>>> ANOTHER COURT CHALLENGE TO THE AUGUST ELECTION AND TARGETING TRANSGENDER RIGHTS.

CAPTIONS PROVIDED BY WOSU-TV, THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY >>> WELCOME TO "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

WE EXPECT OHIO VOTERS WILL GO TO THE POLLS IN AUGUST TO DECIDE WHETHER TO MAKE IT HARDER TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION.

BUT WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.

WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE IF THE ELECTION WILL TAKE PLACE, AND WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE WHAT THEY WILL READ WHEN THEY GET THE BALLOT.

OPPONENTS OF THE MOVE HAVE FILED TWO COURT CHALLENGES.

ONE SAYS THE LEGISLATURE CANNOT USE A JOINT RESOLUTION TO SCHEDULE AN AUGUST ELECTION, THAT IS NOW TECHNICALLY ILLEGAL.

THE OTHER CHALLENGE IS THE BALLOT LANGUAGE AS BEING MISLEDING.

JESSIE BALMERT, WHAT IS THE THINKING AT THE STATE HOUSE?

DO BOTH OF THESE CASES HAVE A CHANCE?

DOES ONE HAVE A BETTER CHANCE THAN THE OTHER?

WHAT'S THE SCUTTLEBUTT?

WHAT ARE THE ODDSMAKERS SAYING?

>> WELL, AT THE OHIO SUPREME COURT WE HAVE SEVEN MEMBERS, FOUR OF WHOM ARE REPUBLICAN, THREE WHO ARE DEMOCRATS.

WE HAVE A NEW SUPREME COURT CHIEF JUSTICE IN SHARON KENNEDY.

SO THIS WILL BE AN INTERESTING TEST FOR HER.

AND THEN PAT FISHER IS ANOTHER JUSTICE WHO IS KIND OF MADE HIMSELF OUT TO BE PERHAPS LIKE THE FULCRUM OF THIS COURT.

SO WE'LL SEE WHERE HE GOES.

THIS COULD BE A 4-3 DECISION ALONG PARTY LINES, OR IT COULD BE, YOU KNOW, 5-2, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> THIS IS MAINLY ON WHETHER AFTER MAKING AUGUST ELECTIONS LARGELY ILLEGAL CAN THEY ORDER AN ELECTION WITH THIS JOINT RESOLUTION?

>> CORRECT.

SO THE OHIO LEGISLATURE IS SAYING THAT THEY HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO SET ELECTIONS AND THAT IS WHAT THEY WERE DOING IN THIS JOINT RESOLUTION.

THE OPPONENTS ARE SAYING NO, NO, NO, YOU JUST PASSED A BILL THAT WAS ELIMINATING AUGUST ELECTIONS IN BOTH CIRCUMSTANCES, AND SO WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH SOMETHING THAT YOU JUST PASSED.

THE LAWMAKERS POINT TO THIS 1970s SUPREME COURT DECISION AND THE FOLKS ON THE OTHER SIDE SAY, WELL, THAT'S NOT RELEVANT ANYMORE.

>> YEAH.

WE SHOULD KNOW IN THE NEXT COUPLE WEEKS, RIGHT?

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO START VOTING, HERB, IN EARLY JULY.

>> IN THE IDEAL WORLD A SUPERMAJORITY OF THE OHIO SUPREME COURT WILL SAY THIS IS WRONG, YOU CAN'T DO IT.

BUT THERE'S A POSSIBILITY EACH OF THE FOUR REPUBLICANS WILL SEE THIS IN TERMS OF THEIR OWN PARTY'S INTERESTS AND NOT LOOK AT WHAT I WOULD CALL THE CONSTITUTIONAL OR JURISPRUDENTIAL ISSUES OR WHATEVER.

BUT I THINK IN FACT BOTH LAWSUITS HAVE MERIT, BUT I'M NOT A LAWYER.

THAT'S JUST AN OPINION.

>> BUT THE BALLOT LANGUAGE ONE GETS -- THEY COULD REWRITE IT, IT'S NO BIG DEAL, JUST HAVE A NEW QUESTION ON THE BALLOT.

THEY WOULDN'T JUST CANCEL THE ELECTION BECAUSE OF THE BALLOT LANGUAGE.

THEY WOULD GET ANOTHER BITE AT THE APPLE TO REWRITE THE LANGUAGE.

>> THEY COULD.

IT DEPENDS ON WHEN IT COMES THROUGH.

BUT I REALLY HOPE THE SUPREME COURT RULES THIS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THEMSELVES.

BECAUSE I SINCERELY BELIEVE THAT EVERY REPUBLICAN WHO VOTED FOR THIS IS GOING TO BE HIT WITH THE SAME THING THAT HIT THE DICK CELESTE DEMOCRATS WHO VOTED FOR THE 1983 TAX INCREASE WHERE EXCEPT FOR LEE FISHER DUE TO HIS OBVIOUS POLITICAL SKILLS AND FUND-RAISING ABILITY, ABLE TO SURVIVE, THE REST OF THEM HAD NO CAREERS AFTER THAT VOTE.

