>>ANNOUNCER: REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NATIONAL EDUCATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF NEW MEXICO, AN ORGANIZATION OF PROFESSIONALS WHO BELIEVE THAT INVESTING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION IS AN INVESTMENT IN OUR STATE'S ECONOMIC FUTURE, FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO A DELIGHTFUL EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE HAVE ANNE HILLERMAN WITH US TODAY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>ANNE: OH THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME, LORENE, I AM HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>>LORENE: WELL I AM SO HAPPY WE ARE HERE OSTENSIBLY TO TALK ABOUT YOUR AMAZING NEW BOOK CALLED STARGAZER AND I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE ABOUT SOME OF THE AWARDS YOU'VE WON AND TALK ABOUT SOME OF YOUR EARLIER BOOKS.

BUT YOU WERE AN ACCOMPLISHED JOURNALIST ON YOUR OWN RIGHT BUT YOU DID HAPPEN TO HAVE A VERY IMPORTANT HEREDITARY CONNECTION, YOUR DAD WAS A FAMOUS AND BELOVED NEW MEXICO WRITER, TONY HILLERMAN.

SO, TELL US HOW YOU LAUNCHED THE PLAN TO SAVE LEAPHORN AND CHEE FROM OBSCURITY BECAUSE EVERYBODY KEPT SAYING, "DOESN'T HE HAVE AN OLD MANUSCRIPT IN THE DESK, ISN'T THERE SOMETHING, WE CAN'T BEAR TO LOSE THESE CHARACTERS."

>>ANNE: WELL YOU KNOW IT WAS EXACTLY COMMENTS LIKE THAT THAT REALLY HELPED ME GATHER UP MY COURAGE AND DECIDE THAT I COULD MAKE THE TRANSITION FROM JOURNALISM TO WRITING MYSTERIES.

AND THE OTHER THING THAT HELPED I HAD BEEN DOING OFFERING WRITING WORKSHOPS IN SANTA FE.

I WASN'T TEACHING THEM BUT I WAS INVITING SOME OF NEW MEXICO'S BEST WRITERS LIKE MICHAEL MCGARRITY, LIKE DOUG PRESTON, ETC., ETC., TO COME AND BE THE TEACHERS.

AND AT THE TIME, IT REALLY HAD NOT OCCURRED TO ME THAT I WOULD BE WRITING FICTION, BUT HEARING THESE WONDERFUL PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW THEY CREATED CHARACTERS, HOW THEY BUILT SUSPENSE, THE ROLE OF SETTINGS IN THEIR BOOKS ALL OF THAT KIND OF, I GUESS SOMEHOW THROUGH OSMOSIS, PERMEATED MY BEING.

SO WHEN I DECIDED THAT MAYBE I COULD TRY WRITING A NOVEL, THOSE THINGS KIND OF CAME BACK TO ME.

YOU KNOW IN RETROSPECT IF I THOUGHT I WOULD HAVE THIS CAREER, I PROBSABLY WOULD HAVE STUDIED CREATIVE WRITING IN COLLEGE AND YOU KNOW TAKEN SOME COURSES READING THE GREAT MASTERS BUT IT WAS KIND OF BY MY OWN BOOTSTRAPS AND THROUGH DAD'S WONDERFUL INFLUENCE.

>>LORENE: AND BY OSMOSIS BECAUSE OF GROWING UP WITH HIM.

I MEAN YOU FEAST UPON STORIES, WE ALL DO, WE ALL NEED STORIES AND SO YOU GREW UP WHERE STORIES WERE RESPECTED, AND TRANSMITTED AND SHARED AND IT IS SO BONDING, IT IS SO WONDERFUL.

SO YOUR FIRST BOOK, SPIDERWOMAN'S DAUGHTER , YOU GOT THE SPUR BEST FIRST NOVEL AWARD FOR THIS?

>>ANNE: I DID.

>>LORENE: THIS IS WHERE YOU CHOSE TO ELEVATE A MINOR CHARACTER IN YOUR FATHER'S WORKS, A WOMAN A BRILLIANT, WONDERFUL WOMAN.

I JUST WANT TO SAY, SO YOU HAVE TAKEN BERNADETTE MANUELITO OR BERNIE AND YOU HAVE MADE HER, SHE IS A COP, SHE IS A WIFE, SHE A MOTHER, A SISTER, SHE HAS ALL THIS GOING ON AND PEOPLE SAY, "OH, MY GOD, THE MODERN WOMAN, HOW DOES BERNIE POSSIBLY DO IT?"

AND ONE OF THE THINGS IS BECAUSE HER MOTHER WAS A WEAVER, I MEAN SHE REALLY HAS THE KNOWLEDGE TO WEAVE ALL THESE DISPERATE ELEMENTS INTO A UNIFIED FABRIC.

AND SO DO YOU, THIS IS WHAT I LOVE.

YOU ALSO ARE A SPIDERWOMAN'S DAUGHTER IN THAT YOU WEAVE ALL THESE ELEMENTS, SUBPLOTS AND VILLAINS AND COINCIDENCES AND YOU WEAVE IT TOGETHER INTO THESE WONDERFUL BOOKS.

SO TELL ME A LITTLE ABOUT BERNIE.

>>ANNE: OH, WELL BERNIE WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITE, FAVORITE CHARACTERS.

WHEN MY DAD, I GUESS IT WAS ABOUT SEVEN BOOKS INTO THE SERIES WHEN HE CREATED BERNIE AND BERNIE WAS JUST KIND OF A SWEET, ROOKIE WHO WAS LOVE STRUCK BY THE HANDSOME SERGEANT WHO RAN THE DEPARTMENT.

WHEN WE FIRST MEET HER, HER UNIT IS STUCK IN THE MUD AND SHE HAS TO CALL JIM CHEE TO COME AND RESCUE HER, THIS WAS IN MY DAD'S STORIES.

AND THEN TIME GOES BY, SHE LEAVES THE NAVAJO POLICE DEPARTMENT BECAUSE SHE JUST CAN'T WORK WITH THIS MAN THAT SHE IS SO IN LOVE WITH.

SO SHE GOES DOWN TO THE BORDER PATROL AND THERE SHE DOES PRETTY WELL, SHE FINDS SOME GUYS WHO ARE SMUGGLING DRUGS.

SHE BASICALLY HAS SOLVED THE CASE EXCEPT SHE MAKES A MISTAKE AND GETS CAPTURED BY THE BAD GUYS.

AND AMAZINGLY, JIM CHEE SHOWS UP AND RESCUES HER AND THEN, AGAIN, IN SKELETON MAN , SHE IS AT THE GRAND CANYON WITH JIM CHEE AND COWBOY DASHEE AND THEY SAY, "OH, YOU STAY HERE, BERNIE, AND MAKE SURE NO BAD GUYS COME DOWN THE TRAIL."

BUT SHE DOESN'T, SHE FINDS THIS WOMAN WHO IS IN JEOPARDY, SHE FINDS SOME STOLEN DIAMONDS, SHE FINDS THE BAD GUYS.

BASICALLY, SHE HAS WRAPPED UP THE CASE, BUT THEN BECAUSE MY DAD LOVED JIM CHEE AND JOE LEAPHORN THERE IS A FLASH FLOOD AT THE BOTTOM OF THE GRAND CANYON, THERE IS CHAOS EVERYWHERE.

JIM CHEE SHOWS UP, RESCUES BERNIE, PUTS ALL THE LOOSE ENDS TOGETHER AND SO WHEN I READ THAT BOOK, THE SKELETON MAN , I SAID TO MY DAD, "YOU KNOW I REALLY LOVE THIS BERNADETTE MANUELITO CHARACTER AND I THINK YOUR READERS WOULD LIKE HER TOO AND I THINK IT MIGHT BE GOOD FOR THE SERIES TO HAVE A WOMAN WHO HAD SOME POWER, WHO HAD SOME STRENGTH, WHO HAD SOME PROFESSIONAL CREDENTIALS AND WHY DON'T YOU MAKE HER A MAIN CHARACTER LIKE THE GUYS?"

AND I COULD REMEMBER DAD'S LOOK, HE GIVES ME THAT LITTLE SMILE, YOU KNOW THAT DADS SAY FOR THEIR DAUGHTERS, HE SAYS, "OH, HONEY, WHAT AN INTERESTING IDEA," BUT LUCKILY HE DIDN'T DO IT.

SO AFTER HE DIED AND I WAS THINKING HOW CAN I BASICALLY MAKE THIS SERIES MY OWN BUT STILL BE TRUE TO THE GROUNDWORK THAT HE DID.

>>LORENE: YES, YES.

>>ANNE: I THOUGHT OF BERNIE AND I THOUGHT EVEN IF NO ONE READS THIS BOOK EXCEPT ME AND MY MOM, I HAVE TO WRITE A BOOK WHERE BERNIE IS NOT RESCUED, WHERE BERNIE SAVES THE DAY, WHERE BERNIE ACTS LIKE THE COMPETENT, SMART POLICEWOMAN THAT SHE IS.

SO THAT WAS SORT OF THE GENESIS OF SPIDERWOMAN'S DAUGHTER.

>>LORENE: SO AMONG THE AWARDS YOU HAVE WON, BECAUSE YOU DID GET THE SPUR FIRST NOVEL ON THIS ONE, BUT ONE OF MY FAVORITE MOST MOVING AWARDS TO ME WAS THE FRANK WATERS AWARD FROM THE COLORADO SPRINGS LIBRARY ASSOCIATION.

>>ANNE: EXACTLY.

>>LORENE: FRANK WATERS WROTE THE MAN WHO KILLED THE DEER, THE BOOK OF HOPI , I MEAN HE'S A MYSTICAL, MAGICAL FIGURE AND IF I WERE TO GET ANY AWARD IF I WERE A WRITER, MY HEART WOULD SWELL TO BE GIVEN THE FRANK WATERS AWARD.

SO CONGRATULATIONS.

>>ANNE: WELL THANK YOU AND THAT WAS EXACTLY HOW I FELT.

BECAUSE IT WAS AN AWARD REALLY GIVEN BY PEERS, GIVEN BY PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND THE SOUTHWEST AND ALL OF THE BEAUTY AND THE MYSTERY AND THE WONDERFUL CHARACTERS, ALL OF THE RESOURCES WE HAVE TO WORK WITH, SO.

OF ALL OF MY AWARDS THAT REALLY IS MY FAVORITE, DON'T TELL THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE GIVEN ME AWARDS.

>>LORENE: NO, NO, NO, WE LOVE AWARDS, MORE AWARDS ARE COMING YOUR WAY.

SO AT THE BEGINNING WHEN YOU WERE A JOURNALIST, YOU DID A LOT OF SANTA FE STORIES AND YOU WORKED FOR THE JOURNAL AND THE NEW MEXICAN AND YOU WERE VERY PROLIFIC.

ONE OF THE FIRST BOOKS THAT YOU DID WITH YOUR LATE HUSBAND, DON STREL, THIS BEAUTIFUL BOOK, TONY HILLERMAN'S LANDSCAPE , AND HE PHOTOGRAPHS AND YOU TAKE EXCERPTS FROM YOUR DAD'S BOOKS.

SO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO KNOW ABOUT HILLERMAN COUNTRY AND GUESS WHAT, IT COMES WITH A MAP SO YOU DON'T GET LOST ON THOSE BACK ROADS.

SO THIS WAS A REALLY MEANINGFUL CONTRIBUTION, AGAIN ASSURING, CEMENTING YOUR DAD'S LEGACY AND THESE ARE REAL PLACES.

YOU CAN GO THERE AND SEE WHY WE ALL LOVE NEW MEXICO SO MUCH.

>>ANNE: AND YOU KNOW IT WAS INTERESTING WHEN I HAD THE IDEA FOR THAT BOOK, I WASN'T THINKING THAT I WOULD BE WRITING FICTION.

BUT IT WAS SUCH A WONDERFUL BRIDGE SEEING THE PLACES THAT DAD WROTE ABOUT, BEING BASICALLY FOLLOWING HIS STEPS THROUGH THAT MAGICAL LANDSCAPE AND MEETING SO MANY PEOPLE, NAVAJO PEOPLE, WHO LOVED MY DAD'S WORK.

IT REALLY GAVE ME, KIND OF GAVE ME THE COURAGE AND THE INSPIRATION TO MAKE THE SWITCH TO FICTION.

>>LORENE: YES.

SO A SERIES OF BOOKS IS WONDERFUL, WHAT YOUR PUBLISHER HAS DONE IN UNITING THE COVERS OF THESE BOOKS, SO I HAVE SHOWN THEM SPIDERWOMAN'S DAUGHTER AND STARGAZER .

BUT HERE IS ANOTHER ONE AND WE'LL JUST GO THROUGH THEM QUICKLY.

THERE ARE MORE OF THEM THAN I COULD CARRY, SIX OF THEM, THAT WAS ROCK WITH WINGS , THIS IS THE SONG OF THE LIONS , AGAIN THEMATICALLY THEY ARE SO BEAUTIFULLY TIED TOGETHER.

OOHH AND THIS ONE, CAVE OF BONES .

SO I DO LOVE THEM AND I KIND OF GOBBLE THEM UP WHEN THE NEW ONE COMES OUT.

NOW, YOU ARE ONE OF THE WRITERS WHO MAKES PLACE VERY MUCH A CHARACTER AND IN THIS LATEST BECAUSE BERNIE HAS TO TRAVEL A LOT BECAUSE OF THE PLOT, SO WE HAVE A PROBLEM TALKING ABOUT MYSTERIES BECAUSE WE CAN TALK THE LANDSCAPE, THE SKY SCAPE, HOW BEAUTIFUL NEW MEXICO IS BUT WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING THAT TAKES AWAY THE PLEASURE OF SOLVING THE MYSTERY, SO I AM JUST TRYING TO BE VERY, VERY MINDFUL OF THAT.

SO TELL ME ABOUT STARGAZER, AGAIN THIS IS MY FAVORITE COVER, SO I AM GOING TO HOLD IT UP AGAIN, THIS IS A VERY NAVAJO CONSTELLATION FOR BIG SNAKE.

>>ANNE: EXACTLY, EXACTLY.

>>LORENE: AND WE HAVE THE VERY LARGE ARRAY THERE.

>>ANNE: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: SO WHAT WAS THE INSPIRATION, WHY DID YOU CHOOSE NAVAJO ASTRONOMY OR COSMOLOGY AS AN ELEMENT, A SUBTEXT.

>>ANNE: WELL IT WAS INTERESTING THE WAY THIS BOOK DEVELOPED.

AND NOW I WOULD GUESS THERE WERE MAYBE THREE MAIN FACTORS THAT LED TO IT.

ONE WAS THE PREVIOUS BOOK THAT I HAD DONE, THE TALE TELLER , AND A LOT OF THAT BOOK CONCERNS WHAT'S KNOWN AS THE LONG WALK, THE US GOVERNMENT'S DESIRE TO TURN THE NAVAJO PEOPLE INTO FARMERS.

AS I WAS DOING THE RESEARCH FOR THAT, I REALIZED THAT THERE A FEW GROUPS OF NAVAJOS WHO DID NOT RETURN TO THE MAIN RESERVATION.

AND ONE OF THOSE GROUPS WERE THE ALAMO NAVAJOS AND THEY SETTLED NEAR SOCORRO, KIND OF NEAR LAGUNA PUEBLO, LAND THAT WAS MAYBE A LITTLE MORE ACCOMMODATING THAN SOME OF THE LAND ON THE BIG RESERVATION.

>>LORENE: WATER FOR EXAMPLE.

>>ANNE: WATER, YEAH, YEAH.

SO I THOUGHT WELL THIS IS INTERESTING, AND IT WOULD BE ONE OF THE GOALS I HAD WHEN I TOOK OVER THE SERIES WAS TO TRY TO INTRODUCE READERS TO DIFFERENT PLACES ON THE NAVAJO NATION THAT MY DAD HADN'T TALKED ABOUT.

AND HE HAD NEVER WRITTEN ABOUT ALAMO SO I THOUGHT WELL THIS WOULD BE KIND OF INTERESTING TO SET A STORY HERE.

SO THEN I HAD AN INVITATION TO DO A TALK AT THE MAGDALENA PUBLIC LIBRARY WHICH IS A CHARMING, CHARMING LITTLE LIBRARY.

AND AS I WAS DRIVING THERE, I REALIZED THERE WAS THE TURN OFF FOR THE ALAMO NAVAJO NATION AND THEN THERE ALSO WAS THE JUNCTION FOR THE VERY LARGE ARRAY, THIS WONDERFUL ASSORTMENT, ARRAY OF RADIO TELESCOPES - 27 OF THEM MOUNTED ON RAILROAD TRACKS WHICH LISTEN TO RADIO WAYS COMING FROM DEEP SPACE.

SO I THOUGHT WELL ISN'T THIS INTERESTING, HERE I HAVE THE NAVAJO ELEMENT AND THEN I HAVE ALL OF THIS SCIENCE THAT IS ALMOST LIKE SCIENCE FICTION, THAT HAS TO DO WITH NIGHT SKY.

SO THOSE TWO THINGS WERE KIND OF ROLLING AROUND IN MY BRAIN TOGETHER AND I THINK THE THIRD ELEMENT THAT HAD TO DO WITH STARGAZER HAD TO DO WITH MY LATE HUSBAND.

HE WAS SUFFERING FROM DEMENTIA AND HE WAS GOOD SPIRITED MOST OF THE TIME, BUT ONCE IN A WHILE HE WOULD REALIZE WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH HIM AND HE WOULD TAP HIS HEAD AND HE WOULD SAY, "WE GOT TO FIX THIS."

AND OF COURSE, THERE WAS NO FIXING IT, BUT THERE WAS NO SENSE EITHER IN ME TELLING HIM THAT.

I MEAN WHEN HE HAD BEEN MORE LUCID, HE'D UNDERSTOOD THAT IT WAS A DIAGNOSIS FOR WHICH IT WAS JUST A STEADY DECLINE.

SO ANYWAY WHEN HE SAID, "WE HAVE TO FIX IT," I'D SAY, "YEAH, YOU'RE RIGHT AND I AM GOING TO DO SOME RESEARCH AND I'LL SEE WHAT I CAN DO AND JUST RELAX AND ENJOY YOUR DAY AND HAVE A COKE" OR WHATEVER I WOULD SAY TO HIM, JUST TRY TO DEFLECT THE CONVERSATION, BUT THAT MADE ME THINK OF THE LIES THAT WE TELL FOR LOVE.

SO, THAT WAS KIND OF ONE OF THE THEMES IN STARGAZER , WHEN PEOPLE LIE, NOT OUT OF MALICIOUSNESS, BUT TO PROTECT SOMEONE ELSE.

AND SO I DON'T WANT TO GIVE AWAY TOO MUCH ABOUT THE PLOT, BUT THAT THEME REALLY CAME THROUGH BOTH IN THE MAIN PLOT AND ALSO IN THE SUBPLOT THAT HAS TO DO WITH JOE LEAPHORN AND HIS LONG TIME HOUSEMATE AND HOW JOE HAS NOT BEEN, HE HASN'T REALLY LIED TO HER BUT HE HASN'T REALLY TOLD HER THE WHOLE TRUTH.

AND NOW THERE IS A SITUATION WHERE HIS SHYING AWAY FROM THE TRUTH IS CAUSING A LITTLE CONFLICT BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM.

SO ALL OF THOSE, IT IS INTERESTING HOW ALL OF THOSE THINGS KIND OF MESHED TOGETHER TO COME UP WITH A BOOK ABOUT A DEAD MAN FOUND IN A CAR AND BERNIE WONDERING IS IT MURDER OR IS IT SUICIDE.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

>>ANNE: YEAH.

>>LORENE: BUT YOU DID, IN THE MOST ARTFUL WAY, TURN SOME OF THE FORMULAIC, WHO DONE IT ELEMENTS OF A MYSTERY ON ITS HEAD, AND THAT'S WHERE ONE OF THE DELIGHTFUL WAY THAT THIS UNFOLDS.

AND ALSO I THINK YOU HAD A VILLAIN TRANSFORMATION THAT WAS SET UP TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE SOMEONE AND THEN THE TIDE CAME IN, THE TIDE CAME OUT AND THINGS CHANGED.

WELL WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH ANNE HILLERMAN ABOUT HER WONDERFUL NEW BOOK, STARGAZER , AND THE WAY THAT YOU TAKE THE MYSTERIES OF THE NIGHT SKY BECAUSE THE LANDSCAPE IS SO WELL DESCRIBED, AND THE NATIVE AMERICAN NAVAJO ASTRONOMY AND COSMOLOGY BECAUSE THEY SEE THE CONSTELLATIONS IN TERMS OF THEIR ORIGINESS AND YOU DO IT SO WELL.

I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE VERY, THE SECRET PROTECTS ITSELF, THEY DON'T WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW SOME OF THESE THINGS AND YOU ARE SO RESPECTFUL ABOUT IT.

BUT TO JUXTAPOSE IT WITH THE CUTTING EDGE SCIENCE THERE WASN'T A LOT OF BLACK HOLE RESEARCH DONE AT THE VERY LARGE ARRAY.

>>ANNE: YEAH, EXACTLY.

>>LORENE: AND HERE THE NAVAJO WITH THE NIGHT SKY, THE DARK ENERGY AND THE LIGHT ENERGY AND TO SEE IT IT REMINDED ME A LITTLE OF THE TAO OF PHYSICS .

YOU KNOW WHERE YOU CAN TAKE THIS RELIGIOUS SUBLIME SPIRITUAL ELEMENT AND WRITE HAND IN GLOVE WITH THE SCIENCE AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE DOING TOGETHER NOW THE METAPHYSICAL AND THE PHYSICAL.

BUT YOU BLEND THOSE SO WELL, DID YOU DO IT CONSCIENTIOUSLY OR DID IT JUST UNFOLD?

>>ANNE: IT JUST UNFOLDED.

I HAVE TO SAY THE RESEARCH FOR THIS BOOK, EVERY BOOK I DO, I GET WRAPPED UP IN THE RESEARCH AND THEN EVENTUALLY IT DAWNS ON ME THAT I AM ACTUALLY WRITING A NOVEL AND NOT WRITING A BOOK ABOUT COSMOLOGY.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>ANNE: OR THE LONG WALK OR VOLCANOES, WHATEVER THE TOPIC HAS BEEN THAT IS THE RESEARCH TOPIC THAT HAS LURED ME IN.

AND THAT WAS THE SAME THING HERE, IT WAS JUST SUCH A RICH, RICH ASSORTMENT OF FACTS THAT I COULD HAVE PUT IN THE BOOK, I DID A LOT OF REWRITING WHICH BASICALLY WAS TRIMMING THINGS OUT.

I THOUGHT THEY WERE FASCINATING BUT THEY DIDN'T MOVE THE STORY ALONG.

I THINK THAT IS REALLY ONE OF THE CHALLENGES OF WRITING A FICTION, YOU NEED TO DO RESEARCH, YOU REALLY NEED TO HAVE IT GROUNDED FIRMLY IN FACT AND THEN YOU NEED TO CONCENTRATE, CONCENTRATE, CONCENTRATE THOSE FACTS SO IT IS JUST ENOUGH TO MAKE THE READER MAYBE CURIOUS TO GO AND LEARN SOMETHING ON THEIR OWN OR ENOUGH TO GIVE THE STORY ENOUGH BASIS THAT THEN THE FICTION CAN RISE.

>>LORENE: WHAT FANS OF YOUR FATHER'S ALWAYS TOLD HIM WAS OR SAID TO HIM WAS HOW MUCH THEY LEARNED FROM HIS BOOKS.

SO BESIDES THE MYSTERY STORY, THERE WERE FACTS ABOUT NAVAJO LIFE, NAVAJO PHILOSOPHY, RELIGION, ART, AND IT WAS ALL IN THERE, BE THE ART, WHETHER IT BE WEAVINGS, BE IT POTTERY, BE IT WHATEVER, IT WAS ALL COMBINED.

AND NOW YOU HAVE KIND OF LEAPED OFF INTO THE VOID IN THIS BEAUTIFUL WAY ABOUT THE WHOLE METAPHYSIC AND IT IS SO EDUCATIONAL AND I AM SO GRATEFUL TO YOU BECAUSE PEOPLE COME AWAY LEARNING ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE.

>>ANNE: YOU KNOW WHENEVER I READ FICTION I AM ALWAYS, IT IS ALWAYS SUCH A BONUS.

IF BESIDES GETTING A GOOD STORY, I LEARN, YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT HISTORY OR HOW TO MAKE SCONES OR HOW TO TRIM A POODLE YOU KNOW WHATEVER THE BOOK IS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

AND OF COURSE, AID AND ABETTED BY EVERY TIME WE GO OUTSIDE, THE NEW MEXICO SKIES ARE SO EXTRAORDINARY, AT ONE POINT YOU WERE LOOKING AT THAT WONDERFUL COMMA SHAPED COMET.

>>ANNE: RIGHT, RIGHT.

I AM LUCKY OR MAYBE UNLUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE A DOG WHO LIKES TO GO OUT ABOUT FIVE O'CLOCK AND PARTICULARLY IN THE WINTER THE STARS ARE BEAUTIFUL, IT IS REALLY STILL DARK OUT THERE.

I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE COMET, BUT IT WAS IN MARCH OF 2020, I REMEMBER THAT WAS WHEN IT WAS AT ITS PEAK AND IT SEEMED LIKE THERE WERE CLOUDS EVERY MORNING WE WOULD GO OUT AND THEN FINALLY WE GO OUT AND I REMEMBERED TO TAKE MY BINOCULARS AND IT'S LIKE THERE IT IS, JUST BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT IN THE NORTHWEST SKY.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>ANNE: AND I WAS SO GLAD I HAD THAT DOG.

I COULD HAVE PRACTICALLY KISSED IT.

>>LORENE: IT WAS SO BIG, IT WAS UNMISSABLE.

I MEAN YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HOW PRIMITIVE PEOPLE WHO WERE SEEING THIS WOULD BE QUITE IMPRESSED AND TRY TO ACCOMMODATE WHATEVER WAS GOING ON.

>>ANNE: AND IT KIND OF PUTS YOUR OWN VIEW OF YOUR OWN PROBLEMS IN PERSPECTIVE, I MEAN IT MAKES YOU SEEM A LITTLE LESS IMPORTANT IN THE GIANT BIG PICTURE OF THINGS.

>>LORENE: YES.

SO THAT IS ONE THING THAT I WANTED TO THANK YOU ABOUT BECAUSE YOU PUT THE MYSTERY WITH A CAPITAL "M" LIKE THE MYSTERY SCHOOLS OF ANCIENT THOUGHT, IN THE MYSTERY OF LIKE WHO DONE IT, SO THANK YOU.

AND I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO USE THE PANDEMIC TIME VERY MUCH, THIS WAS TWO YEARS SINCE YOUR LAST BOOK.

AND BY THE WAY, THIS CAME OUT ROUGHLY, IT HAS BEEN 50 YEARS SINCE YOUR DAD'S FIRST NOVEL, THE BLESSING WAY .

>>ANNE: THAT'S RIGHT.

THE BLESSING WAY WAS PUBLISHED IN 1970 AND I THINK IT CAME OUT IN MARCH OF 1970.

SO YES, IT WAS A LITTLE MORE THAN 50 YEARS NOW.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

>>ANNE: IT IS AMAZING THAT JOE LEAPHORN IS STILL AT WORK, HUH.

THAT'S A GOOD THING ABOUT FICTION, CHARACTERS DON'T HAVE TO AGE THE SAME WAY WE AGE.

>>LORENE: NO THEY DON'T, THEY DON'T.

>>ANNE: ONE THING THAT I WAS PLEASED TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT YOU THOUGHT THAT IT WAS A STRONG MYSTERY BECAUSE ONE SURPRISE I THOUGHT I KNEW WHO HAD DONE IT.

AND I GOT ABOUT THREE-FOURTHS OF THE WAY THROUGH THE BOOK AND I REALIZED THAT I HAD THE WRONG VILLAIN AND I REALLY FELT LUCKY THAT THIS WAS MY SIXTH BOOK BECAUSE I THINK IF THAT HAD HAPPENED WITH SPIDERWOMAN'S DAUGHTER, I MIGHT HAVE JUST GIVEN UP IN DESPAIR.

BUT I THOUGHT, WELL THERE IS PROBABLY A WAY I CAN FINESSE THIS SO ACTUALLY IT WILL MAKE IT A BETTER MYSTERY.

>>LORENE: IT ACTUALLY DID.

>>ANNE: AND THERE WAS A CHARACTER WHO HAD STARTED OUT AS A MINOR CHARACTER, WHO HAD BEEN KIND OF WHISPERING IN MY EAR, "I AM NOT AS GOOD AS YOU THINK I AM, THERE IS MORE TO ME THAN YOU KNOW."

AND THAT CHARACTER HAD BEEN PUSHING ME A LITTLE BIT.

SO I THOUGHT WELL WHAT IF, WHAT IF, SO I PLANTED A FEW CLUES EARLIER AND TOOK OUT A FEW THINGS THAT WERE A LITTLE TOO, THEY WERE INAPPROPRIATE WHEN I HAD A DIFFERENT VILLAIN.

AND I THINK IT WORKED OUT OKAY.

>>LORENE: OH, I THINK SO, TOO, THAT IS WHAT IS SO ASTONISHING ABOUT IT.

THAT'S WHY PEOPLE WHEN THEY START, STAY UP ALL NIGHT READING, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO KNOW HOW IT TURNS OUT.

BUT YOU USED YOUR PANDEMIC TIME TO WRITE THIS IS BOOK NUMBER SIX OF THE "BERNIE" SERIES.

>>ANNE: THAT'S RIGHT.

YEAH.

>>LORENE: AND TELL ME ABOUT BOOK NUMBER SEVEN.

>>ANNE: WELL BOOK NUMBER SEVEN IS NOW, ACTUALLY MY EDITOR HAD IT AND SHE JUST SENT IT BACK TO ME WITH SOME GOOD SUGGESTIONS.

BUT NUMBER SEVEN HAS JIM CHEE AS THE MAIN CRIME SOLVER WITH BERNIE WITH A VERY STRONG SECONDARY STORY.

AND BERNIE'S STORY INVOLVES A CANNABIS OPERATION THAT HAS GONE ASTRAY ON THE NAVAJO NATION.

>>LORENE: YEAH, REAL LIFE, YEAH.

>>ANNE: AND CHEE'S STORY IS SET AT LAKE POWELL.

CHEE HAS MADE A QUICK, SORT OF A PILGRIMAGE TO RAINBOW BRIDGE, WHICH IS A VERY SACRED SITE TO THE DINE AND TO A LOT OF THE TRIBES ALONG THE COLORADO PLATEAU, SO CHEE HAS GONE THERE.

IN STARGAZER HE AND BERNIE HAVE SOME CONFLICTS THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THEM WORKING IN THE SAME PROFESSION AND HIM HAVING TO BE HER BOSS.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>ANNE: SO THEY ARE BOTH SORT OF LOOKING AT THIS SITUATION AND ANYWAY SO IN BOOK SEVEN, CHEE TAKES SOME TIME OFF FROM WORK OR HE THINKS HE IS GOING TO TO DO SOME SOUL SEARCHING.

BUT SINCE HE IS A COP, HE FINDS A BODY AND SINCE HE IS A COP, HE CAN'T JUST SAY, "WELL, THIS ISN'T MY JURISDICTION," AND THE DEAD PERSON ALSO IS A NAVAJO SO CHEE GETS INVOLVED IN FIGURING OUT WHO DONE IT AND WHY.

AND MEANWHILE BERNIE IS DEALING WITH THE MARIJUANA OPERATION.

YEAH, THE PROBLEM WITH BOOK SEVEN WAS AS YOU KNOW THE PANDEMIC HIT THE NAVAJO NATION SO HARD THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CLOSED TO OUTSIDERS.

AND SO PART OF MY PROCESS IS TO GO TO THE SITE THAT I AM WRITING ABOUT AND REALLY GET AN EYE FOR WHAT THE SOUNDS ARE LIKE, WHAT THE AIR SMELLS LIKE, WHAT THE TEMPERATURE IS LIKE, AND I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO THAT WITH THE BOOK THAT I JUST FINISHED.

BUT I AM HOPING THAT BEFORE I HAVE TO FINALIZE IT, THE NAVAJO NATION WILL OPEN AND I CAN GO TO ANTELOPE CANYON, WHICH IS ALSO IN THE BOOK AND JUST SPEND A LITTLE MORE TIME MAKING SURE THAT I HAVE THE REAL INTRICACIES OF THE SETTING.

>>LORENE: YES, WELL I THINK THEY HAVE BEEN VERY RESPONSIVE TO THE VACCINATION PROGRAM, LORD KNOWS THEY HAVE PAID SUCH A PRICE, THEY LOST SO MANY PEOPLE AT THE BEGINNING.

>>ANNE: AND SO MANY OF THEM WERE ELDERS, WHICH IS NOT ONLY LOSING PEOPLE YOU LOVE BUT ALSO LOSING SUCH A BIG PART OF YOUR HERITAGE.

>>LORENE: WELL, WHEN I STARTED RESEARCHING NAVAJO COSMOLOGY, I REALIZED THAT IT IS THE ELDERS OF EACH FAMILY AND EACH CLAN WHO TELLS THE NEW FAMILY MEMBERS, IN THE WINTER AT NIGHT, THE STORIES OF THE CREATION MYTHS, THE LEGENDS ABOUT ALL THE CONSTELLATIONS.

AND IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO TRANSMIT THAT KNOWLEDGE TO BRIGHT NEW SOULS AND TO LOSE THAT KIND OF HERITAGE IT'S HEARTBREAKING.

>>ANNE: AND THEY ARE COMPLICATED STORIES.

I MEAN I KNOW JUST MY FAMILY STORIES ARE NOT NEARLY THAT COMPLICATED BUT I HAD TO HEAR THEM FIVE OR SIX TIMES TO KIND OF GET THE DETAILS AND TO THINK OF WHAT QUESTIONS TO ASK TO ENCOURAGE MY MOM OR MY GRANDMOTHER TO TELL ME MORE.

AND I AM SURE IT IS THE SAME WAY WITH NAVAJO FAMILIES, THE MORE YOU HEAR THE MORE YOU RESPECT THE STORIES AND THE MORE YOU WANT TO HEAR MORE.

>>LORENE: WELL TELL US, WE HAVE COME TO THE END OF OUR TIME, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, WHAT YOU WANT LIKE PEOPLE TO LOOK FOR AND WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO KNOW AND WHAT IS THIS GIFT YOU HAVE GIVE US.

>>ANNE: YOU KNOW I THINK ALL OF US HAVE HAD SUCH A HARD TIME LATELY.

I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE FUN, REALLY TO ENJOY READING THIS BOOK AND THEN MAYBE FOR IT TO INSPIRE THEM TO GO OUT AND LOOK AT THE NIGHT SKY THEMSELVES.

YOU KNOW, TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHEN THE METEOR SHOWERS ARE, WHEN THE COMETS ARE GOING BY, WHEN IT IS A FULL MOON OR A NEW MOON, ALL OF THOSE WONDERFUL THINGS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO US FOR FREE.

AND I THINK IT REALLY OPENS OUR MINDS AND EXPANDS OUR HEARTS AND PARTICULARLY TO GO OUT WITH A CHILD WHO IS IN YOUR LIFE AND TELL THEM EVEN IF IT IS THE GREEK STORIES THAT WE KNOW, WHATEVER THE STORIES, JUST TO KIND OF EXPLAIN TO THEM THAT THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN JUST OUR OWN LITTLE CIRCLES.

>>LORENE: I KNOW THAT IT IS JUST A BUNCH OF DOTS IN THE SKY, I LOVE THE COYOTE THROWING THE MICA UP IN THE AIR AND IT BECOMES THE STARS, BUT THERE ARE SO MANY POINTS OF LIGHT, IT IS A TWO-WAY STREET, OUR LOOKING UP AT THE STARS AND THEM LOOKING DOWN AT US.

SO IT IS A BLESSING.

>>ANNE: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: AS YOUR FATHER WOULD SAY, THE BLESSING WAY.

IT IS A BLESSING FOR ALL OF US BUT YOUR BOOKS ARE A BLESSING FOR US AND I AM SO GRATEFUL TO YOU FOR WRITING.

I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR COMING BACK ON OUR SHOW.

>>ANNE: OH, ANYTIME, ANYTIME, IT IS SUCH A PLEASURE.

>>LORENE: JUST KEEP WRITING, SO OUR GUEST TODAY IS ANNE HILLERMAN.

I HAVE BEEN KIND OF SMITTEN WITH YOUR NEW BOOK, STARGAZER , THE SIXTH IN THE "BERNIE" SERIES, BERNIE MANUELITO.

AND SO THIS OTHER BOOK IS ALMOST DONE SO IT WON'T BE LONG,MAYBE A YEAR?

>>ANNE: A YEAR, I THINK IT WILL BE OUT NEXT SPRING.

>>LORENE: OH THAT WILL BE GOOD, WELL, WE HAVE A DATE.

>>ANNE: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: THANK YOU SO MUCH, ANNE HILLERMAN.

>>ANNE: THANK YOU, LORENE.

>>LORENE: AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

>>ANNOUNCER: REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NATIONAL EDUCATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF NEW MEXICO, AN ORGANIZATION OF PROFESSIONALS WHO BELIEVE THAT INVESTING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION IS AN INVESTMENT IN OUR STATE'S ECONOMIC FUTURE, FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM