOD.

AND THE OTHER ONE WAS CALLED TUCKER CARLSON ORIGINALS AND IT WAS HIS SORT OF FAUX DOCUMENTARY SERIES.

AND WHAT I WROTE ABOUT IS THAT HE USED ALL OF HIS SHOWS, BUT ESPECIALLY THE TUCKER CARLSON ORIGINALS , THE DOCUMENTARY SERIES WHO INTRODUCES HIS AUDIENCE TO AN ARRAY OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT WE MOSTLY SEE ONLINE AND ON THE FAR RIGHT.

SO THINGS LIKE THE CONSPIRACY THEORY THAT THE US GOVERNMENT WANTS TO FORCE US ALL OR THE WORLD GOVERNMENT WANTS TO FORCE US ALL TO EAT INSECTS AND YOU KNOW THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE AWAY OUR BEEF AND WILL ONLY ALLOW US TO EAT INSECTS OR THE CONSPIRACY THEORY THAT CATTLE MUTILATIONS ARE CAUSED BY ALIENS.

>>LORENE: OH YES, OH THE CLASSIC.

>>ANNA: THE VERY FRINGE OF INTERNET IDEAS AND TUCKER CARLSON KIND OF INTRODUCES US TO THE NEW CROWDS.

>>LORENE: ALSO, WHAT WE LEARN FROM HIS FIRING IS THAT SOMEBODY IS FINALLY AWARE THAT THERE WAS A PIPELINE CONNECTING FRINGE CONSPIRACY THEORISTS TO MAIN-STREAM MEDIA.

AND THE FACT THAT SAY DURING THE ELECTION AND WITH THE DOMINION THAT HE KNEW THAT WHEN THEY SAID THAT THEY HAD STOLEN THE ELECTION THAT IT WAS CORRUPT, THERE WERE TEXT MESSAGES WHERE HE KNEW THAT WASN'T TRUE AND YET HE WAS ALLOWED TO GO ON THERE AND SAY IT WITH NOBODY PUSHING BACK ON HIM.

>>ANNA: YES, EXTREMELY INTERESTING TO ME AND I EXPECT THAT WE WILL LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS, THE FACT THAT HE DID PROMOTE ELECTION CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT RIGGED VOTING MACHINES AS HE SAID IN THOSE TEXT MESSAGES AND NOT FINDING THEM CONVINCING HIMSELF.

YOU REALLY DO WONDER WHY HE DID THAT.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE HAVE ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., A NOTED ANTI-VAXER, A MAJOR CONSPIRACY THEORIST IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

THAT IS MAINSTREAMING, THAT GOING PRETTY MAINSTREAM, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>>ANNA: IT IS REALLY INTERESTING TO ME THAT HE IS CHOOSING TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.

OBVIOUSLY, ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR. HAS A PRETTY BIG PUBLIC PROFILE, HE IS THE OF COURSE ONE OF BOBBY KENNEDY'S SONS.

HE IS THE NEPHEW OF JFK, HE COMES FROM YOU KNOW, THE BIGGEST POLITICAL DYNASTY IN THE COUNTRY.

BUT HE HAS ALSO BEEN A MAJOR ANTI-VACCINE ACTIVIST FOR A VERY LONG TIME, HAS BEEN GENERATING HEADLINES ABOUT THIS FOR AN EXTREMELY LONG TIME.

I WOULD SAY THAT HIS DECIDING TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT SEEMS TO INDICATE THAT HE THINKS THAT FOLKS WITH EITHER BE RECEPTIVE TO HIS IDEAS ABOUT VACCINES OR AT LEAST WILL NOT SEE THAT AS A DETERRENT FROM VOTING FOR HIM.

HE IS RUNNING AS A DEMOCRAT, HE IS RUNNING AGAINST PRESIDENT BIDEN AND IN THE DEMOCRATIC RACE, WE WILL SEE HOW THAT GOES.

AT THE MOMENT, HE IS DOING SOMETHING SORT OF INTERESTING WITH HIS CAMPAIGN STRATEGY WHICH IS THAT HE IS REALLY DOWN PLAYING HIS ANTI-VACCINE ACTIVISM IN INTERVIEWS AND IN HIS ANNOUNCEMENT THAT HE DELIVERED IN BOSTON A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO.

DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW THAT THIS COULD HAVE BEEN HIS LIFE'S WORK FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, SO I'M INTERESTED TO SEE WHY HE IS DOING THAT AND HOW VOTERS WILL INTERPRET THAT.

>>LORENE: I'D LIKE TO QUICKLY, THERE ARE SO MANY WE COULD TALK ABOUT BUT JUST THE LAST ONE I WANT TO TALK ABOUT AND THEN I WANT TO TALK ABOUT DEBUNKING THESE MYTHS.

BUT THE ELECTORAL CONSPIRACIES, MISINFORMATION, DISINFORMATION, AND THE BIG LIE THAT TRUMP REALLY WON THE ELECTION.

SO HOW DO WE AND THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE THESE DAYS WHO ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT TRUMP WON AND IT IS ALL A BIG LIE AND THAT BIDEN IS NOT LEGITIMATE AND YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THEM.

THEY DON'T WANT TO LISTEN TO REASON, YOU CAN'T GIVE THEM FACTS AND YOU CAN'T SHAME THEM, THEY ARE SHAMELESS.

>>ANNA: YEAH.

YOU KNOW ELECTORAL CONSPIRACIES THEORIES ARE INCREDIBLY COMMON.

WE HAVE BEEN SEEING THEM IN THE UNITED STATES ALMOST SINCE WE HAVE HAD AN ELECTORAL SYSTEM.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE CORRUPT BARGAIN WHICH WAS AN ENORMOUS SORT OF POLITICAL GAMBLE IN THE 1800S.

I HAD TALKED IT UP BEFORE IN LECTURES BUT THERE WAS A PATENT CREATED ALMOST AS SOON AS WE HAD AN ELECTORAL SYSTEM FOR A GLASS BALLOT BOX, BECAUSE FEARS OVER BALLOT RIGGING WAS STILL PROMINENT THAT AN INVENTOR DECIDED TO PATENT THIS GLASS BALLOT BOX THAT WOULD BE USED TO PROMOTE LIKE LITERAL ELECTORAL TRANSPARENCY.

AND WE'VE SEEN PARANOIA OVER RIGGED ELECTIONS ALMOST EVERY PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE SAID THAT THE ELECTION WAS UNFAIR, WAS RIGGED, OF COURSE, PRIOR TO THE 2020 ELECTIONS, THE MOST KIND OF VIRULENT VERSION OF THAT WAS THE PERSISTENT AND FALSE AND RACIST CLAIM THAT BARACK OBAMA WAS NOT A LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT, THE FALSE CLAIM THAT HE WAS BORN IN KENYA.

SO IN SOME WAYS, ELECTORAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE THE MOST ESTABLISHED IN AMERICAN LIFE, THEY ARE NOT REALLY SURPRISING.

BUT AS WE SEE THEY CAN CREATE TREMENDOUS INSTABILITY.

JANUARY 6 REALLY SHOWED US THAT THEY CAN LEAD TO OUTRIGHT MOB VIOLENCE.

SO THERE IS A REASON WHY WE WORRY ABOUT THEM AND THERE IS A REASON WHY SO MANY FOLKS ARE FOCUSED ON TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO REDUCE THE THREAT ESPECIALLY FOR LOCAL CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

>>LORENE: SO LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE TOOLS FOR DEBUNKING THESE.

THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED, ONE WAY THEY WERE PRESENTED WAS A FACT SANDWICH WHERE THERE WOULD BE TRUTH AND LITTLE LIES STUCK IN THERE AND TRUTH ON THE OTHER SIDE AND THEY COULD JUST GET THAT LIE UNCHALLENGED BECAUSE IT WAS SURROUNDED BY TRUTH.

WHAT IS PRE-BUNKING, WHEN YOU PEDDLE FAKE, TELL ME ABOUT PRE-BUNKING.

>>ANNA: SO THIS COMES FROM A REALLY INTERESTING 2019 STUDY BY THESE TWO RESEARCHERS I BELIEVE THEY WERE BRITISH.

AND ESSENTIALLY WHAT THEY DID WAS THEY CREATED A COMPUTER GAME, AN ONLINE GAME WHERE YOU AS A PLAYER POSED AS A FAKE NEWS PEDDLER AND IN DOING SO, YOU LEARN THE TOOLS THAT ARE USED TO SPREAD MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION.

THE TOOLS ARE INVOKING STRONG EMOTION, IMPERSONATION, THERE ARE ALL THESE, I THINK THERE ARE LIKE SEVEN TOOLS THAT ARE COMMONLY USED BY PEOPLE TRYING TO SPREAD THAT INFORMATION.

AND WHAT THE RESEARCHERS FOUND IS WHEN PEOPLE PLAY THIS GAME AND POSED AS FAKE NEWS SELLERS THEMSELVES, THEY WERE MUCH BETTER SUBSTANTIVELY AT IDENTIFYING FAKE NEWS HEADLINES.

SO IT SEEMED TO WORK ALMOST LIKE A VACCINE, ALMOST LIKE AN INOCULATION.

WELL AS PEOPLE GOT MORE AWARE OF THESE TOOLS THAT WERE BEING USED TO MANIPULATE THEM THEY WERE LESS SUSCEPTIBLE TO FALLING FOR THEM.

SO THIS IS REALLY EXCITING, IT HAS A LOT OF JUST VERY OPTIMISTIC POSSIBILITIES FOR US AS A SOCIETY BECAUSE IT DOESN'T RELY ON HAVING TO NECESSARILY PERSUADE PEOPLE IF SOMETHING HAPPENS.

IN FACT, IT GIVES THEM CRITICAL THINKING TOOLS THAT THEY CAN USE FOR THEMSELVES WHEN EVALUATING INFORMATION.

>>LORENE: WELL WE ARE GETTING LOW ON TIME AND I WANT TO ASK YOU, WHAT IS COMING IN THE FUTURE, BECAUSE WE HAVE GOT AI, WE HAVE DEEP FAKE VIDEOS, DISINFORMATION AND THINGS THAT USED TO BE AMBIGUOUS AND FUN LIKE THE X-FILES, "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE" HAVE NOW BECOME A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER.

>>ANNA: YEAH.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS AN ENORMOUS CONCERN FOR US JOURNALISTS, FOR RESEARCHERS, AND THE TECH STATE.

AI IMAGES ARE GETTING SO MUCH BETTER, DEEP FAKES ARE VIDEOS MADE TO LOOK LIKE SOMEONE IS SPEAKING WHEN THEY ARE NOT FOR INSTANCE.

THEY SINCE HAVE GOTTEN REALLY GOOD AND THEY ARE CONTINUING TO GET BETTER AND IT IS GOING TO GET HARDER AND HARDER FOR PEOPLE TO TRUST WHAT THEY SEE ON THE INTERNET.

IT ALSO IS GOING TO ALLOW PEOPLE, BAD ACTORS, TO HAVE SOME DEGREE OF PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY WHEN THEY WANT TO GET OUT OF HAVING, YOU KNOW, TAKING ACCOUNTABILITY FOR SOMETHING THEY DID OR SAID, THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO SAY, "YOU KNOW, WELL THIS IS JUST A DEEP FAKE, THAT'S JUST AN AI PHOTO OF ME DOING THAT."

SO THIS IS A REAL CONCERN AND WE ARE GOING TO NEED BETTER TOOLS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO IDENTIFY THESE IMAGES AND THESE DEEP FAKE VIDEOS.

>>LORENE: BUT WE ALSO NEED TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC, THE PEOPLE WHO CONSUME THESE IMAGES AND ALSO SOCIAL MEDIA IS A REAL PROBLEM BECAUSE NOBODY POLICES, THERE IS NO REALITY CHECK, THERE IS NO TRUTH CHECKING.

AND SO PEOPLE CAN PUT DOCTORED PHOTOGRAPHS, DOCTORED AUDIO, THEY CAN ACTUALLY SPLICE TOGETHER A SPEECH THAT SAYS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE SPEAKER WAS REALLY TRYING TO SAY.

SO HOW DO WE, OH GOSH, WE ARE ALMOST OUT OF TIME, HOW DO WE EDUCATE THE CONSUMER OF THESE AND THEN HOW DO WE FIND THE TRUTH, YOU WROTE ABOUT THE REPUBLIC OF LIES , IT IS REALLY STRONG RIGHT NOW AND SO, HOW CAN WE FIND THE TRUTH?

>>ANNA: SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES DO TRY TO FACT CHECK AND FLAG FALSE IMAGES, FALSE CLAIMS BUT THEY TEND TO ALWAYS BE KIND OF ONE STEP BEHIND ON THE THINGS THAT THEY ARE ESPECIALLY SEEMS TO BE MORE ABOUT THINGS THAT THEY FEAR AS COMPANIES WILL GET THEM SUED RATHER THAN ABOUT PROMOTING TRUTH OR PROMOTING THE BEST INFORMATION POSSIBLE.

I THINK OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE MAJOR SORT OF TOOLS THAT WE ARE GOING TO NEED IS TEACHING YOUR PEOPLE IN MIDDLE SCHOOL, HIGH SCHOOL MAYBE AS YOUNG AS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, TOOLS FOR TRYING TO EVALUATE IF THESE SOURCES ARE REAL OR NOT.

WE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO EVALUATE SOMEONE'S CLAIMS AS BASIC TECH LITERACY SO THEY WILL BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY SOMEONE'S WEBSITE OR YOU KNOW DOCTORED IMAGES.

AS OF RIGHT NOW, FOR INSTANCE, AI IMAGES STILL HAVE SOMECHALLENGES THERE HAS BEEN A LOT WRITTEN ABOUT THIS, BUT FOR SOME REASON AI MODELS CAN'T GET PEOPLE'S HANDS RIGHT SO A LOT OF TIMES THE AI IMAGE WILL HAVE THE WRONG NUMBER FINGERS BUT WE ARE NOT ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE THINGS AS SIMPLE AS THAT TO LOOK OUT FOR.

SO WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE INCREDIBLY PROACTIVE IN LEARNING THE TOOLS THAT MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION ARE USING AND CONSTANTLY UPDATE NEW WAYS TO RESPOND TO THEM.

IT IS A HUGE TASK, IT IS GOING TO BE A TASK OF OUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN.

>>LORENE: AND WE HAVE TO TEACH MEDIA LITERACY.

YOU KNOW IN SCHOOL IT IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT SKILLS FOR OUR CITIZENS IS TO LEARN WHEN THEY ARE BEING CONNED OR NOT.

BUT I JUST WANT TO THANK YOU OUR GUEST TODAY IS ANNA MERLAN WHO WROTE THE REPUBLIC OF LIES: AMERICAN CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND THEIR SURPRISING RISE TO POWER , BECAUSE THEY HAVE BECOME MORE POWERFUL SINCE YOU WROTE THIS.

I AM SO GRATEFUL FOR YOUR COMING ON THE SHOW BUT ALSO FOR YOUR BRINGING OUR ATTENTION TO WHAT IS GOING ON AND WHAT WE NEED TO DO, YOU KNOW.

TO FIND TRUTH AND TO PROTECT OURSELVES.

SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH, ANNA, FOR JOINING US TODAY.

>>ANNA: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE SURE LEARNED A LOT AND I AM VERY GRATEFUL.

AND I AM LORENE MILLS AND I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM