REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

I AM SO HAPPY THAT OUR GUEST TODAY IS ANNE HILLERMAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>ANNE: THANK YOU.

LORENE, IT'S ALWAYS AN HONOR TO BE WITH YOU.

>>LORENE: ALWAYS A PLEASURE BECAUSE I DEVOUR YOUR BOOKS AND THANK GOODNESS, YOU'RE VERY PROLIFIC.

SO EVERY YEAR I HAVE A NEW TREAT BECAUSE THIS TIME WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK CALLED LOST BIRDS , A VERY RICH AND POIGNANT BOOK, WE'LL TELL YOU MORE ABOUT IT.

BUT YOUR FATHER, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR DAD, TONY HILLERMAN.

>>ANNE: WELL, TONY HILLERMAN WAS A LONG TIME NEW MEXICAN, AND HE WAS THE ONE WHO BEGAN THIS SERIES, HIS FIRST BOOK WAS PUBLISHED... >>LORENE: FIFTY YEARS AGO.

THE BLESSING WAY .

>>ANNE: THAT'S RIGHT, 50 YEARS AGO, YEAH.

AND SO HE LAUNCHED THE CHARACTER OF JOE LEAPHORN AND THEN LATER CAME JIM CHEE AND THEN MUCH LATER CAME BERNADETTE MANUELITO AND DAD INTRODUCED HER AS A MINOR CHARACTER.

AFTER HE DIED, I LOVED HIS STORIES AND I THOUGHT, IT'S JUST A SHAME FOR THIS SERIES TO FADE AWAY WITHOUT BERNADETTE MANUELITO HAVING A CHANCE TO BECOME A FULL-FLEDGED CRIME SOLVER.

SO DAD CREATED BERNIE, BUT I KIND OF GAVE HER MORE OF A BACKBONE AND BUILT HER UP TO BE ON THE SAME LEVEL AS THE GUYS THAT DAD LOVED.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE YOU HAVE TOLD ME IN THE PAST YOU GREW UP WITH THOSE CHARACTERS AND YOU WERE MISSING YOUR DAD VERY MUCH AFTER HE PASSED AWAY, I'M SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS, FOR ALL OF OUR LOSS, BUT YOU ALSO MISSED HIS CHARACTERS.

WHAT WOULD LEAPHORN BE DOING NOW, WE KNEW HE WAS GOING TO RETIRE, BUT YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T KEEP AN OLD COP OFF THE BEAT AND THEN WHAT IS CHEE DOING AND THEN THE WAY YOU ELEVATED THE CHARACTER, THE NAVAJO POLICE DETECTIVE, TO THE LEADING ROLE WAS JUST MAGNIFICENT, SO I REALLY WANT TO THANK YOU FOR THAT.

BUT YOU HAD A LOT OF CHALLENGES BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO BE TRUE TO TONY'S, TO YOUR DAD'S BOOKS, BUT YOU WANTED TO MAKE IT YOUR OWN AND YOU HAVE DONE IT WITH FLYING COLORS.

>>ANNE: WELL, THANK YOU.

YEAH, THERE WERE A LOT OF CHALLENGES.

I THINK WHEN MOST PEOPLE ARE WRITING THEIR FIRST NOVEL, I MEAN, IT'S ALWAYS A CHALLENGE.

>>LORENE: INCIDENTALLY, YOU DID GET THE SPUR AWARD FOR BEST FIRST NOVEL IN 2014.

>>ANNE: I DID, I GUESS ALL MY ALL MY WORRYING PAID OFF.

I HAD MAYBE MORE TREPIDATION THAN THE AVERAGE FIRST TIME NOVELIST BECAUSE I KNEW MY DAD HAD SET SUCH A HIGH STANDARD AND SINCE I WAS WRITING ABOUT THE SAME CHARACTERS AND SINCE WE HAVE THE SAME LAST NAME, I THOUGHT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE VERY HIGH EXPECTATIONS.

AND IF I DON'T DO WELL WITH THIS BOOK, I'M PROBABLY NOT GOING TO GET ANOTHER CHANCE TO WRITE A SECOND BOOK.

SO I WAS JUST DELIGHTED NOT ONLY WITH GETTING THE AWARD, BUT ALSO JUST WITH READERS RESPONSES, HOW PEOPLE WOULD SAY, GEE WE'RE SO GLAD TO SEE THESE CHARACTERS BACK.

AND SO MANY PEOPLE SAID, IT'S HIGH TIME THAT A WOMAN, A WOMAN POLICE OFFICER, ROSE TO THE STATUS THAT BERNIE HAS NOW.

>>LORENE: LET ALONE A WOMAN POLICE OFFICER OF COLOR.

>>ANNE: CORRECT!

>>LORENE: IT'S THE TIME, IT'S THE TIME.

YOU HAVE BEEN AN ACCOMPLISHED JOURNALIST FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND NOW, OF COURSE, YOU'RE A NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLING AUTHOR MANY TIMES OVER.

BUT YOU WON THE FRANK WATERS AWARD, THE NEW MEXICO PRESS WOMEN'S AWARD, THE SPUR AWARD, WE MENTIONED, THE 2022 ROUNDERS AWARD AND ALSO THE NEW MEXICO ARIZONA BOOK AWARD.

SO YOU'RE RECOGNITION AND THEN YOUR DEVOTED FANS WHO WERE SO HAPPY TO SEE THE STORIES CONTINUE AND I'M SURE THEY WRITE YOU AND WANT TO KNOW EVEN WHEN THE NEXT ONE IS AS SOON AS THIS ONE COMES OUT, THEY BUY IT AND DEVOUR IT.

>>ANNE: THEY'RE WONDERFUL.

YOU KNOW, WRITING IS SUCH A SOLITARY PROFESSION, REALLY.

I THINK MOST WRITERS WHO GET THE JOB DONE HAVE TO SPEND A LONG TIME JUST BY THEMSELVES WITH THEIR IMAGINARY FRIENDS IN THE WORLD THAT THEY'RE CREATING.

SO IT'S REALLY WONDERFUL THEN TO HEAR FROM FANS AND TO HAVE A CHANCE TO GO OUT AND TALK IN BOOKSTORES AND TALK IN LIBRARIES.

>>LORENE: IT'S THE OPPOSITE OF THE SOLITARY WRITER'S LIFE.

>>ANNE: IT IS, IT'S KIND OF A BIPOLAR SCHIZOPHRENIC LIFE ALMOST, WHERE HERE YOU ARE QUIETLY A LITTLE HERMIT LIFE, AND THEN HERE YOU ARE BEING TOTALLY EXTROVERTED, TALKING TO A LOT OF STRANGERS WHO REALLY ARE, THEY AREN'T STRANGERS, THOUGH, BECAUSE THEY'RE IN THE SAME FAMILY OF APPRECIATION FOR THESE WONDERFUL CHARACTERS THAT MY DAD CREATED.

>>LORENE: WELL, THEY BECOME EXTENDED FAMILY OF YOUR CHARACTERS AND YOU KNOW, THEY WANT TO KNOW MORE.

BUT YOU HAVE A THING ABOUT SPIDER WOMAN'S DAUGHTER AND WHAT I'VE ALWAYS LOVED ABOUT YOU IS YOU'RE A BIT OF SPIDER WOMAN'S DAUGHTER YOURSELF BECAUSE YOU WEAVE A TAPESTRY WITH THE WARP AND WEFT OF HISTORY AND CULTURE AND TRADITION AND REALLY WONDERFUL, INTRIGUING CHARACTERS AND COMPELLING PLOTS, SO CONGRATULATIONS.

SO IN MY BOOK, YOU'RE SPIDER WOMAN'S DAUGHTER, TOO.

>>ANNE: THANK YOU.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE SO LUCKY TO LIVE IN A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE ALL OF THEM, WE DON'T HAVE TO LOOK FAR TO FIND THE THREADS.

I MEAN, THERE'S SO MUCH WONDERFUL HISTORY HERE AND THEN THE ARCHAEOLOGY, THE GEOLOGY, IT'S JUST SUCH A RICH, RICH ENVIRONMENT FOR A WRITER.

I FEEL SO FORTUNATE THAT, I MEAN WHEN I WAS ONLY THREE MY MOM AND DAD MOVED TO NEW MEXICO, AND IT'S JUST BEEN THE HOME OF MY HEART EVER SINCE.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YES.

WHAT I LOVE ABOUT WATCHING BERNIE THROUGH ALL OF THESE BOOKS, BERNADETTE MANUELITO, THE HERO, THE PROTAGONIST.

SHE HAS A GREAT SENSE, THE NAVAJO HAVE A SAYING, I DON'T WANT TO CULTURALLY MISAPPROPRIATE THIS, BUT TO WALK IN BEAUTY AND TO HAVE A VERY DEEP, ALMOST INTUITIVE SENSE OF WHEN SOMETHING IS OUT OF PLACE.

AND THAT'S AN AMAZING PLACE TO DO DETECTIVE WORK, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I MEAN IF THERE IS A BLOOD-STAINED FOOTPRINT OR A KNIFE WITH FINGERPRINTS ON IT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S PRETTY EASY, BUT THERE ARE OTHER SIGNS OF THINGS BEING OUT OF PLACE THAT IT TAKES A VERY SPIRITUAL AND INTUITIVE DEGREE OF SOPHISTICATION TO NOTICE THEM AND BERNIE HAS THAT.

>>ANNE: YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, AND SOME OF THAT I THINK IS JUST HER PERSONALITY.

AND SOME OF IT IS, NOW SHE'S BEEN IN LAW ENFORCEMENT A FEW YEARS AND SHE'S HAD SOME REALLY GOOD MENTORS, INCLUDING LEAPHORN, WHO THANK GOODNESS I ALWAYS, JOE WAS THE FIRST CHARACTER THAT MY DAD INVENTED WHEN HE DECIDED HE WAS GOING TO WRITE MYSTERIES AND WHEN I WROTE MY FIRST MYSTERY, I DIDN'T FEEL COMPETENT ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH ALL THREE CHARACTERS.

SO I INVENTED SOMETHING TO KIND OF PUT JOE ON THE SIDELINE.

>>LORENE: ON ICE, SO TO SPEAK.

HE WAS IN A COMA.

>>ANNE: YEAH, YEAH, WE DON'T WANT TO GIVE AWAY TOO MUCH.

>>LORENE: NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, WE DON'T.

>>ANNE: ANYWAY, THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST BOOKS I WAS ABLE TO BRING JOE BACK AS A ROOTIN TOOTIN CRIME SOLVER AGAIN.

>>LORENE: BUT ALSO A SENIOR, MUCH RESPECTED NAVAJO POLICE OFFICER, THAT WHEREVER HE WENT, PEOPLE WERE GLAD TO SEE HIM AND WANTED HIS HELP.

THIS IS THE 27TH LEAPHORN/CHEE/MANUELITO BOOK, TWENTY SEVEN.

>>ANNE: THAT'S RIGHT.

I GUESS WE SHOULD SAY THE 27TH IN THE SERIES, BECAUSE AT FIRST IT WAS JUST LEAPHORN.

>>LORENE: YES, THAT'S TRUE.

>>ANNE: A FEW BOOKS LATER CHEE CAME IN AND A FEW BOOKS LATER BERNIE CAME IN, BUT IT'S CERTAINLY THAT MANY BOOKS IN THE HILLERMAN MYSTERIES SERIES.

>>LORENE: YEAH, THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD SAY, FORGIVE ME.

THE OTHER THING THAT I HAVE TO JUST HUSH MY MOUTH, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MYSTERIES, AND WE CAN'T GIVE AWAY THE MYSTERY.

AND I'M SORRY I SLIPPED UP, BUT I CAN PROMISE ANYONE WHO EMBARKS ON THIS VOYAGE THAT IT WILL BE TANTALIZING AND DELIGHTFUL AND FULL OF MYSTERIES.

THERE ARE CHARACTERS AND PLOT, BUT ALSO LANDSCAPE AND HISTORY AND WEATHER ARE, YOU KNOW NEW MEXICO SO WELL AND THEY ARE ALSO MORE THAN JUST BACKDROPS, THEY BECOME CHARACTERS TOO.

AND I LOVE THAT ABOUT IT AND BEING A NEW MEXICAN, IT RINGS TRUE.

AND FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T NEW MEXICANS, THEY SAY, COULD THE SKIES BE THAT BLUE, COULD THE CLOUDS BE THAT FLUFFY, COULD THE SUN BE THAT BRIGHT AND THE ANSWER IS YES.

FANS TOLD YOUR DAD HOW MUCH THEY LEARNED FROM THE BOOKS AND ABOUT NAVAJO LIFE AND RELIGION AND CULTURE.

AND IN THIS, AMAZINGLY, I LEARNED SO MUCH ABOUT NAVAJO RUGS.

SO THIS WHOLE STARTS AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SUCH A LESSON IN SLEUTHING WITH IT WAS AN OLD PHOTOGRAPH, THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH AS A WRITER, OF A COUPLE HOLDING A NAVAJO BLANKET AND THAT'S THAT.

OLD, NO DATE, NO NOTHING.

>>ANNE: THAT'S RIGHT.

>>LORENE: AND TELL ME HOW YOU DEVELOP THAT.

>>ANNE: MY GOODNESS.

MY WHOLE PROCESS IS KIND OF A SPIRAL.

I USUALLY START WITH THE SCENERY AND SO WITH LOST BIRDS , ON THE COVER OF LOST BIRDS, THERE'S PICTURE OF A GEOLOGICAL FEATURE KNOWN AS ELEPHANT FEET, WHICH IS ON THE NAVAJO NATION NEAR THE TONALEA AREA.

I HAD ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY THAT AND SO I THOUGHT AND I ALWAYS, ALWAYS WHENEVER HUNDREDS OF TIMES I'VE DRIVEN BY IT, THERE'S ALWAYS SOMEONE TAKING A PHOTOGRAPH THERE.

AND SO I THOUGHT, WELL, THIS ISN'T SOMETHING NEW, OF COURSE, PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS TAKEN PHOTOGRAPHS BY THIS GEOLOGY.

SO THEN I THOUGHT, WHAT IS CHARACTERISTIC OF THIS PART OF THE NAVAJO NATION THAT WOULD BE BESIDES ELEPHANT FEET THEMSELVES, THAT WOULD BE IN A PHOTOGRAPH.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, I THOUGHT OF WEAVING AND THE ART OF NAVAJO WEAVING, AT LEAST IN THE EARLY DAYS, WAS VERY REGIONAL.

YOU COULD TELL WHERE A WEAVER WAS FROM BY THE DESIGNS THAT WERE IN HER WEAVING, SO I THOUGHT WHAT KIND OF WEAVING WAS TRADITIONAL TO THIS AREA.

SO SORT OF THOSE TWO IDEAS STARTED INTERPLAYING IN MY BRAIN AND NEXT THING I KNEW I HAD THE PHOTO AND THEN NEXT THING I KNEW, THE PHOTO BECAME A CLUE TO THIS WOMAN WHO BELIEVES THAT SHE'S NAVAJO.

BUT SHE WAS ADOPTED BEFORE THE INDIAN CHILD WELFARE ACT, AND THAT'S THE ACT WHICH SAID NATIVE CHILDREN SHOULD BE KEPT IN THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE RATHER THAN ADOPTED BY GOOD HEARTED WHITE FOLKS.

SO THIS WOMAN WAS ADOPTED BEFORE THAT, SO SHE WAS NOT RAISED IN THE DINE TRADITION.

SO SHE'S NOT EVEN REALLY SURE THAT SHE'S NAVAJO, BUT BECAUSE OF THIS PICTURE, SHE THINKS SHE MIGHT BE.

SO WHO BETTER TO HIRE THAN JOE LEAPHORN TO HELP HER FIGURE OUT HER OWN MYSTERY?

>>LORENE: AND THE OTHER THING IS THAT THEY ARE LOST BIRDS BECAUSE THEY'RE CHILDREN THAT WERE EITHER LEGITIMATELY OR STOLEN AND GIVEN TO WHITE FAMILIES AND HAVE NO SENSE, NO ROOTS, NO HOME, NO LAND.

SO THERE'S A NOSTALGIA, THERE'S A QUERENCIA, FOR THE PLACE YOU BELONG.

AND SO THEY ARE LIKE LOST BIRDS TRYING TO FIND OUT WHO AM I AND WHERE AM I FROM.

AND THE FACT THAT WHILE THERE WERE VERY MANY LEGITIMATE ADOPTIONS OF NAVAJO CHILDREN INTO WHITE FAMILIES, SOME OF THEM WERE NOT, AND THEY WERE STOLEN FROM THEIR FAMILY AND THEN SOLD OR GIVEN LEGITIMATELY OR ILLEGITIMATELY TO OTHER FAMILIES, MOSTLY WHITE, AND THEN FOR THEM TO WAKE UP AND SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, ALL I HAVE IS THIS PICTURE.

WHO AM I, WHERE ARE MY PEOPLE?

>>ANNE: RIGHT.

AND I THINK THE OTHER SIDE OF LOST BIRDS IS THAT THE NEST THAT THEY LEFT, THE RELATIVES, THE EXTENDED FAMILY REMEMBERS THEM AND LONGS FOR THEM.

I MEAN, TO ME THAT'S ANOTHER REALLY PART OF THE POIGNANCY OF NOT JUST MY STORY, BUT IN THE STORY IN GENERAL OF THESE LOST BIRDS WHO EVENTUALLY ARE ABLE TO SOMEHOW OR OTHER FIND OUT WHERE THEY BELONG.

>>LORENE: WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH ANNE HILLERMAN ABOUT HER BOOK LOST BIRDS .

AND ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND WAS SO POIGNANT IS THAT THE PROTAGONIST JUST WANTS TO KNOW PEOPLE WHO KNEW HER MOM AND DAD, WHO KNEW HER FAMILY, ANYONE WHO COULD REMEMBER STORIES ABOUT THEM, YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DID, YOU KNOW WHO THEY WERE OR ANYTHING SHE COULD FIND OUT TO FILL IN THAT HOLE IN HER HISTORY.

>>ANNE: THAT'S RIGHT.

AND SO OFTEN STORIES LIKE THAT DON'T REALLY HAVE GOOD ENDINGS, BUT IN LOST BIRDS , IT DOES HAVE A GOOD ENDING.

AND PART OF THE REASON I THINK THAT THAT STORY APPEALED TO ME IS THAT I HAVE FIVE OR HAD FIVE ADOPTED BROTHERS AND SISTERS, I HAVE A LOT OF ADOPTED COUSINS AND SOME OF THEM HAVE LOOKED FOR THEIR BIOLOGICAL PARENTS AND SOME OF THEM HAVE NOT.

BUT ONE OF MY COUSINS DID LOOK FOR HIS BIOLOGICAL MOTHER AND THEY REUNITED, AND IT REALLY WAS WONDERFUL FOR BOTH OF THEM.

SO THAT STORY, THAT WAS MY COUSIN CARL, AND THAT STORY REALLY KIND OF INSPIRED ME TO THINK SOME OF THESE, I MEAN, HE WASN'T A NATIVE CHILD, BUT SOME OF THESE NATIVE CHILDREN OR EVEN OTHER ADOPTED CHILDREN WHO LOOK FOR THEIR BIOLOGICAL PARENTS CAN HAVE HAPPY ENDINGS.

>>LORENE: YEAH AND I THINK A MOM, NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, BECAUSE A LOT OF THINGS ARE HAPPENING IN A MOTHER'S LIFE TO GIVE UP A CHILD, BUT THEY'RE ALWAYS, THERE'S THAT CONNECTION.

THEY'RE WONDERING DID HE OR SHE TURN OUT OKAY, IS HE ALIVE, IS HE HAPPY, IS HE IS SHE HUNGRY, YOU KNOW, DID I DO THE RIGHT THING?

AND THEN TO SEE THEM COME BACK IN, ALTHOUGH IN ONE OF THE CASES HERE, ONE OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS COMES BACK AND IT IS VERY DIFFICULT.

TALK A LITTLE ABOUT THAT REUNION, IF YOU DON'T MIND.

>>ANNE: THE OTHER THING THAT I REALLY LOVED IN WRITING THIS BOOK, BECAUSE JOE LEAPHORN IS AGAIN A CENTRAL CRIME SOLVER, I WAS ABLE TO FURTHER DEVELOP THE CHARACTER OF HIS HOUSEMATE, LOUISA BOURBONETTE.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>ANNE: WHEN MY DAD CREATED LOUISA, SHE'S JUST KIND OF A PLACEHOLDER, I WOULD SAY.

I MEAN, NOT THAT HE DIDN'T LIKE HER, BUT HE WAS MOVING ON WITH OTHER THINGS IN THE STORY.

WHEREAS, SO IN LOST BIRDS AND KIND OF AS A COUNTERBALANCE TO THE STORY OF THE WOMAN WHO THINKS SHE'S NAVAJO, LOUISA HAS A SON WHO'S A TROUBLED MAN, AND HE COMES BACK AND THEY HAVE A OF SORT OF REUNION OF SORTS AND THEN THINGS GO SIDEWAYS AND BECAUSE IT'S A MYSTERY, I'M NOT GOING TO SAY TOO MUCH.

BUT IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING TO ME TO FURTHER DEVELOP LOUISA'S CHARACTER AND TO DEVELOP HER RELATIONSHIP WITH JOE LEAPHORN.

YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING IN MYSTERIES, YOU HAVE THE THREAD, SOMETHING HAPPENS, SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENS, SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENS AND THEN IN THE END, THE CRIME IS SOLVED.

AND YOU HAVE SOME READERS WHO READ MYSTERIES FOR THAT AND THEN YOU HAVE READERS, AND I'M LEARNING AN INCREASING NUMBER OF READERS WHO REALLY READ BECAUSE THEY LIKE THE CHARACTERS AND BESIDES THE STORY ITSELF, THEY WANT TO KNOW, SO WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH JOE AND LOUISA AND ARE THEY REALLY EVER GOING TO GET MARRIED AND WHAT IS THIS RELATIONSHIP ANYWAY AND WHO IS THIS LOUISA PERSON?

AND IN ITS WAY, THAT'S KIND OF ITS OWN MYSTERY.

SO IT WAS REALLY FUN FOR ME, IN LOST BIRDS TO DEVELOP HER CHARACTER A LITTLE MORE.

>>LORENE: WELL, NOW THIS HAS GONE, YOUR WORK HAS GONE INTO FILM AND TELEVISION IN A REALLY BEAUTIFUL WAY.

AMC HAS A SERIES CALLED DARK WINDS, AND SEASON THREE WILL BE SHOWN IN 2025.

THEY TOOK SOME LIBERTIES, THEY CHANGED THINGS AROUND, BUT IT'S PRETTY MUCH, TELL ME ABOUT THE ACTORS AND THE SCREENWRITERS.

IT'S PRETTY MUCH A NATIVE AMERICAN PRODUCTION.

>>ANNE: IT CERTAINLY IS.

ONE THING THAT I REALLY LIKE ABOUT THE AMC PRODUCTION, DARK WINDS, IS THAT THEY MOVED IT BACK IN TIME TO THE 1970S, WHICH WAS WHEN DAD, YOU KNOW, FIRST WROTE THE BOOK.

SO INSTEAD OF SEEING JOE LEAPHORN AS SORT OF THE RETIRED, YOU KNOW, MENTOR, YOU GET TO SEE JOE LEAPHORN AS, YOU KNOW, A MAN IN HIS PRIME AND THAT PART OF THE SERIES I REALLY LIKED.

THEY ALSO INCORPORATED BERNADETTE MANUELITO.

NOW IN MY VISION OF BERNIE SHE WASN'T REALLY EVEN BORN IN THE 1970S.

BUT NOT ONLY IS SHE IN THE MOVIE, SHE GETS TO BE JIM CHEE'S BOSS IN THE FIRST SEASON, WHICH I THOUGHT WAS REALLY DELIGHTFUL.

THEY MADE A FEW OTHER FAIRLY MAJOR CHANGES.

THEY BROUGHT JOE LEAPHORN'S WIFE, EMMA, BACK FROM THE DEAD AND HAVE GIVEN HER A REALLY IMPORTANT JOB.

AND THEY GAVE JOE AND EMMA A CHILD WHO'S KILLED IN AN EXPLOSION, I DON'T WANT TO AGAIN, BECAUSE IT'S A MYSTERY SERIES.

I DON'T WANT TO SAY TOO MUCH ABOUT IT.

BUT THEY'VE TAKEN A LOT OF LIBERTIES WITH DAD'S STORIES, BUT I THINK THEY'VE REALLY KEPT THE ESSENCE OF THE CHARACTERS.

THEY HAVEN'T TURNED ANY OF THEM INTO KIND OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE A STRONG MORAL COMPASS AND THAT WAS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT TO MY FATHER WHEN HE WAS CREATING THE SERIES.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ANNE: SO, I MEAN, I MIGHT QUIBBLE WITH A FEW THINGS THEY'VE DONE AND I MIGHT GIVE THEM A GOLD STAR FOR CHANGES THEY'D MADE THAT I DIDN'T THINK OF, THAT I THINK ARE REALLY BRILLIANT.

BUT ALL IN ALL, I'M VERY PLEASED WITH IT AND IT WAS NOMINATED FOR WHAT'S CALLED AN EDGAR AWARD, THAT'S AN AWARD GIVEN BY THE MYSTERY WRITERS OF AMERICA.

AND IT'S LIKE THE ACADEMY AWARDS OF MYSTERY WRITING AND THEY HAVE A CATEGORY FOR BEST SCRIPT FOR A TELEVISION SERIES.

>>LORENE: WOW.

>>ANNE: I MEAN, IF YOU THINK OF HOW MANY MYSTERIES ARE ON TV, IT'S HUNDREDS, BUT ONLY FIVE SCRIPTS WERE NOMINATED.

AND ONE OF THOSE WAS THE SCRIPT FOR THE LAST EPISODE OF SEASON TWO FOR DARK WINDS .

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS.

>>ANNE: AND IT DIDN'T WIN, BUT JUST BEING NOMINATED.

>>LORENE: EXACTLY.

>>ANNE: WAS WONDERFUL.

I WAS JUST SO PROUD OF THOSE WRITERS.

I LOVE THE SERIES AND I'M VERY MUCH LOOKING FORWARD TO SEASON THREE.

>>LORENE: WELL, THIS IS A TIME, THANK GOODNESS AT LONG LAST, THAT NATIVE VOICES ARE BEING AMPLIFIED.

RESERVATION DOGS IS A SERIES THAT HAS BEEN VERY, VERY POPULAR AND A LOT OF NATIVE PRODUCED FILMS, BOOKS AND TV SHOWS ARE FINALLY FINDING THEIR AUDIENCE.

BEEN THERE ALL ALONG, WONDERING, WANTING TO KNOW MORE.

>>ANNE: THAT'S RIGHT.

SO THE DARK WINDS PRODUCERS DID AN EXCELLENT JOB OF CASTING NATIVE PEOPLE IN THE MAIN ROLE, JESSICA MADDEN, WHO IS A NATIVE FROM CANADA, PLAYS THE BERNADETTE MANUELITO CHARACTER, AND JESSICA ALSO READS THE AUDIOBOOK.

>>LORENE: I LISTENED TO THE AUDIOBOOK, SHE WAS WONDERFUL.

>>ANNE: SHE JUST GOT A BIG GOLD STAR FROM AUDIOFILE.

THEY GAVE HER A WONDERFUL REVIEW.

AND THIS IS I JUST LOVE THAT CONNECTION OF HAVING AN ACTRESS WHO HAS PLAYED THE PART, NOW READING IT IN THE I MEAN, IN A WHOLE NEW A WHOLE NEW VISION OF BERNIE.

ANYWAY, THEY ALSO HAD NATIVE WRITERS WORKING ON THE SCRIPT AND THEY HIRED A CULTURAL CONSULTANT FROM THE NAVAJO NATION, SO I'M VERY, VERY HAPPY WITH HOW DARK WINDS AND HOW THEY HAVE CONTINUED MY DAD'S LEGACY AND THE WAY I'VE UPDATED IT.

>>LORENE: I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE ACTUAL LOST BIRDS , BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY LAYERS IN THIS.

THERE ARE SOME LOST BIRDS WHO FIND THE NESTS AGAIN AND SOME WHO DON'T, BUT I THINK ANYBODY READING THIS UNDERSTANDS THAT THE NOSTALGIA AND THE WANTING TO BE COMPLETE AND TO BE WHOLE AGAIN.

BUT ARE THERE OTHER CULTURES, IT JUST SEEMS TO ME, ALTHOUGH THIS IS NATIVE AMERICAN AND NAVAJO, THIS MUST WORK FOR MANY OTHER CULTURES, THE SLAVES THAT WERE TAKEN AWAY FROM THEIR LIFE, THEIR FAMILY, THEIR CONTINENT.

>>ANNE: YEAH, FOR SURE.

MAYBE SOME OF THOSE CHINESE GIRLS WHO WERE ADOPTED BY SO MANY FAMILIES WHO WEREN'T CHINESE BACK WHEN CHINA WAS TRYING TO RESTRICT THEIR POPULATION.

>>LORENE: YEAH, ONE CHILD AND IT BETTER BE A BOY AND SO ALL THESE CHINESE, LOVELY CHINESE GIRLS WERE...YEAH.

>>ANNE: I MEAN, I THINK IT WAS A REAL GIFT TO THE UNITED STATES TO HAVE ALL OF THESE BRIGHT MINDS HERE.

YOU KNOW, ANOTHER LOST BIRD IN MY BOOK, LOST BIRDS, IS REALLY THE GENTLEMAN WITH WHOM THE STORY OPENS, THIS MAN NAMED CECIL BOWLEGS.

>>LORENE: OH YES!

>>ANNE: HE WAS THE CHARACTER THAT MY DAD HAD CREATED IN DANCE HALL OF THE DEAD, WHICH WAS HIS SECOND BOOK WITH JOE LEAPHORN AND IN THAT BOOK, CECIL BOWLEGS IS JUST A CHILD, BUT HIS BROTHER IS MISSING.

SO JOE, AND BECAUSE THEY'RE A NAVAJO FAMILY LIVING IN RAMAH, WHICH IS RIGHT NEXT TO THE ZUNI PUEBLO.

ANYWAY, JOE LEAPHORN GETS INVOLVED IN THE CASE AND IT TURNS OUT THE BROTHER IS DEAD.

BUT JOE IS VERY KIND TO THE YOUNGER BROTHER AND SO THE YOUNGER BROTHER, CECIL, REMEMBERS THIS SO MANY YEARS LATER, WHEN HE'S IN TROUBLE OR WHEN SOMEONE HE LOVES IS IN TROUBLE, HE CONTACTS JOE.

BUT THEN BY ABOUT PAGE THREE, THINGS HAVE ALREADY GONE SIDEWAYS.

>>LORENE: YES, BUT THAT WAS LOVELY TO HAVE THAT, EVEN THOUGH HE WAS A CHILD, TO REMEMBER THAT LEAPHORN HAD HELPED HIM AND THEN COME TO HIM WHEN IT WAS HIS WIFE, THAT WAS MISSING.

AND THEN THAT BECAME A VERY COMPLEX AND INTRIGUING MYSTERY.

>>ANNE: BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK CHILDREN, I DON'T THINK DAD JUST MADE THAT UP AND I DIDN'T HAVE TO MAKE IT UP EITHER.

I THINK CHILDREN REALLY DO REMEMBER WHEN ADULTS GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO BE KIND TO THEM.

AND SO, I MEAN, AND THAT WAS PART OF THE, I GUESS THAT'S A KIND OF ANOTHER THEME IN LOST BIRDS IS JUST THE VALUE OF HUMAN KINDNESS.

WHICH YOU DON'T SEE A LOT IN MYSTERIES, I HAVE TO SAY.

>>LORENE: NO, NO, BUT IT IS, YOU KNOW, THE DALAI LAMA SAYS, YOU KNOW, OF ALL THE VIRTUES, YOU KNOW, REMEMBER, JUST BE KIND, JUST BE KIND.

AND IT DOESN'T COST ANYTHING.

GENEROSITY OF SPIRIT SHOULD BE A NATURAL RESPONSE, BUT IT ISN'T ALWAYS.

SO WHAT I FOUND IN THIS WAS A KIND OF ORDER OR KEY OR A TEMPLATE FOR MYSTERY SOLVING, BECAUSE YOU MADE IT SO CLEAR THAT EACH LITTLE DETAIL IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH, WHICH WAS ALL THAT THE LOST BIRD HAD TO GO BY, EXPANDED, IT WAS REALLY LIKE PULLING THE THREAD AND IT WAS A LESSON IN HOW MYSTERY WORKS FOR ME.

SO IT'S A MYSTERY, BUT IT'S ALSO THROUGH THE EXPERIENCE YOU'RE HELPING SOLVE IT.

IT'S A PATTERN FOR SLEUTHING.

>>ANNE: WELL, THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST COMPLIMENTS I'VE EVER HAD.

AND I HAVE TO JUST SAY THAT MY HUSBAND, DAVE TEDLOCK, WAS A TREMENDOUS HELP TO ME IN WRITING THIS BOOK.

DAVE HAD TAUGHT WRITING FOR A LONG TIME, HE'S JUST FINISHED HIS OWN FIRST MYSTERY.

BUT EVEN MORE THAN THAT, HE HAS READ MYSTERIES AND THRILLERS PROBABLY FOR 30 YEARS.

SO HE REALLY UNDERSTANDS KIND OF THE TEMPLATE AND THE TOOLS THAT THE BEST MYSTERY WRITERS AND THE BEST THRILLER WRITERS USE TO KIND OF MOVE THE STORY FROM BEGINNING TO END.

SO WHEN I HAD FINISHED WHAT I THOUGHT WAS A PRETTY SOLID DRAFT, I LET DAVE READ IT AND HE GAVE ME SOME REALLY EXCELLENT CRITICISM.

IT WAS NOT WHAT CAN I SAY, IT WASN'T MEAN OR VICIOUS OR ANYTHING, IT WAS VERY SUPPORTIVE AND VERY LOVING AND VERY FOCUSED ON LITTLE THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.

AND I DIDN'T TAKE EVERY POINT THAT HE MADE, BUT PROBABLY 80% OF THEM.

I REALLY GIVE HIM CREDIT, IT WAS WONDERFUL TO HAVE ANOTHER WRITER.

>>LORENE: IT WAS WONDERFUL TO HAVE A FIRST READER TO BE ANOTHER WRITER WHO REALLY ALSO UNABASHEDLY WANTED YOU TO BE SHOWN AS YOUR BEST.

>>ANNE: THAT'S RIGHT.

>>LORENE: I THINK YOU SUCCEEDED WITH THIS BECAUSE IT'S SO NICE.

WE JUST HAVE A FEW MINUTES LEFT, I'M SORRY WE DIDN'T BRING THE OTHER BOOKS BECAUSE THE COVERS ARE JUST SO WONDERFUL AND THEN ALSO THEY'RE A REALLY GOOD READ.

BUT I THINK IN THIS ONE, IT WAS QUITE AN EXPERIENCE.

I WANT TO THANK YOU, WHAT ARE YOU WORKING ON NOW, PEOPLE WANT MORE.

>>ANNE: I'M WORKING ON THE 10TH BOOK IN THE SERIES.

I DON'T, I DON'T QUITE HAVE A NAME FOR IT YET, BUT THIS IS A BOOK IN WHICH BERNADETTE MANUELITO'S SISTER, DARLENE, IS PLAYING A BIGGER ROLE.

DARLENE HAS GONE TO WORK AS SORT OF AS A HOME HEALTH AIDE WHILE SHE'S TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SHE WANTS TO DO NEXT.

AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO SHE'S WORKING WITH ENDS UP IN A SCHEME TO BASICALLY KIDNAP PEOPLE WHO HAVE ADDICTION PROBLEMS AND TAKE THEM TO FAKE SOBER HOUSES IN PHOENIX.

AND THIS STORY IS BASED ON UNFORTUNATELY, BASED ON A REAL-LIFE INCIDENT WITH A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR FRAUD SCHEME, YOU KNOW, STEALING MONEY FROM MEDICARE, FROM PEOPLE WHO REALLY NEEDED SERVICES AND WERE IN SUCH BAD SHAPE, THEY DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF DISCRETION.

ANYWAY, I'M USING THAT AS KIND OF A HOOK TO LET DARLENE HAVE A LITTLE BIGGER ROLE.

>>LORENE: GOOD, SHE'S WORKED HER WAY UP.

>>ANNE: YES SHE HAS.

AND OF COURSE, BERNIE AND CHEE ARE STILL IN IT.

AND JOE LEAPHORN IS TAKING A LITTLE VACATION FROM HIS HARD WORK IN LOST BIRDS.

>>LORENE: GOOD, GOOD.

WELL, I JUST CAN'T THANK YOU ENOUGH FOR WHAT YOU GIVE TO NEW MEXICO.

YOU GIVE NEW MEXICO HERSELF BACK, YOU KNOW IN A WAY, AND WE WHO LOVE NEW MEXICO AND NEW MEXICANS, IT'S ALL MIRRORED IN HERE.

SO IT'S A VERY SATISFYING READ.

AND FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW NEW MEXICO, WILL THINK I BETTER GO THERE AND CHECK THIS OUT.

SO THANK YOU FOR THE WORLDS YOU CREATE AND THE WORLDS YOU MIRROR AND THANK YOU FOR COMING TO TELL US ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK, WHICH I LOVE CALLED LOST BIRDS.

>>ANNE: THANK YOU LORENE.

>>LORENE: OUR GUEST IS ANNE HILLERMAN AND THANK YOU.

AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM