REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS, AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA F.<br/> I AM SO EXCITED ABOUT TODAY'S SHOW BECAUSE OUR GUEST IS ANNA SOFAER, AND SHE IS AN EXPERT ON CHACO ASTRONOMY, BUT ALSO THEIR COSMOGRAPHY, ALL THE ROADS AND RITUAL POWER.

IT'S A UNIQUE, EXTRAORDINARY CIVILIZATION AND I HAVE SO MUCH TO ASK YOU ABOUT, LIKE HOW DID YOU FIRST DISCOVER THIS BECAUSE YOU MADE AN EARTH SHATTERING DISCOVERY OF THE SUN DAGGER IN WHAT YEAR?

>>ANNA: THAT WAS 1977.

>>LORENE: AND NOW YOU'RE STILL FINDING OUT MORE THINGS ON THE WIDER RANGE OF THIS CULTURE IN THIS WORK.

SO BEFORE WE GET STARTED TALKING, I WANT TO SHOW THE TRAILER THAT WAS MADE ABOUT THIS BECAUSE IN A REGULAR DISCUSSION THERE'S NO WAY TO GET A SENSE OF THE VASTNESS OF THE TOPOGRAPHY OF THE LANDSCAPE AND SO WE'LL SHOW THE SHORT TRAILER.

AND THEN I'D LIKE YOU TO TELL ME HOW YOU FOUND THIS, HOW ANYBODY FOUND IT AND WHEN IT WAS FOUND AND THE CHANGES THAT YOU'VE GONE IN THE 40 YEARS SINCE YOU HAVE FOUND IT, WHAT HAVE YOU FOUND MORE, BUT LET'S JUST TAKE A MOMENT IN THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST, WITH MEXICO AND CENTRAL AMERICA TO THE SOUTH, THE VAST DESERT REACHES AS FAR AS THE MIND CAN IMAGINE.

ITS BEAUTY ALLURING AND MAGNETIC AND YET FOREBODING IN ITS SPARSENESS.

AT ITS HEART LIES CHACO CANYON, 1000 YEARS AGO A PEOPLE UNDAUNTED BY THE CANYON'S BARREN LANDSCAPE CONSTRUCTED MONUMENTAL BUILDINGS FOR RITUALS ATTENDING TO THE SUN AND TO THE MOON, A CEREMONIAL CENTER OF MAGNIFICENT ARCHITECTURE NOT SEEN BEFORE OR AFTER IN THE HISTORY OF NORTH AMERICA.

CREATED BY A CIVILIZATION THAT CONSTRUCTED MORE THAN 150 RELATED STRUCTURES SET IN RUGGED AND CHALLENGING LANDSCAPES BUILT ACROSS AN EXPANSE OF 70,000 SQUARE MILES WITHOUT BEAST OF BURDEN, USING TOOLS MADE ONLY OF WOOD AND STONE.

IN THIS LAND OF LITTLE WATER, A DAGGER OF LIGHT CROSSES AN ANCIENT SPIRAL, A PUZZLING ENGRAVING MARKS THE ROCK WALL IN A CANYON WORN BY WEATHER AND A LONG-VANISHED OCEAN.

NEARLY INVISIBLE ROADS, UP TO 35 MILES IN LENGTH, SPREAD ACROSS THE LANDSCAPE, STONE BUILDINGS ALIGNED WITH THE SUN AND THE MOON, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THESE STRUCTURES REMAIN A MYSTERY, THEIR HISTORY SHROUDED BEHIND A VEIL THAT LEFT NO WRITTEN LANGUAGE AND FEW REPRESENTATIONS OF THEMSELVES.

CHACO, WE DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THEM IN SOME WAYS, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT LANGUAGE IS SPOKEN, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR RELIGION WAS AND WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW THEIR THINKING WENT UNLESS YOU LOOK AT THE ASTRONOMY.

FOR MORE THAN 300 YEARS, GENERATION UPON GENERATION, THE ASTRONOMERS OF CHACO TRACKED AND UNDERSTOOD THE MOVEMENTS OF THE SUN AND THE MOON.

THE LEGACY OF CHACO OFFERS A UNIQUE WINDOW INTO THE PAST, A PLACE WHERE TIME AND SPACE MERGE, THE WORLD OF >>LORENE: WELL, THAT WAS SO BEAUTIFULLY DONE.

AND I'M JUST SO PLEASED THAT NOW OUR GUESTS, OUR AUDIENCE, CAN SEE THAT THERE IS NO SCIENCE POINTING, YOU KNOW, MAGIC STUFF OVER HERE, YOU KNOW, IT'S WAY UP, TALK A LITTLE ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE BUTTE AND HOW EXTRAORDINARY IT WAS THAT THEY PUT IT THERE AND THAT ANYBODY EVER FOUND IT.

>>ANNA: YES.

WELL, I WENT TO CHACO BECAUSE, WELL ACTUALLY, I WAS AN ARTIST THEN AND I WAS FASCINATED BY ROCK ART AND I SAW A LITTLE NOTICE THAT YOU COULD GO TO CHACO CANYON AND JOIN A GROUP OF VOLUNTEERS THAT RECORD ROCK ART.

AND I WAS YOUNG AND ABLE AND FIT AND THERE WAS A GUY WHO WAS, WE WERE BEING INVITED TO WORK ON THE FAJADA BUTTE.

I THOUGHT LOOKING AT IT FROM THE CAMPGROUND, WELL, THAT'S PRETTY HIGH, BUT DOESN'T LOOK THAT HIGH AND HE HAD GREAT EQUIPMENT, SO I JOINED HIM, JAY CROWDY.

WE HAD TWO DAYS THERE, AND WE WENT UP THE FIRST DAY TO LOOK AT THE TOP, AND WE DID GET TO THE SITE WHERE THE THREE SLABS ARE AGAINST THE CLIFF FACE, RIGHT THERE, AND THERE WAS A SPIRAL BEHIND THE ROCKS AND WE SAID, WELL, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH LIGHT LET'S COME BACK THE NEXT DAY.

AND WE JUST HAPPENED TO GET THERE AT THE MOMENT AND POST THE SOLSTICE WHEN THIS WAS HAPPENING.

>>LORENE: LOOK AT THAT, AND THAT IS CALLED THE SUN DAGGER BECAUSE THAT BEAM OF LIGHT CUTS RIGHT THROUGH THAT SPIRAL, 15-INCH SPIRAL.

>>ANNA: EXACTLY.

>>LORENE: RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE.

>>ANNA: AND IT'S SO SMALL AND YET IT'S SO BIG.

WHAT IT'S SAYING IS IT'S NOON AND CLOSE TO NOON AND VERY CLOSE TO SOLSTICE.

SO I DID KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT ASTRONOMY OF HOW THE ANCIENT PEOPLE DID SHADOW AND LIGHT AND HOW SOLSTICES WOULD BE IMPORTANT.

SO I KIND OF THOUGHT, WELL, THIS IS THE HIGHEST PART OF THE SUN IN THE DAY AND THE YEAR, SO IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE AND NOT ONLY THAT AS AN ARTIST.

I SAW HOW BEAUTIFUL IT WAS AND THAT KIND OF HELPED ME THROUGH THE NEXT DECADES TO HOLD ON TO THE POWER OF THE IMAGE THAT I INITIALLY FOUND.

>>LORENE: NOW, YOU WERE INTERESTED NOT ONLY IN THE LIGHT, THE SUN DAGGER, BUT IN SHADOW.

I THINK YOU HAVE A PICTURE OF THE OTHER IMPORTANT ASTRONOMICAL CELESTIAL SKY MARK, SHOW US.

>>ANNA: SO WE FOUND THE WINTER SOLSTICE, YOU HAVE TWO DAGGERS OF LIGHT COMING THROUGH THE TWO OPENINGS BECAUSE THERE ARE THREE ROCK SLABS AGAINST THE CLIFF BASE.

>>LORENE: MY GOODNESS.

>>ANNA: BY THE TIME THE SUN HAS GOTTEN QUITE LOW IN WINTER SOLSTICE, IT CREATES THESE TWO THAT FRAME THE CENTER.

>>LORENE: COMPLETELY FRAME THE SPIRAL.

>>ANNA: EXACTLY WHERE THE SPIRAL WHERE THE DAGGER WAS BISECTED, IT'S NOW HELD EMPTY IN WINTER WHEN THE SUN IS AT THE LOWEST.

>>LORENE: SO WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THIS, OBVIOUSLY THEY WERE KEEN OBSERVERS OF NATURE AND OF THE SKIES, BUT WE DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THEM, WHAT THEIR LANGUAGE WAS, HOW LONG AGO WAS THIS.

