Thanks for tuning in.

This week, our guest is Republican State Senator Joe Bellino, the ranking minority chair of the Senate Transportation Committee.

Our lead story, Mr. Trump visits Grand Rapids and the Democrats are not pleased.

Around the OTR table this week, Chuck Stokes, Zoe Clark and Craig Mauger sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the Record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in part by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency, partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and public policy engagement.

Learn more at MartinWaymire.com.

And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome to Studio C on this Friday morning.

As we do another edition of Off the Record, Donald Trump in Grand Rapids.

Look you, you got to cover it.

And I did get to cover it.

It was quite an event.

All of the Republican activists and volunteers and leaders of the party were there to hear from their presidential candidate.

And it's all about immigration right now.

This is the border might be 1000 miles away from Michigan, but this is now an issue in every state, according to the Republicans, and they're seeking to make it more of an issue.

What was a lead?

I think the lead of it was two things.

It was a double barrel lead, one being that Donald Trump is saying that what is happening at the southern border is country changing, while also he continues to use this very intense rhetoric, doubling down on the fact that immigrants, he says, who commit crimes in the United States are animals.

He says they're not humans.

And he's standing by that.

He's criticizing Democrats for bashing him over that.

And this is where he's at.

He's found an issue he thinks that he can be successful with.

But he's also using this path of rhetoric that could be quite dangerous.

To him.

Its, I mean, dog whistles right, in every possible way.

And aside from talking about immigration, I mean, he's sort of sticking to this playbook that I think some group of Republicans think is going to be a winning message.

Right.

So he's talking about EVs.

He's talking about sort of the strength of America in the world stage and that he's going to be able to change it and bringing up references to World War III.

I mean, it is a very dark and stark and dangerous sort of worldview that he is that he is putting out there.

And, you know, when you've got all of these sheriffs standing behind him and this sort of law and order message is very much what what we saw on Tuesday.

And what he also said that we all know around this table is that Michigan really is sort of a make or break state when it comes to determining who's going to be president come November 6, 2024.

Now.

And he can read the tea leaves.

He knows as though he said he just lost Michigan by a whisker last time around.

He's very good at hitting hot button issues, issues that resonate with the common person out there.

And he fears that he has hit those issues and he's going to try to ride them as much as he could.

On the flip side of it, Democrats were upset and they accused him of not really being interested in Michigan.

They said he had been here since 2022 and that he just came in riding in on his horse and trying to make the most of a political opportunity.

But from his side of the fence, that's what he's supposed to.

Chuck what's your take?

Do you think there were independent and moderate people sitting out there listening to this message saying I'm not sure yet.

You know, it's that middle that's going to really decide this election.

And we don't know whether it's conservative Democrats or more liberal Republicans how they're going to vote coming down the line.

But he feels as though he has hit those issues that he thinks one certainly will shore up his base and then whether or not he can cross over and get some of those people in the middle, We have to find out.

Biden, on the other hand, feels as though he has hit those women's issues that are very important, that he feels that the center is going to carry about bearing down on the fact that the Supreme Court has voted the wrong way.

And if he has opportunity to remake and change that court, then women are going to be protected in terms of the right.

So they each have their issues.

It's just a question of which one can resonate the most with it.

And down the line come November, see who.

wins.

And each prospective candidates and and their group of supporters, you know, including Gretchen Whitmer on on Biden's side.

You know, she was just in Arizona this week talking about reproduction.

Right.

So I think, you know, Chuck, you're absolutely right that what this is coming down to are the issues and the topics that both of these presidential candidates want to talk about.

And to Craig's point, you know, immigration and border security is where Trump and I think the Republicans see some movement, right?

Because when you actually look at polling among Americans, when asked Republicans and independents think that Republicans do a better job on border security, of course, what we have, you know, haven't talked about is the fact that Donald Trump basically sank what could have been a huge bipartisan border security overhaul deal, basically just within the past couple of months, literally was lobbying Republicans not to vote for something that could have you know, it's not going to fix the problem because immigration is huge, but something that both Democrats and Republicans seem to be able to come to the table on.

Well, the Democrats did a preemptive strike in a Zoom news conference with an led by US Senator Debbie Stabenow.

And it seemed to me they wanted to talk about other stuff.

They made their point that she thought it was disgraceful, I think was the correct quote.

And if it's not, she'll correct me on on.

But he was here trying to exploit politically the death of the young woman at the hands of the person who shouldn't have been here.

The Democrats seem to be caught on this issue in a lot of ways.

I mean, they don't know which way to go.

We were able to ask Governor Whitmer about what Trump was saying about immigration earlier in the week, and she said her answer is fascinating.

She said, we have a real problem at the border, which I was not expecting her to acknowledge.

She said there's a real problem.

Congress and the president need to do something to fix it.

But then she tilted and said Trump was the person that blew up the Senate deal that was forming.

So you've got that element of this, and then you've got a second element that I think we have to talk about, that some of the stuff Trump is saying is just not accurate.

Yes.

And the Republicans are in a spot where they want to nationalize the immigration debate.

There's a political science professor here at Michigan State who I talked to earlier in the week who said in order to nationalize this issue, they've got to find these situations and incidents in every state and then move them up into the national spotlight.

Some of the things Trump was talking about this week in Michigan just weren't true or he didn't describe them accurately and he gave democrats, Well he said he talked to the family.

That's one he also talked about an alleged incident that occurred in Shiawassee County that he the details of how he described it just weren't true.

And he gave Democrats an opening.

They might not be able to battle him on the policy of the border.

They might not want to do that.

But then they can say.

Hey, this guy's making all of this stuff up about other things.

You know, the fascination of where we are media wise on covering stories like this.

It takes a long time for the truth to catch up with the statements.

Saying that that a lie spreads halfway across the world by the time the truth gets its boots on.

Yeah, Yeah.

Especially with the social media thing.

So does this story here in Michigan continue?

Does it have legs or do we move on to something else?

I think it has legs.

Immigration is a huge issue.

It's a huge issue with not just Republicans, also with Democrats.

People are concerned.

Granted, we're this huge melting pot and that's how the strength of this country build itself.

The Biden administration is going to have to get better at articulating this, what diversity is about in this country.

And whether or not that's something that we should be embracing and trumpeting, going down and no pun intended, going down the line that it has been a great strength for this country.

But people are very concerned about how immigrants are coming into this country and whether or not they, quote unquote, are taking jobs.

That's a huge debate because they are doing a lot of jobs that I think the average Americans would not want to do.

And if they weren't doing those jobs, we might have to look again at where our economy.

Let's let's talk about a controversial issue during an election year, proposed possible tax increase on tobacco products.

Let's take a look at this story.

Just after she was first elected governor, Governor Whitmer tried to clamp down on the sale of flavored vaping products to young smokers.

But the courts eventually shot down her effort.

Then, last December, for the first time, the governor opened the door to hiking the state tobacco tax on e-cigarettes and vaping devices based in part on what one of her daughters told her.

She was telling me that she's got friends who are smoking cigarettes to try to get off of vaping.

I'm open to it.

Tim, get the bill drafted, get it turned down and you know we'll negotiate.

Well, the bill is now drafted and awaiting his first hearing in a state Senate committee and the advocates are upbeat about the next move.

In 2020 in Michigan, for example, the use of these products resulted in 2800 hospitalizations for lung related illnesses and 69 deaths in Michigan.

In the Health care cost for all this $5 billion a year, this man runs a coalition of 100 state public health departments, which is strongly pushing lawmakers to say yes to this tax hike.

However, the U.S. tobacco industry has recently fought such efforts in other states to either water down the legislation or kill it outright.

Mr. Steiner reports.

The public is on his side.

62% support the tax hike.

Many kids will either stop using or just even better, not start using.

in the first place.

Saving many, many lives.

Over the year.

He predicts that 50,000 Michigan residents, including teens, would stop smoking if the tax goes up.

That's if State lawmakers put up the votes to do it.

All right.

So will they put up the votes to do this?

It's very possible.

I mean, you've got state government.

Why did you pause?

Well.

It's hard to predict anything that's going to happen in Lansing in an election.

year.

Go ahead, take a shot at it.

Come in and give me an answer that I can play later.

Yeah, I think I mean, I think it's very possible, given the makeup of the legislature at this moment, the state government is looking for additional revenue.

Is this a way to come up with additional revenue while also saying, hey, we're combating a major health problem as your piece kind of laid out?

So I could see the Democratic controlled legislature going with this?

Will they have the votes?

I don't know.

Yeah, it looks like I mean, also a part of this package of bills, right, is like more local control and local governments being able to create some of their own decisions.

And so you've got, you know, like the Michigan Municipal League and folks behind it.

So it could be an interesting push.

I mean, I think there was one piece I read that like $5 billion are.

Spent on health care costs.

And this alone, you know, it's this sort of interesting push, right?

I mean, I remember, like, what a big deal.

Just like smoking in bars when we stopped and it happened.

And then like, folks got pretty used to it.

And I think, like, if you polled people, my guess is most people really enjoy that fact.

And so I just sort of wonder if this is the direction that we're going into.

And so it wouldn't surprise me.

But to Craig's point, I mean, there's going to be so many negotiations and political conversations about everything this year and particularly having a huge budget that needs to get done in the election year.

It'll be interesting to see what conversation burns and who gets behind what bills from now until November.

Speaking of conversations, the governor is promoting comfortable conversations in this town with the publishing.

In July of her book, Chuck, “True Gretch ”.

Do you smell maybe a presidential run somewhere down the line?

You guys not that you want to go into right now, you know, you look everybody feels as though they have a book story and a book in them and she certainly has had an interesting term as governor.

She wants to write her story.

I'm sure she is positioning herself to tell her story for whatever may come down the line.

And I kid about presidential run.

But, you know, we've seen how many politicians do this, whether it's being appointed to a cabinet position or being appointed to a major board down the line.

You're she's trying to prepare herself for when she's not governor.

She still relatively young in terms of political terms.

And I'm sure she doesn't want to just go sit in a rocking chair after this is all done.

July 9th, which just happens to be less than six weeks before the Democratic convention.

There you go.

She has come a long way with a title, A True Gretch.

I remember doing an interview with her years ago when I just slipped and called her Gretch.

She got over all over me.

Like, did she say Absolutely.

Yeah.

She was told by her grandmother, Don't let anybody ever call you Gretch.

And now here is the title of the book.

Just come full circle.

Hope Grandma's not watching from up there.

It speaks to the issue of where I think she is at politically right now in Michigan.

We all know her.

We all are very familiar with her.

Nationally, you look at the polling, she does not have a direct path to running for president right now.

She has to raise her name ID nationally with voters in states all over so they know who she is.

This book will give her an opportunity to tell her story, go on national TV shows, Morning Joe, all of the others, and talk to viewers again.

And I think I mean, I think if she does want to run for the White House, wanted smart move.

Would you believe me if I told you I do not think she will run for president?

I don't believe I don't know if she will or not.

But I don't I think she's given an opportunity to herself right now.

Why do you think it, though?

You said this a couple of weeks ago and I tried to press you and you were like tight lipped, just like, you know.

Just I had a thought.

I had a thought.

Just kind of got.

Yeah.

Okay.

You're not buying it, Chuck?

No, I don't.

I don't think and I've not talked with her directly about it, but just reading the tea leaves, I don't think she has closed the door on it because as we as a politician and you've had the type of success that she has had in this state, turning it into a blue state in terms of the leadership, you don't want to slam the door on what may present itself coming down the line.

I'll just say two things.

One is, you know, every governor of Michigan in the past few cycles has been named, I mean, as a possibility.

And let's not forget, even like changing the Constitution to me.

Jennifer Granholm.

The second is it hurts no politician to leave whatever doors open.

I mean, how many conversations have we all now had this around this table, other tables?

Will she won't.

She is a possibility.

And every time... Why wouldnt you leave the door open?

That's what I was going to say.

Every time a conversation like this does not hurt apolitical political candidate.

Let's open the door to Senator Bellino.

Senator, how you doing?

Good morning.

Good morning.

How are you doing today?

You still awake?

I'm awake.

I'm awake and I can't wait to get on the golf course.

Good for you.

All right, let's talk about your friend, Mr. Trump.

Do you think he is guilty of exploiting that situation over in GR?

Well, look, look, look at the polling.

It's all you got to do.

If the Democrats have something going their way, they'll use the polling and they'll use it to your advantage and get votes from the American people.

And that's what Trump's doing.

Polling on the Democratic side does not favor the vote for immigration, does not favor the Democrats now.

So just follow the polling.

It's all you got to do.

Senator, senator, the question was, was he politically exploiting it?

You always have to exploit your advantages when it comes to polling stuff.

Yes.

And he probably was.

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, why do you always have to exploit it?

Couldn't you tell the truth?

Well, the truth is, a lady got killed by an immigrant that was arrested and probably should have been out of the country.

That's the truth.

So you go there and you.

You make your decision from there.

And Trump came here.

I saw him a month ago when he was in Waterford talking.

And all he talked about then was the EBS and losing jobs, the UAW.

He did.

He exploited that, didn't he?

So now he's using the immigration policy of of Biden's administration.

So it's it's polling real well for us.

We have to use it.

And just like the governor keeps bringing up abortion.

Well, we changed our Constitution and we're not going to get 17 or 18 Democrats to change the Constitution in a vote.

And she's bringing.

And and she's exploiting the abortion issue, you think?

Correct.

Amen.

Amen.

That's all they have going their way right now.

But you talk about the importance of and the polling around immigration.

But how is what's happening at the southern border impacting the people that voted you to come to Lansing to represent?

And can you provide us some concrete examples of how illegal immigration is impacting the people who live in your district in Michigan?

Well, I listen to the people in my district 99% of the time, and they don't like what's going on at the border.

My great grandfather came here through Ellis Island, did it the correct way, came to came to America to triple his salary, working in a pit, a pit that got sand and gravel out of it.

He made his life better.

I'm not sure all these people have the same thoughts when it comes to coming over the border.

And why do we not vet people?

I mean, my great grandfather was there for two weeks on Ellis Island.

We're not vetting people anymore.

And if we're not going to vet them and we're going to give them an app to fly in from another country.

Is that fair?

Do you have a concrete example of how illegal immigration has impacted people in your district?

I didn't hear one there.

No, I don't I don't have a concrete example.

Not at all.

No, not at all.

No, Senator, to be totally honest with you.

Senator, if immigration is a GOP strength in this election, what do you view as a flaw or a vulnerability for the GOP and for former President Trump?

Well, the flaw is the president's personality.

That's the biggest flaw.

The economy sucks, sucks in my area.

A lot of people are looking for work.

Immigration is huge on people's minds.

So that's what we're working with right now.

We need that as Republican.

I want to take back the House.

So what issues would you use to help take back the House in Michigan right now?

You got to use immigration.

You got to use people have a job.

You got to use EVs that will put people out of job.

In my own district, I got to shut down the coal plant in my district.

20% of all the tax revenue for the county comes from that coal plant.

That's a big issue in my district.

It's not an issue at all other districts, but it is in my district.

So I talk about that a lot.

Senator, you're talking about going to Lansing.

What could a state legislature in Michigan do to stop illegal immigration?

Now, you know, there's not much I can do.

That's a nice question, but there's not much I can do at all when it comes to federal actions like that.

But but Right.

But you're saying that that's what you want to run on in your district or that's what you want to do for the folks in your district?

Well, I'm not I'm not running right now, but I'm sure that all the House members will bring that up, because if if if the leadership of Michigan, the Democratic leadership is all behind President Biden and President Biden's policies on the border are doing nasty things to America today, that's what we're running on.

Senator, are you ready to vote for that tobacco tax on vaping products and e-cigs?

Look, I'm all for a conversation about getting vaping out of kids hands 100%.

But my problem with this is two or three fold.

A We should have a list of authorized products from the FDA that can be sold.

We're having tons and tons of things come over China that aren't authorized by the FDA or even looked at by the FDA, and that's what's causing problems.

I had a retail store.

You want to raise the tax on cigarets a buck 50?

Is that what the bill says?

I believe when they raise the tax on cigarets and early 2000.

Overnight I lost 25% of my business and my store was 17 miles from the border.

So now you're going to destroy businesses even more.

And because of the people going to Ohio to buy their cigarets cheaper, they bought their beer with no deposit, they bought their pop, they bought their gasoline.

How much?

How many, how much tax dollars do we lose because of that?

We lost hundreds of millions of dollars, and I'm not sure this is the right way to do it, but I do believe vaping is hugely bad for kids.

That's that's a fact.

So you're a no vote.

I'm a no vote as the way it's written right now.

But I think there are some things to change in this bill to get me to a yes vote.

You are one of the top Republicans on energy policy in Michigan right now.

I wanted to ask you, what do you make of the influence of this moment now that you're in the minority?

What do you make of the influence of DTC and consumers?

And do you think you know what the Democrats have done working with the utilities?

Do you do you support that?

I mean, I don't think you do on on solar panels.

What do you make of the utility's role in that legislation?

Well, let's get honest here.

We had this discussion about rooftop solar almost four years ago in the house.

Three years ago, I, I knew I could get a raise in the percentage, which was 1% from 16, Bill.

And I wanted to raise that 9% for the up front rooftop solar six for Consumers and three for DTE.

Give them a seven or eight year ramp to not worry about what was going on with the rates and paying for the lines and stuff.

But it was completely rejected by the other side.

They wanted a complete pull back and make it 100% solar.

So I did offer some some leeway there when it comes to take away all control completely against it.

And I can't believe that after about 50 years of of talking about local control, the Democrats did that.

And that's going to hurt my area.

Is the system working in which we, that we use currently to decide what customers rates are and decide whether the rates and consumers are putting forward should be implemented.

Is this system working?

We're seeing the utilities requesting new increases even in recent days.

I mean, you guys have some responsibility for this.

Do you think the system's working right now?

I think the MPSC has got some work to do on this.

I'm not sure.

I haven't looked at what it's going to do with all the money they're going to raise.

But people that use the energy have to pay for it.

And you know that our grid needs a lot of work.

And if we're going to plug in a million EVs at 10:00 at night.

Right now, it wouldn't handle it at all.

The DTE people tell me that.

So we've got a lot more.

So more rate increases , so more rate increases people should expect is what you're saying?

I think so.

And just like we're paying more for everything else, we're going to pay more for energy.

Has DTE earned a rate increase in your opinion?

Well, it's not for me to judge.

I mean, my power went out four times the last six years and once for a long period.

And it was all caused by the same tree in somebody else's yard.

So that wasn't DTEs fault.

There was somebody else didn't want to cut a tree down.

Finally, my neighbor paid the guy to cut it down, and he did so.

So whose fault is it?

I mean, the outages that we've had, if it's not the utility's fault, if it's the neighbor with the tree.

Are you saying it's residents fault that we deal with these outages every year?

You know Craig that almost 85% of all the outages are caused by trees and limbs that, do you know that Craig?

I mean, I've heard the stat used before.

Yes.

Okay yeah.

And so the trees did is trimming trees.

But they have like let me give you the example.

I'm first elected and I got a tree in the back yard.

I got a line going through it and it's a fir tree as rubbing the line.

So I call it and say, well, you please, you know, do something so I don't lose power comes out.

And when I come home that day, there's a big hole in my tree.

And it was funny, but it wasn't rubbing the line anymore and it wasn't got to worry about losing power.

So DTE does what they can legally.

I know, I know this for a fact.

I've got two of the biggest plants in Michigan in my district.

If they shut the one plant down today.

Craig We're having rolling blackouts for months on time.

We can't get the energy in from the southern border.

We have no energy, very little energy coming in from the northern border, and there's no energy coming in from east to west.

So we're in a different little position than more states.

So DTE's got a lot of work to do.

They're putting a lot of money and technology and hopefully they get it right this time.

Senator, as you heard us talking about earlier, we're in an election year.

And so it's sort of like watching to see what, if anything, could happen.

Is there anything right now from where you sit that you think there could be a bipartisan work together between Republicans and Democrats in this year before the election?

Oh, yeah.

There's a lot of stuff.

I mean, we passed a bill with concerning nitrous oxide a couple weeks ago.

We've got to pass the budget.

I think the that this tax bill with vaping, I think there's some there's some bipartisan support there and very a lot of parts of that bill I think we can we can do things to get the vaping away from the kids.

But just to raise the tax is just not going to do it.

Senator, do you regret taking the gavel away from the Republicans to Democrats to shut down the Senate?

In retrospect?

Hey he got his committees back.

I had one chance in four years.

I took it and I don't regret it at all.

Well, but they punished you for it.

Yes, they did.

Yes, they did.

But you know what?

Most of Democrats know I'm not an idiot.

I've been getting along with them fine for years.

I've served with them.

I said earlier, Jeremy Moss, I consider a great friend and we don't agree on much politically.

So I think they went to bat for me and made sure that the penalties they got weren't weren't as bad as it could have been.

Senator, always good to see you.

Hope you hit a nice straight one down the middle of the fairway.

Thanks, babe.

Okay, kid.

Catch you later.

Also, our thanks to our great panel.

Babe (laughs).

Oh, what a great business this is.

See you next week for more Off the Record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible, in part, by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency, partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and public policy engagement.

Learn more at MartinWaymire.com.

For more Off the Record, visit wkar.org Talk Michigan public television stations have contributed to the production costs of Off the Record.