GARY: Next on Start Up, we head to Waterford, Michigan to meet up with Josh and Valerie Clark, the owners of Apogee Air, a company that provides flight training, aircraft management, and pilot services.

All of this and more is next on Start Up.

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MAN: We just got an order from Dinosaur, Colorado.

ANNOUNCER: Build a website to help reach more customers.

WOMAN: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, one more.

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Thryv is a proud supporter of Start Up.

ANGUS: Being able to come to work every day and be passionate about what I'm doing and take what I learn in the garden and bring it to the marketplace is really enjoyable to me.

ANNOUNCER: More than 60% of sales in Amazon's store come from independent sellers like Angus at Garden Tutor.

Amazon, a proud supporter of Start Up.

ANNOUNCER: Small businesses are at the heart of Michigan's downtowns and neighborhood business districts.

The Michigan Economic Development Corporation offers programs to both new and existing businesses.

With an abundant workforce and access to statewide resources, Michigan welcomes businesses from around the world.

ANNOUNCER: Spectrum Business is a proud supporter of Start Up.

Providing connectivity for small businesses with internet, phone and mobile solutions available.

Information available at Spectrum dot com slash business.

♪ GARY: My name is Gary Bredow.

I'm a documentary filmmaker and an entrepreneur.

As the country continues to recover from extraordinary challenges, small business owners are showing us why they are the backbone of the American economy.

We've set out for our 11th consecutive season talking with a wide range of diverse business owners to better understand how they've learned to adapt, innovate and even completely reinvent themselves.

♪ This is Start Up.

♪ Flight training is an essential part of the aviation industry and involves teaching aspiring pilots the skills and knowledge needed to safely operate an aircraft.

These businesses are critical components to the aviation industry and require a high level of expertise and attention to detail to ensure the safety and efficiency of flight operations.

The cost of obtaining a pilot's license in the US can vary depending on several factors, such as the type of license, the location, and individual circumstances.

However, the estimated cost for a private pilot's license can range from eight to $12,000.

While a commercial pilot's license can cost upwards of $70,000 or more.

Today, I'm heading to Waterford, Michigan to meet up with Josh and Valerie Clark, the founders of Apogee Air, a company that provides flight training, aircraft management, and pilot services.

From what I know, they built this business from the ground up, making countless sacrifices to see their dream turn into a reality.

I'm excited to meet Josh and Valerie and learn more about this incredible business.

What is Apogee Air?

VALERIE: Apogee Air is a full-service aircraft management company.

Everything from helping you acquire your airplanes to managing them.

All of the maintenance, the cleaning, the crewing.

And also now we're all- offering charter.

If you wanted to fly your own aircraft, we will train you to fly your own airplane.

But yeah, we're basically from A to Z, everything aircraft related.

(laughs) GARY: Awesome.

Take me back to the first time that you realized that you wanted to be a pilot.

JOSH: Actually, it was when my stepdad, he had a very good friend here at this airport, and he was the director of flight operations for Volkswagen's flight department.

And he drove me by the airport one day, he took me inside the airplane and kind of let me sit up front and that was it.

GARY: You were hooked?

JOSH: Yeah, that was it.

GARY: There might be a bit of a misconception out there that if you're a pilot, you're making tons of money.

Is that the case?

JOSH: No.

It would scare people to know how much pilots made eight, nine years, ten years ago when you were flying even in the airlines and the regionals.

GARY: What's a rough estimate range of- JOSH: 25 to $30,000 a year.

That's what you were getting paid, so- GARY: Wow.

JOSH: Yeah.

And that's coming out of probably undergrad, university, plus another $100,000 in flight training expenses.

So it's almost like going to med school.

GARY: That's insane.

JOSH: Yeah.

So it- GARY: And the return on the investment just isn't there.

So you have to find your sort of niche or make your own opportunity in aviation?

JOSH: Yeah, you have to go knock on doors.

♪ GARY: How did the idea come up for this?

VALERIE: He was flying for a cargo aviation company here.

We moved to West Michigan and worked there for a few years, and then we went to Colorado and lived there for about a year.

And now by that time, I have two kids, two toddlers, and I'm pregnant with the third and living in Vale.

And I just never saw my husband.

So I was basically by myself.

He was in Tahiti or something, you know, he was always gone, so- And he said to me, we'd saved up a bunch of money to buy a house and he said, "Go check out that house, you know, that we wanted to look at."

And I said, "Josh, I'm actually on my way "to the airport right now, "to Denver, and I am going to Michigan, "and I'm going to look for a house "in Troy next to my mom.

I'm- I can't do this.

I can't live here."

And- GARY: You wanted to be by family with these kids.

VALERIE: I wasn't seeing him anyways.

GARY: Right.

VALERIE: I was used to not seeing him.

I love him, but I knew that I didn't want to be there.

GARY: Yep.

VALERIE: I needed family.

I needed help.

GARY: Okay.

I was alone, and I just, I was at my wits end by that point.

GARY: Yeah.

JOSH: Valerie, she was trying to, again, never push me to do anything but just say, look, this probably isn't going to work.

And I realized crossing the ocean, going to Europe or something one night, GARY: Mm-hmm.

JOSH: That I'm watching my kids grow up on FaceTime.

GARY: Yeah.

JOSH: So, I'm like, this isn't going to work for me either.

So, I had some friends that work for Cirrus Aircraft.

And one very good friend, my best friend, he said, "You know, you need to come work for us."

Went through a bit of an interview process there, realized that wasn't for us, but during that, we decided that maybe opening our own training center, using them as a platform, as a partner, might be a good idea.

So, we decided to put the order in on an airplane we couldn't afford.

We had no idea how we were going to buy this- at the time half a million dollar Cirrus.

GARY: And was that part of the buy in to be part of Cirrus?

JOSH: Well, you had to own an airplane.

GARY: Got it.

JOSH: The training center had to have an airplane.

They don't pay for anything or give you anything.

It's just more of a- the partnership is pretty strong.

There's a lot of exclusivity with them, and- But yes, we had to buy an airplane.

And we were in a tiny apartment in Colorado and, you know, scraping together everything to figure it out.

GARY: Yeah.

JOSH: Valerie, her uncle, was gracious enough to at least personally guarantee the plane, so we could get a loan for it.

GARY: That's faith.

JOSH: And we took the jump.

Left in, I guess 2015, December of 2015.

And threw all of our money at it.

GARY: In very simple sort of layman's terms, what is the actual opportunity that Cirrus was offering?

If they weren't going to give you a plane or offer any money or really anything, what was the opportunity?

JOSH: They give us exclusivity.

I mean, they will not let anyone do what we do in this area as long as we continue to support it the way we have.

I'm flight training someone, we help them maybe get into ownership of a Cirrus.

GARY: And that's the product.

That's what you're selling.

JOSH: Yeah.

So that was what we had, our platform that we were going to jump off of.

Get people in the door, show them the Cirrus, get them in the plane- GARY: Mm-hmm.

JOSH: And then maybe have them purchase one and then help them, a path to ownership for them in the airplane.

That was pretty much it.

That was where we were gonna live.

GARY: Did you have a lot of fear in the back of your mind, like, how are we going to do- was there any apprehension, I guess, because you were still going to have to hustle, right?

Still going to have to make that opportunity work.

JOSH: Right.

Yeah, no, it was terrifying for a few years.

GARY: Okay.

JOSH: I didn't, you know- I think we probably, we all- both of us woke up in cold sweats constantly, or at least I did, trying to figure out where the next customer was going to come from.

GARY: Yeah.

JOSH: And then it's just a fear you learn to live with and it never goes away, it just- GARY: Entrepreneurship.

JOSH: Yeah.

It just gets bigger and you worry about other things.

GARY: Did the hangar space and everything come with that or you just had to have a plane and a place to put it?

VALERIE: We had to find a hanger.

We had to find an office.

GARY: Wow.

VALERIE: And an airplane.

GARY: But the benefit for them was that they would have representation here.

VALERIE: Yes.

GARY: You guys would be an official representative of the company, but you had, again, another huge buy in.

VALERIE: Yes.

I think we needed about maybe 120 grand total.

GARY: Okay.

Did you have that saved for the house?

VALERIE: We had money saved for the house, but then we didn't have anything to live on, so we were like (laughs), what are we going to do?

So, we maxed out all of our credit cards because we moved from Colorado, had a baby, and started the company all in April of 2016.

GARY: My gosh.

Wow.

(Valerie laughs) VALERIE: So really lived off of, I would look up how to live off of, feed our family off of a dollar a day.

Whatever we had to do to get by.

Josh was a one man show here.

He did everything.

He cleaned the planes, did the training, did the billing.

He did everything at first.

And we were making nothing.

And Josh went on this trip for a week with one of our customers and wouldn't charge him.

And I said, "You were gone for a whole week and you're not charging this guy?"

And he said, "But he paid for my golfing, and he paid for everything."

And I'm like- GARY: Golf doesn't buy diapers.

VALERIE: That's exactly what I said.

And I'm like, "You were away from work.

"We need to feed this family.

"So you can't do this stuff for free anymore.

"I am going to be billing people from now on.

"I am going to be "scheduling people from now on.

"And you just do the flying and taking care of the plane stuff."

GARY: What'd he say?

VALERIE: I think it was a huge relief for him.

GARY: I can imagine.

Yeah.

VALERIE: Immediately we started finally doing better.

JOSH: Having a very close interface with our customers, sitting in the cockpit with them.

We call it like a cockpit confessional.

We hear a lot, and they hear a lot from us, right?

GARY: Yeah.

JOSH: So having that really close interaction made it also hard for me.

GARY: Hard to bill for that time.

JOSH: Yeah, it was very hard.

So she just took that over at that point and made it her own, and it sort of kind of changed the course.

I wouldn't have been able to do it.

I don't have that part of the brain.

This business would have failed early on had she not figured it out.

GARY: Yeah.

JOSH: And she's really good at it.

(laughs) So, who knew that's how it would have gone?

But the fact that it did, she kind of fills all my weaknesses is probably why we're sitting here.

♪ GARY: Once you came into the company and started focusing on billing and adding revenue, I want to understand, or help viewers understand exactly, what are you charging for?

VALERIE: We had a couple of planes under our management, so they would get a monthly management fee.

And then on top of that, a lot of our customers travel for business.

So to get to their businesses, they would need a pilot to do those day trips.

GARY: Got it.

So, they own a plane, but they're not coming here and flying it necessarily.

VALERIE: Not necessarily.

And sometimes if they are flying it, they don't want to fly on the days that they're going on their business trip.

GARY: Oh, sure.

Talk about the flight school.

VALERIE: The flight school is really only for the Cirrus brand, so most of our customers- GARY: Got it.

VALERIE: All of our customers are only training with us if they want to fly that airplane.

So, they're either planning on buying that plane or renting it.

GARY: How often are you putting pilots through the Cirrus training program?

VALERIE: We probably, at any given time, have like, a solid five to 10 students that we're working with.

GARY: Okay.

Yeah, that's a lot.

VALERIE: We're more quality than quantity.

GARY: Mm-hmm.

VALERIE: We're going to be three times the cost of any other flight school.

So, you come here because you want that plane.

It's the safest aircraft on the market.

It's the plane with a parachute.

A trainer is $600 grand, so that's a lot more than any other trainer that you would fly in.

It has A/C, all the bells and whistles.

It's luxury.

GARY: What's your affiliation with Apogee Air?

JEFF: Around 2016, I was almost finished with my pilot's license, and I came over to Apogee to start to learn how to fly in a Cirrus.

And that's how I got started with them.

GARY: What do you think about the company overall, about Apogee Air?

JEFF: They are a fantastic company.

I'm a small business owner myself.

Service is everything, and they take amazing care of their clients.

They have done an amazing job of making sure that their services are just top notch.

And if you have top notch services, people will come.

GARY: I've been eyeballing that black and red SF50 all day.

So, when Josh asked if I wanted to take her out for a spin, I jumped at the opportunity.

Although I've flown a lot, I've never been in a private plane.

And it was a surreal experience.

Being up in the sky, barely above the clouds, and actually controlling the plane myself for a few moments was an experience that I will never forget.

I can see exactly why Josh and Valerie are so passionate about this business.

♪ GARY: How much does the flight simulator come into play, and is that a true, real representation of what it's like to fly?

JOSH: It's a trainer.

It's training you on certain aspects of flying.

It's not going to teach you how to take off... GARY: Okay.

JOSH: Really.

It's not going to teach you how to land because- GARY: Basic controls.

JOSH: Yeah.

It's teaching you how to read instrumentation, interpret what you're seeing, maybe program certain things into the avionics.

GARY: Got it.

JOSH: So a lot of buttonology type of things and scanning when you're learning how to hand fly, because hand flying is something, as technology gets better, hand flying is something that starts to degrade a lot with pilots GARY: Oh.

JOSH: Because they're on the autopilot constantly.

So that's what it's helpful for.

♪ PASCAL: Whenever you're ready, you can push this all the way forward.

GARY: All right.

PASCAL: All right, now you're steering with your feet.

Pull back.

Yep.

And keep it right around there, and then a little bit right.

Keep it right.

So usually when we do these sim lessons, I sit in the back there and I can move you around on the screen and everything and it makes it a lot easier 'cause I can change your weather conditions, I can fail any equipment on here.

So that's what the sim is really good for.

We don't really use it to learn how to fly.

GARY: More for failure.

PASCAL: We use it for training purposes.

If anything goes wrong, what do we do?

And procedural things.

GARY: This is fun.

It's like the ultimate video game ever.

PASCAL: Oh, yeah.

So, try to go this direction now.

GARY: Okay.

PASCAL: Do you see the airport?

It's right over here.

GARY: I do.

PASCAL: Yeah.

So that's where we're going to land.

GARY: Oh.

That was the worst landing.

PASCAL: You survived it.

You know, you survived.

GARY: Did I?

PASCAL: Yeah, you survived.

Otherwise, the screen goes, like, upside down everything.

So, you did it.

GARY: It's really niche, sort of.

VALERIE: Yes.

GARY: This isn't something that you market to the general public.

VALERIE: Right.

GARY: It's a small population.

How do you grow this business?

How do you acquire customers?

VALERIE: It's all referral based.

GARY: I would assume a lot of people in that world know each other.

VALERIE: Yes.

And- GARY: It's like, you're getting a plane, call Valerie.

Call Josh.

Type of thing.

VALERIE: Yes.

And if you have a plane and you want us to rent it out, GARY: Mm-hmm.

VALERIE: We tell you, okay, well, bring us your friends.

We'll rent it out for you, GARY: Yeah.

VALERIE: But you're going to have to bring us your friends.

They're all very successful entrepreneurs.

They'd be sitting in the cockpit with Josh for hours and going on trips with him and giving him advice on what he should be doing and how to run the business and everything.

And that has been huge for us.

Our entrepreneurial organization has been like here.

♪ GARY: What was your experience in dealing with them?

How are they as people and as business owners?

EVAN: It's amazing.

So as people, Josh and Valerie have become among my best friends.

GARY: Yeah.

EVAN: So it's been more than just a business relationship.

It's been a close personal relationship and a great friendship.

But as a business, even perhaps more importantly, they've pumped life back into my flying career.

GARY: Nice.

So you kind of took a bit of a hiatus for a bit?

EVAN: Yeah.

I wasn't doing it very much.

GARY: Yeah.

EVAN: It's hard to do your regular job... GARY: Yep.

EVAN: And your family and your children and all of those things and then also have time to deal with plane maintenance.

GARY: Right.

Right.

EVAN: Pulling planes in and out of hangers, getting fuel.

GARY: Yep.

EVAN: All of those things take a lot of time.

GARY: Yeah, definitely.

EVAN: So this is a turnkey operation.

You show up and you fly.

GARY: It's an aspirational sort of thing for a lot of small business owners.

And on our show, we talk to a whole range of small business owners.

Any advice to somebody out there starting out that may have this as a dream?

EVAN: Well, you got to get good training.

If you want to fly, the most important thing is good training, good instructors... GARY: Yep.

EVAN: And high quality, newer aircraft.

Safety is first.

And safety comes first with this company.

GARY: Yep.

EVAN: So that's why they've been so successful because they take care of their customers.

They always put their customers first.

And anybody that wants to learn how to fly gets a great experience.

GARY: Where is Apogee Air as you sit today?

VALERIE: We have 25 airplanes on our fleet.

I'd say we're probably at about eight million in revenue right now.

JOSH: We decided to become an air carrier.

So we're (laughs), you know, to get the air carrier certification- GARY: What is a air carrier?

JOSH: An airline, essentially.

So, we can- GARY: Oh!

JOSH: You can charter aircraft from us and fly somewhere, right?

So, to do that, it's very, very expensive, and we decided to take that jump.

And that was scary, but it was a piece of the puzzle that was missing.

GARY: When did you do that?

JOSH: Just end of last year is when we got it done.

GARY: Wow.

So, this is brand new.

JOSH: Yeah.

So, we're kind of in the middle of it, but we, I think got through it.

Now we're at the exciting point where it's just time to get our- some of our aircraft added onto the certificate that we have and start flying people.

GARY: Wow.

JOSH: And start generating revenue from it.

It'll be a year or so before we probably turn a profit on it.

I hope that's all it takes, but making sure you don't grow too quickly into something.

We've learned our lesson on it for sure, just, and our customers would warn us about it as well.

We have great customers.

They wanted to pay us... GARY: Yeah.

JSOH: Early, in advance to make sure we didn't run out of money.

That's how great our customers are.

GARY: It's an incredible story, but if you could go back and do anything differently, what would you do?

VALERIE: I don't think that we would have done anything differently.

I think that- GARY: Crazy how that works, isn't it?

VALERIE: It is.

Every time we've fallen, that's what's made us stronger.

Every single time.

2020, my uncle actually had passed away at the end of February in 2020.

GARY: The co-owner of the other plane?

VALERIE: Yes.

Which made us default on the loan.

And the bank made us, because he was the signer, they made us pay it in full.

And this is during the shutdown of 2020.

(laughs) GARY: Wow.

VALERIE: We lost some customers at that time and we really fell flat.

He actually was a partner on two planes with us at that time.

GARY: So, you lost the planes?

VALERIE: We lost the one plane.

They bought us out for $1.

It was terrible.

And the other plane, we had to use all of our funds, we'd take some loans and everything to get purchase it outright.

Honestly, that really made us learn a lot and just get stronger.

We've learned a lot and come a long way and I- I don't think that I would exchange any experience that we've had.

GARY: Where can this company be in the next five years?

JOSH: Well, hopefully exactly what it is, at least.

GARY: So, functioning.

JOSH: If it stays- If it stays right where it is, GARY: Yeah.

JOSH: I think we would be very happy.

GARY: That's the most sensible answer I've ever heard.

(laughs) JOSH: But if it grows, I just hope we do it a little smarter than we have.

GARY: Yeah.

JOSH: Because we let it grow too quickly.

So we just want to keep it under control, maybe.

And I know we'll probably add more aircraft, but I think we'll lose some as well with the economy.

GARY: Sure.

JOSH: And I just wanna- I would be happy if it's exactly the way it is now.

(laughs) GARY: Should we buy a house or a plane?

This is not a question that I've heard very often, or ever, over the last eleven years of hosting Start Up.

But metaphorically, this is a question that I think many of us can relate with.

Do I invest in immediate comfort or in the chance at long term success?

Do we really need to buy a house?

Or does a small apartment serve our basic needs while we build something bigger than ourselves?

Entrepreneurs have to make incredibly difficult decisions on a daily basis, and the consequences of those decisions, good or bad, will always have a profound impact on their future.

Josh and Valerie bet on themselves.

And had they opted for comfort in the early days of Apogee Air, as tempting as it may have been, I probably wouldn't be sitting here today.

and the company as a whole may not even exist.

They chose the plane, and that plane became the foundation for a growing aviation empire.

This story says so much about the level of trust, support and belief that Josh and Valerie have for each other.

Something that's absolutely essential to maintaining a successful marriage or business partnership.

Every decision matters.

Every sacrifice we make matters.

Every comfort that we forego for the hope of a better future matters.

Your decision may not be between a plane or a house, but always remember that short-term sacrifice will always be worth the long-term gain.

For more information, visit our website and search episodes for Apogee Air.

Next time on Start Up, we head to Harrison Township, Michigan to meet up with Brian LeFeve, a life coach focused on human optimization and helping individuals live their best life.

Be sure to join us next time on Start Up.

Would you like to learn more about the show or maybe nominate a business?

Visit our website at startup-usa.com and connect with us on social media.

GARY: (gasps) What happened?

PASCAL: I put the bird strikes on.

GARY: Oh!

WOMAN: Yay.

(laughs) GARY: Thank you so much.

WOMAN 2: You're welcome.

WOMAN 3: Next on Start Up.

(laughs) WOMAN 4: Gary Bredow, superstar.

Okay.

GARY: With no nose.

ANNOUNCER: Spectrum Business is a proud supporter of Start Up.

Providing connectivity for small businesses with internet, phone and mobile solutions available.

Information available at Spectrum dot com slash business.

ANNOUNCER: Small businesses are at the heart of Michigan's downtowns and neighborhood business districts.

The Michigan Economic Development Corporation offers programs to both new and existing businesses.

With an abundant workforce and access to statewide resources, Michigan welcomes businesses from around the world.

TOYIN: Food is my love language.

If you think about it food is really shared humanity.

It doesn't matter who you are we've all go to eat.

ANNOUNCER: More than 60% of sales in Amazon's store come from independent sellers like Toyin at Iya Foods.

Amazon, a proud supporter of Start Up.

ANNOUNCER: Wearing a lot of hats can bog you down.

Thryv, the all-in-one small business management software can help you manage every aspect of your business, from a single screen with one log in and one dashboard.

Thryv is a proud supporter of Start Up.

ANNOUNCER: The first time you made a sale online with GoDaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named Dinosaur, Colorado.

MAN: We just got an order from Dinosaur, Colorado.

ANNOUNCER: Build a website to help reach more customers.

WOMAN: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, one more.

ANNOUNCER: Learn more at GoDaddy dot com.