>> THE FIGHT AGAINST ANTI-VACCINE MISINFORMATION • HOW TO SPEND COVID RELIEF FUNDS AND AMERICA MOVES OUT AS THE TALIBAN MOVES IN.

STAY TUNED IVORY TOWER IS NEXT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

WE ARE GRATEFUL THAT YOU'RE JOINING US.

I'M NINA MOORE OF COLGATE UNIVERSITY.

IN THE STUDIO WITH ME TO DISCUSS THIS WEEK'S NEWS ARE BEN BAUGHMAN OF CAZENOVIA COLLEGE, ANIRBAN ACHARYA OF LEMOYNE COLLEGE, AND TARA ROSS OF ONONDAGA COMMUNITY COLLEGE MANY OF YOU HAVE PROBABLY HEARD THAT THE WHITE HOUSE IS BLAMING YOUTUBE, FACEBOOK, AND OTHER SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS FOR NOT DOING ENOUGH TO CLAMP DOWN ON MISINFORMATION ABOUT COVID VACCINES.

IN A MOMENT OF FRUSTRATION, PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID THE COMPANIES WERE "KILLING PEOPLE" BY ALLOWING THIS MISINFORMATION TO SPREAD.

AND SO BEGAN THE BACK-AND-FORTH.

FACEBOOK PUSHED BACK BY SAYING THE VAST MAJORITY OF ITS USERS ARE EITHER VACCINATED OR WANT TO BE.

AND NOW THERE'S A STUDY OUT THAT SAYS ONLY A DOZEN OR SO ACCOUNTS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR NEARLY TWO-THIRDS OF THE ANTI-VACCINE MISINFORMATION THAT'S ONLINE.

ANIRBAN, WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO TACKLE ANTI-VACCINE MISINFORMATION?

>> I THINK THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND I WISH I COULD GIVE A CLEAR AND STRAIGHTFORWARD ANSWER, BUT I'M AFRAID I CAN'T DO THAT.

BUT I'LL TRY.

YOU KNOW, A FEW DECADES BACK, WE WERE SO AWED BY THIS AMAZING INFORMATION AGE.

AND NOW WE-- LITTLE DID WE KNOW A FEW DECADES LATER, WE WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, LAMENTING ABOUT MISINFORMATION.

YOU KNOW, THIS RAISES SERIOUS ISSUES, RIGHT?

LET'S LOOK AT THE ISSUES OF WHO GETS TO CONTROL THE SUBSTANCE AND FLOW OF INFORMATION AND HOW THEY DO THAT.

AND YOU KNOW, TO THAT EFFECT, LET'S LOOK AT HOW SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS WORK, RIGHT?

SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS BASICALLY, THE USER IS THE PRODUCT, RIGHT?

SO THEY'RE MONETIZING SOCIAL BEHAVIOR.

SO YOU KNOW, IN ONE WAY, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE THEY ARE BASICALLY SELLING USER DATA TO GET YOUR ATTENTION.

YOUR ATTENTION IS BEING SOLD, RIGHT?

SO AS LONG AS THAT'S THE BUSINESS MODEL LOGICALLY SPEAKING, RIGHT?

YOU KNOW, THE COMPANIES DO NOT HAVE ANY SERIOUS INCENTIVE TO CURB MISINFORMATION AS LONG AS THE FLOW OF MISINFORMATION GENERATES PROFIT.

HAVING SAID THAT, THERE IS A FURTHER LEGAL ISSUE HERE.

THE COMMON DECENCY ACT OF 1996.

IT BASICALLY SHIELDS LARGE INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS AND THESE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES FROM LIABILITY, FROM REGARDING THE THIRD PARTY'S POST.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS OF IT, RIGHT?

THEY CANNOT BE SUED FOR TAKING DOWN CONTENT.

THEY CANNOT BE SUED FOR KEEPING CONTENT ONLINE.

THIS PARTICULAR, YOU KNOW, LEGAL SCENARIO IS VERY HARD FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO DO ANYTHING CONCRETELY OTHER THAN REQUEST SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES AND SO ON.

AND I JUST WANT TO REMIND OUR VIEWERS, RIGHT, LIKE IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, I FORGET-- THERE IS PRO-LIBERAL BIAS IN SOCIAL MEDIA AND THAT WE SHOULD LOOK AT 230.

IN THAT SENSE, THE BIDEN AND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAVE SIMILAR AGREEMENTS IN THIS.

BUT I THINK IT'S BEST TO COUNTERACT MISINFORMATION BY MORE CORRECT INFORMATION IN WHATEVER WAY WE CAN DO THAT.

MAYBE TAGGING VIDEOS, SAYING THEY HAVE DISRUPTED THE FEED WITH MORE SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION AND SO ON.

>> YEAH, WHICH, OF COURSE, WOULD REQUIRE THE COOPERATION OF THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS.

THE PRESIDENT, JOE BIDEN, HAS SAID THAT HE IS LOOKING AT THE OPTIONS FOR HOLDING THESE COMPANIES RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR FAILURES.

TRANSLATION: HE IS LOOKING AT WAYS TO HOLD THEM LIABLE BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE ARGUMENT IS THAT THEY'RE CAUSING HARM.

YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT HIS PLANS TO THINK ABOUT THE LIABILITY ISSUE OF THIS?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS TRICKY.

THERE IS A HUGE FREE SPEECH ISSUE, RIGHT?

AND THIS PARTICULAR LIABILITY CREATED THE INTERNET.

THE MEDIA COMPANIES KIND OF, YOU KNOW, INCREASED THEIR PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE OF THIS LEGAL ENVIRONMENT.

I DON'T THINK THERE IS MUCH BIDEN CAN DO WITHOUT BEING CRITICIZED OF BEING CENSORED AND IF YOU LOOK AT MEDIA REPORTING DURING COLD WAR OR ANTIBLACK REPORTING THROUGHOUT THE 20th CENTURY, CONVENTIONAL MEDIA OUTLETS SPREAD THE MISINFORMATION AND IT WAS UP TO THE VIEWERS TO SORT THROUGH THAT.

>> AND I THINK WHAT WE ARE FIGHTING AGAINST IS TWO THINGS: THE NARRATIVE.

ONCE THE NARRATIVE IS OUT THERE, TO TRY TO COMBAT IT IS HORRIFIC.

IT'S AN UPHILL BATTLE.

THE OTHER ISSUE THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH IS THE WAY THAT OUR MIND IS HARD WIRED, WHICH IS WE SEE WHAT WE EXPECT TO SEE AND OUR MINDS WILL DISCOUNT THINGS THAT DO NOT MATTER TO US.

AND THAT, TOGETHER WITH THE ALGORITHM THAT THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS HAVE IN PLACE FOR THE ABILITY TO REACH OUT TO THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE PARTICULAR INTERESTS, CONTINUES TO FUNNEL THOSE INTERESTS AND DIVIDE PEOPLE INTO GROUPS THAT WANT TO HEAR THE SAME THING.

>> YOU MAKE A VERY GOOD POINT BECAUSE STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT BASICALLY WE FILTER OUT, YOU KNOW, ALL BUT MAYBE THREE OR 4% OF ANY INFORMATION THAT ISN'T INFORMATION THAT SPEAKS TO WHAT WE ALREADY BELIEVE.

SO THIS IS PART WHAT HAVE MAKES IT SO HARD FOR GROUPS LIKE FACEBOOK, ET CETERA, AND PART OF WHY THEY ARGUE THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR SORT OF CLEARING UP MISINFORMATION BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GOING TO PAY ATTENTION TO IT ANYWAY.

NOW, ONE SUGGESTION HAS BEEN THAT PERHAPS YOU SHOULD ALLOW, YOU KNOW, SORT OF PUT THE INFORMATION OUT THERE, BUT THEN ALLOW THE PUBLIC TO RESPOND WITH CORRECT INFORMATION.

THAT HAS BEEN SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN USED BY FACEBOOK AND OTHERS EVERY SO OFTEN TO ADDRESS MISINFORMATION.

THE OTHER THING THAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP IS THIS NOTION OF NEWS LITERACY AND THAT WE ARE NOW IN AN AGE WHERE NEWS LITERACY NEEDS TO BE-- NEEDS TO BEGIN TO BE TAUGHT EARLY ON IN SCHOOLS SO THAT BASICALLY YOU HAVE A NEW GENERATION BEING RAISED UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU JUST CAN'T ACCEPT EVERYTHING YOU SEE ON THE INTERNET.

YOU REALLY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT, LOOK FOR OTHER SOURCES, LOOK FOR ACCURACY IN IT.

>> SO I WANT TO ASK AND SWITCH GEARS A LITTLE BIT AND ASK WHAT IS PROBABLY MORE OF A PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

AND THAT IS HOW DO WE GO BACK DEFINING AND IDENTIFYING WHAT, IN FACT, IS MISINFORMATION BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALL MENTIONED THAT WE ALL EXIST WITHIN OUR SILOS THAT WE CONSIDER TO BE GOOD INFORMATION.

SO HOW, AS A BODY POLITIC BROADLY WRIT IDENTIFY AND SAY THIS CONSTITUTES MISINFORMATION?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT WE CAN AS FAR AS THE GOVERNMENT.

I THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD DO THEIR THING AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR SHOULD DO THEIR THING.

I DON'T THINK THAT THOSE TWO-- OTHER THAN TRYING TO DO WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, IS INFORM THE PUBLIC WITH SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH; THAT THIS IS WHAT THE SCIENCE IS TELLING US.

BEYOND THAT, IT IS THEIR PRIVATE INSTITUTE THAT THEY'RE RUNNING, A BUSINESS.

>> THANKS FOR THAT.

SO MOVING FROM A DISCUSSION ABOUT COVID INFORMATION TO COVID HARD DOLLARS.

THE THE LAST FEDERAL COVID RELIEF PACKAGE AWARDED THE CITY OF SYRACUSE $126 MILLION, ROCHESTER JUST OVER $200 MILLION, AND ONONDAGA COUNTY $90 MILLION.

IT IS UP TO CITIES AND COUNTIES TO DECIDE THE BEST USE OF THESE FUNDS, AS LONG AS THEY'RE USED IN SOME WAY FOR COVID RELIEF.

ROCHESTER USED AN UNUSUAL METHOD TO DECIDE • A SURVEY • A SURVEY THAT ASKED RESIDENTS FOR IDEAS.

AND THE IDEAS CAME POURING IN.

SO, TURNING TO SYRACUSE, TARA, HOW DOES SYRACUSE MAYOR BEN WALSH PLAN TO USE THE FUNDS AND DOES HIS PLAN FIT WITH THE INTENT BEHIND THE STIMULUS FUNDS?

>> WELL, MAYOR WALSH TOOK THE ATTITUDE THAT BASICALLY HE WOULD TRY TO ADDRESS MANY PROBLEMS, EVEN IF HE COULDN'T SORT OF RESOLVE EVERY PROBLEM, HE WOULD TRY AND PUT FUNDS TOWARDS MANY OF THE ISSUES THAT THE CITY FACES.

AND SO I'M JUST GOING TO NAME A FEW OF THEM.

HE IS GOING TO PUT MONEY TOWARDS BUILDING AND/OR IMPROVING LOW INCOME HOUSING.

HE IS GOING TO SET THE SYSTEM OF GRANTS AND LOW INTEREST HOME IMPROVEMENT LOANS.

HE IS GOING TO REMOVE LEAD FROM HOMES.

THERE IS GOING TO BE RENT RELIEF TO LANDLORDS AND TENANTS WHO COULDN'T QUALIFY FOR RENT RELIEF.

HE WANTS TO ESTABLISH WIRELESS INTERNET ACCESS IN LOW INCOME NEIGHBORHOODS.

HE WANTS TO USE SOME OF IT TO HELP WITH THE I-81 CORRIDOR ONCE WE FINALLY HAVE FIGURED OUT WHAT THAT IS GOING TO BE IN TERMS OF ENCOURAGING BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT, ET CETERA.

SOME OF IT IS GOING TO BE ENVIRONMENTAL, BUILDING-- PLANTING 3,000 TREES.

AND THAT'S WITHIN THE CITY WHICH ENVIRONMENTALISTS SAY DESPERATELY NEEDS TO START HAPPENING IN ORDER TO HELP IMPROVE OUR FISCAL AND MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL ENVIRONMENT.

THOSE ARE JUST SOME OF THE AREAS WHERE MAYOR WALSH IS GOING TO PUT THE MONEY FOR.

AND YES, THIS IS PART OF WHAT WAS INTENDED IN THE STIMULUS PACKAGE.

IT WAS INTENDED TO INCREASE BROADBAND ACCESS.

IT WAS INTENDED TO HELP CITIES TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE NEEDS THAT CAME FORWARD THANKS TO COVID-19 AND CERTAINLY THE ISSUE OF RENT, RENT RELIEF WAS PART OF IT.

BUT IT ALSO WAS DESIGNED TO ADDRESS ISSUES THAT CITIES HAD WANTED TO ADDRESS BUT COULDN'T BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, OF THE MASSESSIVE IMPACT OF COVID-19.

HE IS BASICALLY WITHIN THE INTENT OF THE STIMULUS PACKAGE.

>> THANKS FOR LAYING OUT THE VERY DETAILED LISTING OF WHAT MAYOR WALSH PLANS TO DO.

WHAT SHOULD BE THE FRAMEWORK FOR OTHER CITIES TO DETERMINE?

SHOULD BROADBAND SERVICE BE SORT OF STANDARD, ESPECIALLY IN UPSTATE NEW YORK?

PERHAPS OTHER THINGS THAT SHOULD BE COMMON ACROSS UPSTATE CITIES OR SHOULD IT BE SORT OF A POTPOURRI OF WHATEVER IS NEEDED?

>> I THINK IT SHOULD BE A POTPOURRI OF WHAT IS NEEDED BECAUSE IT IS VERY HARD TO SAY THAT EVERY CITY NEEDS EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

YOU MENTIONED BROADBAND ACCESS.

THAT'S ONE OF THE FEW THINGS THAT I THINK SHOULD BE UNIFORM ACROSS BASICALLY UPSTATE NEW YORK AND REALLY ACROSS THE STATE.

WE HAVE REACHED A POINT WHERE BROADBAND ACCESS IS NOT JUST SOMETHING YOU HAVE WANT TO HAVE.

BROADBAND ACCESS IS SOMETHING WE ALL NEED TO HAVE.

JUST TAKE APPLICATIONS.

MOST APPLICATIONS NOW HAVE TO BE DONE ONLINE, SO IF YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE INTERNET, YOU CAN'T DO APPLICATIONS FOR ANYTHING FROM A DRIVER'S LICENSE TO APPLYING FOR A NEW JOB.

SO SOMETHING LIKE THAT PROBABLY SHOULD BE ACROSS THE STATE.

BUT OTHERWISE, EACH CITY, EACH COUNTY IS DIFFERENT.

THEIR NEEDS MAY BE SIMILAR BUT THEY'RE NOT EXACTLY THE SAME.

>> I WANT TO JUMP IN AND SAY THAT WE DON'T GET TO HEAR GOOD NEWS OFTEN BUT A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO THE URBAN INSTITUTE CAME OUT WITH A STUDY THAT SAID EVEN IF TEMPORARY, THE STIMULUS PACKAGE AND THE CASH ASSISTANCE TO AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE CREATED A 45% DECREASE IN POVERTY, A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF, YOU KNOW, TREMENDOUSLY GOOD NEWS IN TERMS OF ABOUT TWO MILLION MORE PEOPLE WOULD BE LESS POOR BECAUSE OF THIS ASSISTANCE.

I THINK GOING AS A TEMPLATE, I THINK IT'S BEST TO SPEND THE MONEY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE LEAST ECONOMICALLY WELL OFF IN OUR SOCIETY, ESPECIALLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND THAT KIND OF SHOULD BE THE TEMPLATE OF HOW WE SHOULD SPEND THESE FUNDS.

AND I THINK MAYOR BEN WALSH, YOU KNOW, THE LIST THAT YOU GO THROUGH, THERE ARE LOTS OF GOOD INITIATIVES IN THAT PARTICULAR DIRECTION.

YOU KNOW, I FEEL TWO PIECES THAT I WANTED TO SEE MORE OF THIS.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE RIGHT TO MOVE AROUND SAFELY AND CHEAPLY AND EFFICIENTLY IN A CITY SHOULD NOT BE KEPT FOR THE PRIVILEGE WHO HAD HAVE CARS.

I MOVE AROUND IN PUBLIC TRANSPORT FOR THE LARGER PART OF MY LIFE.

I THINK THERE SHOULD BE MORE MONEY GOING TOWARDS REVAMPING AND MAKING OUR PUBLIC TRANSPORT MORE ACCESSIBLE, MORE BETTER.

AND I THINK THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT PART.

AND THEN IF MAYOR WALSH IS LISTENING, YOU KNOW, WE CAN TAKE SOME CUES FROM NEW YORK.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, NEW YORK CITY HAD RECENTLY DECIDED TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF STREET VENDING LICENSES, RIGHT?

SYRACUSE IS A DIVERSE CITY.

WE SHOULD DEVELOP INFRASTRUCTURE FOR MY MICROENTREPRENEURSHIP.

FOR THAT REASON IT WOULD BE GREAT TO HAVE FUNDS THROUGH CITGO AND OTHERS TO ALLOW FOR MICRO ENTREPRENEURSHIP TO CREATE INTERGENERATIONAL WEALTH WITHIN OUR URBAN ENVIRONMENT.

LIKE THEY'VE DONE THE HUGE FOOD PARK OR FOOD COURT.

SIMILAR INITIATIVES, I THINK, WOULD BE REALLY GOOD FOR THE COMMUNITY.

BUT I DO THINK THERE IS LOTS OF GOOD WORK, ESPECIALLY THE 900 PAID JOB TRAINING OF YOUTH.

>> ANIRBAN, YOU ARE THE ECONOMIST IN THE CROWD SO I WANT TO PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT AND SAY THIS: SYRACUSE IN PARTICULAR IS FACING A $40 MILLION SHORTFALL FROM ITS PREVIOUS BUDGET.

AND IT HAD TO FURLOUGH EMPLOYEES.

SO IS THIS A SPACE, A TIME, WHERE SYRACUSE CAN SORT OF PLUG IN GAPS THAT HAVE COME ABOUT FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS?

AND PERHAPS ROLL BACK A LITTLE BIT ON INITIATIVES, SORT OF DEAL WITH THE BASIC BREAD AND BUTTER MAKING SURE THE BUDGET IS THERE AND BY THE WAY, I DO THINK MAYOR WALSH IS LISTENING TODAY BECAUSE I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HIM YESTERDAY.

SO SAY SOMETHING GOOD.

>> WITH THE SYRACUSE.COM LIST THAT I AM GOING BY AS OF NOW, RIGHT?

THERE IS A LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT IS SET ASIDE FOR USING IN EXPENDITURES, GENERAL EXPENDITURES FOR THE CITY, RIGHT?

I WAS GOING THROUGH SOME OLD REPORTING AND APPARENTLY TWO YEARS EARLIER WE WERE LOOKING AT A SURPLUS BUT WE ARE NOW IN A DEFICIT.

AND THERE IS MONEY.

THERE IS ABOUT $30 MILLION KIND OF KEPT AWAY FOR GENERAL EXPENSES.

>> THE RESERVE.

>> BUT I DO THINK JOB CREATION IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT WAYS, RIGHT?

INFRASTRUCTURE BUILDING CREATES JOBS.

>> ESPECIALLY IN CONNECTION WITH COVID.

BEN, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> WHAT IS GOING TO BE SUSTAINABLE?

AND WHEN YOU WATER DOWN-- THIS IS A LOT OF MONEY.

BUT WHEN YOU SPREAD IT ALL ACROSS AND YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE EVERYBODY HAPPY THAT FILLED OUT THE SURVEY, THAT, I THINK, SPEAKS WELL TO YOUR VOTING NUMBERS BUT ARE YOU REALLY DOING WHAT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CITY?

AND I AGREE WITH THE POINT OF, YOU SHOULD HAVE-- YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET ON RELIABLE TRANSPORTATION AND GET TO WORK WITHOUT HAVING TO GO BUY A BRAND NEW CAR.

THAT SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT.

AND YEAH, PEOPLE ARE DOING BETTER FINANCIALLY RIGHT NOW, BUT THAT SUPPORT IS GOING TO STOP.

>> YEAH, AND SO WHAT IS BEST FOR THE CITY AS A WHOLE AS OPPOSED TO CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHICS OR COMMUNITIES?

SO WE ARE GOING TO MOVE ON TO AN INTERNATIONAL STORY.

THE 20-YEAR COMBAT MISSION IN AFGHANISTAN IS SET TO END JUST OVER A MONTH FROM NOW.

YOU MAY RECALL THAT THE ORIGINAL MISSION WAS TO TOPPLE THE DEVELOPMENT PLAN, WHICH TALIBAN WHICH PROVIDED SANCTUARY FOR AL-QAEDA BEHIND THE 9/11 ATTACKS.

BUT WITH 95% OF AMERICAN TROOPS WITHDRAWN, THE TALIBAN IS CLAIMING MORE AND MORE TERRITORY AND WREAKING MORE AND MORE HAVOC.

BEN, SOME INTELLIGENCE REPORTS SAY THE TALIBAN WILL TAKE OVER THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT IN UNDER TWO YEARS.

WAS IT A MISTAKE TO END THE MISSION AND TO WITHDRAW.

>> I THINK THE IDEA WAS NOT A MISTAKE, BUT I THINK ALL INDICATORS ARE SHOWING IT IS A MISTAKE IN THE CURRENT FORMAT WHICH, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE ARE BASICALLY HANDING THAT COUNTRY, AFGHANISTAN, OVER TO THE TALIBAN WHICH, IF OUR VIEWERS REMEMBER BACK IN THE LATE 90s, AND ALL THE WAY UP TO 2001, TALIBAN, THEY WERE RULING AFGHANISTAN FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES.

I WAS WORKING ON 9/11 WHEN THAT OCCURRED, AS A POLICE OFFICER.

I WAS WORKING THE DAY AFTER 9/11 OCCURRED.

EVERY CALL I WENT ON AFTER 9/11 WAS A BOMB CALL.

AND I DON'T WANT TO GO BACK TO THAT.

I DON'T THINK THE AMERICANS WANT TO GO BACK TO THAT.

I DON'T THINK AFGHANISTAN WANTS TO GO BACK TO THAT.

I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE REASSESSED.

>> SO, AND I'M TRYING TO SORT THROUGH YOUR COMMENTS.

WAS IT A FAILED MISSION?

A MISSION THAT HAS BEEN ABANDONED TOO QUICKLY?

YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> WELL, I DO THINK 20 YEARS IS A RIDICULOUSLY LONG TIME TO BE OCCUPYING ANOTHER COUNTRY.

I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S THE ANSWER BUT JUST WITHDRAWING AND HANDING OVER A COUNTRY TO AN ORGANIZATION THAT HAS SOME IDEOLOGICAL CONFLICTS WITH HOW THE AMERICANS THINK AND WHAT HAPPENS-- YOU KNOW, IF WE ARE NOT ADDRESSING IT ON ANOTHER SOIL, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE ADDRESSING IT ON OUR SOIL.

THAT'S WHAT WE LEARNED ON 9/11 F. WE DON'T LOOK BACK HISTORICALLY AT WHAT HAPPENS, HISTORY REPEATS.

>> UNLESS THERE IS A POLITICAL SOLUTION.

TARA, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> ON THE ONE HAND, I AGREE WITH YOU.

THE WITHDRAWAL SORT OF, THIS VERY IMMEDIATE WITHDRAWAL WITHOUT WHAT APPEARS TO BE A CLEAR EXIT STRATEGY IN TERMS OF TRANSITION IS DEFINITELY A PROBLEM.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THE FACT THAT WE HAVE BEEN THERE 20 YEARS.

WE STARTED OUT, YOU KNOW, AS HAS BEEN STATED, TRYING TO REMOVE THE TALIBAN, MAKE SURE THERE IS NO MORE ASSISTANCE FOR AL-QAEDA, ET CETERA.

20 YEARS LATER, WE HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN BASICALLY NATION BUILDING EVEN THOUGH WE SAID WE WEREN'T.

WE HAVE BEEN TRAINING THE AFGHAN MILITARY.

WE, YOU KNOW, SUPPORTED GOVERNMENTS RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY.

AND SUPPOSEDLY, AFTER THESE 20 YEARS, THE AFGHAN MILITARY AND THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO STAND ON ITS OWN.

AND IT'S VERY CLEAR THEY CANNOT.

AND SO YOU HAVE TO ASK THE QUESTION, WHICH IS THE QUESTION I KEPT ASKING, WELL, HOW LONG IS LONG ENOUGH?

ANOTHER 20 YEARS.

AND THAT SEEMS TO BE WHERE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS COMING FROM, IS THAT THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANY GOOD WAY TO BRING THIS TO A CLOSE.

WE HAVE DONE, IN A SENSE, ALL AT THAT TIME WE CAN DO TO SHORE UP THE GOVERNMENT, TO TRAIN THE MILITARY.

AND IT SEEMS LIKE THE MINUTE AMERICA LEAVES, EVERYTHING WE SUPPOSEDLY HAVE BEEN DOING FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS, FALLS APART.

SO HOW LONG IS LONG ENOUGH?

>> WHICH SUGGESTS THAT AMERICA WAS BASICALLY HOLDING UP THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.

AND I'M REMINDED OF A COUNTRY MUSIC SONG-- I FORGET WHO SINGS IT.

I THINK IT WAS KENNY ROGERS.

YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHEN TO HOLD 'EM, WHEN TO FOLD 'EM, WHEN TO WALK AWAY AND WHEN TO RUN.

THAT'S A LESS FANCY WAY OF SAYING WHAT SHOULD BE THE PRINCIPLE AT THIS POINT OF AMERICAN ENGAGEMENT ABROAD BECAUSE WE CAN'T FIGHT EVERY WAR.

WE CAN NO LONGER POLICE THE WORLD.

AND THE PUBLIC REALLY DOESN'T HAVE THE STOMACH FOR IT.

SO DO YOU HAVE THOUGHTS ON THAT?

>> LET'S LOOK AT THE HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE.

THIS IS THE FIFTH AFGHAN WAR, THE FIFTH TIME A FOREIGN POWER.

THE ENGLISH TRIED IT THREE TIMES, THE RUSSIANS AND NOW THE U.S. FIVE TIMES IT HAS FAILED.

POWERS HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO CONTROL THE PUBLIC AFFAIRS, INTERNAL AFFAIRS OF THE COUNTRY.

I ALSO WANT TO REMIND VIEWERS THAT AT THE TIME MANY SCHOLARS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW AGREED UNANIMOUSLY THAT THIS WAS A UNILATERAL AGGRESSION ON THE PART OF THE UNITED STATES THAT ARE NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL LAW.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF SUPPORT FOR THAT.

THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER DISCUSSION WE CAN HAVE ON ANOTHER DAY, PERHAPS A BORING LEGAL DISCUSSION.

BUT LONG STORY SHORT, I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT MY VIEWERS TO THIS BRILLIANT BRILLIANT DATABASE THAT THE WATSON INSTITUTE AT BROWN UNIVERSITY CREATED.

THE COST OF WAR DATABASE.

AND IT LOOKS AT THE TOTAL COSTS OF ALL THE NINE 11 WARS, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, SOMALIA AND SO ON.

AND IF YOU JUST LOOK AT AFGHANISTAN, THE NUMBERS ARE MIND BOGGLING.

THE UNITED STATES PAID ABOUT, TAXPAYERS PAID ABOUT $2 TRILLION FOR THIS WAR, A QUARTER MILLION CIVILIANS DIED.

LONG STORY SHORT, LIKE I THINK THE WITHDRAWAL IS A GOOD IDEA, BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HELPED THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER CIVILIANS AND THEY SHOULD BE BROUGHT TO THE UNITED STATES WITH A VISA PROGRAM.

>> OKAY.

ABSOLUTELY.

AND WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT LATER.

BUT NOW WE HAVE TO GET TO THE GRADE BOOKS AND SO BEN, YOUR F. >> OKAY.

MY F GOES TO KEVIN McCARTHY FOR NOT MAKING TIME TO HEAR FROM THE OFFICERS WHO SAVED ALL OF THE LEGISLATORS LIVES WHILE SOME OF THEM MADE THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE.

ANY OPPOSITION TO DETERMINING WHAT HAPPENED LEADING UP TO THIS ATTACK ON OUR DEMOCRACY AND THE FABRIC OF OUR DEMOCRACY SHOULD NOT BE A PARTISAN THING.

SO IN SHORT, WHAT I'LL SAY IS YOU CAN'T BACK THE BLUE IF ALL THEY SEE IS YOUR BACK.

>> OKAY, WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

ANIRBAN VERY QUICKLY.

>> F TO ACTIVATION BLIZZARD FOR HARBORING WHO IS TILE WORK ENVIRONMENT.

RECENTLY THEIR EMPLOYEES WALKED OUT AND PROTESTED AGAINST GENDER AND PAID DISCRIMINATION.

>> MY F GOES TO THE STATE OF NEW YORK FOR FAILURE TO EFFECTIVELY IMPLEMENT THE RENT RELIEF PROGRAM.

>> GREAT.

MY A, GOES TO TWO OFFICERS AND A GOOD SAMARITAN SAVED A WOMAN FROM A SINKING CAR IN FLORIDA LAST WEEK.

NOW THE GOOD SAMARITAN CALLED THE POLICE.

TWO OFFICERS RESPONDED AND THE GOOD SAMARITAN WERE ABLE TO RESCUE THE WOMAN FROM THE SINKING CAR.

>> ANIRBAN.

>> MY A GOES TO THE EXTRAORDINARY SIMONE BILES WHO REMOVED HERSELF FROM THE OLYMPIC FINALS AND THE COMMENT WAS WE WHOLE MATTEREDLY SUPPORT HER DECISION AND SUPPORT HER BRAVERY IN HER WELL-BEING.

>> AND SHINING THE LIGHT ON MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT OF THE ATHLETES, ESPECIALLY NOW.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> TARA.

>> MY A GOES TO THE NORWEGIAN WOMEN'S HAND BALL TEAM WHICH REFUSED TO WEAR THE RIDICULOUSLY SKIMPY BIKINI UNIFORM REQUIRED BY THE EUROPEAN HAND BALL ASSOCIATION.

THEY WERE PROTESTING THE VERY REVEALING COSTUME WHILE THE MEN ARE ALLOWED TO WEAR TANK TOPS AND SHORTS.

ENTERTAINER PINK GETS AN A BECAUSE SHE HAS OFFERED TO PAY THE FINE THAT WAS ASSESSED TO THE TEAM.

>> AMAZING WHAT THE OLYMPICS ARE DOING TO NOW ENGAGE US IN THE POLITICS OF SPORTS.

SO ARE YOU ALL WATCHING THEM, THE OLYMPICS?

>> I DEFINITELY AM.

>> I AM.

>> I AM NOT BUT I SHOULD.

THAT'S ALL FOR TONIGHT.

WE ARE SO GLAD YOU JOINED US AND WOULD REALLY LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU.

WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN.

TO WATCH THIS SHOW AGAIN, GO TO WCNY.ORG.

I'M NINA MOORE.

FOR ALL OF US HERE AT IVORY TOWER, GOOD NIGHT.