FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS  LIKE YOU.

Gene: THIS WEEK, A PLUNGE  INTO THE ANTI-CRIME INFRASTRUCTURE AND EDUCATION  LEGISLATION MOVING THROUGH THE CAPITOL.

Brunner: AND, YOU HAVE LOTS OF PEOPLE LIVING AMID AN AWFUL  LOT OF NATURAL GAS WELLS AND THOSE NATURAL GAS WELLS HAVE A  LONG HISTORY, DOCUMENTED HISTORY, OF LEAKING.

Gene: ENVIRONMENTAL IMPLICATIONS IN THE PUSH TO  MAKE OUR STATE A HUB FOR HYDROGEN PRODUCTION.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

THE LARGEST BUDGET IN STATE  HISTORY IS MOVING FORWARD IN SANTA FE.

THE PROPOSAL IS ADVANCING TOWARDS A HOUSE FLOOR VOTE AND  CALLS FOR NEARLY EIGHT-AND-A-HALF BILLION  DOLLARS IN SPENDING.

WE ARE GOING TO DIG THROUGH  WHAT ALL OF THAT MONEY WILL GO TOWARDS.

INCLUDING, A PACKAGE OF NEW ANTI-CRIME INITIATIVES LIKE AN  OFFICE TO HELP PREVENT GUN VIOLENCE AND MONEY FOR POLICE  DEPARTMENTS AROUND THE STATE.

ALL OF THAT ON TOP OF THREE  NEW BILLS AIMED AT BETTER DETERRING AND PUNISHING  CERTAIN CRIMES.

LET'S GET TO THE LINE.

WELCOME TO OUR THREE LINE PANELISTS THIS WEEK.

WE ARE JOINED BY REBECCA LATHAM, CEO OF GIRL SCOUTS OF  NEW MEXICO, ATTORNEY SYLVIA MARTIN AND ED PEREA, GREAT TO  SEE YOU ALL VIRTUALLY ANYWAY AS WE TAPE ON THIS SNOW DAY  THIS WEEK.

MONEY IS CLEARLY THE WEAPON  THE STATE HOPES DOES THE MOST DAMAGE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST  CRIME.

MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ARE TABBED  FOR POLICE DEPARTMENTS AROUND THE STATE.

BOTH FOR PAY RAISES AND EXPANDED RECRUITING.

A RECENT STUDY FROM THE LEGISLATIVE FINANCE COMMITTEE  SUGGESTS THAT STATE IS FAILING TO CREATE THE CERTAINTY OF  ARRESTS SHOWN TO CREATE A SIGNIFICANT DETERRENT CRIME.

IS ADDRESSING THAT FACT A MAIN PRIORITY FOR THE GOVERNOR AND  LAWMAKERS?

SOPHIE, LET ME TOSS THAT TO  YOU.

IT IS A VERY COMPLICATED  QUESTION BUT START BROADLY.

WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHT THERE?

Sophie: CLEARLY CRIME IS A TOP PRIORITY FOR THE GOVERNOR  IN THIS SESSION.

I MEAN, REMEMBER THAT WE ARE  IN ONE OF THOSE YEARS WHERE THE FOCUS OF THE LEGISLATURE  IS PRETTY TIGHT AND THAT THE GOVERNOR CAN ASK FOR  ADDITIONAL INITIATIVES BEYOND SORT OF THE ECONOMIC, BUT SO  WHEN YOU SAY MONEY IS A TOOL, WELL, THIS IS THE MONEY  SESSION, RIGHT?

SO, WE WOULD EXPECT THAT.

BUT, THERE IS QUITE A LOT COMING FORWARD AND COMING  FORWARD A LOT OF IT FROM DEMOCRATS WHICH I THINK MAKES  SENSE, GIVEN THE GOVERNOR'S PRIORITIES.

AND IT COVERS A BROAD RANGE OF AREAS FROM, YOU KNOW, ON ONE  END LOOKING AT PRETRIAL DETENTION AND WHAT IS  HAPPENING UNDER THAT CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT THAT  WAS APPROVED SEVERAL YEARS AGO, TO PROTECTION OF JUDGES  IN NEW MEXICO AND TRYING TO KEEP CRIME FROM DIVERTING THE  JUDICIAL PROCESS OVERALL.

WE HAVE A LOT TO LOOK AT THIS  YEAR.

Gene: IT IS GOING TO START  TO PARSE OUT HERE THIS WEEK AND THIS WEEKEND AND NEXT  WEEKS.

IT WILL BE VERY BUSY FOR SURE.

ED, INCLUDED IN HOUSE BILL 152 IS A ONE-TIME PAYMENT OF  10 MILLION TO BERNALILLO COUNTY AND SOME OF THAT MONEY  HAS BEEN QUOTED GOING TOWARDS BEHAVIORAL HEALTH ISSUES AND  THE COUNTY TELLS KRQE SPECIFICALLY IT WOULD FUND  TRAINING FOR OFFICERS TO BETTER RESPOND TO MENTAL  HEALTH CRISES.

ALSO FUND MORE HEALTH CLINICS.

WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS A LONG TIME IN THE COUNTY AND  VOTERS APPROVED MONEY FOR THIS SOME YEARS AGO AND IT HASN'T  BEEN SPENT.

IS THIS THE RIGHT SCHOOL OF  THOUGHT WHEN IT COMES TO FINDING LONG-TERM SOLUTIONS TO  THE CRIME PROBLEM?

Edmund: THERE IS MULTIPLE  PARTS TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES WITHIN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE  SYSTEM AND THOSE THAT SUPPORT IT.

DEFINITELY MENTAL HEALTH,  BEHAVIORAL HEALTH.

THOSE ARE CRITICAL ISSUES WHEN  YOU LOOK AT DATA THAT I HAVE SEEN OUT THERE THAT A HUGE  PERCENTAGE, I AM THINKING IN THE AREA 60 TO 70% OF THOSE  INCARCERATED HAVE SOME MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES.

I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THOSE KIND OF NUMBERS, THAT IN  ITSELF IS TELLING YOU THE STORY, THAT IF YOU'RE ABLE TO  REDUCE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES THAT LEAD TO CRIMINAL  BEHAVIOR, IT MAY HAVE AN OVERALL REDUCTION IN CRIME.

I THINK THAT IS -- I DON'T WANT TO SAY IT IS A GOOD START  BECAUSE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT OUR COMMUNITY AND COMMUNITIES  ACROSS THE STATE AND COUNTRY HAVE BEEN WORKING ON AND  REALIZE THAT IS A PROBLEM.

THIS IS JUST ANOTHER PIECE  THAT I THINK WILL HELP CONTRIBUTE TO OUR EFFORTS TO  START TO REDUCE CRIME.

I THINK IT IS A POSITIVE STEP.

Gene: REBECCA, INTERESTINGLY THERE IS A  CONTROVERSIAL TWEAK TO THE PRETRIAL DETENTION PROCESS.

WE TALKED ABOUT THAT A LOT HERE ON THE SHOW.

IT HAS MADE IT THROUGH ONE COMMITTEE DESPITE SOME  SKEPTICISM THE BILL WOULD FORCE DEFENDANTS TO PROVE THEY  AREN'T A DANGER TO SOCIETY WHEN REQUESTING PRETRIAL  RELEASE.

THIS IS A BIG ONE FOR SOME  FOLKS AND ESPECIALLY FOR CONSERVATIVES.

IS THIS TOO MUCH OF A RISK GIVEN IT COULD BE RULED  UNCONSTITUTIONAL ESPECIALLY?

Latham: WELL, I THINK ITS  IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THIS IS A BIPARTISAN BILL SO THEY ARE  WORKING CLOSELY TOGETHER TO TRY AND GET AHEAD AND  ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE ARE SOME CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES  WITH THIS BILL AND EVEN GOING  SO FAR AS TO SAYING POTENTIALLY MAKING A  CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TAKING IT TO THE VOTERS SO IF  THEY MAKE CHANGES TO THE PRETRIAL DETENTION THAT IT HAS  A MUCH MORE BETTER CHANCE OF ACTUALLY LASTING.

WHATEVER THEY COME UP WITH, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE  HUGE PACKAGES OF CRIME BILLS AND A LOT OF THEM ARE ABOUT  INCREASING PENALTIES FOR THIS OR THAT, LARGER DETERRENTS,  BUT IN NEW MEXICO CATCH AND RELEASE IS A HOUSEHOLD TERM,  NOT LIKE TINGLEY BEACH CATCH AND RELEASE.

WE TALK ABOUT CATCH AND RELEASE FOR DANGEROUS  CRIMINALS.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS  WIDELY KNOWN IN NEW MEXICO.

IT IS NOT JUST US THAT ARE  TALKING ABOUT IT, IT IS CRIMINALS KNOW THERE IS NO  TEETH AND THEY GET IN AND RIGHT BACK OUT AGAIN.

I HEARD RAUL TORREZ SPEAK ABOUT A YEAR-AND-A-HALF AGO  AND HE GAVE A PARALLEL TO PARENTING A TODDLER.

IF YOUR TODDLER DOES SOMETHING THEY KNOW IS BAD AND YOU SAY,  OKAY, I AM GOING TO PUNISH YOU AND TAKE THE TOY AWAY AND YOU  COME BACK 10 MONTHS LATER AND TRY TO PUNISH THE TODDLER FOR  THAT DEFENSE, IT DOESN'T WORK.

THAT IS NOT HOW PARENTING  WORKS AND THAT IS NOW HOW CRIMINAL JUSTICE SHOULD WORK.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE ACKNOWLEDGE THERE ARE SOME  OTHER THINGS OUT THERE BUT I THINK WE HAVE GOT TO FIND AND  PRESSURE LEGISLATORS TO FIND SOLUTIONS THAT WILL WORK RIGHT  NOW.

Gene: REBECCA, LET ME KEEP  YOU HERE FOR A QUICK SECOND.

IS THE IDEA OF STRICTER GUN  LAWS YOU JUST MENTIONED, GUN POSSESSION CHARGES,  ESPECIALLY, IS THIS A MEANINGFUL DETERRENT?

THIS IS A BIG DEBATE OVER YEARS THAT CRIMINALS REALLY  DON'T CARE WHAT THE DETERRENCE IS TO HAVING A GUN, THEY JUST  WANT A GUN FOR WHATEVER REASON.

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON THAT?

Latham: NEVER HAVING BEEN  CHARGED WITH A CRIMINAL GUN  THING, I CAN'T SPEAK FOR EVERYONE BUT TO ME IT FEELS  LIKE WHAT GOOD IS THE LARGER PENALTY, WHAT GOOD IS THE  STRICTER PENALTY IF THEY DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO STICK,  YOU KNOW?

IF THEY DON'T THINK THAT THERE  IS REALLY A DANGER THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE ARRESTED AND  PUT INTO JAIL AND SEPARATED FROM THEIR FAMILIES AND ALL OF  THE THINGS THAT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM -- THE PENAL  SYSTEM WAS SET UP TO DETER, THEY DON'T THINK THEY ARE  GOING TO GET CAUGHT, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE, A  FIRST DEGREE THIS OR A FOURTH DEGREE THAT, IF IT IS NOT  GOING TO STICK, PERSONALLY, I DON'T THINK IT IS ENOUGH OF A  DETERRENT BUT THAT IS JUST ME.

Gene: THAT IS WHY WE HAVE  YOUR PERSONAL OPINION.

SOPHIE, INTERESTINGLY THE  MOVEMENT IN RECENT YEARS ON POLICE REFORM, I AM VERY  INTERESTED IN YOUR OPINION ON THIS.

ARE ANY OF THESE MEASURES -- HOW MUCH OF DEMOCRATS HERE  LOCALLY ARE LEANING INTO THAT AT THIS POINT UNDER THIS IDEA  THAT WE ARE NOW TACKLING CRIME?

DO THOSE TWO THINGS FIT TOGETHER?

Sophie: I THINK THEY DO AND ACTUALLY THE BILL THAT ED WAS  TALKING ABOUT EARLIER REGARDING MENTAL HEALTH  SUPPORT AND SUPPORT OF OUR SOCIAL SERVICES AND BEHAVIORAL  HEALTH, I THINK THAT IS ACTUALLY A SIGNAL.

IT DOES INCLUDE TRAINING FOR POLICE OFFICERS AND SO IT  FEELS TO ME LIKE THAT IS PART OF A MOVEMENT TOWARD, YES,  INTERVENTION IN HOW POLICING HAPPENS, HOW POLICING WORKS  WITH A MORE NUANCED VIEW OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE  CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

I AM NOT 100% SURE I ANSWERED  THE QUESTION BUT I DEFINITELY THINK THAT BILL IN PARTICULAR  IS GEARED TOWARD A NUMBER OF WHAT REFORMERS ARE TRYING TO  GET TO.

Gene: ED, SAME QUESTION.

YOU KNOW.

DEFUND POLICE, LET'S PUT IT  OUT THERE, ALL THE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN OUT IN THE PUBLIC'S  PURVIEW FOR A LONG TIME, THEN WE DO THIS BIG TURNAROUND AND  IT'S TIME TO GET TOUGH ON CRIME AND I AM SAYING THIS,  THIS IS HOW SOME PEOPLE HEAR THIS OUT THERE, SO TO SPEAK.

AGAIN, SAME QUESTION TO SOPHIE.

HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THOSE TWO THINGS.

Edmund: I THINK WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT DEFUNDING THE  CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND POLICE, I THINK YOU NEED TO DEFINE TERMS  EXACTLY WHAT THAT MEANS.

POLICE NEED RESOURCES TO DO  THEIR JOBS TO BE EFFECTIVE TO DO THEIR JOB, AND DEFUNDING IN  IT ITS PURE TERM TO TAKE MONEY AWAY IS SOMETHING THAT I AM  SURE A LOT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES WOULD REJECT BECAUSE  IT THEN DOESN'T ALLOW THEM TO DO THE WORK THEY ARE TASKED TO  DO WHICH BRINGS UP A QUESTION, WHAT ARE THEY TASKED TO DO?

AND SOMETIMES THEY ARE BEING OVERTASKED, SO WE NEED TO  CONTINUE TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT LAW ENFORCEMENT IS  EXPECTED TO DO AND CREATE A BALANCE AND MAYBE CONTINUE TO  PARSE OUT SOME OF THOSE TASKS AND I THINK MAYOR KELLER AND  HIS TEAM HAS CREATED THIS COMMUNITY SERVICE AGENCY THAT  HAS TRIED TO DO JUST THAT, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO CRIME  PREVENTION, I THINK THERE IS A BALANCE.

CRIME PREVENTION IS A KEY COMPONENT.

IF WE ARE EFFECTIVE AT PREVENTING CRIME, THERE REALLY  ISN'T MUCH NEED FOR ENFORCEMENT AND PROSECUTION,  SO, PREVENTION IS GOING TO BE A KEY COMPONENT.

FOLLOW THIS PREVENTION, INTERVENTION, ENFORCEMENT AND  PROSECUTION, THE MORE WE PREVENT THE LESS WE NEED  RESOURCES ON THE OTHER END.

BUT RIGHT NOW WE ARE IN A  PICKLE BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T DONE A GREAT JOB.

Gene: REBECCA, GIVE YOU THE LAST CUT AT THIS.

I AM CURIOUS KIND OF LOOKING AHEAD A LITTLE BIT, IS THERE A  DANGER FOR DEMOCRATS IF WHAT GETS PASSED OUT OF THIS  SESSION JUST ISN'T TOUGH ENOUGH FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

Latham: WE ARE SEEING AN INFLUX OF NON-NEW MEXICANS  MOVING INTO NEW MEXICO BECAUSE THEY SEE THAT WE ARE A  SUPERIOR STATE TO LIVE IN AS FAR AS QUALITY OF LIFE GOES  AND SO, LIKE IT OR NOT, THEY ARE COMING FROM OTHER PLACES  OUTSIDE OF NEW MEXICO AND THEY WILL REGISTER TO VOTE HERE AND  IF THEY, AS WELL AS THOSE OF US WHO HAVE LIVED IN THE STATE  AND BEEN BORN AND RAISED, LIKE OVERWHELMINGLY WE WILL GET TO  A POINT IF WE HAVEN'T ALREADY GOTTEN THERE, THAT LAWMAKERS,  ELECTED OFFICIALS WILL BE CALLED TO TASK FOR NOT  FIGURING THIS OUT.

WE HAVE HAD THIS CRIME  PROBLEM, THIS IS NOT NEW.

AND, ULTIMATELY, AS WE SEE  EVEN IN LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD ELECTIONS RECENTLY, LIKE BIG  FLIPS.

WE WILL SEE FLIPS ACROSS THE  BOARD IF THE PUBLIC FEELS LIKE IT IS NOT BEING ADDRESSED  EFFECTIVELY.

Gene: GOOD POINT THERE.

THANK YOU ALL TO THE LINE PANELISTS.

IN LESS THAN 10 MINUTES WE'LL DISCUSS A PACKAGE OF PROPOSALS  AIMED AT MAKING PUBLIC EDUCATION MORE EQUITABLE FOR  NATIVE AMERICAN STUDENTS.

Brunner:   MORE OFTEN THAN NOT THESE DAYS IT IS A STATE  BY STATE COMPETITION.

YOU KNOW, COMPANIES WANT TO  LOCATE IN A PLACE WHERE THEY HAVE THIS INFRASTRUCTURE IN  PLACE, WE TALK TO BUSINESS OWNERS ACROSS THE STATE THAT  SAID OUR LACK OF BROADBAND IS INHIBITING THEIR GROWTH AS A  BUSINESS.

Gene:   A PUSH FROM GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM TO MAKE  NEW MEXICO A LEADER IN HYDROGEN HIT A BIT OF A SNAG.

THE HOUSE ENERGY AND RESOURCES COMMITTEE VOTED TO TABLE THE  HYDROGEN HUB DEVELOPMENT ACT.

THE BILL WOULD CREATE AND  INCENTIVIZE HYDROGEN DEVELOPMENT AND STORAGE HERE  IN NEW MEXICO.

NOW, ONE OF THE GOALS IS TO REVITALIZE FOSSIL FUEL  FACILITIES IN A LONG-TERM SWITCH TO MORE RENEWABLE  ENERGY, BUT IS THERE ENOUGH SCIENCE BEHIND THESE PROMISES.

ENVIRONMENTAL CORRESPONDENT, LAURA PASKUS, TALKS WITH A  JOURNALIST WHO HAS BEEN COVERING THESE ISSUES FOR  YEARS.

HERE IS LAURA AND JERRY  REDFERN FROM CAPITAL & MAIN.

Laura: HYDROGEN HUB, WHERE  IS THIS IDEA COMING FROM?

IT JUST SEEMED LIKE ALL OF A  SUDDEN THERE WAS ALL THIS TALK AROUND HYDROGEN, HYDROGEN,  HUBS, LIKE, WHY?

Redfern: THAT IS A PRETTY  GOOD QUESTION, BECAUSE I THINK AGAIN THERE ARE A COUPLE OF  DIFFERENT ANGLES THAT ARE COMING TOGETHER IN DEALING  WITH THIS.

I THINK, WELL, THE MAIN REASON  IS IN JOE BIDEN'S FIRST OF HIS BUILD BACK PLANS, HE OFFERED  UP A BILLION, WITH A B, DOLLARS TO BUILD UP TO FOUR OF  THESE HYDROGEN HUBS AROUND THE UNITED STATES.

AND, YOU KNOW, OUR LEGISLATORS IN WASHINGTON AND THEN FOLKS  BACK AT THE ROUND HOUSE IN SANTA FE SAW THAT AND SAID,  OH, HEY, WE CAN DO THAT.

WE SHOULD STEP UP AND DO THAT  SORT OF THING.

THE OTHER SIDE OF IT IS THAT  HYDROGEN AS A FUEL ON THE GLOBAL SCALE IS REALLY SEEN IN  MANY QUARTERS AS A REPLACEMENT FUEL FOR, SAY, REGULAR  GASOLINE OR DIESEL FUEL IN HEAVY MACHINERY AND  MANUFACTURING PROCESSES WHERE YOU CAN TURN THESE VERY, VERY  DIRTY MANUFACTURING PROCESSES INTO MUCH MORE GREEN THINGS.

AND THAT IS SEEN AS BEING VERY IMPORTANT GLOBALLY.

SO, PEOPLE DO WANT TO GET THIS HYDROGEN GOING.

THE BIG QUESTION IS HOW AND WHERE AND THEN THE OTHER THING  THAT GOES ALONG WITH THAT IS THAT AT LEAST IN THE UNITED  STATES, FOR SURE AT THIS POINT, IT TAKES A FAIR BIT OF  SUBSIDIES TO MAKE IT PROFITABLE FOR BUSINESSES TO  DO THIS.

SO, ALL OF THESE THINGS SORT OF WORK TOGETHER  TO POINT TO NEW MEXICO.

Laura: IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE  WHEN YOU BURN IT AS A FUEL IT IS CLEAN BUT LIKE THE  PRODUCTION OF MAKING THE HYDROGEN IS MAYBE NOT SO  CLEAN.

AM I GETTING THAT RIGHT?

Redfern: THE MAIN CONCERN IS THE PIPELINE THAT GETS  NATURAL GAS INTO A THING LIKE A POWER PLANT OR TO A  DISTRIBUTION CENTER BECAUSE OF PROBLEMS NEW MEXICO  HISTORICALLY AND CONTINUES TO HAVE WITH LEAKS AND SUCH FROM  NATURAL GAS PRODUCTION FROM THE WELL TO THE PRODUCTION  FACILITY.

Laura: I WONDER IF, YOU  KNOW, IF YOU HAVE HEARD CONVERSATIONS AROUND WINNERS  AND LOSERS WHEN IT COMES TO HYDROGEN, LIKE MAYBE THERE ARE  WINNERS WHO GET TO USE THAT CLEANER FUEL BUT LOSERS ON THE  PRODUCTION END IN TERMS OF INCREASED NATURAL GAS  PRODUCTION OR EMISSIONS OR HAVE YOU HEARD CONVERSATIONS  LIKE THAT AT ALL?

Redfern: YEAH.

ABSOLUTELY.

THESE SORTS OF EXTERNALITIES  THAT ARE INVOLVED, IN PARTICULAR, WITH NATURAL GAS  PRODUCTION HAVE ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE UP IN THE SAN JUAN  BASIN, IN PARTICULAR, VERY NERVOUS AND UNHAPPY ABOUT THE  PROSPECT OF THIS SHOWING UP IN THEIR BACKYARD.

I MEAN, THE SAN JUAN BASIN HAS BEEN ECONOMICALLY DEPRESSED  FOR SEVERAL YEARS AND I THINK THAT A LOT OF, SHALL WE SAY,  ECONOMICALLY IN THAT NECK OF THE WOODS WHICH TENDS TOWARD  NATURAL GAS PRODUCERS AND PEOPLE AFFILIATED WITH THOSE  THINGS, THEY ARE EXCITED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF RESTARTING  THE WHOLE NATURAL GAS INDUSTRY UP THERE AND GETTING IT  CHUGGING ONCE AGAIN, BUT THE PROBLEM IS, IF YOU DRIVE  AROUND UP THERE, YOU SEE QUICKLY YOU HAVE LOTS OF  PEOPLE LIVING AMID AN AWFUL LOT OF NATURAL GAS WELLS AND  THOSE NATURAL GAS WELLS HAVE A LONG HISTORY AND DOCUMENTED  HISTORY OF LEAKING AND THAT CREATES GLOBAL CLIMATE ISSUES,  BUT IT ALSO CREATES HEALTH ISSUES FOR PEOPLE THE PEOPLE  WHO LIVE RIGHT THERE ON THE GROUND AND THOSE PEOPLE THAT  LIVE ON THE GROUNDS, THOSE FRONT LINE COMMUNITIES ARE  MANY, MANY OF THEM ARE NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT EXCITED  ABOUT HAVING THAT START UP AGAIN IN FORCE.

Laura: THE GOVERNORS HYDROGEN HUB DEVELOPMENT ACT,  CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THAT BILL WAS AND WHAT WE SAW HAPPEN  WITH THAT LAST WEEK?

Redfern: WE SHOULD SAY WAS  WITH AN ASTERISK AND I AM TAKING THAT SORT OF  BACKWARDLY.

IT WAS UP FOR DEBATE IN HOUSE  SESSION, WHICH WHERE IS THESE THINGS NORMALLY START AND  AFTER MERELY FOUR HOURS OF BACK AND FORTH TALK ABOUT IT,  WHICH WAS KIND OF INTERESTING, I'LL GET BACK TO THAT IN A  SECOND, LEGISLATORS DIDN'T ACTUALLY KILL IT OUTRIGHT,  THEY TABLED IT, WHICH DOES ALLOW THE POSSIBILITY IT COULD  BE REWRITTEN, REJIGGERED OR BROUGHT BACK UP FOR DEBATE  DOWN THE LINE, BUT SINCE WE HAVE THIS VERY COMPRESSED  SESSION DEVOTED TO MONETARY ISSUES, THAT LOOKS PROBABLY  UNLIKELY, SO, PUT THAT TO THE SIDE FOR NOW.

IT IS PROBABLY DEAD BUT WE DON'T KNOW IF IT WILL COME  BACK LIKE SOME SORT OF HYDROGEN ZOMBIE.

THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

Gene: THANKS TO  ENVIRONMENTAL REPORTER LAURA PASKUS AND JERRY REDFERN FROM  CAPITAL & MAIN.

YOU CAN WATCH LAURA'S FULL  INTERVIEW ONLINE RIGHT NOW, JUST SEARCH FOR OUR LAND ON  OUR FACEBOOK PAGE.

NOW, TURNING TO EDUCATION,  LEGISLATORS IN SANTA FE ARE CONSIDERING NEW STRATEGIES IN  RESPONSE TO THE 2018 YAZZI MARTINEZ LAWSUIT.

A JUDGE ORDERED THE STATE TO MAKE PUBLIC EDUCATION MORE  EQUITABLE FOR MINORITIES, PARTICULARLY NATIVE AMERICAN  STUDENTS.

A TRIO OF BILLS WOULD POUR  70 MILLION-DOLLARS INTO CHANGING LESSON PLANS AND  CREATING MORE PROGRAMS FOR NATIVE STUDENTS.

AFTER ALL OF THIS TIME, ED PEREA, DO THESE BILLS GO FAR  ENOUGH?

VERY SIMPLE QUESTION TO START  US OFF.

Edmund: NO.

IS THE SHORT ANSWER.

DO THEY GO FAR ENOUGH, THERE  IS SO MUCH MORE THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE IN THE MARTINEZ YAZZI  LAWSUIT, REALLY.

I WAS A MEMBER OF THE MARTINEZ SIDE THAT HELPED FACILITATE  THE LAWSUIT AND SO I AM VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE ISSUES THAT  CAME UP AS A RESULT OF THIS LAWSUIT.

AND I KNOW THE YAZZI TEAM HAS BEEN DONE AN EXCEPTIONAL JOB  ON THEIR END TRYING TO PROMOTE THE NEEDS OF THE INTERESTS OF  NATIVE AMERICANS AND I THINK THAT IS HIGHLY CRITICAL.

I  THINK WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT AND MAXIMIZE OUR  EFFORTS TO DO THAT.

THERE IS HOWEVER THE MARTINEZ  SIDE THAT WE REALLY NEED TO PLACE A FOCUS ON AS WELL IN  THIS LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

WE ARE HEARING A LOT ABOUT THE  YAZZI PIECE AND THE MONIES AND REVENUES AND FUNDING THAT IS  GOING INTO NATIVE AMERICAN NEEDS, WHICH IS CRITICALLY  IMPORTANT, DON'T WANT TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM THAT, BUT  NOT HEARING AS MUCH FROM THE MARTINEZ SIDE.

THERE ARE CRITICAL NEEDS ON THE MARTINEZ SIDE AS WELL,  THAT IS BEING OVERSHADOWED.

I WOULD ENCOURAGE THE  LEGISLATURE TO CONTINUE TO WORK TOGETHER TO COLLABORATE  SO THE NEEDS OF ALL NEW MEXICO ON BOTH SIDES OF THE LAWSUIT  ARE MET, ESPECIALLY EDUCATION IS A CRITICAL NEED.

THERE IS FUNDING ON THE YAZZI PIECE TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE  SPECIAL EDUCATION NEEDS OF TRIBAL LANDS BUT OUTSIDE OF  TRIBAL LAND, THERE ARE MANY SPECIAL EDUCATION NEEDS AS  WELL THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED.

AND WE COULD GO BACK TO THE CRIME AND CRIME PREVENTION  ISSUES.

THESE ARE ALL CRIME  PREVENTION, PUBLIC SAFETY MEASURES AS WELL.

SO I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR A LITTLE MORE FROM THE THOSE  LEGISLATIVE MARTINEZ PROPONENTS AND A FEW THINGS  BROUGHT FORWARD THAT ARE GOING TO SUPPORT THE MARTINEZ SIDE  OF THAT LAWSUIT, AS WELL.

THE SHORT ANSWER, IS IT  ENOUGH?

NO.

MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE.

Gene: ABSOLUTELY.

REBECCA, INTERESTINGLY STATE REPRESENTATIVE LENTE, A  DEMOCRAT FROM SANDIA PUEBLO, HE SAYS IT IS MORE THAN  THROWING MONEY AT THE PROBLEM.

HE IS BEHIND THE THREE BILLS,  BY THE WAY, HOUSE BILLS 87, 88 AND 90.

HE SAYS THE LEGISLATION WAS STRATEGICALLY CRAFTED TO  PRIORITIZE AREAS OF NEED.

IS IT WORTH THE DELAY KNOWING  THIS WAS THE APPROACH WHEN DRAFTING THESE BILLS IN THE  FIRST PLACE?

Latham: I THINK IT IS  IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT HE PUSHED SOME BILLS IN THE LAST  SESSION THAT DIDN'T GO VERY FAR AND HE IS TAKING OWNERSHIP  AND SAYING, I LEARNED A LOT FROM THAT.

I DIDN'T DO ENOUGH TO BUILD A FOUNDATION.

BUT I REALLY HAVE TO APPLAUD REPRESENTATIVE LENTE FOR  ACKNOWLEDGING THE FACT THAT WE CANNOT JUST THROW MONEY AT A  PROBLEM AND EXPECT IT TO CHANGE.

I DO PERSONALLY FEEL LIKE THIS IS THE RIGHT DIRECTION TO GO.

TO ED'S POINT TO ADDRESS THIS SPECIFIC STUDENT GROUP.

I FEEL LIKE IF THE STATE WERE BEST EQUIPPED TO PROVIDE  CULTURALLY APPROPRIATE EDUCATIONAL STANDARDS FOR  NATIVE AMERICAN CHILDREN, THE STATE WOULDN'T BE IN THIS  POSITION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THESE ARE CULTURAL THINGS WE  HAVE TO EMPOWER OUR NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES TO DO ITS  BEST FOR THEIR STUDENTS, BUT ALSO WITH THAT BEING SAID, IT  IS NOT RESPONSIBLE TO JUST SAY HERE IS MONEY AND LET US KNOW  HOW IT ALL WORKS ON OUT OR TO ED'S POINT, WAIT 20 YEARS TO  SEE IF ANYTHING HAS CHANGED AND THEN, OH, WE CAN POINT  BACK TO THIS.

I WOULD CAUTION LENTE -- JUST  THE LEGISLATURE IN GENERAL, TO TRY TO HAVE SOME LEVEL OF  STANDARD OF WHAT THE AGREEMENT IS.

HE MENTIONS THERE WILL BE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE STATE  AND BETWEEN THE TRIBAL COMMUNITIES AND WE HAVE SEEN  IN THE PAST SOMETIMES THAT HAPPENS WHERE EVERY TRIBAL  COMMUNITY HAS A DIFFERENT AGREEMENT.

SO I WOULD SUGGEST THAT WE JUST LOOK AT A STANDARD ACROSS  THE BOARD.

THIS IS WHAT WE EXPECT AND  THIS IS HOW THE CHILDREN WILL BENEFIT AND THESE ARE METRICS.

HAVING THAT BE STANDARDIZED TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY SO  WE CAN REALLY MEASURE IT.

Gene: INTERESTING POINTS  THERE AND, SOPHIE, LET ME PUT SOME NUMBERS.

REPRESENTATIVE LENTE SAYS IT IS MORE THAN MONEY BUT THERE  IS A LOT OF MONEY CONNECTED TO THESE EFFORTS.

IN HOUSE BILL 87, WE APPROPRIATE 20 MILLION FROM  THE STATE'S GENERAL FUND TO INDIAN EDUCATION ACT TO  PROVIDE EDUCATIONAL FUNDING FOR THE TRIBES STARTING IN  2024, TO CREATE CULTURAL PROGRAMS.

NOW, HOUSE BILL 88 WOULD APPROPRIATE 21.5 MILLION TO  HELP TRIBAL EDUCATION DEPARTMENTS DEVELOP LEARNING  PLANS AND SUCH, AND THAT WOULD TAKE PLACE IN 2024.

HOUSE BILL 90 HAS A PRICE TAG OF 29.6 MILLION TO FOUR STATE  COLLEGES AND THREE TRIBAL COLLEGES FOR 53 INITIATIVES  SUCH AS BUILDING NATIVE AMERICAN TEACHER PIPELINE,  WHICH IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE LEVELS OF  MONEY IS THAT WHAT WE ARE SAYING HERE?

THE LEVELS OF  MONEY ARE MATCHED TO A NEED, IS THAT APPROPRIATELY PUT?

Sophie: LET ME START WITH THIS.

IT IS NOT ENOUGH MONEY.

I APPRECIATE THAT THE  LEGISLATURE IS WORKING WITH WHAT I AM SURE THEY THINK THEY  HAVE GOT, BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GENERATIONS OF  UNDERFUNDING THAT WE ARE TRYING TO -- THAT WE ARE  HOPING TO OVERCOME.

SO SOMETHING LIKE 20 MILLION,  30 MILLION, THIS IS A DROP IN THE BUCKET, I THINK, COMPARED  TO THE NEED.

NOW, IT WILL FUND SOME REALLY  IMPORTANT INITIATIVES.

THE IDEA OF BUILDING A  PIPELINE OF NATIVE AMERICAN EDUCATORS IS HUGE.

WILL THERE NEED TO BE MORE MONEY TO SUSTAIN THAT AND  SUPPORT IT, YEAH.

I MEAN, EVEN TO THE EXTENT  THAT SOME OF THESE FUNDS ARE RECURRING FUNDS, YOU KNOW,  LOOKING TO BUILD CAPACITY, ET CETERA, WE CAN'T SORT OF THINK  TO OURSELVES AT THIS MOMENT, THREE AND DONE.

RIGHT?

TO ED'S POINT WE HAVE AN  ENTIRE ADDITIONAL SECTION OF THE POPULATION THAT WE NEED TO  FOCUS ON, THE MARTINEZ SIDE OF THE SUIT, BUT ALSO I REALLY  FEEL LIKE THIS IS SMALL GIVEN THE SCALE OF THE PROBLEM AND I  APPLAUD REPRESENTATIVE LENTE FOR GETTING THE BALL ROLLING  BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO ASSUME THAT THERE IS A LOT MORE TO  COME IN ORDER TO SUSTAIN AND BUILD UPON ANY ADVANCES THAT  HAPPEN OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS AS A RESULT OF THIS  FUNDING.

Gene: ED, TO SOPHIE'S  POINT, REPRESENTATIVE PATRICIA ROYBAL CABALLERO, A DEMOCRAT,  SHE SAID THE VERY SAME THING.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GETTING  AFTER GENERATIONS OF INEQUITY HERE WITH THIS MONEY AND I AM  DON'T WANT TO SPEAK FOR HER, CERTAINLY, BUT IT CAN ONLY BE  SEEN AS MAYBE THE BEGINNING OF SOMETHING MORE, BUT MONEY  ISSUES ARE ALWAYS PROBLEMATIC.

HOW DO WE WIND OUR WAY THROUGH  THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW MUCH IS TOO MUCH, HOW MUCH IS NOT  ENOUGH.

IT IS A TRICKY ONE.

Edmund: THAT IS RIGHT.

GOING BACK TO REBECCA'S POINT,  WE NEED SOME MATRIX TO DETERMINE WHETHER WHAT WE ARE  DOING IS EFFECTIVE OR NOT.

BECAUSE I AGREE WITH THE  OTHERS, WE CAN'T THROW MONEY AT A PROBLEM BUT WHAT ARE THE  MATRIX.

WHAT ARE THE DELIVERABLES, WHAT DO WE HOPE  TO ACCOMPLISH AND HOW CAN WE MEASURE IT.

WE CAN'T MEASURE IT IN ONE GENERATION BECAUSE THIS ISN'T  A SINGULAR GENERATIONAL ISSUE.

IT IS A MULTI-GENERATIONAL  ISSUE.

I HAD A CONVERSATION A WHILE  BACK AND WE WERE DISCUSSING THE LAWSUIT AND TALKING TO THE  PRESIDENT OF THE ORGANIZATION AT THE TIME AND REMINDED HER  THAT THE CONVERSATION THAT HER AND I WERE HAVING IS A  CONVERSATION THAT I REMEMBER IN HIGH SCHOOL WAY BACK,  DECADES BACK.

WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT THE SAME PROBLEMS OVER  AND OVER AGAIN BUT WHAT ARE WE DOING?

SO YOU WANT TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT NOT THROWING MONEY AT  THE ISSUES AND MAKE IT CLEAR WE HAVE CLEAR THAT WE HAVE A  CLEAR DELIVERABLE MATRIX TO IDENTIFY WHETHER WE HAVE -- IF  WE ARE IMPROVING IN THE VARIOUS AREAS.

AND IF WE ARE NOT, WE NEED TO CHANGE THINGS UP.

SO, YEAH, I THINK WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO LOOK AT HOW  FUNDING IS BEING APPROPRIATED AND MAKE SURE IT IS NOT A  ONE-TIME THING, THAT THIS CONTINUES TO GO ON,  REOCCURRING YEAR AFTER YEAR TO ENSURE WE ARE MOVING FORWARD  WITH THE SHORTCOMINGS WE HAVE IN OUR EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM.

Gene: REBECCA, ON THE SENATE SIDE OF THINGS WE HAVE  A MEMORIAL, FOR WHAT THAT IS WORTH OUT THERE NOW, I MEAN,  WHICH ASKS THE STATE PUBLIC ED DEPARTMENT TO DEVELOP A  COMPREHENSIVE PLAN TO ADDRESS THE NEEDS OF THE STUDENT  GROUPS TIED TO YAZZI MARTINEZ.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, WE HAVE JUST  GOT A MINUTE HERE, THE ANNUAL REPORT TO THE LEGISLATURE  ABOUT THE PLAN, DOES THAT RING YOUR BELL APPRECIABLY?

A PLAN  IS A PLAN BUT -- Latham: I ACTUALLY HAVE  THAT HIGHLIGHTED AND CIRCLED WITH A FROWNY FACE ON MY NOTES  BECAUSE, A SENATE MEMORIAL IS SYNONYMOUS WITH UNFUNDED  MANDATES.

ANY MEMORIAL, UNFUNDED MANDATE.

WE WANT THIS DONE BUT WE ARE NOT GOING TO PUT THE RESOURCES  BEHIND IT.

IF IT IS SOMETHING THEY  THOUGHT NEEDED TO BE DONE, THEY SHOULD HAVE MADE IT A  BILL AND PUT SOME APPROPRIATIONS BEHIND IT.

I THINK IT IS DISCOURAGING.

IT IS CONCERNING THAT THESE  THREE SPECIFIC BILLS ARE THE ONLY BILLS ADDRESSING YAZZI  MARTINEZ IN THE SESSION RIGHT NOW, IN A SESSION WHERE WE ARE  SUPPOSED TO BE TALKING ABOUT MONEY BUT ALSO OTHER THINGS  TOO.

I THINK IT IS, AGAIN,  UNREALISTIC TO THINK THAT THE SENATE WOULD -- THEY WERE  GOING TO HAVE A MEMORIAL AND THEN ASK YOU TO PUT TOGETHER A  PLAN BUT WE ARE NOT GOING TO PROVIDE THE RESOURCES TO DO IT  AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO PROVIDE YOU THE EXPERTISE TO  DO IT AND YOU NEED TO COME BACK EVERY YEAR AND REPORT ON  THE PLAN THAT WE DIDN'T FUND IS GOING AND WHERE IS THE  EXECUTION BEHIND THE PLAN?

I WILL ADMIT, I AM A FAN OF  PLANS BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF THROWING MONEY AT  SOMETHING AND NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO WITH IT OR  WHAT IT COSTS BUT THIS SEEMS LIKE A GESTURE AND WE ARE NOT  GOING TO THINK IT THROUGH.

Gene: THANK YOU ALL FOR  THAT DISCUSSION.

THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING.

WE'LL CHECK BACK WITH YOU ONCE MORE TO TALK ABOUT HOW NEW  MEXICO IS INVOLVED IN AN INVESTIGATION INTO FALSE 2020  ELECTION CERTIFICATES FILED IN FAVOR OF DONALD TRUMP.

FIRST A PIECE OF MY DISCUSSION WITH TERRY BRUNNER, SOMEONE  AROUND GOVERNMENT SPENDING FOR DECADES, AS MANY OF US KNOW.

HIS NONPROFIT CALLED PIVOTAL NEW MEXICO JUST RELEASED A  STUDY THAT DETAILS THE SHORTCOMINGS OF OUR RURAL  INFRASTRUCTURE AND SYSTEMIC ISSUES THAT CONTINUALLY STAND  IN OUR WAY WHEN WE TRY TO SECURE FUNDING FOR NEW  IMPROVEMENTS.

INTERESTINGLY  WHAT THE -- THE THEME THAT COMES OUT IN THIS REPORT IS  THERE IS A LOT OF ISSUES HERE, DEFERRED MAINTENANCE ISSUES,  THE FACT WE HAVE NOT INVESTED IN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE FOR TOO  LONG AND NOW WE'RE PLAYING CATCH UP.

I REALIZE A LOT OF FOLKS WILL GET HUNG UP ON THE COSTS OF  THESE THINGS.

SO I WANT TO START SOMEWHERE  PHILOSOPHICALLY.

IT IS A SITUATION WHERE WE CAN  EITHER PAY TO CATCH UP OR PAY FOREVER TO NEVER CATCH UP,  ISN'T IT?

NOW IS THE TIME TO STRIKE IT  SEEMS TO ME.

THIS IS WHAT THE REPORT IS  SAYING.

Brunner: YEAH, YOU HAVE THE  MONEY NOW TO MAKE A GIANT IMPACT ON THE DEFICIT WE HAVE  IN A SENSE IN BROADBAND AND WATER AND SEWER.

SO, YEAH, YOU'LL NEVER QUITE ALWAYS CATCH UP BECAUSE THINGS  NEED TO BE REPAIRED AND EVERYTHING, BUT WE HAVE NOT  BEEN STRATEGICALLY ON TOP OF TAKING CARE OF ALL THESE NEEDS  IN THE PAST DECADE OR SO, SO WE HAVE A BIT OF A LAG.

Gene: THE REPORT MAKES AN INTERESTING CASE THAT IF YOU  PUT DOWN A DOLLAR YOU GET BACK A BUNCH MORE DOWN THE ROAD  WITHIN 20 YEARS.

THAT IS NEWS TO MOST PEOPLE  WHEN IT COMES TO INVESTMENTS.

Brunner: YOU MEAN THAT THE  INVESTMENT PAYS ITSELF OFF IN THE LONG RUN?

Gene: RIGHT.

Brunner: EXACTLY.

ALL OF THE STUFF WE TALK ABOUT IN INFRASTRUCTURE ARE REALLY  THE BUILDING BLOCKS BEHIND A SUCCESSFUL EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM,  PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM, YOU KNOW, ECONOMY, ALL THOSE TYPES  OF THINGS.

WHEN YOU'RE NOT DEPLOYING  THESE NEEDS AT THE RATE YOU OUGHT TO, YOU'RE TAKING AWAY  FROM THE POTENTIAL TO HAVE THAT GROWTH BUT IF YOU  CONFIGURE THESE SYSTEMS IN A SMART FASHION, YOU'RE GOING TO  REAP A RETURN ON THEM.

Gene: TALK ABOUT THE  LEGISLATURE.

OBVIOUSLY THEY'LL HAVE A HEAVY  HAND IN HOW THIS ALL WORKS OUT.

GOVERNOR LUJAN GRISHAM ANNOUNCED FORMER ALBUQUERQUE  MAYOR, MARTY CHAVEZ, IS NOW THE INFRASTRUCTURE CZAR OF A  SORT.

CURIOUS YOUR OPINION ON THE  NEED FOR THAT -- IS THAT APPROPRIATE WAY TO GO TO HAVE  ONE PERSON AT THE TOP OF IT, OVERSEEING OR IS THERE A  BETTER WAY?

WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF IT SO  FAR.

Brunner: WHAT WE CALLED FOR  IS HAVING A COMMITTEE LED BY THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE THAT IS  CONSTITUTED -- CONSISTS OF THE HEADS OF AGENCIES TO TALK  ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE BUT GIVEN THAT WE ARE IN THIS KIND OF  EMERGENCY OR LAST RAPID DEPLOYMENT OF INFRASTRUCTURE  FUNDS, I THINK THE GOVERNOR'S ASSEMBLED KIND OF AN ALL-STAR  TEAM TO COME IN AND HELP, SO, NOBODY KNOWS MUNICIPAL  INFRASTRUCTURE BETTER THAN MAYOR CHAVEZ.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE MIKE HAMMOND, FORMER DIRECTOR OF  THE BUREAU OF RECLAMATION, BIANCA ORTIZ WERTHEIM, WHO IS  SENATOR UDALL'S FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF.

THEY HAVE A NEW BROADBAND DIRECTOR FROM THE STATE OF  ILLINOIS.

I THINK THE GOVERNOR HAS BEEN WISE TO  BRING IN THESE EXPERTS TO HELP DEPLOY THESE FUNDS, BUT IN THE  LONG-TERM, REALLY, WHAT WE CALL FOR IS FOR THE EXECUTIVE  OF THE STATE, THE GOVERNOR, TO CONVENE A GROUP THAT IS  MEETING ON A REGULAR BASES TO HACK OUT ALL THE DIFFERENT  INFRASTRUCTURE ISSUES WE HAVE.

Gene: ONE OF THE LINES HERE  THAT REALLY CAUGHT MY EYE AND SHOULD CATCH ANYBODY'S EYE IF  THEY READ THIS REPORT, AND I ENCOURAGE OUR VIEWERS TO DO  SO, WE'LL HAVE A LINK IN THE THREAD BELOW.

THERE WAS A BUSINESS ROUNDTABLE AND THE  INFRASTRUCTURE STUDY FOUND THAT FOR EVERY DOLLAR INVESTED  IN INFRASTRUCTURE, DELIVERS $3.70 IN ECONOMIC GROWTH OVER  20 YEARS WHEN FACTORING IN HOUSEHOLD INCOME AND OTHER  ECONOMIC INDICATORS.

THAT TO ME SEEMS LIKE, IF YOU  ARE GOING TO THINK LONG-TERM, HOW DO YOU PASS THAT UP?

RIGHT?

Brunner:   YEAH, I DON'T KNOW HOW WE PASS IT UP.

WE ARE NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT WHEN YOU DO AN  INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECT, YOU'RE HIRING PEOPLE TO DO THE  CONSTRUCTION, THEY ARE BUYING SUPPLIES IN THE LOCAL  COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE DOING ALL SORTS OF GOOD.

AND, I THINK THE PROBLEM IS INFRASTRUCTURE IS JUST NOT A  SEXY TOPIC AND NOT FOREFRONT ON PEOPLES' MINDS SO IT OFTEN  GETS LEFT BEHIND.

AND, IT IS MORE OFTEN THAN NOT  THESE DAYS, STATE BY STATE COMPETITION.

COMPANIES WANT TO LOCATE IN A PLACE WHERE THEY HAVE THIS  INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE.

WE TALK TO BUSINESS OWNERS  ACROSS THE STATE THAT SAID OUR LACK OF BROADBAND IS  INHIBITING THEIR GROWTH AS A BUSINESS.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE WANT ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, WE HAVE  GOT TO HAVE BROADBAND THAT IS COMPETITIVE.

AND RIGHT NOW WE ARE THE LEAST COMPETITIVE STATE WITH OUR  BROADBAND.

Gene: ONE OF THE  DIFFICULTIES, I AM SURE YOU GUYS HAVE TALKED ABOUT, IS HOW  DO YOU GET ALL LOCAL AGENCIES ONBOARD AND GOING IN THE SAME  DIRECTION, BECAUSE YOU HAVE OTHER ENTITIES OUT THERE LIKE  PRC, THEY ARE GOING TO BE CRITICAL IN ALL THESE  DECISIONS.

WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF HOW YOU'RE TO GET EVERYBODY  IN THE WOMB, SO TO SPEAK, AND GETTING MOVING IN THE SAME  DIRECTION IN NEW MEXICO?

Brunner: THAT ALL COMES  DOWN TO LEADERSHIP.

SOMEBODY IN THE STATE HAS TO  DECIDE THEY WANT TO TAKE THIS ON AND START LEADING ON THIS  ISSUE, BECAUSE YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, THE PRC IS  KIND OF OFF DOING ITS OWN THING, YOU KNOW.

THE  ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT IS DOING ANOTHER.

THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING  ANOTHER.

AND THE LEGISLATORS ARE DOING  SOMETHING WITH THEIR CAPITAL OUTLAY AND IT CALLS FOR  SOMEBODY TO RANGLE ALL THESE CATS AND GET THEM TOGETHER TO  FIGURE OUT HOW WE ARE GOING TO DO THIS IN THE RIGHT WAY.

I HAVE SEEN THAT DONE IN THE PAST.

PRIOR ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE FIGURED THAT OUT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A GLOBAL  PANDEMIC.

THERE IS A LOT OF CHALLENGES  RIGHT NOW SO INFRASTRUCTURE AGAIN MIGHT NOT GET THE  ATTENTION IT NEEDS, BUT REALLY FOR LONG-TERM, THE TIME IS  RIGHT NOW TO SET UP SYSTEMS WE NEED TO START PLANNING MORE  RESPONSIBLY ON THIS FRONT.

Gene: THANKS AGAIN TO TERRY  FOR THAT CONVERSATION.

IT WAS TERRIFIC.

YOU CAN CATCH THAT FULL INTERVIEW ONLINE RIGHT NOW AT  NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS FACEBOOK PAGE.

A SHAKEUP IN ANOTHER STATE AGENCY HAS CAUGHT OUR EYE.

THE NEW MEXICO GAME COMMISSION HAS BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME,  MORE THAN 100 YEARS.

IT SETS RULES FOR HUNTING AND  FISHING BUT ALSO MUCH MORE AS OUR GUEST JEREMY VESBACH  EXPLAINS.

MR. VESBACH WAS THE VICE CHAIR OF THE GAME  COMMISSION UNTIL JUST RECENTLY WHEN HE WAS REMOVED BY  GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM.

THIS WEEK HE TALKS TO ENVIRONMENT CORRESPONDENT  LAURA PASKUS.

Laura:   JEREMY, WELCOME.

Vesbach: THANKS LAURA.

I AM REALLY GLAD TO BE HERE TO TALK ABOUT WILDLIFE TODAY.

Laura: YOU WERE, UNTIL RECENTLY, ON THE NEW MEXICO  GAME COMMISSION.

I WANT TO START WITH SOME  BASICS.

WHAT IS THE NEW MEXICO GAME  COMMISSION?

Vesbach: WELL, WHILE I WAS  ON THERE UNTIL A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, I TOOK TO CALLING  IT THE WILDLIFE COMMISSION BECAUSE GAME HAS BECOME A  LITTLE BIT OF AN OUTMODED TERM TO A LOT OF PEOPLE IN NEW  MEXICO BUT IT REALLY STARTED IN 1921, 101 YEARS AGO THIS  YEAR, TO PROTECT THE WILDLIFE SPECIES IN NEW MEXICO AND AT  THAT TIME THE MAJOR THREAT WAS UNREGULATED HUNTING, THAT, YOU  KNOW, WE HAD COMMERCIAL HUNTING, SO TO GET THAT UNDER  CONTROL, CREATE SCIENCE-BASED WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT.

PEOPLE AT THE TIME REALLY RALLIED TO CREATE A SYSTEM  THAT BROUGHT SCIENCE FORWARD BUT ALSO BROUGHT PUBLIC INPUT  FORWARD AND CREATED WHAT IS CALLED THE NEW MEXICO GAME  COMMISSION TO OVERSEE THE NEW MEXICO DEPARTMENT GAME AND  FISH WHICH IS OUR STATE WILDLIFE AGENCY.

Laura: GOVERNOR LUJAN GRISHAM RECENTLY REMOVED YOU  FROM THE GAME COMMISSION AND WE ARE GOING TO GET TO THAT IN  A MINUTE, BUT THE COMMISSION FOCUSES A LOT ON HUNTING AND  FISHING BUT THERE IS ALSO SOME OTHER ISSUES THAT AFFECT KIND  OF EVERYONE OR THE PUBLIC AS WELL.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT SOME OF THOSE.

I REMEMBER THE STATE'S PARTICIPATION IN THE WOLF  REINTRODUCTION PROGRAM IS KIND OF AN ISSUE THAT DRAWS A LOT  OF ATTENTION WHENEVER THAT COMES UP, BUT WHAT ARE SOME OF  THE OTHER ONES?

Vesbach: THERE IS A STATE  ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT AND THE DEPARTMENT OF GAME AND FISH IS  ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR RECOVERING SPECIES THAT ARE IN TROUBLE  AND THAT CAN BE EVERYTHING FROM THE TEXAS HORNSHELL  MUSSEL TO THE LESSER PRAIRIE CHICKEN TO GRAY WOLVES, THE  MEXICAN WOLF.

SO, SETTING THOSE HABITAT  CONSERVATION PLANS, GOING OUT AND GETTING PUBLIC INPUT,  MAKING SURE EVERYBODY'S VOICE IS HEARD, BUT THAT SCIENCE IS  REALLY THE DRIVING FORCE AS WELL.

SO, WHAT THE GAME COMMISSION DOES IS SETS RULES AND  REGULATIONS AROUND TAKE OF ANIMALS AND HABITAT PROJECTS,  HOW WE SPEND MONEY TO RESTORE HABITAT AND BRING BACK  SPECIES.

SO IT IS REALLY, I SAY THE  GAME COMMISSION SERVES THREE CRITICAL PURPOSES.

ONE IS PROTECTING PEOPLES' VOICE THAT DECISIONS ARE MADE  OUT IN PUBLIC.

THE COMMISSION MEETS, DO OPEN  MEETINGS ACT, THEY CANNOT PREDETERMINE DECISIONS.

WHEN I WAS ON THE COMMISSION, I COULDN'T CALL OTHER  COMMISSIONERS AND SAY, HEY, I THINK WE OUGHT TO VOTE THIS  WAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

THAT IS A RULE IN QUORUM YOU  CAN'T TRY TO LINE UP ALL THOSE VOTES AHEAD OF TIME.

YOU WANT TO PRESERVE THAT DECISION MAKING IN PUBLIC SO  YOU HEAR PEOPLE'S VOICES AND GET A CHANCE TO MAKE THAT.

AND THE OTHER THINGS ARE REALLY TO SORT OF THE SHIELD  FOR THAT WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT DOES NOT HAVE A POLITICAL  SWING UP AND DOWN WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE PEOPLE  APPOINTED, THEY SERVE TERMS, THEY HAVE TO COME BE  BIPARTISAN.

THERE ARE SEVEN COMMISSIONERS.

YOU CAN'T HAVE MORE THAN FOUR FROM ANY ONE POLITICAL PARTY  AND THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SERVE ACROSS TERMS OF GOVERNOR.

SO, GOVERNOR APPOINTS THEM, CONFIRMED BY THE SENATE.

SORT OF LIKE, IF YOU THINK THE WAY THE JUDICIARY SYSTEM IS  SUPPOSED TO WORK, WHERE YOU HAVE PEOPLE QUALIFIED,  APPOINTED AND THEN WORK ON CREATING RULES AND REGULATIONS  BUT WITH A LOT OF PUBLIC INPUT.

YEAH.

Laura: ONE OF THE ISSUES I  HAVE BEEN HEARING ABOUT IS STREAM ACCESS AND IF I HAVE  THIS RIGHT, IN 2018 THERE WAS A NEW RULE THAT ALLOWED PEOPLE  WHO OWN LAND NEXT TO A STREAM OR A RIVER TO PETITION THE  GAME COMMISSION TO CLOSE ACCESS.

AM I EXPLAINING THIS RIGHT OR WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH THIS  RULE?

Vesbach: YOU HAVE IT RIGHT.

EVEN STEPPING BACK FROM THAT RULE A BIT, WE HAD A LAWSUIT  AT UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO THAT WROTE AN OPINION SAID,  TWO AGENCIES ARE INTERPRETING STREAM ACCESS DIFFERENTLY IN  THE STATE.

THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT IS  GIVING GUIDANCE TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO FLOAT NEW MEXICO'S  RIVERS, SAYING NOT ONLY CAN YOU TOUCH THE BOTTOM OF THE  STREAM WHEN YOU'RE FLOATING, IF YOU HIT AN OBSTACLE, A TREE  OR SOMETHING, YOU HAVE A LEGAL RIGHT TO GO AROUND THAT AND  PORTAGE AROUND IT, BECAUSE OUR WATER IS PUBLICLY OWNED AND  YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO FLOAT IT.

IF YOU TOUCH THE BOTTOM IN THE INCIDENCE OF THAT, THAT IS  OKAY, BUT THE GAME DEPARTMENT, WHICH I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR  OVERSEEING THERE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, THEY JUST TOLD PEOPLE  YOU CAN'T.

YOU CAN'T TOUCH THE BOTTOM AND  THEY DID A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GUIDANCE.

THE LAWSUIT AT THE TIME THOUGHT THE ENVIRONMENT  DEPARTMENT WAS RIGHT.

LUCKY VARELA, REPRESENTATIVE WHO  GREW UP IN PECOS, HE ASKED FOR AN OPINION FROM THE ATTORNEY  GENERAL AND SAID, WHO IS RIGHT HERE?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL  AGAIN KIND OF SIDED WITH THE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT IDEA  BUT THE ADMINISTRATION AT THE TIME DID NOT PASS THE RULE  THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BACK IN THE MARTINEZ ADMINISTRATION,  LIKE YOU SAID, PASSED A RULE THAT LAND OWNERS COULD  PETITION TO CLOSE OFF SECTIONS OF THE STREAM.

WHEN I CAME ON THAT RULE WAS STILL IN PLACE AND WE HAD  SEVERAL PETITIONS COME IN AND WE ENDED UP DENYING THOSE  PETITIONS.

WE DIDN'T THINK THAT IT WAS RIGHT TO CLOSE  THOSE STREAMS BASED ON THE FACTS OF THE CASE AND THE  SUPREME COURT HAS TAKEN IT UP.

THEY ARE THE RIGHT ENTITY TO  DETERMINE CONSTITUTIONALLY, IS THERE A RIGHT TO TRAVEL ALONG  OUR PUBLIC STREAMS OR NOT?

SO, THEY WILL TAKE UP THAT  POSITION NOW, BUT THE LANDOWNERS WHO HAD PETITIONED  FOR THOSE OBVIOUSLY HAD STRONG OPINIONS BUT THERE IS A LOT OF  PUBLIC INPUT AS WELL ON IT.

Laura: LIKE I MENTIONED,  GOVERNOR MICHELLE GRISHAM REMOVED YOU FROM THE GAME  COMMISSION.

WHAT WERE YOU TOLD AND WHY  WERE YOU REMOVED FROM THE COMMISSION?

Vesbach: I WASN'T GIVEN A REASON.

I HAD A YEAR LEFT IN THE MY TERM AND I GOT A SHORT LETTER  THAT SAID -- THE GOVERNOR SAID, I HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO  REMOVE YOU, AND, THEREFORE, I AM REMOVING YOU.

MY TAKE IS THAT IT WAS BECAUSE ONE OF THE LANDOWNERS, IN  PARTICULAR, WHO HAD PETITIONED WHO HAD REALLY STARTED THIS  DRIVE TO PETITION TO CLOSE OFF STREAMS WAS A LARGE POLITICAL  DONOR.

WHEN I GOT ON THE COMMISSION, I WAS THERE TO  SERVE THE PUBLIC NOT TO SERVE ANYBODY'S POLITICAL INTEREST.

AND I WAS NOT WILLING TO KIND OF GO ALONG WITH WHAT A  CERTAIN LANDOWNER WOULD WANT AND I WOULD SAY THAT THERE IS  HERITAGE IN NEW MEXICO WHERE WE HAVE PUBLIC LANDS AND  PUBLIC WATERS AND OUR WILDLIFE, LIKE WE TALKED  ABOUT, IS PUBLICLY OWNED AND THERE IS A PUSH TO PRIVATIZE,  TO MAKE THAT ACCESS -- NOT SHUT IT DOWN BUT MAKE IT SO  THAT THE WEALTHIEST, MOST PRIVILEGED GET THAT ACCESS AND  THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC DOESN'T.

THAT GOES TO SOME OF OUR HUNTING RULES AS WELL.

I REALLY BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO PRESERVE THAT EQUAL ACCESS  AND FOR THE PUBLIC THIS INCREDIBLE HERITAGE WE HAVE,  SO, WHEN I WENT INTO THE COMMISSION I THOUGHT I AM NOT  GOING TO CHANGE MY VALUES FOR THAT AND I DO THINK THAT WAS  THE REASON I WAS REMOVED.

Laura: GETTING READY TO  TALK TO YOU, I LOOKED UP ON THE GAME COMMISSION'S WEBSITE  AND THERE IS ONLY FOUR COMMISSIONERS CURRENTLY  LISTED.

Vesbach:   THAT IS A BARE QUORUM.

SO, IF ONE PERSON DIDN'T SHOW UP THEY COULDN'T HOLD A  MEETING NOW AND OUR HUNTING RULES AND REGULATIONS ARE ON A  FOUR-YEAR CYCLE.

THEY HAVE TO BE SET SO THE  GOVERNOR IS GOING TO HAVE TO APPOINT NEW COMMISSIONERS SOON  BECAUSE WE WON'T HAVE HUNTING SEASONS.

WE WON'T BE ABLE TO GO FORWARD WITHOUT THE COMMISSION THERE  TO SET RULES.

Laura: EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE  NOT ON THE COMMISSION ANYMORE, I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN ACTIVE ON  THESE ISSUES FOR A LONG TIME AND PAYING ATTENTION TO THE  COMMISSION FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT DO YOU HOPE THAT THAT  COMMISSION CAN BE?

Vesbach: WELL, LIKE I SAID,  101 YEARS OLD AND YOU LOOK BACK TO THE HISTORY AND THERE  WAS TWO CALLS WHEN THE COMMISSION WAS CREATED.

ONE,  GET THE GAME DEPARTMENT OUT OF POLITICS.

AND I THINK THAT STILL STANDS TRUE TODAY.

WE HAVE TO RESTORE THAT POLITICAL SHIELD.

COMMISSIONERS WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE REMOVED WITHOUT  CAUSE.

THAT WAS NEVER THE INTENT, BUT  THERE WAS A COURT DISCUSSION IN THE RICHARDSON  ADMINISTRATION ABOUT A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT KIND OF  COMMISSION, JUDICIAL STANDARD COMMISSION, AND RICHARDSON  REMOVED JUST EVERYONE.

THERE WAS A LAWSUIT AND THE  COURT RULED THAT IF THERE IS NOT A VERY SPECIFIC PROCESS  SPELLED OUT TO REMOVE A COMMISSIONER FOR CAUSE, THEN  THEY SERVE AT WILL.

SO, I WOULD SAY THAT WOULD BE  SIMILAR TO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAD JUSTICES WHO COULD JUST BE  PULLED BACK OFF THE COURT IF THE GOVERNOR DIDN'T LIKE A  DECISION THEY MADE, YOU KNOW.

SO IT IS NO LONGER SERVING  THAT POLITICAL SHIELD AND I THINK UPDATING THAT LAW IS  SUPER IMPORTANT, KIND OF RESTORING THE ORIGIN INTENT  BUT WITH NEW IDEAS AND NEW SCIENCE, YOU KNOW, LIKE I  SAID, WE STILL CALL IT THE GAME COMMISSION WHEN IN  REALITY IT IS A WILDLIFE COMMISSION NOW.

SO WE NEED TO UPDATE THAT AND THEN THE OTHER PART OF THAT I  THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT IS TO PROTECT ALL THE WILDLIFE OF  NEW MEXICO AND THERE WAS A COURT DECISION IN THE 50'S  THAT SAID THE JUSTICE -- READING SUPREME COURT  DECISIONS ISN'T USUALLY SUPER EXCITING AND FUN, BUT THIS ONE  IS A LITTLE HILARIOUS.

THE JUSTICE WHO WROTE THE  STATE SUPREME COURT DECISION SAID THAT WE CAN'T LET THE  COMMISSION PROTECT ANY WILDLIFE SPECIES, MY GOD, THEY  COULD PROTECT JACK RABBITS AND JACKRABBITS ARE A GAME  SPECIES.

NOW WE HAVE AN ENDANGERED  SPECIES OF JACK RABBITS THE WHITE-SIDED JACK RABBIT, THAT  THE COMMISSION IS DOING A LOT TO TRY TO PROTECT.

SO, RESTORING THAT ORIGINAL INTENT, WE HAVE JUST A  PATCHWORK OF PROTECTION, SOME REPTILES ARE PROTECTED, SOME  KINDS OF BIRDS, BUT WE HAVE SPECIES THAT ARE IN NEED THAT  ARE DECLINING THAT THE COMMISSION CANNOT NECESSARILY  PROTECT.

SO, I THINK, THE LEGISLATURE,  I WOULD SAY, NEEDS TO TAKE ACTION ON TWO THINGS, JUST  KIND OF RESTORE THE ORIGINAL INTENT WITH NEW KNOWLEDGE AND  THAT IS THE COMMISSIONERS CAN'T BE REMOVED WITHOUT CAUSE  BECAUSE WE DO NEED THAT POLITICAL SHIELD AND THEN FOR  WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT SO SCIENCE GUIDES IT, BUT WE HAVE A LOT  OF PUBLIC INPUT AND THEN THE OTHER PART IS, KIND OF  MODERNIZING THAT IS NOT JUST ABOUT GAME SPECIES.

IT IS ACKNOWLEDGING THAT IT IS ALL THE WILDLIFE THAT THE GAME  COMMISSION OR WILDLIFE COMMISSION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR  OVERSEEING.

Laura:   THANK YOU JEREMY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU JOINING  ME.

Vesbach: THANKS, IT WENT BY  QUICK.

Gene: WE ASKED THE  GOVERNOR'S OFFICE FOR A COMMENT ABOUT VESBACH'S  REMOVAL FROM THE COMMISSION.

PRESS SECRETARY MEYERS SACKETT  SAID THERE WAS A DISAGREEMENT OF MISSION, END QUOTE,  UNRELATED TO STREAM ACCESS.

SHE SAID THE GOVERNOR RESPECTS  AND APPRECIATES VESBACH'S DEDICATED YEARS OF SERVICE AND  ADVOCACY AND SAID THERE ARE PLANS TO FILL THE VACANCIES  BEFORE THE NEXT GAME COMMISSION MEETING.

WE CALLED THE DEPARTMENT TO FIND OUT WHEN THAT MEETING  WILL BE HELD.

IT WILL BE SOME TIME IN  FEBRUARY BUT RIGHT NOW THERE IS NO DATE.

ANOTHER POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT MAY HAVE TURNED CRIMINAL.

A U.S. HOUSE COMMITTEE INVESTIGATING THE JANUARY 6  INSURRECTION HAS SUBPOENAED MORE THAN A DOZEN PEOPLE.

IT SAYS FALSELY TRIED TO  DECLARE DONALD TRUMP WINNER IN KEY STATES.

THAT INCLUDES NEW  MEXICO.

ACCORDING TO RECENT REPORTS,  MR. TRUMP'S THEN ATTORNEY, RUDY GIULIANI, LED THE SCHEME.

LET'S GET TO OUR LINE PANELIST.

REBECCA LATHAM, HOW MUCH OF A BLACK EYE IS THIS FOR NEW  MEXICO.

Latham: I THINK IT IS  WEIRD.

I THINK IT IS HORRIBLY  EMBARRASSING, PERSONALLY.

WHAT THE ROOT CAUSE OF IT WAS,  IT WAS JUST TO CAUSE DISRUPTION, CONFUSION OR IF IT  WAS GENUINE BELIEF THAT TRUMP DID WIN THE ELECTION IN NEW  MEXICO, IT SEEMS BIZARRE.

I WILL GIVE CREDIT TO NEW  MEXICO AND I THINK IT WAS PENNSYLVANIA WHO DID PUT A  CAVEAT IN ABOUT, YOU KNOW, SENDING THIS FALSIFIED  DOCUMENT, THIS LETTER, AS A JUST IN CASE, INSTEAD OF,  OTHER STATES, I THINK, NEVADA ACTUALLY SENT TWO DIFFERENT  DOCUMENTS THAT WERE BOTH FROM THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

SO, THE WHOLE THING SMELLS LIKE DA VINCI CODE STYLE, YOU  KNOW, COUP.

IT IS BIZARRE AND IT HAS BEEN  REALLY INTERESTING TO SEE HOW IT IS PLAYING OUT IN THE  NATIONAL NEWS.

Gene: SOPHIE, ONE OF THE  ELECTORS FROM NEW MEXICO SAYS THAT CHAIRMAN STEVE PEARCE  DIRECTED HIM TO FALSELY GIVE THE STATES ELECTORAL VOTE TO  DONALD TRUMP.

I GOT TO FLAT OUT ASK, IS THIS  A DISQUALIFYING DISCOVERY?

THIS SEEMS PRETTY SERIOUS TO  ME.

Sophie: IT IS A BIG DEAL  AND DOES SEEM LIKE THE SUBPOENAS ARE FOCUSED ON  TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO WAS BEHIND THESE ACTIVITIES, WHERE  THE DIRECTION GAME FROM, THE PATH WHICH THEY TRAVELED INTO  THE VARIOUS STATES LEADING TO THESE NAMING OF FALSE ELECTORS  ET CETERA.

SO, STEVE PEARCE'S  INVOLVEMENT, OF COURSE, IF IT IS TRUE, IS GOING TO BE VERY  INTERESTING TO THE CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE  FOCUSED ON JANUARY 6 WHICH IS WHO HAS ISSUED THESE  SUBPOENAS.

IT IS INTERESTING, YOU KNOW,  IT SORT OF FEELS, PICKING UP A LITTLE BIT ON WHAT REBECCA WAS  SAYING ABOUT HOW NEW MEXICO AND PENNSYLVANIA SUBMITTED  THESE KIND OF JUST-IN-CASE LETTERS.

THERE IS THIS MEME ON THE INTERNET THAT IS LIKE, MESS  AROUND AND FIND OUT, BUT MESSING AROUND AND FINDING OUT  CAN HAVE REAL LEGAL CONSEQUENCES AND I THINK THAT  ALTHOUGH AT LEAST ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP, JOE  POWDRELL, WHO SAYS HE HAS NO REGRETS WHATSOEVER, WE ARE  GOING TO SEE WHETHER CHARGES END UP BEING FILED AGAINST  FOLKS, AGAINST THESE FIVE AND POTENTIALLY MORE NEW MEXICANS  WHO WERE INVOLVED.

Gene: WHO ARE THE FIVE?

Sophie: I AM GOING TO LIST THEM OUT FOR YOU.

IT IS JOE POWDRELL, WHO IS A RETIRED BUSINESSMAN FROM  ALBUQUERQUE.

DEBORAH MAESTAS IS A FORMER  CHAIR OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF NEW MEXICO AND WAS DEPUTY  CAMPAIGN MANAGER ON ALAN WEY'S SENATE CAMPAIGN BACK IN 2014.

LUPE GARCIA IS A BUSINESS OWNER IN ALBUQUERQUE.

ROSIE TRIPP IS THE NATIONAL COMMITTEE WOMAN FOR THE  REPUBLICAN PARTY HERE IN NEW MEXICO AND WELL-KNOWN, OF  COURSE, FROM HER ELECTED POSITION IN SOCORRO COUNTY,  ANISA FORD TINNIN, FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE STATE  REPUBLICAN PARTY.

SO, A LOT OF THESE ARE  WELL-KNOWN NAMES HERE AND THEN IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT HARVEY  YATES, WHO IS CHAIR OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FROM 2009 TO  2010 WAS EXPECTED TO SIGN BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE HE DID NOT.

Gene: INTERESTING.

Sophie: THAT IS PRETTY MUCH  A WHOSE WHO IN NEW MEXICO REPUBLICAN POLITICS.

I MEAN NOT LITERALLY EVERYONE BUT THOSE ARE WELL-KNOWN NAMES  HERE.

Gene:   GOOD POINT, THESE AREN'T UNDERLINGS IN SOME  FAR-FLUNG COUNTY THAT HAD TO GET TALKED INTO SOMETHING  UNKNOWINGLY.

ED, I WAS WATCHING SOMETHING  ON ONE OF THE NATIONAL CABLE SHOWS THE OTHER NIGHT, PEOPLE  NEED TO REALIZE THESE ARE SERIOUS CHARGES THAT COME WITH  FOUR TO FIVE YEAR SENTENCES FOR FALSIFYING THINGS ON  FEDERAL DOCUMENTS.

THIS IS NOT LIKE FORGING  SOMETHING FOR YOUR KIDS PTA CLASS OR A FIELD TRIP.

THIS IS A SERIOUS BUSINESS.

HOW SHOULD WE CITIZENS THINK  ABOUT THIS?

Edmund: THIS IS AN ASSAULT  ON OUR DEMOCRACY.

I WOULD LOVE TO GET MORE  INFORMATION AND I KNOW THAT IS WHAT THE JANUARY 6 COMMISSION  IS DOING IS TRYING TO GET ANSWERS WHO WAS BEHIND IT.

WHO IS THE PUPPET MASTER?

THIS APPEARS TO BE PART OF A  BROADER CONSPIRACY THAT IF WE START TO CONNECT THE DOTS,  THIS PIECE OF THE ELECTORAL VOTES MAY HAVE JUST BEEN ONE  COMPONENT PIECE OF A BROADER PLAN.

WHAT ROLE DID THE JANUARY 6 RIOTS -- WERE THOSE IN SOME  WAY SOMEHOW CONNECTED TO THIS MASTER PLAN?

AND WHEN DID THIS START?

THE INFORMATION I AM HEARING IS IT  STARTED RIGHT AFTER THE ELECTION RESULTS AS SOON AS  BIDEN WAS ANNOUNCED THE WINNER THERE WAS A PLAN THAT WAS PUT  INTO MOTION.

IF THAT IS THE CASE, THERE  NEEDS TO BE SOME LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

IF WE TAKE OUR DEMOCRACY SERIOUSLY THERE MUST BE  ACCOUNTABILITY AND FOR THOSE LOCAL, IF THIS TOUCHED US  LOCALLY, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR MORE.

RIGHT NOW THEY HAVE  JUST BEEN SUBPOENAED TO ANSWER QUESTIONS AND ONCE THEY  RESPOND TO SUBPOENAS AND ANSWER SOME OF THE QUESTIONS,  THEY MAY SHED LIGHT AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON.

AS YOU SAID, GENE, IT IS A CRIMINAL ACT AND ONE THAT IS A  RESULT OF THE ACTION THAT THIS GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS TOOK.

ONE OF THE MEMBER WAS MENTIONED THAT HE HAS NO  REGRETS, WELL, I WONDER IF THERE ARE FEDERAL CHARGES,  WHETHER THE REGRETS MIGHT START TO SEEP IN.

WE NEED TO TAKE THIS ISSUE VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY.

OUR DEMOCRACY IS AT STAKE.

Gene: I WAS SURPRISED BY  THAT QUOTE, I'LL TELL YOU HONESTLY.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS GETTING WAY OUT IN FRONT OF IT.

REBECCA, I HAVE GOT TO ASK, A LOT OF REPUBLICANS THINK  DONALD TRUMP WON THAT ELECTION.

AND SO I GOT TO  ASK, IS THIS POSSIBLY GOING TO HAVE SOME BOUNCE IN OUR  ROUNDHOUSE ON DECORUM?

BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL  VERY SERIOUSLY ABOUT THIS, THAT IT WAS STOLEN AND THEY  ARE JUST NOT GOING TO MOVE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

ANYBODY  BOUNCE YOU CAN ANTICIPATE FROM THIS?

Latham: I AM NOT SURE ABOUT BOUNCE BUT IT IS DEFINITELY  PLAYING VERY HEAVILY IN LEADING UP TO THE REPUBLICAN  PRIMARY FOR THE GOVERNOR'S RACE AND, YOU KNOW, YOU  REALLY, IF YOU'RE GOING TO WIN AS A REPUBLICAN IN NEW MEXICO,  YOU HAVE GOT TO DO SO AS A TRUMP ALLY.

YOU CAN'T SEPARATE FROM TRUMP EVEN STILL AND THEN EXPECT TO  WIN THE REPUBLICAN VOTE.

I WILL SAY, I WOULD BE VERY  CURIOUS IN WATCHING THEM BECAUSE THE SEVEN STATES THAT  PARTICIPATED, IT IS ALMOST AS IF, I FEEL LIKE THERE WILL BE  SOME SORT OF A STATEMENT THAT SAYS, OH, NO, YOU GUYS HAVE  THIS ALL WRONG.

THAT IS NOT WHAT WE WERE  TRYING TO DO BECAUSE IT ALMOST IS LIKE, THE FACT THAT EVERY  STATE HAD THEIR OWN STYLE OF WHAT THEY SENT AND THESE SEVEN  STATES SENT A TEMPLATE LETTER THAT ALL LOOKED THE SAME, JUST  CHANGED OUT THE NAMES, OF COURSE, IT WOULD COME TO  LIGHT.

OF COURSE, THEY WERE GOING TO  GET CAUGHT.

IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE SOMETHING  THAT IS SO MAGICALLY WHERE THEY ALL MET IN SECRECY, ON  THE SAME DAY AND DID ALL THESE THINGS, THEY WOULD ALWAYS JUST  USE A COPYCAT.

Gene: EXACTLY RIGHT.

HOW INTERESTING.

SOPHIE, LAST WORDS ON THIS.

WE HAVE ABOUT 20 SECONDS.

OF COURSE, I HAVE A FEELING  THIS COULD BE WAY BIGGER FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN NEW  MEXICO THAN FOLKS ARE REALIZING.

THIS THING COULD RAGE LIKE A WILDFIRE CONSIDERING WHO IS  INVOLVED IN THE CHARGES, AS ED MENTIONED, YET TO COME DOWN,  SHOULD FOLKS BE NERVOUS HERE?

Sophie: HERE IS THE  QUESTION, RIGHT.

GIVEN THE CURRENT POLITICAL  ENVIRONMENT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE LAST HOWEVER MANY  YEARS, IS THIS A BADGE OF HONOR OR DISHONOR WITHIN THE  REPUBLICAN PARTY?

I THINK THAT IS GOING TO SAY A  LOT ABOUT THE FUTURE OF OUR DEMOCRACY IN NEW MEXICO, IN  THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE.

I THINK IT IS VERY MUCH THE  CASE THAT IN MANY PARTS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, OVER MANY  SECTORS, RIGHT ON.

LET'S KEEP DOING THIS, THIS LOOKS GREAT.

AND, SO, IT IS VERY HARD AT THIS MOMENT TO PREDICT WHAT  THE OUTCOME IS GOING TO BE.

Gene: FAIR ENOUGH.

A LOT OF PUSH AND PULL DOING ON THERE.

THANKS TO THE LINE PANEL.

AWESOME STUFF AS ALWAYS.

NOW THIS WEEK BE SURE TO LET US KNOW ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK  ABOUT ANY TOPICS COVERED ON THE SHOW THIS WEEK ON  FACEBOOK, TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM PAGES.

ALL OF US HERE AT NEW MEXICO PBS WISH SENATOR BEN RAY LUJAN  A SPEEDY RECOVERY.

AS YOU KNOW, HE SUFFERED WHAT  TURNED OUT TO BE A STROKE WHEN HE CHECKED HIMSELF INTO THE  HOSPITAL IN SANTA FE AFTER NOT FEELING WELL.

BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT, GOOD ON THE SENATOR.

BY LISTENING TO HIS BODY AND ACTING, HIS OWN ACTIONS ARE A  LARGE REASON WHY HIS PROGNOSIS FOR FULL RECOVERY IS ACTUALLY  PRETTY PROMISING.

IT IS REALLY GOOD NEWS.

IN  ADDITION, WHAT THE SENATOR DEMONSTRATED FOR US IS A KEEN  AWARENESS OF THE SIGNS OF A STROKE.

IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW, IT IS KNOWN AS FAST.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS FACE DROOPING FOR F, ARM WEAKNESS  FOR A, SPEECH DIFFICULTY FOR S AND TIME TO CALL 911 FOR T.  THIS TIME LAST YEAR, UNM HEALTH OPENED THEIR STROKE  CENTER AND I HAD THE CHANCE TO DISCUSS AT LENGTH HOW STROKE  IMPACTS ALL OF US WITH REPRESENTATIVES FROM UNMH AND  WE ARE BLESSED TO HAVE THEM HERE IN OUR STATE, BECAUSE,  FOLKS, EVERY FOUR MINUTES IN OUR COUNTRY SOMEONE DIES FROM  A STROKE, FROM 795,000 STROKES THAT HAPPEN ACROSS OUR  COUNTRY, IN FACT, UNMH HANDLED 400 CASES LAST YEAR LOCALLY.

STROKE PREVENTION THROUGH BETTER HEALTH IS THE BEST  START, NO MATTER WHAT AGE.

AND KEEP IN MIND, SENATOR  LUJAN IS ONLY 48 YEARS OLD.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT  INTERVIEW, AND I PROMISE YOU'LL LEARN SOMETHING, HEAD  TO OUR FOCUS ON NEW MEXICO FACEBOOK PAGE AND THE FULL  INTERVIEW IS THERE.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US  AND STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK, IN FOCUS.