>> SO YOU THINK THE 60% THRESHOLD, CHANGING THE RULES IS GOING TO ALIENATE AN OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF VOTERS, REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT, INDEPENDENTS AND -- >> WHEN I WAS IN THE OHIO HOUSE I WAS RANKED SEVENTH MOST CONSERVATIVE AND I'LL TELL YOU FLAT OUT, THIS IS NOT A CONSERVATIVE POSITION.

THE CITIZENS NEED A RELIEF VALVE.

ONLY IF YOU TRUST BIG GOVERNMENT DO YOU DENY THEM A RELIEF VALVE.

AND FOR THEM TO DO THIS, THIS IS OBVIOUSLY NOT A CONSERVATIVE POSITION BY THEM.

>> AND NOT ONLY IS IT 60%, THEY'VE CHANGED THE SIGNATURE REQUIREMENTS SO YOU HAVE TO GET 5% OF THE VOTE FOR GOVERNOR IN ALL 88 COUNTIES.

BASICALLY, THEY ARE ENDING THIS CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT THAT WE'VE HAD FOR 100 YEARS.

AND I THINK WHEN CONSERVATIVES THINK ABOUT IT THEY'LL SAY OH, WAIT A SECOND, THIS REALLY MEANS MORE POWER'S GOING TO THE STATE, TO THE LEGISLATURE AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT PEOPLE HAVEN'T YET PROCESSED THAT ASPECT OF IT.

BUT IT REALLY IS MAKING THE STATE AND THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT MUCH MORE POWERFUL.

>> JESSIE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE LANGUAGE, THE ARGUMENTS LANGUAGE THAT VOTERS WILL SEE IF THIS GOES TO THE VOTE, BOTH SIDES ARE USING SPECIAL INTERESTS.

THE FOLKS WHO WANT THE 60% SAY THIS WILL PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION FROM SPECIAL INTERESTS.

BUT THE OPPONENTS ARE SAYING IT'S GOING TO BE SO HARD TO GET ON THE BALLOT THE ONLY FOLKS WHO CAN AFFORD TO DO THAT ARE BIG MONEYED SPECIAL INTERESTS.

>> YEAH.

PEOPLE REALLY DON'T LIKE SPECIAL INTERESTS.

NEARLY EVERYONE WHO WORKS ON A BALLOT CAMPAIGN IS A SPECIAL INTEREST.

LIKE YOU HAVE A SPECIAL INTEREST IN A TOPIC AND MAYBE THAT'S RAISING THE MINIMUM WAGE.

MAYBE THAT'S ABORTION ACCESS.

MAYBE THAT'S CASINOS.

THIS KIND OF LANGUAGE IS SOMETHING THE VOTERS DON'T LIKE.

BUT EVEN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING AGAINST THIS BALLOT INITIATIVE WHO ARE GETTING MONEY FROM MILLIONAIRES, BILLIONAIRES, SO THERE ARE SPECIAL INTERESTS ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS ISSUE.

>> GENE, WE'VE HAD FOLKS WHO SUPPORT THE 60% THRESHOLD WHO ALSO SUPPORT BANNING ABORTION SAY THAT THE FOLKS IN THE RURAL AREAS PROVIDE THE GRASSROOTS EFFORTS TO GET THIS PASSED AND ALSO TO WIN IN NOVEMBER.

YOU LIVE OUT IN WESTERN OHIO, RURAL AREA.

WHAT IS THE THINKING OUT THERE?

ON THE 60% RULE, FIRST OF ALL.

>> I HAVE ENCOUNTERED NOBODY.

EVEN MY NEIGHBORS AND RELATIVES, WHICH IS THE SAME THING, WHO ARE VERY MUCH ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ABOUT BEING PRO LIFE.

THEIR IMMEDIATE RESPONSE IS THIS GIVES MORE POWER TO THE GOVERNMENT.

I DON'T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT.

AND I'LL TELL YOU ABOUT THE BOND ISSUE STUFF ON THIS.

SO ON MY FIRST 45 MINUTES OF DRIVING INTO TOWN TODAY I SPENT THE WHOLE TIME ON ROADS THAT WERE BUILT AND BRIDGES THAT WERE BUILT AND PAID FOR BY OLD ISSUE TWO MONEY, BOND MONEY THAT WE WON'T BE ABLE TO ISSUE AGAIN.

AND THIS IS GOING TO REALLY DEVASTATE THE RURAL COMMUNITIES.

>> THIS IS BECAUSE ACCORDING TO THE OHIO CONSTITUTION LEGISLATURE CAN'T BORROW MORE THAN WHAT, $750,000?

YOU HAVE TO PASS AN AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION TO BORROW MORE THAN THAT.

AND NOW THOSE WILL REQUIRE 60% IF THIS PASSES.

>> WE'VE NOT HAD ONE OF THOSE PASS I DON'T THINK.

>> BUT WILL YOUR NEIGHBORS TURN OUT?

THAT'S THE QUESTION.

>> YOU KNOW, THAT IS THE QUESTION FOR THIS WHOLE THING.

BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE RECENT GUBERNATORIAL RACE THE RURAL COUNTIES HAD ABOUT 8-POINT HIGHER TURNOUT RATE THAN THE URBAN COUNTIES.

WHICH IS WHY I WAS SO TOTALLY WRONG ON MY PREDICTIONS THAT THINGS WOULD BE MUCH CLOSER.

>> IT'S A REAL WILD CARD.

>> IT WILL BE A MISERABLE TURNOUT AND TURNOUT WILL DETERMINE THE OUTCOME.

BUT THINK ABOUT THIS.

COLLEGES WILL NOT BE IN SESSION.

STUDENTS WILL NOT BE ON CAMPUS BY AND LARGE.

SO IF YOU THINK OF STUDENTS AS BEING A VOTE THAT WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO OPPOSE THIS AMENDMENT, YOU KNOW, HAVING IT IN AUGUST IS A GOOD WAY TO MINIMIZE THE IMPACT OF A STUDENT VOTE.

THERE'S SOMETHING SO CYNICAL ABOUT HAVING SUCH A MAJOR CHANGE IN THE CONSTITUTION DECIDED AT THE LOWEST POSSIBLE TURNOUT ELECTION THAT YOU COULD HAVE.

>> MIKE DeWINE CAME OUT IN FAVOR OF THIS THIS WEEK.

GUESS NOT SURPRISED HE'S HOLDING THE PARTY LINE.

HE'S VERY MUCH OPPOSED TO ABORTION RIGHTS.

>> YEAH.

I THINK HE WAS TAKING A LOT OF THE TALKING POINTS FROM THE BUSINESS GROUPS THAT HAVE SUPPORTED THIS MEASURE, SAYING THAT YOU KNOW, AGAIN, BACK TO OUR SPECIAL INTERESTS, HE DOESN'T WANT THOSE TO INFLUENCE THE OHIO CONSTITUTION.

BUT HE WAS VERY QUIET WHILE THIS WAS PASSING THROUGH THE OHIO LEGISLATURE, WASN'T A VOCAL OUT FRONT PERSON ON THIS.

SO IT'S -- I DON'T KNOW.

IT'S INTERESTING THAT HE'S NOW SAYING THIS NOW.

>> GENE, THE FIRST ONE OUT FRONT IS SECRETARY OF STATE FRANK LAROSE.

HE'S A LEADING ADVOCATE FOR THIS.

I GUESS IT'S ALWAYS A CONFLICT.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE RUNS ELECTION, SUPPOSED TO BE IMPARTIAL, BUT HE IS PLAYING A REAL ACTIVE ROLE IN THIS CAMPAIGN.

AS SECRETARIES OF STATE HAVE DONE IN THE PAST WHEN THEY'VE RUN FOR GOVERNOR OR DIFFERENT OFFICE.

>> YEAH.

AND I'VE SAID BEFORE ON THE SHOW THAT I -- I LIKE FRANK.

EVERYBODY LIKES FRANK.

BUT I THINK FRANK IS GETTING SOME ASTOUNDINGLY BAD POLITICAL ADVICE ON THIS, THAT HE NEEDS TO STEP AWAY FROM THIS.

EYES TRYING TO DIFFERENTIATE HIMSELF FROM BERNIE MARINO AND MATT DOLAN IN THE UPCOMING U.S. SENATE RACE.

HE'S NOT ANNOUNCED.

I'M NOT HERE TO ANNOUNCE FOR HIM.

BUT HE NEEDS TO STEP BACK FROM THIS.

IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO HELP HIM.

>> IT'S A HIGH RISK HIGH REWARD PERHAPS IF IT PASSES IN AUGUST THE 60%?

>> I THINK NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS FRANK'S ONE OF THE LOSERS.

HE HAD A REPUTATION FOR BEING A STRAIGHT SHOOTER, REALLY TOLD IT AS IT WAS, AND NOW YOU CAN JUST SEE AMBITION WRITTEN ALL OVER HIS FACE AND HE'S PANDERING AND HE'S TRYING TO IN FACT SAY I WANT TO BE IN THAT MIX FOR U.S. SENATE.

AND I'M NOT SURE THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT.

>> AND KEEP IN MIND IF IT'S A MAY PRIMARY WHICH THEY'RE NOW TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS THAT, SEVEN, EIGHT MONTHS AWAY FROM THE AUGUST ELECTION?

NO ONE'S GOING TO REMEMBER THAT.

>> THE OHIO STATE HOUSE IS A FRONT IN THE CULTURE WARS DIVIDING THE COUNTRY.

LAWMAKERS ARE CONSIDERING THREE BILLS THAT TARGET THE TRANSGENDER POPULATION.

ONE WOULD BAN MINORS FROM RECEIVING GENDER-AFFIRMING CARE.

ANOTHER WOULD BAN TRANSGENDER GIRLS AND WOMEN FROM COMPETING ON HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE WOMEN'S SPORTS TEAMS.

AND THE LATEST WOULD MAKE K THROUGH 12 AND PUBLIC COLLEGE STUDENTS USE THE BATHROOMS AND LOCKER ROOMS THAT MATCH THE SEX THEY WERE ASSIGNED AT BIRTH.

JESSIE BALMERT, SOME OF THESE HAVE BEEN PERCOLATING FOR A WHILE.

KIND OF A PACKAGE?

THAT'S HOW LAWMAKERS HAVE BEEN VIEWING THIS?

>> REALLY THERE HAS BEEN A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF FOCUS ON TRANSGENDER CHILDREN IN PARTICULAR IN OHIO AND THIS MUST BE AN ISSUE I DON'T KNOW, REPUBLICANS ARE LOOKING AT POLLING AND SAY DOES WELL WITH PARENTS.

THAT'S THE ONLY THING I CAN SAY AS TO WHY WE'RE SPENDING SO MUCH TIME ON IT, ESPECIALLY DURING A BUDGET SEASON WHEN WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FOCUSING ON PASSING THE MONEY TO RUN THE STATE.

I THINK THE ONE THAT'S CLOSEST TO PASSING RELATES TO ATHLETICS AND WHETHER TRANSGENDER GIRLS CAN PARTICIPATE IN FEMALE SPORTS.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WAS BROUGHT UP LAST YEAR AND WAS TABLED AFTER SOME PROBLEMATIC LANGUAGE.

SO.

>> IS IT POLLING -- THERE ARE 1.5% OF AMERICANS IDENTIFY AS NON-BINARY OR TRANSGENDER.

THERE ARE SIX ATHLETES, HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETES IN OHIO THAT IDENTIFY AS TRANSGENDER WHO PARTICIPATE ON THEIR TEAM THAT MATCHES THEIR GENDER IDENTITY.

THAT'S NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE.

>> NO.

BUT NOW, SO I WAS A COLLEGE INTERCOLLEGIATE FENCING COACH, COACHED BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.

YES, IT'S A MINOR SPORT.

OKAY?

AT A MINOR SCHOOL.

NOT TO INSULT MOTHER MIAMI.

BUT IT IS.

BUT THEY -- I COACHED THEM BOTH.

AND IF I HAD MY BEST WOMEN FACE OFF AGAINST A MEDIOCRE MAN, HE'D CLEAN HER CLOCK.

SO THE IMPACT ISN'T ON THOSE SIX BUT EVERYBODY ELSE THAT THEY FACE.

AND SINCE THEY GET MULTIPLIED AND IT GOES TO THE CORE AMERICAN ISSUE OF FAIRNESS, IS THIS FAIR?

AND THE ANSWER IS PROBABLY NOT.

AND ALSO I FOLLOWED MAYO CLINIC ON THIS AND THEY SAY IT TAKES FIVE YEARS FOR THE TESTOSTERONE TO THOROUGHLY LEAVE THE BODY.

SO IT'S GOING TO BE A LONG-TERM ADVANTAGE FOR YOUNG TRANS ON THIS.

>> BUT THE NCAA HAS RULED AS WELL AS THE OHIO HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION, THEY HAVE PROTOCOLS IN PLACE TO PROTECT THE INTEGRITY OF THEIR GAMES AND THEIR SPORTS.

>> YOU USED THE KEY WORD, CULTURE WARS.

AND THIS IS NOT SIMPLY AN OHIO ISSUE.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING NATIONWIDE.

AND WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE GROUPS OUT THERE, CONSERVATIVE GROUPS, RIGHT-WING GROUPS, WHO IN FACT ARE PUSHING THIS BECAUSE THEY SEE POLITICAL ADVANTAGE.

THEY KNOW THAT MOST CITIZENS DON'T REALLY EVEN KNOW REALLY WHAT TRANSGENDER REALLY MEANS.

SO THEY COME UP WITH ALL OF THESE HORROR STORIES ABOUT OH, MY GOD, THE BATHROOMS, COULD YOU IMAGINE YOUR DAUGHTER IN THE BATHROOM WHEN A TRANSGENDERED MAN COMES IN OR WHATEVER, OR WOMAN COMES IN?

SO IT'S REALLY SCARE TACTICS TO GAIN SUPPORT.

I THINK THE MOST LEGITIMATE ISSUE IS REALLY THE ISSUE ABOUT UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS DO YOU PROVIDE MEDICAL TREATMENT FOR PEOPLE WHO ASPIRE TO TRANSITION.

AND THERE I THINK YOU'D WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE THE APPROPRIATE DOCTORS, PARENTAL AND COUNSELORS INVOLVED.

AND YOU CERTAINLY DON'T WANT THE LEGISLATURE BECOMING THE DOCTORS OR IN THE ABORTION CASE THE LEGISLATURE BECOMING THE GYNECOLOGISTS, WHATEVER.

THEY REALLY ARE OVERREACHING ON THAT ASPECT.

IN TERMS OF SPORTS THERE IS A QUESTION OF FAIRNESS.

BUT THAT IS SUCH A SMALL NUMBER OF CASES.

BUT THAT GETS SO BLOWN UP IN TERMS OF SCARE TACTICS TO TRY TO WIN VOTES FOR THE RIGHT WING.

>> GO AHEAD, JESSIE.

>> I WOULD SAY THE PERSON TO WATCH ON THIS COULD BE OHIO GOVERNOR MIKE DeWINE.

HE'S BEEN PRETTY QUIET ON THIS ISSUE, HAS NOT BEEN OUT IN FRONT OF IT.

MOST OF THE CHANGES HIS ADMINISTRATION HAVE MADE HAVE BEEN TO PREVENT DISCRIMINATION FOR LGBTQ WORKERS, STATE WORKERS, AND SO HE'S PREVIOUSLY SAID ON THE SPORT THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S ALREADY BEING ADDRESSED AT THE HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION LEVEL.

IF THIS BILL IS DELIVERED TO HIS DESK, WHAT WILL HE DO WITH IT?

>> BACK IN 2015 AND 2016, INDIANA AND NORTH CAROLINA PASSED THEIR BATHROOM BILLS.

HUGE OUTCRY.

THEY CANCELED CONCERTS.

THEY THREATENED TO MOVE THE FINAL FOUR OUT OF INDIANAPOLIS, I BELIEVE.

YOU DON'T HEAR THAT CORPORATE OUTRAGE THESE DAYS ON THESE ISSUES.

WHAT'S GOING ON?

>> WELL, I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE CORPORATION AND THE ISSUE.

AND I THINK THEY REALIZED THAT THERE ARE RISKS INVOLVED IN TAKING ON PARTICULARLY IN REPUBLICAN STATES WITH REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURES AND REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS, THERE REALLY ARE MAJOR RISKS HERE.

YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, I DON'T THINK THAT INTEL IS GOING TO GET INVOLVED IN ANY OF THESE ISSUES.

BUT IF THEY EVER SAID WE HAVE TO COME TO A STATE THAT IS WELCOMING OF ALL PEOPLE, THAT'S WHY WE THOUGHT WE WERE COMING TO OHIO, THAT IT WAS A WELCOMING ENVIRONMENT, BUT IF IN FACT THE ENVIRONMENT IN OHIO GETS MORE HOSTILE TO GAY, TO TRANS, TO A LOT OF OTHER GROUPS ALSO, THEN WE'RE GOING TO HAVE PROBLEMS HAVING PEOPLE MOVE FROM CALIFORNIA AND OTHER PLACES TO OHIO AND ATTRACTING PEOPLE TO STAY IN OHIO.

BUT THEY HAVEN'T GOTTEN INVOLVED IN THAT.

YOU'RE RIGHT, THEY HAVE NOT SAID THAT KIND OF THING.

>> THE PARENTAL RIGHTS THING, GENE, CONSERVATIVES WANT PARENTAL RIGHTS WHEN IT COMES TO PICKING THE CURRICULUM IN SCHOOL BUT YET THEY WANT TO NULLIFY PARENTAL RIGHTS WHEN IT COMES TO ALLYING FOR GENDER-AFFIRMING CARE FOR MINORS.

HOW DO THOSE TWO THINGS -- >> BASICALLY THE ARGUMENT AT ITS CORE IS -- WE'RE SEEING THIS PLAY OUT ALSO IN THE HIGHER ED REFORM BILLS GOING THROUGH.

IS OWNERSHIP.

WHO OWNS PRIMARY, SECONDARY EDUCATION IN OHIO, WHO OWNS HIGHER ED.

AND YOU KNOW, BOBBY BETTY BUCKEYE, THE AVERAGE CITIZEN OF THIS STATE, DOES NOT FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE ANY OWNERSHIP OF HIGHER ED, PRIMARY, SECONDARY -- >> HOW CAN YOU ARGUE PARENTS HAVE THE RIGHT TO PICK THE BOOKS BUT NOT PICK THE HEALTH CARE FOR THEIR CHILDREN?

>> BECAUSE PENDULUMS ALWAYS SWING.

THAT'S IT.

THAT'S WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO.

>> ALL RIGHT.

AS OHIO AND FEDERAL LAW STANDS NOW, 14 AND 15-YEAR-OLDS CANNOT WORK PAST 7:00 P.M. DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR.

THEY CAN WORK UNTIL 9:00 P.M. DURING THE SUMMER.

SOME LAWMAKERS WANT THEM TO BE ABLE TO WORK LATER YEAR ROUND.

A BILL WOULD URGE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO ALLOW 14 AND 15-YEAR-OLDS TO WORK UNTIL 9 P.M. DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR IF THEIR PARENTS APPROVE.

BUSINESS GROUPS LIKE THE OHIO RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION SAY THE EXTRA TWO HOURS WOULD HELP SOLVE LABOR SHORTAGES IN THE INDUSTRY.

OPPONENTS FEAR CHILDREN WILL BE EXPLOITED AND THEY ARGUE THE STATE AND THE COUNTRY SHOULD NOT WEAKEN CHILD LABOR LAWS PUT IN PLACE IN THE 1930s.

THIS IS NOT A HUGE DEAL RIGHT NOW.

TWO HOURS.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO EXTEND THE MAXIMUM HOURS THEY CAN WORK PER WEEK.

BUT SHOULD WE BE WEAKENING CHILD LABOR LAWS, GENE?

>> PROBABLY NOT.

IT'S NOT GOING TO POLL WELL.

IT'S NOT GOING TO LOOK GOOD ON A TV AD.

AND IF YOU REALLY HAVE TROUBLE RECRUITING WORKERS, YOU'VE HEARD ME SAY THIS ON THE SHOW BEFORE, OKAY, IT'S A FREE MARKET.

INCREASE THE WAGES.

AND YOU CAN DO THAT.

OKAY?

I MEAN, ON THE FARM DAD PUT ME TO WORK AT A YOUNG AGE WITH UNWIELDY SCOOP SHOVELS WITH EAR CORD AND BAILING HAY AND STRAW.

I COULD HAVE PROTESTED FOR HIGHER WAGES AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN NO SUPPER THAT NIGHT.

BUT IT COMES DOWN TO LOOK, IF YOU PAY ME ENOUGH I'LL GO OUT AND PICK APPLES.

OKAY?

YOU SEE WHAT I'M SAYING?

YEAH, YOU COULD SOLVE THIS.

BUT IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE WAYS TO DO IT.

>> THE RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION IS BEING HONEST.

THEY SAY THEY NEED LABOR AND THEY LIKE CHEAP LABOR.

SO THEY'RE BEING HONEST.

BUT -- >> THEY ALSO SAY THIS BUILDS CHARACTER.

>> THAT'S WHERE I'M GOING, TO THE OTHER THING.

WELL, THIS IS REALLY GOOD, IT'S GOING TO BUILD CHARACTER, YOUNG PEOPLE WILL BE WORKING EXTRA TWO HOURS A DAY.

THAT'S NONSENSE.

I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR LABOR AND WE KNOW THAT A THE LO OF PEOPLE LEFT THE MARKET -- LEFT THE LABOR FORCE AND NOW HAVEN'T COME BACK.

WELL, I THINK GENE'S RIGHT.

WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED TO BRING THEM BACK?

MAYBE HIGHER WAGES, BETTER BENEFITS.

MAYBE YOU NEED BETTER CHILDCARE FOR THOSE WOMEN WHO HAVE LEFT THE WORKFORCE AND CAN'T COME BACK NOW BECAUSE THEY HAVE CHILDREN TO TAKE CARE OF.

BUT THE NOTION THAT SOMEHOW THIS IS GOING TO SOLVE A MAJOR PROBLEM, IT WILL GIVE SOME INDUSTRIES CHEAP LABOR AND IF THEY'RE HONEST ABOUT IT -- AGAIN, LUCKILY THE PARENTS HAVE TO AGREE TO THAT TOO.

>> PARENTAL RIGHTS AGAIN, JESSIE.

DOES THIS HAVE A CHANCE OF PASSING?

>> IT'LL BE INTERESTING.

THE OHIO SENATE JUST RECENTLY PASSED A MEASURE THAT WOULD REDUCE THE AGE OF -- FOR POLICE OFFICER APPLICANTS FROM 21 TO 18.

SO YOU DO SEE THIS SHIFT TOWARD YOUNGER AND YOUNGER WORKERS.

AND AS THE STATE HAS ONE OF ITS RECORD LOW UNEMPLOYMENT RATES, I BELIEVE 3.7%, THERE IS LIKE A NEED FOR WORKERS.

BUT THERE'S OTHER WAYS OF GETTING THERE.

>> IT WASN'T JUST -- IT'S A DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFT.

THERE ARE FEWER PEOPLE WORKING AGE, PERIOD.

>> YOU WAIT TILL 2026 AND THEN IT'S GOING TO HIT HIGHER ED HARD BECAUSE WE'RE SHORT NATIONWIDE LIKE HALF A MILLION 18-YEAR-OLDS.

BECAUSE NO BABIES WERE BORN AFTER 2008-2009 BECAUSE OF THE GREET RECESSION THERE FOR A WHILE.

AND SO YEAH.

>> ALL RIGHT.

TWO MORE REPUBLICANS THIS WEEK JOINED THE RACE FOR THEIR PARTY'S NOMINATION FOR PRESIDENT.

SENATOR TIM SCOTT OF SOUTH CAROLINA AND FLORIDA GOVERNOR RON DeSANTIS OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED THEIR CAMPAIGNS.

THAT BRINGS TO SEVEN THE NUMBER OF REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES IN THE PRIMARY FIELD.

OF COURSE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP TOPS THE LIST.

WHILE TRUMP EASILY BEAT DEMOCRATS IN OHIO IN 2016 AND 2020, THE STATE COULD PLAY A ROLE PERHAPS IN THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION FIGHT.

HERB ASHER, WHO WOULD OHIO VOTERS -- THEY LOVE TRUMP.

BUT IS THERE ANYBODY ELSE THEY MIGHT CONSIDER IF THEY DON'T GO WITH TRUMP?

>> NOT YET.

AND IN PART YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE RULES THE REPUBLICANS USE TO SELECT DELEGATES TO THEIR CONVENTION.

UNLIKE THE DEMOCRATS THAT HAVE PROPORTIONAL ALLOCATION OF DELEGATES, TYPICALLY IN MOST STATES THE REPUBLICANS HAVE WINNER TAKE ALL.

SO ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS COME IN FIRST IN THE PRIMARY AND YOU GET ALL OF THE STATE'S DELEGATES.

SO DONALD TRUMP HAS TO BE REALLY HAPPY RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THE MORE REPUBLICANS THAT ENTER THE RACE THE MORE THE VOTE IS SPLIT.

SO IF HE ONLY GETS 35% OF THE VOTE BUT HE COMES IN NUMBER ONE HE GETS ALL THE DELEGATES.

SO I THINK RIGHT NOW THE RULES OF THE GAME FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY REALLY BENEFIT DONALD TRUMP.AND THE MORE CANDIDATES THAT JOIN THE BETTER OFF HE IS.

>> RON DeSANTIS, JESSIE, HAS BEEN IN OHIO A FEW TIMES IN RECENT MONTHS.

SEEMS TO BE WORKING HARD AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL, LOCAL REPUBLICAN SUPPORT LEVEL.

DOES HE HAVE A CHANCE?

WILL ANY STATEWIDE OFFICE HOLDER IN THIS STATE SAY I'M FOR RON DeSANTIS AND NOT DONALD TRUMP?

>> PROBABLY NOT THIS EARLY.

BUT I BELIEVE RON DeSANTIS GOT A PRETTY WELCOME RECEPTION WHEN HE WAS IN AKRON AND THEN IN SOUTHWEST OHIO WHEN HE MADE HIS TRIP HERE.

BUT HE'S REALLY TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, THREAD A THIN NEEDLE HERE.

PEOPLE WHO MAY BE UPSET ABOUT TRUMP ENCOURAGING VACCINE USE, FOR EXAMPLE, OR SUPPORTING KEVIN McCARTHY IN THE SPEAKER FIGHT, BUT THAT'S JUST -- IT'S A VERY TINY PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TO TRY TO GET OVER THAT OVERWHELMING THRESHOLD.

>> TRUMP'S PERSONALITY STILL DOMINATES OHIO REPUBLICAN POLITICS.

>> YES.

PERSONALLY, I PREFER A MORE OPTIMISTIC CANDIDATE LIKE TIM SCOTT, JOHN SUNUNU, WHO PROBABLY WILL ANNOUNCE, ASA HUTCHINSON.

BUT I'LL ALSO TELL YOU THAT I HAVE TO AGREE WITH HERB ON THIS ONE, THAT IT'S JUST GOING TO BE A REAL -- THE DONOR CLASS WILL HAVE TO STEP IN I SAY RIGHT AFTER NEW HAMPSHIRE OR IOWA, SOMEWHERE THROUGH THERE, AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TELL ALL THE ALSO RANS OKAY, WE'RE GOING TO GO WITH THAT PERSON AND PUT ALL THEIR CHIPS BEHIND THAT PERSON TO GO OFF AGAINST TRUMP.

BECAUSE I'LL TELL YOU, AFTER JANUARY 6th ABOUT A QUARTER OF MY REPUBLICAN BASE WILL NOT VOTE FOR TRUMP UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

HE'S STILL GOT 75% OF MY FOLKS.

BUT THERE'S A QUARTER OF US WHO GO NO, ABSOLUTELY UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WILL WE VOTE FOR TRUMP ON A BALLOT.

>> THAT'S WHAT WE'RE WAITING FOR.

IN 2016, HERB, WE ALL THOUGHT THE ANTI-TRUMP CANDIDATE, THE MORE MAINSTREAM REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE WOULD EMERGE, THAT THE DONOR CLASS, THE ESTABLISHMENT WOULD COALESCE BEHIND ONE CANDIDATE.

IT NEVER HAPPENED.

JOHN KASICH HAD DREAMS IT WAS GOING TO BE HIM.

>> SURE.

WELL, ONE THING IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS CHANGED.

AND THAT IN FACT AT THE CITIZEN LEVEL, AT THE MASS LEVEL A LOT OF THE REPUBLICANS THAT WE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF AS MODERATE CONSERVATIVES, TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVES, THEY MAY NOT HAVE BECOME DEMOCRATS.

THEY HAVEN'T DONE THAT.

BUT THEY REALLY HAVE LEFT THE PARTY IN THE SENSE THAT THEY NOW SAY I CAN VOTE INDEPENDENT, OR I CAN CALL MYSELF AN INDEPENDENT.

THEY DIDN'T LEAVE THE PARTY, THE PARTY LEFT THEM.

SO WHAT YOU REALLY NOW HAVE IS A BASE FOR REPUBLICANS THAT IS FAR MORE CONSERVATIVE AND FAR MORE RIGHT WING AND MUCH MORE LIKELY TO SUPPORT SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

>> AND SMALLER.

>> YEAH.

>> WHICH IS BAD FOR US BECAUSE IT'S A BIG TENT -- THE BIGGEST TENT USUALLY WINS.

>> EXCEPT RIGHT NOW THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS THE U.S. HOUSE AND PROBABLY IS FAVORED TO WIN THE SENATE NEXT YEAR AND A GOOD CHANCE TO WIN THE PRESIDENCY.

SO A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T SAY IT'S BAD.

AND THEY'RE SAYING WE CAN CONTINUE TO GO TO THE RIGHT AND STILL PULL OUT THESE ELECTIONS.

AND YOU KNOW, MAYBE, MAYBE NOT.

BUT IT'S -- YOU AND I WOULD AGREE THAT A SHRINKING BASE IS NOT A VERY SMART MOVE.

BUT LOOK.

LOOK AT OHIO RIGHT NOW.

>> AND AN OLDER BASE.

>> THE OTHER WILD CARD, JESSIE, IS TRUMP'S LEGAL PROBLEMS.

HE'S GOT -- HE'S UNDER INDICTMENT IN NEW YORK FOR THE HUSH MONEY.

HE WAS FOUND RESPONSIBLE FOR SEXUAL ASSAULT.

AND THEN WE STILL HAVE THE GEORGIA ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE WHICH COULD COME OUT, YOU KNOW, JULY OR AUGUST OF THIS SUMMER.

>> YEAH.

TO SAY THE OBVIOUS, IF HE'S ARRESTED OR CONVICTED THAT WOULD BE A PROBLEM FOR HIS PRESIDENCY.

BUT THE MERE ALLEGATIONS OF THESE CHARGES, THE MERE INDICTMENTS DON'T SEEM TO BE HAVING AN IMPACT ON THAT REPUBLICAN BASE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

>> YEAH, IT ACTUALLY HELPED HIM AFTER THE INDICTMENT.

>> AT LEAST THAT CORE 35% THAT HE WOULD NEED TO WIN PRIMARIES IN STATES, YEAH, THEY DON'T HEAR THESE THINGS ABOUT HIM OR DON'T BELIEVE IT OR SAY SO WHAT, OR THEY ALL DO IT.

>> DO ANY REPUBLICANS CAMPAIGN HERE IN OHIO?

>> YES.

>> BEFORE THE PRIMARY.

>> YES.

>> THEY DON'T JUST GIVE IT TO TRUMP AUTOMATICALLY?

>> NO.

LIKE I SAID, I'VE GOT THREE.

AND KEEP IN MIND, CHRIS CHRISTIE IS GOING TO -- AND I CAN'T TAKE CREDIT FOR THIS.

IS GOING TO LIGHT TWO STICKS OF DYNAMITE AND RUN TOWARD ARE YOU TRUMP TO HUG HIM WITH THE DYNAMITE.

THIS IS NOT TO BE INTERPRETED AS VIOLENCE OR ANYTHING, BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT VERBAL DYNAMITE.

AND IT WILL BE -- CHRIS CHRISTIE, HE'S A FORMER PROSECUTOR.

I DON'T WANT TO FACE HIM IN A DEBATE.

>> ALL RIGHT.

LET'S GET TO OUR FINAL OFF THE RECORD PARTING SHOTS.

AND GENE KREBS, YOU'RE UP FIRST.

>> SO ONE OF THE REASONS THAT CENTRAL OHIO HAS SO MANY NICE THINGS IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE A LARGE, VERY BIG CIVIC CAPACITY.

ONE OF THE REASONS YOU HAVE SUCH A BIG CIVIC CAPACITY, YOU'RE ABLE TO COME TO AGREEMENT ON ISSUES, ONE OF THE MAIN MECHANISMS FOR THAT HAS BEEN THE THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR JAMES SCOTT HAS RETIRED AFTER 20 YEARS OF VERY GOOD AND ABLE SERVICE.

I WISH HER WELL AND HER HUSBAND CHRIS IN WHATEVER SHE CHOOSES TO DO NEXT.

BUT THAT IS A KEY ASPECT OF WHY INTEL CHOSE TO COME HERE, IS BECAUSE YOU ALL GET ALONG.

AND IF YOU DON'T YOU FAKE IT.

>> HERB.

>> GOVERNOR DeWINE HAS APPOINTED TWO WONDERFUL NEW TRUSTEES IN BRAD CAST AND GEORGE SGETSOS JR. >> FOR LSU?

>> FOR LSU BOARD OF TRUSTEES.

AND I THINK IT WILL BE HELPFUL TO THE BOARD.

IT WILL HELPFUL IN THE PROCESS IN WHICH WE SELECT A NEW PRESIDENT.

>> AND JESSIE.

>> MY CO-WORKER LAURA BISHOFF REPORTED TWON INMATES WHO ESCAPED FROM A LIMA-AREA PRISON AND THEY HAD A 27-HOUR HED START WHICH I IMAGINE WE'LL HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT GOING FORWARD.

>> YES.

ANDY DEFREIGHT ONLY HAD ABOUT EIGHT HOURS IN SHAWSHANK.

COLUMBUS METROPOLITAN SCOTT, SHE HAS BEEN A TREMENDOUS PERSONAL FRIEND AND A TREMENDOUS FRIEND TO WOSU IN HER 20 YEARS AT THE METROPOLITAN CLUB.

AND HOCKEY FANS YOU HAVE TO LOVE SERGEI BOBROVSKY.

IN THE NHL STANLEY CUP FINALS WITH A CHANCE TO WIN THAT CUP HE LEFT COLUMBUS FOR.

GOOD LUCK TO I AM HAD.

THAT'S "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ONLINE, WATCH US ANYTIME AT OUR WEBSITE AND THE PBS VIDEO APP.

FOR OUR CREW AND OUR PANEL I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.

-- Captions by VITAC -- www.vitac.com S