♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Crossley: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

I'M CALLIE CROSSLEY, HOST OF "UNDER THE RADAR," 89.7.

TONIGHT-- GEORGE FLOYD, ONE YEAR LATER.

WE, LIKE YOU, ARE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC, AND ARE TAKING PRECAUTIONS.

WE ARE WORKING WITH LIMITED STAFF, AND OUR GUESTS ARE JOINING US REMOTELY.

NEXT WEEK WILL MARK THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER ON THE STREETS OF MINNEAPOLIS AT THE HANDS OF THE NOW-CONVICTED DEREK CHAUVIN.

CHAUVIN PRESSED HIS KNEE TO FLOYD'S NECK FOR NEARLY TEN MINUTES, SNUFFING OUT HIS LAST BREATH.

FLOYD'S KILLING SPARKED A COMMUNAL OUTRAGE AND A NATIONWIDE RACIAL RECKONING, INCLUDING STREET PROTESTS, POLICE REFORM LEGISLATION, AND HEFTY CORPORATE DONATIONS TO BLACK AND BROWN ORGANIZATIONS.

BOOKS ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM AND ANTI-RACISM SOLD MILLIONS OF COPIES AS THE PUBLIC CONVERSATION ABOUT RACE AND RACISM INTENSIFIED.

BUT WHAT, IF ANYTHING, HAS REALLY CHANGED?

JOINING US REMOTELY: RENEE GRAHAM, ASSOCIATE EDITOR AND COLUMNIST FOR THE "BOSTON GLOBE;" RAHSAAN HALL, DIRECTOR OF THE RACIAL EQUITY PROGRAM AT THE A.C.L.U.

OF MASSACHUSETTS; KIM McLARIN, PROFESSOR AND GRADUATE PROGRAM DIRECTOR OF WRITING, LITERATURE AND PUBLISHING AT EMERSON COLLEGE; AND PHILLIP MARTIN, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER FOR GBH NEWS CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING.

WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU.

SO I'M GOING TO FLIP THIS SCRIPT JUST A LITTLE BIT AND START WITH HAVING EACH OF YOU IDENTIFY OR EX POUND ON ONE THING THAT ADVANCED.

I'M NOT GOING TO USE THE WORD CHANGE BECAUSE THAT SPEAKERS TO A WHOLESALE CHANGE AND PRETTY MUCH ALL OF YOU HAVE SAID YOU DON'T SEE THAT.

SO WITHIN THAT CONTEXT, HOWEVER, SOME THINGS HAVE ADAPTED, MOVED, LITTLE BIT OF AN ADVANCEMENT.

AND I WANT YOU ARE TO SPEAK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT.

AND THEN WE'LL GET TO WHY YOU THINK REALLY THERE HAS NOT BEEN WHOLESALE CHANGE.

SO RENEE, I NOTE THAT YOU POINTED TO MACRON MERRICK GARLAND, THE NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL, DO YOU SEE THAT AS AN ADVANCEMENT AS A RESULT OF THE GEORGE FLOYD RACIAL RECKONING?

>> I CERTAINLY THINK IT'S IMPORTANT.

I MEAN YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO CALL A THING A THING.

AND YOU CAN'T KEEP SORT OF TALKING AROUND THE ISSUE.

THE PROBLEM IS WHITE SUPREMACY.

SO I THINK IF ANYTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE, I'M NOT SAYING ANYTHING HAS, YOU HAVE TO AT LEAST START WITH IDENTIFYING WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.

SO I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT MERRICK GARLAND HAS SAID THAT THAT HAS BEEN SAID BY MEMBERS OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND TALKING ABOUT THE DOMESTIC TERRORIST THREAT.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT BUT I THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO ACT ON IT.

NOT JUST SAY IT BUT ACT ON IT.

THAT'S NOT NEVILLE WHAT THIS COUNTRY DOES PARTICULARLY WELL BUT THERE IS A SYMBOL OF PROGRESS AT LEAST THAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING THE TERM WHITE SUPREMACY.

>> >> Crossley: TO BLACK LIVES MATTER SOME BELIEVE PHILLIP HAS BECOME MORE MAINSTREAM SINCE THE TIME OF GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH BECAUSE OF THOSE STREET PROTESTS THAT WE TALKED ABOUT.

AND ONE THING YOU'VE NOTED IS THE RISE OF SOME NEW LEADERSHIP AS A RESULT.

IS THAT, IN YOUR MIND, A KIND OF ADVANCEMENT SINCE FLOYD'S DEATH?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN YOU HAVE IN DORCHESTER, FOR EXAMPLE, A YOUNG WOMAN NAMED CAREY MAYS WHO EMERGED FROM THIS MOVEMENT, YOU HAVE MON KAHN CANNON GRANT -- MONICA CANNON GRANT WHO HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE HAS MADE A FOCUS ON THE CITY OF BOSTON, WHERE ATTENTION MIGHT HAVE BEEN IGNORED BEFORE, IT IS NOW IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

AND THERE OF COURSE ARE ALSO OLDER LEADERS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME BUT WHO ARE BASICALLY GAINING A INFLUENCE VOICE IF YOU WILL BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING FADE ATTENTION TO.

>> Crossley: AND AS FOR YOU, RAHSAAN HALL, WHAT ABOUT A GENERAL BETTER UNDERSTANDING AND AT LEAST DISCUSSION, I RECOGNIZE ACTION IS THE SECOND PART BUT JUST A DISCUSSION ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM?

YOU KNOW WE HAVE A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS ON THIS SHOW ABOUT PEOPLE NOT ABLE TO GRASP THAT, BUT IN THE WAKE OF FLOYD'S DEATH THERE SEEMS TO BE MORE OF AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THAT MEANS.

>> I THINK FLOYD'S DEATH AND US BEING IN THE MIDST OF A GLOBAL PANDEMIC, WHERE COMMUNITIES OF COLOR AND PARTICULARLY BLACK COMMUNITIES WERE HIT THE HARDEST, IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE 1619 PROJECT, OPENED UP THE CONVERSATION, AND DISCUSSION AROUND SYSTEMIC RACISM, AND SO WHEN BLACK FOLKS WERE TAKING TO THE STREETS PROTESTING POLICE VIOLENCE THEY WEREN'T JUST PROTESTING POLICE VIOLENCE BUT THEY WERE ALSO TALKING ABOUT THE DISPARATE COVID INFECTION RATE.

THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT STRUCTURAL AND INSTITUTIONAL RACISM AND HOW THOSE IMPACTED THE COVID RATES AS WELL AS EXACERBATING THE EXISTING EDUCATIONAL GAPS AND BEING OUT FRONT SAYING THE REASON OUR COMMUNITIES ARE GOING TO SUFFER MORE FROM THIS PANDEMIC ARE BECAUSE OF GENERATIONS OF STRUCTURAL RACISM AND DENIAL AND DISENFRANCHISEMENT SO THE POLICING PROTESTS WERE JUST KIND OF THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG OF THESE LARGER STRUCTURAL ISSUES THAT WE WERE PROTESTING.

>> Crossley: SO KIM NOW YOU'VE BEEN PRETTY STRONG ABOUT BEGINNING AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS SAYING, YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT MUCH WOULD COME OF IT.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU ACKNOWLEDGE IS THAT THERE AT LEAST IS MORE OPEN CONVERSATION.

PARTICULARLY, ON THE PART OF WHITE PEOPLE, TO DEAL WITH SOME OF THE REAL ISSUES OF WHAT EQUITY IS ALL ABOUT, WHAT SYSTEMIC RACE IM-- RACISM IS ALL ABOUT AS RAHSAAN HAS SAID.

IS THAT IN YOUR MIND AT LEAST AN ADVANCEMENT IN THE WAKE OF GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH?

>> YES.

I KNEW YOU SAVED ME FOR LAST BECAUSE I'M THE LEAST OPTIMISM ABOUT REAL CHANGE COMING FROM THAT.

AND I STILL AM.

BUT I DO THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN MOVEMENT -- WELL, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY: THERE'S LESS ROOM FOR DENIAL AMONG WHITE PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES GOOD WHITE FOLKS RIGHT, WELL INTENTIONED LIBERAL FOLKS, THERE IS LESS ROOM FOR DENIAL ABOUT THE REALITY OF THINGS THAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR CENTURIES LET ALONE YOU KNOW PERSONALLY FOR DECADES, RIGHT?

YOU KNOW TEN YEARS AGO, FIVE YEARS AGO, EVEN THREE YEARS AGO, THERE WAS STILL WIGGLE ROOM FOR PEOPLE TO SAY YEAH THINGS ARE NOT BAD.

THINGS AREN'T GREAT BUT.

AND NOW I THINK THERE'S LESS ROOM FOR DENIAL.

THAT'S IMPORTANT, THE QUESTION IS OF COURSE WHAT COMES PR THAT.

BUT YOU CAN'T DRIVE THROUGH A GOOD WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD WITHOUT SEEING BLACK LIVES MATTER SIGNS IN THE FRONT YARD STILL.

MY QUESTION IS WHO IS FIRST TO TAKE THOSE SIGNS DOUBT AND WHEN?

SO I DO THINK THERE'S PROGRESS AND THERE IS OTHER PROGRESS, THE IMPORTANCE OF PROGRESSIVE PROSECUTORS.

I MEAN DA'S RIGHT, THE UNDERSTANDING OF STATE AND LOCAL POLITICS HAS BEEN REALLY VITAL.

SO I THINK THERE HAS BEEN, THERE'S DEFINITELY BEEN ADVANCEMENT BUT AS YOU SAID LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

>> Crossley: ALL RIGHT, NOW WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THE PART WHERE YOU ALL GET TO SHARE YOUR DISAPPOINTMENT.

OR JUST ANGER ABOUT WHAT HAS NOT MOVED IN A SIGNIFICANT WAY AS YOU WOULD DESCRIBE IT.

SO RAHSAAN HALL, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN YOUR WORDS A WASTED OPPORTUNITY, TO REALLY GET POLICE REFORM LEGISLATION.

THERE WAS CONVERSATION ABOUT A CHANGE, LOOKING AT WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD AND IN THE SUBSEQUENT INCIDENTS, BUT THE ACTUAL LEGISLATION ITSELF YOU SAY STILL FALLS FAR SHORT.

>> YES.

ADVOCATES WERE PUSHING FOR SO MANY THINGS.

RANGING FROM DEFUNDING OF POLICE TO THE ELIMINATION OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, TO BANNING THE USE OF CHEMICAL CROWD CONTROL AGENTS AND KINETIC IMPACT WEAPONS.

AND THE REFORM LAW HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS TOUCHED SOME OF THAT BUT ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE ACLU AND MANY OTHERS WHO WERE TAKINGS TO THE STREETS TO DEMAND FAR MORE REFORMS THAN WHAT WE SAW, AND IN CONVERSATION WITH LEGISLATORS AND LAWMAKERS TO PUSH AS FAR AS WE COULD, WERE OVERCOME BY THE POWER OF POLICE UNIONS AND BARE RHETORIC AND FEAR MONGERING.

LIMITED TO POLICE OVERTIME BUT THE REALITY IS THAT THE CITY IS OBLIGATED TO PAY THAT OVERTIME REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE BUDGET IS.

SO THAT MEANT NOTHING WHEN THEY CUT THE OVERTIME BUDGET.

REFORMS TO QUALIFIED IRM MOOUNT WHICH IS THE LEGAL DOCTRINE WHICH HOLDS POLICE ACCOUNTABLE FOR VIOLATING PEOPLE'S CIVIL RIGHTS WAS BARELY TOUCHED IN A WAY THAT WOULDN'T -- THERE'S QUESTION AS TO HOW MEANINGFUL IT WOULD BE WHEREAS A STATE LIKE COLORADO ELIMINATED QUALIFIED IMMUNITY PROTECTIONS NOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ALTOGETHER.

SO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THESE MOMENTS OF TURPITUDE FOR REFORM WE THINK ABOUT A PENDULUM WHERE IT SWINGS ONE WAY AND ON THAT UPSWING WE NEED TO GET AS MUCH AS WE POSSIBLY CAN BECAUSE WE KNOW ON THE BACK END WE'RE GOING TO SEE REGRESSIVE POLITICS AND POLICIES RATHER THAT TRY TO UNDO THE VERY THINGS THAT WERE DONE.

JUST LOOK AT WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, THE ATTEMPTS TO DISMANTLE AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE.

THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS WE DIDN'T FULLY SEE COME INTO FRUITION IN THAT MOMENT.

>> Crossley: PHILLIP YOU BELIEVE THAT THE MOVEMENT, THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT, NEEDED TO HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM DEFURNISHED THE POLICE.

BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT AS A WAY OF DEALING THE REFORMS, CHARACTERIZING WHAT REFORM WAS NEEDED THAT THAT ACTUALLY DID NOT WORK OUT SO WELL IN TERMS AND MAY HAVE IMPEENDED THE PROGRESS THAT RAHSAAN SAYS SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

>> WELL I THINK WHEN RAHSAAN TALKS ABOUT THE PENDULUM SWINGING, THAT PENDULUM WAS HELPED BY AN UNHEX SLOGAN.

THE REASON I THINK DEFUND THE POLICE IS UNHELPFUL AS A SLOGAN, WE NOTICE THAT THAT SLOGAN, MEANT IT TO BE NUANCED, IT'S NOT TAKEN AS A NUANCED SLOGAN, IT'S TAKE IN A PROFOUND WAY.

SO WHILE YOU MIGHT UNDERSTAND SOMETHING, A SLOGAN WHAT DIFFERENCE A D.A.

MAKES, IS CLEAR, YOU ARE BASICALLY ABLE TO WORK WITH THAT AND TO EXTRAPOLATE FROM THAT.

WHEN YOU SAY DEFUND THE POLICE, I'M NOT SURPRISED THAT ONLY 28% OF BLACK AMERICANS SUPPORT THAT NOTION.

BECAUSE IT'S TAKEN LIKE WITH MANY OTHER AMERICANS, AS LITERAL.

SO I THINK IT BASICALLY HAS A PROBLEMATIC IMPACT.

IT'S NOT A GOOD -- IF I WERE A MARKETER OR PR PERSON I WOULD SAY NO, THERE IS NO WAY WOULD I GO THERE, THERE IS NO WAY OF UNDERSTANDING THAT UNLESS YOU DIG VERY DEEPLY IN TERMS OF WHAT THAT MEANS FOR REFORM.

IT IS NOT HELPFUL, WAS NOT HELPFUL AND HAS SERVED BASICALLY AS AMMUNITION IF YOU WILL FOR REACTIONARY FORCES IN THE COUNTRY.

THOSE, THEY WOULD ALREADY FIND WAYS TO ATTACK THE MOVEMENT.

THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

BUT I THINK THIS ESSENTIALLY GAVE THEM MORE AMMUNITION.

AND I'M NOT SURPRISED BY THAT IPSO'S POLL RELEASED LAST WEEK, IPSO'S U.S.A.

POLL RELEASED LAST WEEK THAT ONLY 28% OF AMERICANS SUPPORT DEFUND POLICE.

>> Crossley: THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE AFTER DEREK CHAUVIN'S TRIAL, WERE RELIEVED, LIKE YOU FELT LIKE OKAY IT'S GOING TO BE TAKEN AS ONE THING BUT DOES NOT INDICATE A RETHINKING ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN WITH REGARD TO POLICE REFORM, AROUND THESE REAL ISSUES ABOUT CHOKE HOLDS, ABOUT IMMUNITY, AS QUALIFIED IMMUNITY AS HAS BEEN RAISED HERE AND OTHER ISSUES THAT HAVE REPEATEDLY BEEN RAISED BY BLACK LIVES MATTER ACTIVISTS AND OTHERS.

>> YEAH, I MEAN FIRST I'D WANT TO SAY I RESPECT MY COLLEAGUE PHILLIP MARTIN.

I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH HIM ABOUT THAT.

I DON'T THINK THAT THE SLOGAN WAS THE ISSUE, RIGHT?

I DON'T WANT TO GO TOO FAR DOWN THAT BUT I THINK SLOGAN IS NOT THE ISSUE.

THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS SUPPORT GREATER GUN CONTROL, YET WE DON'T HAVE GUN CONTROL RIGHT?

THE LEADERSHIP HAPPENS FROM THE FRONT NOT THE BACK.

NO GREAT MOVEMENT HAPPENS WHEN A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH IT.

AND DEFUND THE POLICE MEANS EXACT LID THAT.

DEFUND THE POLICE, I'M 100% IN SUPPORT OF THAT BECAUSE REFORM DOESN'T WORK.

WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO REFORM THE POLICE FOR DECADES AND THIS IS WHERE WE ARE.

WE NEED TO DEFUND.

I DO THINK THE REASON POLICE TURNED ON CHAUVIN WAS THAT HE WOULD BE CONVICTED RATHER THAN POLICING WOULD BE CONVICTED, RIGHT?

AND WHAT WE NEED IS TO CONVICT THE WAY WE POLICE PEOPLE AND ESPECIALLY PEOPLE OF COLOR IN THIS SOCIETY AND IRONICALLY THE CHAUVIN TRIAL ALLOWED POLICE GET OFF SCOT-FREE, BECAUSE CHAUVIN WAS CONVICTED.

HE NEEDED TO BE CONVICTED, HE NEEDED TO GO, BUT THE ONLY REASON IT HAPPENED AND THE ONLY REASON HIS CHIEF TESTIFIED AGAINST HIM WAS PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY WERE WORRIED, THAT THE LARGER ISSUE WOULD BE EXPELLED AND THIS GAVE -- EXAMINED AND I AGREE WITH RASHAAN, WE NEED TO PUSH THE PENDULUM AS FAR AS WE COULD, WITHOUT ENDING THAT, QUALIFIED IMMUNITY I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS.

>> Crossley: RENEE HOW DO WE LOOK AT SINCE GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER ALL OF THE MANY IT'S EVEN HARD TO COUNT HOW MANY OTHER INCIDENTS NOT AS HORRIBLE AS GEORGE FLOYD BECAUSE WE WITNESSED THAT LIVE, BUT THERE ARE MANY DEATHS OF UNARMED BLACK PEOPLE, NOT JUST BLACK MEN.

AND WE JUST KEEP COUNTING THEM.

THEY KEEP ADDING UP.

THAT'S IN THE WAKE OF HIS DEATH, SO WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT ANY MOVEMENT TOWARD UNDERSTANDING, THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM AND HAS NOT BEEN SOFD?

>> WELL, I THINK IT JUST UNDERLINES THE NEED FOR, I USE THE TERM POLICE REFORM, I AGREE WITH KIM, THIS IS BEYOND REFORM.

THERE NEEDS TO BE A RADICAL RETHINKING OF POLICING, NEWS FUNDING THE POLICE IN THE WAY YOU FUNNEL MONEY TO THE AREAS OF THE COMMUNITY THAT COULD ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE AND NOT HURT THEM.

RIGHT, YOU STILL HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE DYING.

THAT HASN'T CHANGED.

BUT WHAT YOU ALSO DON'T SEE IS THE KIND OF NATIONALITY OUTRAGE.

I FEEL LIKE PEOPLE HAVE KIND OF DROPPED BACK TO WHERE THEY WERE.

WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD WAS SO EGREGIOUS AND WE WITNESSED WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD THAT THERE WAS SORT OF NO WAY OF GETTING AROUND TO SAYING THIS IS WRONG.

THAT'S WHY SO MANY POLICE CHIEFS AND COMMISSIONERS IN THE COUNTRY WERE SO QUICK TO RUN TO THE FIRST OPEN MIC THEY SEE, AND SAY OH MY GOD, HE DID WRONG.

THAT IS EGREGIOUS.

I'M NOT SEEING THE SAME REACTION WITH SOME OF THE MORE RECENT KILLINGS WE HAVE SEEN.

I THINK THERE IS STILL A TENDENCY IN THE COUNTRY FOR PEOPLE TO BELIEVE WELL, A POLICE OFFICER SAYS I FELT MY WIFE WAS IN DANGER, HE HAS TO DO WHAT HE HAS TO DO, WE CAN'T JUDGE THE POLICE WE'RE NOT IN THAT POSITION.

I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS.

THE OTHER PROBLEM IS AND I WAS REALLY DISMAYED A FEW WEEKS AGO WHEN CONGRESSMAN JAMES CLYBURN FROM SOUTH CAROLINA SAID, HE IS NOT WILLING TO SACRIFICE THE GOOD ON THE ALTER OF PERFECT.

MEANING I'M WILLING TO COMPROMISE ON THE GEORGE FLOYD JUSTICE AND POLICING ACT, AND IF THAT MEANS GETTING RID OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY HE'S WILLING TO DO THAT.

I'M SURE MORE DEMOCRATS FEEL THE SAME WAY.

THE BILL HINGES ON LEGISLATE QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

I THINK WHAT IS REALLY UPSETTING IS THESE THINGS HAPPEN.

AND THERE'S A FEELING FOR WE'LL JUST SETTLING FOR WHAT WE CAN GET.

WE HAVE BEEN SETTLING IN THIS COUNTRY FOR CENTURIES.

WHEN DOES THAT END AND WHEN DO PEOPLE SAY THIS IS WHAT WE WANT AND WE HAVE TO GET THIS AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO COMPROMISE AND NOT GET HALF A BILL.

IF THE PENDULUM IS STILL IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION LET'S GET WHAT WE CAN OUT OF IT AND MAKE SURE THAT IS WHAT REALLY ADDRESSES THE PROBLEM AND NOT HALFWAY ACCOMPLISHES WHAT WE NEED.

>> Crossley: LET ME FOLLOW UP WITH YOU RENEE, AND ASK ABOUT THE BLACK LIVES MATTER SIGN AND THE EXPLOSION OF ANTIRACISM AND RACE AND HISTORY AND CULTURE ABOUT AFRICAN AMERICANS, THE CORPORATIONS STEPPING FORWARD WITH THESE HEFTY DONATIONS TO MAKE SURE THAT DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION IS A MAINSTAY IN THEIR ORGANIZATIONS?

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT NOW, A YEAR LATER?

>> I SEE A LOT OF IT AS BEING REALLY PERFORMATIVE.

THERE WAS A SENSE OF WE HAVE TO DO SOME.

GOING TO GET RID OF AUNT JEMIMA AND RETIRE UNCLE BEN.

WE REALIZE THAT NOW GEORGE FLOYD HAS BEEN MURDERED, THESE SYMBOLS MIGHT BE OFFENSIVE.

THAT IS REALLY USELESS.

WHAT DID THAT REALLY ACCOMPLISH?

DID THAT COMPANY DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE IN ITS BOARD ROOM?

DID IT CHANGE THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE DECISIONS?

THAT'S WHERE THE REAL WORK GETS DONE.

I REALLY HOPE BLACK PEOPLE WHO WERE CAPITALIZING OFF OF THE BLACK LIVES MATTER SIGNS, IN THE AREAS I'M IN I DON'T SEE AS MANY SIGNS UP BECAUSE FOR THEM THE MOMENT HAS PASSED, THEY DON'T NEED TO MAKE THAT STATEMENT ANYMORE.

MEANWHILE THE SAME ISSUES THAT LED TO GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH AND THE SAME ISSUES FOR THAT MATTER THAT LED TO THE DISPROPORTIONATE IMPACT OF THE PANDEMIC IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR ESPECIALLY WITH BLACK PEOPLE ARE STILL GOING ON.

I WASN'T TERRIBLY IMPRESSED BY WHAT THEY DID LAST YEAR BECAUSE THIS YEAR PROVES THERE WAS REALLY NOTHING BEHIND IT.

>> Crossley: SAME QUESTION TO YOU PHILLIP.

THE SIGNS, THE READING, THE DONATIONS.

>> I'M NOT -- I AGREE WITH RENEE IN THIS REGARD, I THINK THAT IT'S SELECTIVE AMNESIA AND IT'S HARDLY SURPRISING.

WHEN YOU HAVE A SITUATION JUST MONTHS AGO, JANUARY 6th, WHERE HISTORY IS BEING REWRITTEN AND NOW, FOLKS WHO INVADED, BEAT UP COPS AT THE CAPITOL, INVADED THE CAPITOL, BROKE WINDOWS ARE NOW BEING DESCRIBED AS VISITORS LIKE ANY OTHER VISIT TO THE CAPITOL AND YOU HAVE LARGE PORTIONS OF THE UNITED STATES BELIEVING THAT INTERPRETATION OF REALITY, IT'S HARDLY SURPRISING THAT THEY HAVE SELECTIVE AMNESIA ABOUT GEORGE FLOYD'SFLOYD'S DEATH AND THE OTHER DEATHS THAT HAVE OCCURRED AFTER GEORGE FLOYD AND A WHOLE REWRITE OF BRIONNA TAYLOR'S SITUATION, WHERE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A COP IN LOUISVILLE WRITING A BOOK WITH A WHOLE DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH BRIONNA TAYLOR AND HER MURDER.

SO IT'S HARDLY SURPRISING.

NOW AT THE SAME TIME, SOME OF THOSE BLACK LIVES MATTER SIGNS REMAIN, OF ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES, MARILYN SCHERER PHOTOGRAPHED A BLACK LIVES MATTER SIGN ON A PIER NOT FAR FROM HER HOME IN RHODE ISLAND.

REACTIONARIES HAVE NOT ONLY LOOKED AT THESE BLACK LIVES MATTER SIGNS, SOME OF THEM HAVE TAKEN THEM DOWN, HAVE ATTACKED PEOPLE, HAVE ASSAULTED PEOPLE HAVE EXCORIATED FOLKS AND PEOPLE ARE TROLLING ACROSS THE INTERNET WHERE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE PEOPLE CALLING BLACK LIVES MATTER A RACIST MOVEMENT.

SO I'M HARDLY SURPRISED THAT YOU HAVE THIS REACTION, IT'S THE VERY PENDULUM THAT RAHSAAN WAS TALKING ABOUT.

>> Crossley: OKAY.

>> I TEND TO THINK THAT PENDULUM BY THE WAY IS IN THE MIDDLE AND IT NEEDS ALL THE HELP IT CAN GET IN TERMS OF HOW WE BASICALLY FRAME OUR DISCUSSION ABOUT MOVING FORWARD.

>> Crossley: ALL RIGHT, KIM.

>> WELL, I THINK THEY SAID IT ALL.

I AGREE, I MEAN YOU KNOW, EVEN IN THE REAL DECISION IS NOT -- THE REAL TEST IS NOT WHETHER YOU HAVE A BLACK LIVES MATTER SIGN OR THE APPROPRIATE BOOKS BEHIND YOU BUT WHAT YOU DO ON A DAILY BASIS.

AND I CAN TELL YOU EVEN IN FACULTY MEETINGS AT MY BELOVED EMERSON COLLEGE, WHEN ISSUES OF YOU KNOW HIS ENTRENCHED DISCRIMINATION AND ENTRENCHED PROCESSES THAT GIVE PRIVILEGED TO SOME AND DEPRIVILEGE OTHERS, WHO IS BRINGING UP THOSE CONVERSATIONS?

IT IS STILL THE BLACK FOLKS NOT THE WHITE FOLKS.

IF YOU DON'T GO TO YOUR WORK YOUR JOB SITE AND SEE THE SYSTEMS THAT KEEP IT IN SYSTEM, I DON'T CARE HOW MANY YARD SIGNS YOU HAVE, YOU ARE NOT DISMANTLING WHITE SUPREMACY.

IT IS ALL PERFORMATIVE.

SOME OF THE SAME CORPORATIONS THAT DONATED MONEY TO BLACK AND BACKGROUND ORGANIZATIONS, DONATED MONEY TO THE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORTED THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION.

THAT IS ALL PERFORMATIVE.

I SAID A QULEERG WE WILL SEE, RIGHT, YOU KNOW, AND I'M NOT IMPRESSED.

SO I'M NOT IMPRESSED BY THE YARD SIGNS OR THE DONATIONS.

I WANT TO SEE SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE.

>> Crossley: RAHSAAN.

>> YES, I CAN'T SAY MUCH DIFFERENT THAN WHAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS SAID, YOU KNOW, I WANT TO BELIEVE IN WHITE FOLKS WHO ARE READING THESE BOOKS AND PUTTING UP THESE YARD SIGNS BUT HISTORY TELLS ME SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I THINK WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THOUGH, AND TO KIM'S POINT AND OTHERS HAVE SAID THIS AS WELL IS LIKE WHAT ARE YOU PUTTING ON THE LINE?

WHAT SACRIFICES ARE YOU MAKING?

PARTICULARLY IN LIGHT OF THE WHITE BACKLASH THAT IS COMING, TO THIS NOTION OF THE PENDULUM THAT WE KEEP REFERENCING.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO STOP IT FROM SWINGING ALL THE WAY BACK?

HOW ARE YOU ENGAGING WITH LAWMAKERS?

HOW ARE YOU ENGAGING YOUR OWN CORPORATION WHERE YOU WORK AND YOUR FAME MEMBERS, SHOWING UP TO THE PROTEST ARE ALL WELL AND GOOD BUT WHAT ARE YOU LAYING ON THE LINE?

I THINK TO THE FACT THAT THE OVERTON WINDOW HAS SHIFTED IT'S MEANINGLESS IF IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACTS ON THE GROUND FOR BLACK FOLKS.

>> Crossley: WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THAT WOULD BE NONPERFORMATIVE RENEE?

>> LET'S SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE BOARD ROOMS.

I WANT THE NOTION THAT WHITE PEOPLE WILL BE WILLING TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE IN DOING THIS WORK AND CAN'T -- YOU KNOW THE WORK CAN'T STOP TO THE POINTS WHERE YOU FEEL LIKE, THAT DOESN'T MAKE ME FEEL GOOD.

THAT'S NOT HOW ANYTHING GETS DONE.

SO I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE THAT REAL STEP AND THAT REAL EFFORT.

YOU CAN'T READ YOUR WAY OUT OF THIS.

ALL THOSE BOOKS THAT WERE ON THE BEST SELLER LIST AREN'T ON THE BEST SELLER LIST STILL.

THE POINT IS YOU HAVE TO DO THE WORK AND I CAUTION PEOPLE ALL THE TIME, WHITE PEOPLE WHO SAY I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO OR I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WAS GOING ON, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THIS WAS GOING ON.

AND WHAT YOU DO IS TREAT PEOPLE LIKE HUMAN BEINGS.

TREAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU WANT TO BE TREATED.

IT'S NOT THAT COMPLICATED.

BUT I THINK WHEN PEOPLE SIT BACK AND FEEL HAMSTRUNG SAYING OH MY GOD I FEEL OVERWHELMED, WHAT CAN I POSSIBLY DO?

I FIND THAT FRUSTRATING.

THERE IS A LOT EMOTIONAL PUT A YARD SIGN OUT.

LOOK ON YOUR SCHOOL BOARD, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RUNNING FOR OFFICE.

THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN DO IN YOUR BACKYARD OTHER THAN PUT A SIGN THERE THAT CAN ACTUALLY EFFECT CHANGE.

>> Crossley: KIM DO YOU THINK WE WILL MOVE TO SOME NON PERMATIVE ACTION?

BECAUSE GEORGE FLOYD IS STILL A MARKER TO A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> A FRIEND OF MINE CALLS IT THE GREAT WHITE AWAKENING.

THAT IT WAS A SHOCK, BUT IT IS SO -- IT IS DISHEARTENINGLY EASY, I THINK RAHSAAN SAID, FOR THIS COUNTRY TO GO BACK TO SLEEP.

IF THERE IS AN AWAKENING, WE SO QUICKLY FALL BACK ASLEEP.

YOU SHOULDN'T ASK ME THAT QUESTION, I DON'T WANT TO BE PESSIMISTIC BUT I'M SORRY TO SAY THAT, IF YOU STUDY HISTORY AND SEE THE CYCLES OF HISTORY, PROGRESS AND BACKLASH, PROGRESS AND BACKLASH, PROGRESS AND BACKLASH IT'S HARD TO KNOW, IT'S HARD TO SEE WHAT WOULD MAKE THIS TIME DIFFERENT THAN ANY TIME BEFORE.

IT'S STILL POSSIBLE.

I WANT TO BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE BUT I DON'T SEE WHAT WOULD MAKE IT DIFFERENT.

>> Crossley: ALL RIGHT, WELL, THANK YOU.

THAT'S THE END OF OUR BROADCAST, AND THE END OF OUR SHOW.

THANKS TO ALL OF OUR GUESTS AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

ALSO BE SURE TO WATCH, LISTEN AND VISIT US ONLINE AT GBH AND GBH NEWS ALL NEXT WEEK FOR SPECIAL COVERAGE ABOUT THE IMPACT OF GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH ON OUR COMMUNITIES, BEGINNING MONDAY.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org