>>ANNA: WELL, WE KNOW MORE AND MORE, CERTAINLY MORE THAN WHEN I FOUND THIS IN 1977 AND IT'S COME FROM TECHNOLOGY AND GATHERING OF MORE DATA.

IT'S FASCINATING BECAUSE IT REALLY TURNS OUT THAT CHACO WAS NOT A VERY RESIDENTIAL SITE.

THE SOIL HAS BEEN ANALYZED, HOW ARID THE ENVIRONMENT IS, HAS TOLD US THAT PEOPLE HAD TO IMPORT ALMOST ALL OF THE FOOD, CERAMICS, TIMBER.

>>LORENE: THE TIMBERS, FROM HOW FAR AWAY THE WOOD WHEN THE CHUSKA MOUNTAINS, 55 MILES AWAY AND THE TIMBERS WERE CUT WITH STONE AXES AND WITH NO BEAST OF BURDEN OR ANYTHING, THEY HAD TO BE CARRIED, THE STONE, SOME STONES WERE THERE OBVIOUSLY, BUT THE TIMBER AND IT WAS JUST SO LABOR INTENSIVE.

>>ANNA: AND THE MASSIVE 240,000 TIMBERS JUST FOR THE CENTRAL BUILDINGS AND THE ORGANIZATION TO DO IT.

I MEAN WHEN WE SAY DO WE KNOW SOMETHING, NO, THEY DIDN'T HAVE WRITING, BUT WHAT WE FIND IN THE SCIENCE OF STUDYING THE DATA, IT'S SHOWING THAT THEY WERE VERY POWERFUL PEOPLE, THAT THEY HAD TREMENDOUS ORGANIZATIONAL SKILLS, ENGINEERING, ARCHITECTURE AND ASTRONOMY, AND THEY WERE PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER.

>>LORENE: TELL ME ABOUT THE GREAT PUEBLO BONITO AND THEN THE GREAT KIVA THERE, IF YOU HAVE ANY PICTURES OF IT.

HOW BIG WAS THIS GREAT KIVA AND WAS IT ACTUALLY, DID IT HAVE A ROOF, ALL THESE TREES WERE BROUGHT.

>>ANNA: YES.

THE NIETO SO COMPLEX, 800 ROOMS AND FOUR STORIES HIGH, SOME PEOPLE THINK FIVE STORIES HIGH, WHICH IS THE ENGINEERING AGAIN THAT IS SO EXTRAORDINARY.

>>LORENE: BUT IT WASN'T FOR DWELLING, IT WAS ONLY HIGH PRIESTS, PHILOSOPHERS... >>ANNA: AND COMMEMORATION OF THEM AND THE BURIALS IN THE BACK OF THE BUILDING.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED OVER 300 YEARS IN THAT SAME AREA, ENORMOUSLY IMPORTANT MATERIAL, RITUAL OBJECTS WERE PUT THERE.

55,000 PIECES OF VERY FINE TURQUOISE, MORE TURQUOISE THAN HAS BEEN FOUND IN ALL OF THE SOUTHWEST.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOSH.

>>ANNA: SO JUST THAT LITTLE FACT TELLS YOU SOMETHING ABOUT THEM.

>>LORENE: ANOTHER FACT THAT INTRIGUES ME IS THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED THE NORTH ROAD AND IT WAS AN ACTUAL ROAD, BUT THESE ROADS WERE NOT USED LIKE WE DO FOR COMMERCE OR TRANSPORTATION, THEY WERE 30 FEET WIDE.

>>ANNA: THEY WERE EXCAVATED.

>>LORENE: AND ON THE SIDES THEY HAD BERMS WITH SACRED OBJECTS ALL THE WAY ALONG IT.

>>ANNA: WELL, SOMETIMES.

>>LORENE: SOMETIMES.

>>ANNA: DROPPING OF POTS AND NOT ONE POT DROPPED IT, SO SOMEBODY WAS WALKING IN, BUT PIECES OF POTTERY THAT CAME FROM DIFFERENT POTS WHICH WAS AN EFFORT, WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHY, BUT TO BRING IN ALL OF THAT, RATHER THAN, YOU KNOW, UTILITARIAN EXPLANATION, YOU KNOW PEOPLE WERE UP THERE DROPPING POTS.

IT'S CEREMONIAL EXPRESSION.

>>LORENE: YES, AND SO THAT THEY CALLED THE NORTH ROAD WAS ACTUALLY A PHILOSOPHICAL WAY OF LIFE.

IT WASN'T JUST THIS HERE ROAD HERE, GOING THERE, BECAUSE IT DIDN'T GO TO ANY COMMUNITY AND THEN THERE WAS A WHOLE NETWORK OF ROADS.

ONE THING I'VE WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT FOR A LONG TIME, SO WHAT WAS THE EXPANSE OF THIS CIVILIZATION, OF THIS CULTURE?

>>ANNA: WELL, THAT'S ALSO SO NEW.

WHEN I FIRST WORK THERE, IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE WEREN'T THINKING BEYOND ABOUT 15 MILES OUTSIDE OF THE CANYON AS BEING CHACOAN AND IT JUST EXPANDED.

THEN IT WAS THE SAN JUAN BASIN, AND THAT WAS A NEW PARADIGM, AND THAT'S ABOUT 35,000 MILES.

AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE I WORKED WITH HAD MARVELOUS INGENUITY TO GO OUT THERE, PNM SUPPORTED A STUDY, AND THEY FOUND, WHAT, ABOUT 50 MORE OUTLYING SITES?

NOW WE HAVE 150 GREAT HOUSE SITES, OFTEN ALMOST ALL WITH ROADS, AND THAT COVERS THE WHOLE FOUR CORNERS, 70,000 SQUARE MILES.

SO IT'S DOUBLE WHAT WAS THOUGHT ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO, IT'S AMAZING.

>>LORENE: AND IS THAT NOT ONE OF THE LARGEST FOOTPRINTS OF A CIVILIZATION IN THE SOUTHWEST?

>>ANNA: IT REALLY MATCHES THE AZTEC, IT'S CLOSE TO THE AZTEC CIVILIZATION EXPANSE.

IT'S EVEN SOMEWHAT CLOSE, I THINK ABOUT 70% OF WHAT THE MAYA HAD, BUT DIFFERENT FROM THE MAYA CITY STATES BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL SEPARATE.

WHAT'S SO IMPRESSIVE WHEN YOU COMPARE IT WITH OTHER ANCIENT SITES IS THAT THE CENTER IS BONITO TO THAT 70,000 SQUARE MILES.

AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE INCREASINGLY SEEING THAT, THAT THAT WAS THE HEART, CHACO WAS THE HEART, CHACO WAS THE SOURCE OF INFLUENCE TO IMPACT THE FOUR CORNERS.

>>LORENE: AND NOT ONLY THAT BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF CONNECTION WITH MESOAMERICA THAT THEY ACTUALLY HAD CACAO, THEY HAD MACAWS, THEY HAD COPPER BELLS AND THERE WAS NO METAL AT THAT TIME IN THIS CULTURE.

>>ANNA: I KNOW AND THOSE OBJECTS GIVE US A SENSE OF THE ACTIVITY WAS THERE, THAT IT WAS CEREMONIAL, VIBRANT, AND OF COURSE, THE KIVAS ARE ALSO TELLING US THIS IS A PLACE, THIS INTENSE CEREMONY.

IN THIS BUILDING.

36 KIVAS, THERE ARE ACTUALLY THREE OR FOUR GREAT KIVAS THAT YOU ASKED ABOUT AND THEY ARE MASSIVE.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH ANNA SOFAER AND I HAVE BEEN FASCINATED BY CHACO FOR A LONG TIME.

WHY IS IT SO FASCINATING?

>>ANNA: THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

GOSH, FOR ME PERSONALLY.

>>LORENE: YES, AND FOR OUR VIEWERS.

>>ANNA: YES, MAYBE THE BEST ANSWER IS THAT YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND IT, THAT IT TAKES YOU INTO ANOTHER REALM, THAT'S A LITTLE WOOWOO.

IT REALLY IS, FOR ME, A PLACE THAT CONSTANTLY UNFOLDS A NEW LEVEL OF ASTONISHMENT, SURPRISES.

I MEAN, WE THINK WE UNDERSTAND ANCIENT PEOPLE TO SOME EXTENT, BUT IT'S A REAL CHALLENGE BECAUSE WITH CHACO YOU HAVE PEOPLE WITHOUT WRITING A MAP, BUT THE BRILLIANCE OF WHAT THEY'VE DONE WITH ASTRONOMY, WITH LANDSCAPE PLANNING, WITH ENGINEERING AND ARCHITECTURE, AND THEN THIS ORGANIZATION, THE PROSTHETIC EXPANSE, CHALLENGES US IN OUR THOUGHT THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE WRITING AND MATH.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ANNA: YOU HAVE WHAT WE CONSIDER THE ORIGIN WITH THE GREEKS OF FORMAL ENGINEERING SKILLS, FORMAL MATH AND SO FORTH.

BUT NO, WHAT WAS THEIR ONTOLOGY, WHAT WAS THEIR WAY OF THINKING THAT THEY COULD, FOR INSTANCE, THIS BUILDING THAT WE SHOW IN THE FILM, WE ARE FINDING IT HAS THAT ENORMOUS SPIRAL IN THE CONSTRUCTION.

NOW YOU HAVE TO THINK THEY NEVER SAW THAT, THEY WEREN'T FLYING ABOUT, THEY DIDN'T HAVE DRAFTING TOOLS, THEY DIDN'T HAVE ART TECHNOLOGIES.

BUT THEY WERE ENVISIONING IT IN THEIR MINDS AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT MAKES ME STILL EXCITED.

AND I DO THINK PEOPLE HAVE MANY WAYS OF BEING EXCITED COMING IN TO CHACO AND A LITTLE OVERWHELMED.

>>LORENE: YOUR NEW BOOK AND THIS FILM IS CALLED WRITTEN ON THE LANDSCAPE MYSTERIES BEYOND CHACO CANYON .

I ALSO WANT TO MENTION THIS WONDERFUL BOOK OF YOURS, CHACO ASTRONOMY , BECAUSE IT'S JUST AND WHAT A NICE PICTURE OF THE SUN DAGGER.

BUT WHAT NEW DISCOVERIES, BECAUSE YOU FIRST FOUND THE SUN DAGGER 40 YEARS AGO AND NOW WHAT WOULD YOUR NEW BOOK WRITTEN ON THE LANDSCAPE, MYSTERIES BEYOND CHACO CANYON ARE EXPANDING IT TO NOT JUST ONE, NOT JUST PUEBLO BONITO, BUT PUEBLO BONITO AS A CENTER OF A VAST EMPIRE.

>>ANNA: WELL, IN OUR NEW FILM, I THINK WHAT'S QUITE DIFFERENT THAN WE HAVE IN THE OTHER FILMS, THE PUEBLO PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT POWER.

YOU KNOW, AS I MENTIONED, THE DATA DOES SHOW YOU THAT THE PLACE HAD TO HAVE SOME VERY STRONG LEADERSHIP, BUT THEN THERE'S STORIES, WAS IT TOO MUCH TOP-HEAVY LEADERSHIP, DOMINANCE OF OTHER PEOPLE AND WHERE THEY EVEN TRIED TO CONTROL THE NATURAL FORCES.

IF YOU AS PHILLIP TUWALETSTIWA SAYS IN OUR FILM, THE HOPI GUY I HAVE WORKED WITH FOR YEARS ON THE ASTRONOMY, IF YOU SEE THE SUN AND THE MOON AS ANIMATED, AS DEITIES AND THEN YOU SEEM TO CONTROL THOSE, YOU HAVE POWER AND THAT CAN BECOME POWER OVER OTHER PEOPLE.

BUT I LOVE WHAT COMES OUT FROM THE PETUUCHE GILBERT FROM ACOMA, HE SAYS, OUR ANCESTORS SAID NO, NO MORE, THAT THERE WAS BATTLES AND CONFLICT BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL.

CHACO HAD SOME EVIL AND THE EVIL WAS RELATED TO THIS TOP-LEVEL CONTROL, DOMINANCE.

AND OUR ANCESTORS, HE SAYS, SAID NO MORE AND WE LOVE THAT.

>>LORENE: BUT ALSO, WHAT DID THEY DO THEN TO CHACO, BECAUSE, TELL US ABOUT THAT.

>>ANNA: WELL, I THINK IF YOU'RE MENTIONING WHAT I THINK WHICH IS THAT THE ROOMS ARE CLOSED.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>ANNA: SEALED, WHICH IS FASCINATING.

AND WE NEVER THINK VERY MUCH ABOUT THAT, BUT IF YOU PUT THAT TOGETHER WITH WHAT PETUUCHE IS SAYING WE LEFT THERE AND THEN HE ALSO SAYS WE RETURN THERE BECAUSE IT'S A SACRED SITE TO US.

AND THIS IS PARADOXICAL, IF IT'S SO EVIL, SO SACRED, BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU THINK MORE ABOUT IT, THEY SEALED IT AND WHAT THEY SEALED WAS THEIR ANCESTOR'S KNOWLEDGE, THAT WE'RE NOW FINDING, PROFOUND SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE WHICH IS AVAILABLE TO US.

AND THAT'S APPRECIATED BY THE PUEBLO PEOPLE THAT I KNOW, THAT THAT'S COMING OUT BY OUR GOING BACK.

SO IN A FUNNY WAY, THE CLOSURES, THE CEILINGS ARE ARCHIVING FOR US TODAY TO KNOW THIS CULTURE THAT'S SO ASTONISHING.

>>LORENE: YES, YES.

I'M CONCERNED THAT THIS SITE BE PRESERVED.

AND THERE IS FRACKING IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND I KNOW THAT I THINK SOMEONE PASSED A LAW SAYING YOU CAN'T COME WITHIN 15 MILES.

AND THEY SAID 15 MILES, THIS IS A HUGE SITE, ALL THIS IS SACRED, SO BACK OFF.

AND SO THEN PEOPLE WHO WANT TO AND ALL OVER THE WORLD, SO MANY SACRED PETROGLYPHS AND STUFF HAVE BEEN GRAFFITIED AND DEFACED.

AND THIS IS A VOICE OF OUR ANCESTORS, OF PREHISTORY, THIS MUST BE KEPT SAFE AND PRECIOUS.

>>ANNA: ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.

YES AND IT'S A GOOD THING THE ROAD IS NOT PAVED.

>>LORENE: EXACTLY, YES.

>>ANNA: WE'VE SEEN WHAT HAPPENED TO MESA VERDE WHEN THEY PAVED THE ROADS.

NOW THEY HAVE TO CLOSE THE SITES.

AND WE'VE FOUGHT HARD TO KEEP THAT JUST TO BE A DIRT ROAD.

>>LORENE: I HOPE IT'S A VERY BOUNCY RUTTED DIRT ROAD THAT PROTECTS IT.

>>ANNA: EXACTLY.

>>LORENE: ONE OF THE DEVELOPMENTS THAT COME UP IS THE USE OF LIDAR, WHICH IS WHAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT STANDS FOR, LIGHT IMAGING DETECT LASER SCANNING.

>>ANNA: AERIAL LASER SCANNING.

>>LORENE: EXACTLY.

WE FOUND SO MUCH MORE THROUGH LIDAR, IT'S LIKE X-RAY VISION.

>>ANNA: IT'S AMAZING, THINGS WE ABSOLUTELY DIDN'T KNOW AND FAR AWAY FROM THE CENTER I'VE BEEN SEEING WAS MY FRIEND RICH, WHO DOES THAT WORK.

YOU KNOW HE'S EXTRAORDINARY, RICH FRIEDMAN IN FARMINGTON, TEACHING AT SANTA JUAN COMMUNITY COLLEGE, HE IS THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT CHACO.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS.

>>ANNA: HE'S IN OUR FILM, HE'S KIND OF MY COHORT AS WE GO AROUND, HE'S TEACHING ME.

>>LORENE: AND I KNOW THAT IN YOUR FIRST YOU WORKED WITH ROB WEINER BEFORE FROM BOULDER.

>>ANNA: YEAH, WELL ROB'S IN THIS FILM.

>>LORENE: GOOD, GOOD, GOOD.

>>ANNA: HE'S TERRIFIC.

BUT RICH IS THE ONE WHO COMBINES TECHNOLOGY WITH THE KNOWLEDGE ON THE GROUND.

AND EVERY TIME WE ZOOM, HE'LL SAY, COME LOOK AT THIS AND WE'RE UP AND NEAR MESA VERDE AND THESE MASSIVE ROADS, HE SHOWED ME HALF MILE WILD LOOP, PERFECT CIRCLE.

WE WENT AND ACTUALLY STARTED THE NEW FILM AT A SITE CALLED HELMS GROUP WHERE IT WAS SUCH A PERFECT CIRCLE.

CAN YOU IMAGINE A 30-FOOT-WIDE ROAD, CREATED, IT'S LIKE BONITO AND THE SPIRAL.

THEY'RE NEVER SEEING IT FROM ABOVE.

HOW DID THEY DO IT?

SO WE STAND THERE AND ACT KIND OF DUMB, HOW DID THEY DO IT?

>>LORENE: BUT IT'S THE SAME THING WITH THE NAZCA LINES IN PERU.

>>ANNA: EXACTLY.

>>LORENE: YOU KNOW, OR EVEN THERE'S SOME HUMAN FIGURES IN ENGLAND MADE OUT OF CHALK THAT YOU CAN'T SEE IT FROM GROUND LEVEL, YOU KNOW.

>>ANNA: YOU HAVE TO FLY OVER OR USE LIDAR.

>>LORENE: SO WHAT HAVE WE FOUND OUT NOW THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE THROUGH LIDAR AND THEN THROUGH USING SOME OF THE HOPI PEOPLE AND THE OTHER INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN THE AREA WHEN THEY RECOUNT THEIR FOLK HISTORY, THEIR CREATION MYTHS AND ALL THAT?

IS THIS AN EVER EXPANDING CIRCLE, IT SEEMS LIKE WE'RE KNOWING SO MUCH MORE.

>>ANNA: I FEEL THAT.

>>LORENE: THAT'S WHY I'M SO HAPPY TO HAVE YOU ON TO TELL US THE LATEST ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON WITH CHACO.

>>ANNA: WELL, I THINK WE'RE SEEING MUCH MORE ENGAGEMENT FROM PUEBLO PEOPLE OVER MY WORK THERE FOR FOUR DECADES CERTAINLY CHANGED.

WHEN I FIRST WORKED THERE, THE PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED, ALFONSO ORTIZ, HAROLD LITTLEBIRD, THEY DIDN'T EVEN GO INTO CHACO.

THEY QUICKLY DID AFTER THE FILM CAME OUT, I NOTICED AND THEN MORE AND MORE, BUT NOW THEY REALLY WANT TO HOLD IT, TAKE CARE OF IT, ACROSS THE DIFFERENT TRIBES AND THAT'S VERY EXCITING.

AND THERE'S SOME REPORTS OF DNA ANALYSIS, WHICH IS KIND OF A NO-NO, BUT IS BEING DONE AND IT'S SHOWING REMARKABLE RELATIONSHIP BACK TO CHACO, SO THAT'S EXCITING.

I THINK THAT'S VERY NEW AND OF COURSE, AS YOU MENTIONED, THE LIDAR IS SHOWING US THINGS THAT WE NEVER WOULD HAVE SEEN.

THE EXTENT OF THESE ROADS FAR OUT AND THINK OF HOW THE DISTANCE FROM PAGOSA SPRINGS TOWAPACHI, YOU ANALYZE THE ARCHITECTURE, IT'S THE SAME PEOPLE SAME CERAMICS, THE SAME MASONRY, THE SAME ICONIC ARCHITECTURE.

>>LORENE: DON'T YOU HAVE A BEAUTIFUL PICTURE FROM PAGOSA SPRINGS?

>>ANNA: THIS IS FOR INSTANCE, CHIMNEY ROCK AND THAT HAPPENS ONLY ONCE EVERY LIKE NINETEEN YEARS.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOSH.

>>ANNA: BECAUSE THEY HAD A TREMENDOUS UNDERSTANDING OF THE LUNAR CYCLE, SO A LOT OF MODERN PEOPLE THAT CAN'T GET A FIX ON JUST GO BACK AND FORTH.

>>LORENE: YES, YES.

>>ANNA: BUT THIS IS THE EXTREME IT TAKES AND THEN THREE DATINGS THAT THEY FOUND, THREE TIMES THAT THE BUILDING WAS BUILT ACCORDING TOTREE RINGS DATES ARE WHEN THIS OCCURRED.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS.

>>ANNA: AND THAT KIND OF NAILED THAT.

AND THAT'S HAPPENING ON THE SUN DAGGER SITE, IF WE GO BACK TO THAT.

BEFORE THIS WAS FOUND, WE FOUND THAT THIS EDGE HERE CASTS A SHADOW RIGHT THROUGH THE CENTER AT ONE END OF THAT CYCLE AND ON THE LEFT SIDE AT THE OTHER END AND THERE ARE 19 TURNS ON THE SPIRAL COUNTING FROM RIGHT TO LEFT.

SO HERE THEY HAVE THE SUN AND THE MOON AND HERE THEY REALLY DID IT ON A MASSIVE LEVEL, THAT'S WHAT I LOVE TOO.

THIS IS VERY INTIMATE, TWO OR THREE PEOPLE WOULD SEE THIS.

>>LORENE: AND THIS IS 19 YEARS.

>>ANNA: AND MAYBE SEVERAL PEOPLE WOULD SEE THIS.

THE LIFE OF THE CYCLE.

>>LORENE: WELL I'M JUST SO ASTONISHED BY IT AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SUCH A PRIVILEGE TO HAVE YOU, BECAUSE 40 YEARS AGO, YOU FIRST FOUND IT, AND NOW IT'S EXPONENTIALLY THE INFORMATION IS GROWING, BUT ALSO THE CURIOSITY AND THE FASCINATION IS GROWING.

WHO WERE THESE PEOPLE?

I THINK IN THE TRAILER THERE WAS A FACE AND IT LOOKED LIKE, IT DIDN'T LOOK RECOGNIZABLE AS A HUMAN FACE, BUT IT WAS PORTRAYED IN A WAY THAT WAS REALLY UNIQUE.

>>ANNA: YEAH, A VERY SPECIAL EFFIGY FORM.

THAT'S A WOMAN'S FACE, IT'S A WOMAN IN THE LITTLE CERAMIC PIECE, YES, AND IT LOOKS PUEBLOAN TO ME.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ANNA: LOOKS LIKE PUEBLO PEOPLE.

I AM VERY EXCITED NOW, BECAUSE THEY'RE JOINING SO MUCH IN OUR FESTIVITIES AROUND THE SHOWING OF THE FILM THAT'S GOING TO BE AT THE CCA, I HOPE THEY'LL COME.

>>LORENE: WHAT IS THAT DATE FOR THE CCA OR IF NOT, WE CAN PUT A SCREEN, WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

I JUST WANT TO ALSO MENTION THAT ON THE NEW MEXICO PBS NETWORK ON JUNE 20TH AND 21ST THEY'LL BE SHOWING THE MOVIE, WRITTEN ON THE LANDSCAPE .

SO I WANT PEOPLE TO REMEMBER THAT AND CHECK THEIR LOCAL LISTINGS.

I JUST WANT TO THANK YOU, CAN YOU GIVE US JUST A ONE MINUTE... >>ANNA: ABOUT CCA?

>>LORENE: WELL ABOUT CCA AND ABOUT WHAT THIS WORK HAS DONE FOR YOU IN A MINUTE, THAT'S NOT VERY NICE OF ME.

>>ANNA: THIS WORK HAS BEEN HARD, VERY HARD AT TIMES, CHALLENGING I SHOULD SAY, BUT AT OTHER TIMES ALMOST THRILLING OR DEEPLY FULFILLING BECAUSE I GET TO BE IN TOUCH WITH SOMETHING SO BEYOND OUR NORMAL WORLD, BUT STILL, IT HAS ITS OWN POWERFUL TRUTH.

SO MEANINGFUL FOR ME, I COULDN'T STOP.

>>LORENE: AND FOR ME IT'S BEEN LIKE A REBIRTH OF WONDER, YOU KNOW, TO REALLY TO LOOK AT THIS AND I JUST WANT TO SHOW THIS BOOK OF YOURS, I'M SORRY WE DON'T HAVE THE OTHER ONE.

THIS IS CHACO ASTRONOMY , AN AMAZING BOOK AND I HOPE THAT OUR AUDIENCE HAS CAPTURED OUR INTRIGUE AND OUR LOVE AND OUR ABILITY TO SEE REFLECTED IN THIS AMAZING CREATION OF OUR EARLY ANCESTORS AND WHAT IS IT, WHAT DOES IT GIVE TO US, BECAUSE TO ME, IT'S A REAL GIFT.

AND HAVING YOU HERE IS A GOOD GIFT.

>>LORENE: OUR GUEST TODAY IS ANNA SOFAER AND IF YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT CHACO SHE'S THE PERSON.

ALSO, THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED THE SOLSTICE PROJECT THAT PEOPLE CAN LOOK INTO TO FIND OUT MORE.

SO THANK YOU FOR COMING.

AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM