WELCOME BACK OUR GUEST THIS WEEK IS DR. ABDUL EL-SAYED WHO IS WORKING ON THE COVID PANDEMIC OUR LEAD STORY THE GOVERNOR IS NOT READY TO LOCK DOWN THE STATE ON THE PANEL IS STEPHEN HENDERSON, ZOE CLARK ZACHARY GORCHOW.

SIT IN WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT OFF THE RECORD.

PRODUCTION OF OFF THE RECORD IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING, BUSINESS LEADERS FOR MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN ROAD TO TOP TEN.COM.

AND NOW THIS EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD WITH TIM SKUBICK.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH WELCOME BACK TO OUR ZOOM EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD AS WE ARE PLEASED TO JOIN TO THE PANEL THIS MORNING ZOE CLARK IN ANN ARBOR STEPHEN HENDERSON SOMEWHERE IN MOTOWN AND ZACHARY GORCHOW IN EAST LANSING AND IN ANN ARBOR DR. ABDUL EL-SAYED AUTHOR AND CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR.

ON MONDAY THIS WEEK THE GOVERNOR SAID I GOT AN IDEA LEGISLATURE INSTEAD OF ME TELLING YOU WHERE TO SPEND THE MONEY LET'S SIT IN THE ROOM AND DO IT TOGETHER.

MICHIGAN TAXPAYERS WILL LOVE THIS ON THE TABLE 3.9 BILLION FROM WASHINGTON FOR MICHIGAN SCHOOLS.

4.4 BILLION FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENTS INCLUDING FUNDS FOR PUBLIC SAFETY AND OTHER LOCAL NEEDS.

AND ANOTHER 5.7 BILLION FOR STATE GOVERNMENT.

FOR OVER A MONTH THE GOVERNOR HAS BEEN SINGING THE SAME OLD SONG TO THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE.

LET'S WORK TOGETHER.

A SONG THAT HAS SO FAR FALLEN ON DEAF EARS.

SO TIM YOU HAVE HEARD THE SONG AND I'M GOING TO KEEP SINGING IT AND GET STUFF DONE AND COMMON GROUND AND STRONGER IF WE DO THAT SO LET'S GO FROM A SOLO DO A DUET WITH 18 MILLION TO SPEND THE GOVERNOR WOULD DECIDE WHERE THE DOLLAR WOULD GO AND ASK THEM TO PASS IT OR CHANGE IT BUT THE GOVERNOR IS TAKING A DIFFERENT TACT SHE HAS OUTLINED IN HER VALUES IN BROAD TERMS AND ASKING THE TWO REPUBLICAN LEADERS MIKE SHIRKEY AND JAESEAN WENTWORTH TO HELP HER DECIDE SPECIFIC BUCKETS FOR THE MONEY.

GET THE POLITICS OUT OF THIS I DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS REASONABLE.

I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE, I REALLY DO.

AND THAT IS WHY INSTEAD OF PUTTING TOGETHER A WHOLE PROPOSAL WE WANTED TO SET FORTH WHAT OUR VALUES ARE AND INVITE THE LEGISLATURE TO THE TABLE.

SO NO AGREEMENTS HAVE BEEN MADE ON ANYTHING.

>> WELL DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIM WE'VE HAD A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS.

AT THIS JUNCTURE.

>> BUT DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT TALK WHAT THE GOVERNOR NEEDS IS TALK THAT WILL PRODUCE REPUBLICAN VOTES FOR HER VALUES WITH THE CLOCK TICKING AWAY.

>> WE DON'T HAVE UNLIMITED TIME HERE, TIME IS IMPORTANT.

IT IS CRUCIAL THAT WE GET TO WORK AND WE ARE EAGER TO DO THAT.

>> SO FAR THIS TRIO HAS NOT BEEN SINGING THE SAME SONG BUT WITH 18 BILLION RIDING ON THE OUTCOME MAYBE THEY THE HARMONIZE OVER THIS ON BEHALF OF MICHIGAN RESIDENTS WE WILL SEE.

SO STEPHEN THE GOVERNOR WANTS TO DO A DUET.

SOMETHING A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF ALL THAT?

>> WELL, YOU NEED A PARTNER FOR A DUET RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> SO FAR IT'S STILL UNCLEAR SHE HAS ONE HERE.

I MEAN I THINK, LOOK, FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT, YOU KNOW, STRATEGIC STANDPOINT THIS IS REALLY SMART.

I THINK IF YOU ARE THE GOVERNOR YOU WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THE OBSTACLE TO THIS MONEY GETTING TO CLASSROOMS AND TO THE OTHER PLACES THAT NEED IT IS THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP AND THE LEGISLATURE.

YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT SEEM IT'S YOUR FAULT AND THIS IS NOT HAPPENING SO PUSHING THE BALL INTO THEIR COURT OR GIVING THEM THE MIC FOR THE DUET WHATEVER ANALOGY YOU WANT TO REACH FOR THERE MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.

I DON'T EXPECT THAT IT'S NECESSARILY GOING TO WORK.

BUT I THINK IT WILL HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE THE BLOCK HERE.

AND AT THE SAME TIME I THINK YOU CAN'T HELP BE BUT ABSOLUTELY FRUSTRATED THAT THIS IS STILL GOING ON.

IT'S BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR A STATE THAT NEEDS IT SO DESPERATELY.

IN SO MANY AREAS.

AND THE IDEA THAT WE CAN'T COME TO AN AGREEMENT EVEN ABOUT HOW TO SPEND MONEY THAT HAS BEEN SENT TO US FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IT'S INFURIATING, WE ENFORCE THAT WE DON'T HAVE COMPETENT LEADERSHIP IN THAT LEGISLATURE RIGHT NOW.

>> SO ZACHARY SHE LAID THAT OUT ON THE TABLE AND THE RESPONSE BACK WAS?

>> SOUNDED AN AWFUL LOT LIKE WHAT WE'VE HEARD THE LAST FEW MONTHS FROM THE LEGISLATURE WHICH IS THAT'S NICE, WE ARE WORKING ON A PLAN AND WE ARE GOING TO MOVE AHEAD.

SO THE QUESTION NOW IS WILL THE REPUBLICANS YET AGAIN JUST DECIDE WE ARE GOING TO IGNORE THE GOVERNOR AND DROP A SPENDING PACKAGE ON HER DESK AND BASICALLY FORCE HER TO REACT TO IT.

I FEEL LIKE WE ARE SEEING AND WE WILL TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THIS LATER IN TERMS OF THE WAY THE GOVERNOR HAS QUITE RADICALLY HANDLED HER RESPONSE TO THE PANDEMIC AND RADICALLY CHANGE HER RESPONSE TO THE PANDEMIC AS WELL AS THIS VERY MUCH LIKE KIND OF LET'S ALL GET TOGETHER AND TALK ON THE BUDGET IS SHE IS RECOGNIZING, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHAT SOME IF YOU COUNT THE MONEY THE STATE HAS CONTROL OVER WHICH IS FOR SCHOOLS AND THE STATE ITSELF, NINE SOME BILLION DOLLARS AND THIS IS A ONCE IN A, YOU KNOW, CENTURY PROBABLY GIFT THAT SHE CANNOT AFFORD TO SIMPLY HAVE DICTATED HOW IT IS SPENT.

SHE IS I THINK TRYING TO SIGNAL TO THE LEGISLATURE WE CAN WORK TOGETHER AGAIN.

LET'S WORK.

OBVIOUSLY THERE IS A LOT OF BAD BLOOD BUT WE'VE GOT TO WORK TOGETHER ON THIS.

WE WILL SEE.

SHE'S GOT A HOUSE APPROPRIATIONS CHAIR AND TOM ALBERT THE REPUBLICAN FROM LOWELL WHO SEEMS LIKE HE WOULD RATHER BE RUN OVER BY A TRUCK THAN WORK WITH THE GOVERNOR AT LEAST THAT HAS BEEN HIS APPROACH THUS FAR BUT SHE HAS A SENATE REPUBLICAN CHAIR WITH STAMOS WHO WOULD LIKE TO WORK A DEAL AND A LOT OF THIS MESSAGING SEEMS A LITTLE BIT TARGETED AT SOMEBODY LIKE HIM.

>> TO UNDER SCORE THAT POINT WHEN WE TALKED TO DAVE MASSER THE NEW BUDGET DIRECTOR SAID WITHOUT SAYING IT I'M PUTTING WORDS IN HIS MOUTH AND THAT IS DANGEROUS HE HAS A BETTER WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH MR. STOMAS THAN ALBERT AND HE SAID ON THE SHOW I'M GOING TO GO HUNTING WITH HIM AND THEY HAVE NOT BEEN IN THE WOODS AND MAY NOT GET IN THE WOODS AND THE LATEST OVERTURE COMING IN THE SIDE DOOR RATHER THAN THE FRONT DOOR.

>> I DON'T WANT TO SOUND A BROKEN RECORD AND WANT TO PUT IT IN CONTEXT THAT ZACH ALLUDED TO THE AMOUNT OF MONEY IS INSANE.

THIS IS THE MASSIVE WIND FALL THE STATE OF MICHIGAN WILL BE GETTING FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LIKE IN DECADES AND DECADES AND DECADES SO THIS IDEA WE COULD ACTUALLY BE FIGHTING LIKE WE WERE A DECADE AGO WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT A TWO OR THREE YOU KNOW BILLION DOLLAR BUDGET DEFICIT AND THAT WE MIGHT SEE FIGHTS LIKE THAT TO SPEND UP WARDS THE EQUAL AMOUNT OF MICHIGAN'S GENERAL FUND BUDGET IS JUST SORT OF BONKERS WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

AND SO IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT THERE COULDN'T BE SOME KIND OF REALLY AMAZING VISION HERE WHICH IS LIKE LET'S REALLY LOOK AT THE FUTURE OF WHAT MICHIGAN COULD BE, WHETHER YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE, RIGHT, WE HAD THIS AWFUL DAM BREAK LAST YEAR OR WHETHER YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT LEAD PIPES THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE STATE OR EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION.

LIKE THERE IS ACTUALLY THE POSSIBILITY OF MAKING MASSIVE CHANGE WITH THIS KIND OF MONEY.

AND IT IS SORT OF HEARTBREAKING RIGHT TO SEE IT GO DOWN THE SAME PATH OF PREVIOUS CONVERSATIONS ABOUT BUDGET DEFICITS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

I THINK IT IS VERY SMART TO TRY ANY SINGLE DOOR THAT YOU CAN AND AS ZACH ALSO ALLUDED TO HOW FASCINATING JUST THIS WEEK THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME WE SAW BOTH SENATE MAJORITY LEADER SHIRKEY AND SPEAKER WENTWORTH PRAISING THE GOVERNOR.

THIS WAS ABOUT HER COVID HANDLING OR LACK THERE OF WHEN IT COMES TO RESTRICTIONS.

BUT WE WILL SEE IF THERE COULDN'T BE A FURTHER BIT OF A RELATIONSHIP THE GOVERNOR ALSO TALKING JUST THIS WEEK ON ABOUT HER LIKE OF SPEAKER WENTWORTH AND THAT THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THE FACT THEY BOTH HAVE DAUGHTERS AND SOME RELATIONSHIPS THERE.

I DON'T THINK WE ARE SEEING ANY WARMTH BETWEEN HER AND SHIRKEY BUT MUCH LIKE IT WAS WITH LEE CHATFIELD SEE IF TWO CAN TANGO AND THE THIRD MAN OUT AND FIGURE SOMETHING OUT.

>> THANK YOU FOR THE SEGUE INTO HER SECOND NEWS CONFERENCE THIS WEEK STEPHEN, I GOT A CALL THE GOVERNOR IS GOING TO ANNOUNCE A LOCK DOWN TOMORROW WHAT GOVERNOR ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, CERTAINLY NOT THE ONE IN MICHIGAN.

WHAT IS GOING ON IN HER HEAD REGARDING WHAT TO DO?

>> YEAH, SO I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH DR. KALDUN THE DAY AFTER THAT PRESS CONFERENCE WHICH I THOUGHT REALLY REFLECTED SOME OF THE FRUSTRATION THAT I THINK THEY FEEL IN THE ADMINISTRATION WITH THE CHOICES THAT THEY HAVE.

AND THE SENSE THAT OF OVERWHELM FROM THE NUMBERS WHICH CONTINUE JUST TO GET WORSE AND WORSE.

YOU KNOW, I ASKED POINT BLANK WEATHER FROM A PUBLIC HEALTH STANDPOINT ALONE WHETHER NEW RESTRICTIONS WOULD BE THE SMARTEST WAY TO GET CONTROL OF THIS SURGE.

AND YOU COULD TELL SHE DIDN'T REALLY WANT TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

BECAUSE THEY SAID THEY ARE NOT GOING TO INSTITUTE ANY NEW RESTRICTIONS BUT SHE TALKED ABOUT IF YOU COULD HAVE NEW RESTRICTIONS AND COUNT ON PEOPLE TO FOLLOW THEM THAT IT WOULD BE THE BEST WAY.

AND I THINK WHAT THEY ARE UP AGAINST IS IN OPPOSITION IN THE LEGISLATURE THAT HAS WHIPPED UP ITS SUPPORTERS TO BELIEVE THAT RESTRICTIONS ARE ABOUT LIBERTY AND NOT PUBLIC HEALTH.

AND YOU'VE GOT A FATIGUE FACTOR AMONG A LOT OF THE REST OF THE POPULATION THAT WOULD PERHAPS STYME EFFORTS TO GET RESTRICTIONS IN PLACE SO THEY ARE NOT IN A GREAT POSITION TO BE ABLE TO MAKE BETTER DECISIONS ABOUT THIS OR DIFFERENT DECISIONS.

BUT I THINK AND I DON'T THINK I'M TALKING OUT OF SCHOOL HERE.

I THINK JUST FROM A PUBLIC HEALTH PERSPECTIVE WHAT I DETECTED FROM DR. KALDUN ARE NEW RESTRICTIONS ARE THE THING THAT WILL GET THIS UNDER CONTROL AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

THE C.D.C.

DIRECTOR REFLECTED THAT SAME THING, THAT SAME THINKING THIS WEEK WHEN SHE SPOKE OUT ABOUT THIS AS WELL.

>> ZACHARY THE GOVERNOR I THINK HAS A MESSAGING PROBLEM BECAUSE UP UNTIL NOW SHE SAID SHE WAS DRIVEN BY THE SCIENCE YET IF STEPHEN IS RIGHT WITH DR. KALDUHN AND SCIENCE WOULD DICTATE RESTRICTIONS HOW COME WE ARE NOT DOING IT?

>> GO BACK TO THE NOVEMBER, THE FALL WAVE, THEY WERE WATCHING HOSPITALIZATIONS, THE PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE TESTING POSITIVE AND THE NUMBER OF NEW CASES.

IF YOU WERE TO GO BY THOSE METRICS RIGHT NOW YOU WOULD WHERE ARE THE RESTRICTIONS, IT MAKES NO SENSE.

THEY ABANDON THEIR OWN CALCULATIONS HERE.

NOW THAT SAID THERE ARE -- THERE IS ONE VERY BIG CHANGE SINCE THE PREVIOUS TWO WAVES AND THAT OF COURSE IS THE VACCINE.

>> RIGHT.

>> THERE IS A VACCINE NOW.

YOU HEARD THAT THE GOVERNOR SAY THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN LAST YEAR WHEN SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE RESTRICTIONS SHE WOULD SAY THERE IS NO VACCINE THERE IS NO TREATMENT.

NOW THERE IS A VACCINE AND JUST THIS WEEK THERE APPEARS TO BE A PROMISING NEW THERAPEUTIC TREATMENT AS WELL SO THEY SEEM TO BE MAKING THE CALCULATION NOW THAT THE OUTCOMES MEANING DO PEOPLE DIE OR NOT WILL NOT BE AS BAD AS THEY WERE IN THE PREVIOUS TWO WAVES BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE OVER THE AGE OF YOU KNOW 50 HAVE NOW BEEN VACCINATED AND THOSE ARE THE FOLKS WHO ARE MOST VULNERABLE TO DEATH.

NOW, YES, THE PACE AT WHICH PEOPLE ARE DYING IS NOT AS BAD AS THE SECOND WAVE.

BUT LET'S MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT IT'S AWFUL WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

I MEAN WE ARE AT MORE THAN 40 PEOPLE DYING A DAY FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, THAT'S ABOUT THE AVERAGE WE ARE AT, THAT IS UP FROM ABOUT 14 A DAY WHEN IT BOTTOMED OUT AFTER THE SECOND WAVE IN FEBRUARY AND PEOPLE ARE DYING AND NO IT'S NOT MORE THAN A HUNDRED A DAY LIKE LAST NOVEMBER, DECEMBER BUT IT'S REALLY BAD.

THE GOVERNOR IS GETTING PULLED ALL DIFFERENT MANNER OF WAYS HERE.

YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES DID SHE SAY LAST YEAR THE RESTRICTIONS WORKED, WE FLATTENED THE CURVE, SHE TOUTED THAT AGAIN AND AGAIN BUT SHE IS NOT GOING THERE THIS TIME AROUND AND I THINK SHE HAS CONCLUDED THAT THEY JUST WON'T -- SHE WOULDN'T SAY IN THE OTHER DAY IT JUST WON'T WORK THIS TIME.

IF SHE WERE TO SHUT DOWN THE SCHOOLS AGAIN, IT WOULD BE A BAD SCENE TO SAY THE LEAST.

THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF VERY UNHAPPY PARENTS OUT THERE.

IF THAT WERE TO HAPPEN.

IF SHE YOU KNOW SHE TRIED SHUTTING DOWN ATHLETICS AND HAS JUST BEEN GETTING BUFFETED OF PARENTS OF STUDENT ATHLETES OUT THERE, THEY ARE NOT A MAJORITY OF THE VOTING PUBLIC BY ANY MEANS BUT THEY MADE A LOT OF NOISE AND A LOT OF LEGAL CASES OVER THAT.

SHE COULD TRY SHUTTING DOWN RESTAURANTS AGAIN.

THEY HAVE BEEN DOWN THAT ROAD A COUPLE TIMES, IT WOULD BE UGLY.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT OF WORK IN THE HOSPITALITY SECTOR.

AND BECAUSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENED.

SO I THINK STEPHEN JUST SAID THERE REALLY ARE NO GOOD OPTIONS RIGHT NOW.

>> THE C.D.C.

PEOPLE HAVE BASICALLY SAID TO THE GOVERNOR THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR USING THE VACCINE TO GET OUT OF THIS SURGE IS THAT IT TAKES SIX WEEKS TO GET THE VACCINE WORKING.

IT'S NOT SHOT IN ARM, SURGE OVER.

AND SO THAT'S THE OTHER THING THAT SHE IS BUTTING UP AGAINST WHICH GETS US INTO OUR GUEST WHO IS WITH US TODAY WATCHING THE SUBJECT DR. ABDUL EL-SAYED AND FIRST HE IS AN AUTHOR AND HAS A BOOK AND I'M FEELING LIKE JOHNNY CARSON HERE ON THE LATE NIGHT SHOW HAWK AWAY YOUR BOOK THERE DOC TELL US ABOUT IT, WHAT IS THE MESSAGE YOU WANT THE PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR BOOK, SIR?

>> YEAH, YOU ZOOM OUT FROM THIS PANDEMIC IT SHOWED US A LOT ABOUT OUR SOCIETY.

ONE OF THE SYSTEMS THAT FAILED WORST OF ALL WAS OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM 15 MILLION PEOPLE LOST HEALTHCARE BECAUSE THEY LOST A JOB IN THE MIST OF A PANDEMIC.

WE WATCHED NURSES AND DOCTORS CARE FOR SICK AND DYING PEOPLE IN BAR GAGE BAGS BECAUSE OF PROFIT MODE OF HOSPITALS AND 47 OF THE HOSPITALS EITHER WENT BANKRUPT OR SHUT DOWN AND WE ARE WATCHING YET AGAIN AS WE DON'T GET A HANDLE.

WE FAIL TO GET A HANDLE ON COVID-19 BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT INVESTED IN PUBLIC HEALTH.

THE CONVERSATION ABOUT MEDICARE FOR ALL FOLKS KNOW FROM A SERIES OF DEMOCRATIC PRIMARIES AND IN MICHIGAN INCLUDING MY OWN.

WE WANTED TO TAKE THIS OUT OF THE POLITICAL CONTEXT AND PUT IT BACK INTO THE KITCHEN TABLE CONVERSATIONS THAT PEOPLE HAVE ABOUT OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS PANDEMIC.

SO THAT FOLKS ARE ASKING WHY IS OUR SYSTEM BROKEN, HOW DO WE FIX IT AND WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO NOW AND WE THINK THAT MEDICARE FOR ALL IS A REAL APPROACH TO THAT SO I HOPE FOLKS WILL CHECK IT OUT.

>> SO, DOCTOR, IF YOU WERE GOVERNOR TODAY WOULD YOU SHUT THE STATE DOWN?

>> THERE IS NO QUESTION.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE THE SCIENCE IS AND HAS BEEN, WE HAVE A -- WE HAVE BEEN THE COUNTRY'S LEADER IN B117 WHICH WE KNOW IS MORE TRANSMISSIONABLE AND EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST MORE DEADLY.

WATCHING AS HOSPITALIZATIONS SPIKE.

THE C.D.C.

ITSELF HAS SUGGESTED WE OUGHT TO SHUT THINGS DOWN AND WE KNOW THAT SHUT DOWNS IN THE PAST HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL WHETHER IT WAS IN THE SPRING OR IN THE FALL IN NOVEMBER, THIS IS A RESPONSIBILITY.

PART OF THAT IS ALSO THE FACT THAT I'VE REALLY ADMIRED GOVERNOR WHITMER'S LEADERSHIP.

I THINK THAT SHE STOOD TALL WHEN IT CAME TO TAKING ON THE PANDEMIC IN THE SPRING, IN THE FALL AND PART OF THE FRUSTRATION IS AFTER HAVING SHUT DOWN IN THE PAST, THE FACT THAT SHE IS NOT SHUTTING DOWN NOW SENDS A MESSAGE TO FOLKS THAT THIS ONE IS NOT AS SERIOUS BY CONTRAST TO THE OTHER TWO IF YOU SHUT DOWN THEN WHY NOT NOW IF IT'S SO SERIOUS AND PEOPLE SHOULD BE PRUDENTENT AND THOUGHTFUL AND SAFE AND STAY AWAY FROM THESE KINDS OF ESTABLISHMENTS WHETHER EAT IN DINING OR CASINOS OR GYMS OR INDOOR SPORTS BECAUSE IT'S BEEN DONE IN THE PAST AND SO I JUST THINK THERE IS A LOT OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE SUGGESTING THAT THAT'S WHAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW.

HOSPITALIZATIONS DEATHS KEEP SPIKING 45 PEOPLE DIE A DAY ON AVERAGE OVER THE PAST SEVEN DAYS.

IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, IT HAS BEEN THE RIGHT THING TO DO AND EVERYDAY WE FAIL TO DO IT.

THIS PROBLEM DOESN'T JUST GET LINEARLY WORSE IT GETS EXPEDIENTIALLY WORST IS VIRAL SPREAD.

>> ZOE.

>> I THINK THIS IS WHAT MOST FOLKS ARE TALKING ABOUT AND WHAT THE GOVERNOR IS SAYING SIMPLY IT'S NOT POLICY, IT'S COMPLIANCE.

I'M CURIOUS TO YOU IS THIS MORE OF JUST A SOCIETAL PROBLEM?

RIGHT, DOCTOR?

IS THIS THERE IS NO MATTER WHAT BE 40% OR 45% OF FOLKS WHO JUST BELIEVE THIS IS POLITICS, THAT THIS IS NOT PUBLIC HEALTH AND THAT SIMPLY THIS ISN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO REACH THEM IN TERMS OF THAT MESSAGING, HOW DO YOU GET THAT GROUP THEN TO BELIEVE AND TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY WITHOUT RESTRICTIONS, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

>> YOU KNOW, I HEAR THAT ZOE AND I MIGHT START WITH JUST A TWO WEEK PAWS AND SAY LISTEN I GET HOW FRUSTRATED EVERYONE IS.

BUT THE SPRING IS BEAUTIFUL IN MICHIGAN AND THIS IS THE TIME TO EAT OUTDOORS IF YOU ARE GOING TO EAT IN DOORS ANYWAY.

I HEAR FOLKS ARE FRUSTRATED NOT PLAYING HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS AND I PLAYED HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I DID IN MY YOUTH AND DO A TWO WEEK PAWS WHEN WE DO IT IT'S SAFE.

WE HAVE A TRANSMISSIONABLE VERSION OF THE VIRUS AND PEOPLE ARE TIRED, I'M TIRED OF THIS.

I WANT TO GO ABOUT MY LIFE LIKE IT WAS 2019 BUT IT'S NOT.

AND I WANT TO KNOW WHEN I FINALLY GET BACK TO MY LIFE AS I KNEW IT THAT I DON'T HAVE TO LOOK OVER MY SHOULDER AND THINK ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS GOING TO GET ME SICK, SOMEONE I LOVE SICK OR SOMEONE IN MY COMMUNITY SICK.

AT THE END OF THE DAY RIGHT THE WAY WE DEAL WITH THE NARRATIVE THAT SAYS THAT COVID IS NOT REAL AND MASKS AND VACCINES ARE NOT IMPORTANT IS NOT TO CAPITULATE TO IT, IT'S TO CALL IT OUT AND ASK WHY IT IS THAT FOLKS DON'T BELIEVE THESE THINGS IN THE FACE OF CLEAR EVIDENCE.

AND YOU KNOW WHEN YOU ARE GETTING PLAUDITS FROM THE REPUBLICAN SENATE LEADER WHO IS DENIED THE PANDEMIC FROM THE SERIOUSNESS FROM THE JUMP YOU GOT TO ASK YOURSELF WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE DOING THE RIGHT THING.

>> STEPHEN.

>> YEAH, ABDUL I WONDER WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE DIFFICULTY WE ARE HAVING ESPECIALLY IN THE CITY OF DETROIT GETTING VACCINES GOING.

MAYOR DUGGAN TALKED THIS WEEK ABOUT WHAT THE RATE IS HERE.

I WAS SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT IT'S 24% WHICH MEANS THREE OF EVERY FOUR DETROITERS STILL DOES NOT HAVE A VACCINATION.

AND OF COURSE WE HAVE DONE THIS GREAT JOB WITH MAKING THEM AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE IN THE CITY.

I MEAN YOU CAN CALL AND GET ONE THE NEXT DAY.

WHAT ARE WE DOING WRONG?

AND HOW DO WE GET MORE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT, LOOK, THIS IS THE PATH TO NORMALCY, TO GET MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE VACCINATED?

>> YES STEPHEN I REALLY APPRECIATE THE QUESTION FIRST I'VE GOT TO GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE.

I THINK DUGGAN ADMINISTRATION AND LEADERSHIP IN DETROIT HAS DONE EVERYTHING THEY CAN AROUND THE PANDEMIC AND EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THEIR ACTIONS REALLY HAVE BEEN CRITICAL AND I'M REALLY GRATEFUL FOR THAT.

AT THE SAME TIME THE DECISION TO MAKE TO GET A VACCINE WE SOMETIMES THINK ABOUT AS THIS BROAD PHENOMENON BUT ONE PERSON HAS TO DECIDE AT ONE POINT TO GET THE VACCINE AND THE VACCINE HAS TO BE AVAILABLE THERE FOR THEM.

WE KNOW THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO DELIVERING PUBLIC HEALTH IN A COMMUNITY LIKE DETROIT BECAUSE OF SYSTEMIC RACISM AND THE POVERTY IT CREATES IS THE LAST MILE PROBLEM SO YOU CAN OFFER A VACCINES IN PLACES LIKE FORD FIELD AT PLACES LIKE THE TCF CENTER BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT IS NOT REALLY WHERE PEOPLE ACTUALLY LIVE AND WE GOT TO GET THEM OUT TO PEOPLE'S DOORSTEP.

SO WHAT I'D LIKE TO SEE, RIGHT, AND THIS IS A BIG LIFT, RIGHT, IS MORE FOCUS ON TAKING ON THE VACCINE HESITANCY THAT LEAVES PEOPLE SAYING NO MAYBE NOT TODAY AND WHETHER IT'S A BLOCK CLUB CAPTAIN OR A LOCAL PASTOR AND THINKING ABOUT ADDRESSING THAT LAST MILE PROBLEM BY PUTTING VACCINES ON WHEELS AND GETTING THEM OUT INTO PEOPLE'S COMMUNITIES AT THE POINT, RIGHT.

SO THEY CAN CALL THE HOTLINE AND THAT THING WILL BE DELIVERED TO THEIR DOOR, THERE IS GOING TO BE SOMEBODY WHO IS READY TO PUT THAT IN THEIR ARM AND THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE TRANSIT CHALLENGES, THE TIME CONSTRAINTS THAT SO MANY DETROITERS FACE.

AND LOOK, THEY ARE DOING A GREAT JOB.

I KNOW THESE PROGRAMS EXIST WE JUST HAVE TO TAKE THEM TO SCALE AND THAT IS AN IN PART THAT IS A FUNDS PROBLEM BUT ALSO THAT IS A TIME PROBLEM.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A VACCINE THAT IS ONLY EXISTED FOR A COUPLE MONTHS AND A VIRUS THAT EXISTED A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN A YEAR AND THERE HAS TO BE SORT OF A RELATIONSHIP WITH THIS THING AND AS PEOPLE SEE THEIR NEIGHBORS AND THEIR LOVED ONES GETTING VACCINATED AND FEELING JUST FINE AFTERWARDS AND HAVING THAT NEW FOUND FREEDOM YOU WILL SEE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE CHOOSING TO DO THE THING, LET'S MAKE SURE THEY HAVE A VACCINE AT THEIR DOORSTEP WHEN THAT IS THE CASE.

>> ZACHARY WE HAVE ABOUT THREE MINUTES LEFT AND WE WILL DO OVER TIME SO ZACH GO AHEAD.

>> SO DR.

EL-SAYED IN TERMS OF THE ENFORCEMENT PIECE THAT SEEMS TO BE THE BIG HESITANCY TO TRY TO DO ANOTHER ROUND OF BIG RESTRICTIONS HERE.

THAT IF THE GOVERNOR WERE TO YOU KNOW, SHUT DOWN RESTAURANTS AND BARS AND CLOSE YOU KNOW CLOSE THE SCHOOLS AND YOU KNOW SUSPEND SCHOOL ATHLETICS AND REALLY YOU KNOW TIGHTEN THINGS UP KIND OF LIKE LAST SPRING THE PEOPLE ARE JUST GOING TO NOT BE COMPLIANT AS THEY WERE FOR THE MOST PART LAST SPRING AND EVEN INTO THE FALL.

THAT PEOPLE ARE JUST GOING TO CONTINUE TO DO WHATEVER, THAT RESTAURANTS WILL OPEN, PEOPLE YOU KNOW HAIR WILL BE CUT.

ATHLETICS WILL BE PLAYED, MAYBE NOT ON AN OFFICIAL SCHOOL LEVEL.

AND NOT ONLY WILL YOU HAVE STILL SPREAD OF THE VIRUS ON GOING BECAUSE THESE ACTIVITIES ARE HAPPENING BUT THEN AS THE GOVERNOR YOU HAVE ISSUED THESE RESTRICTIONS THAT ARE NOT REALLY ACCOMPLISHING THE GOAL.

IS THAT A LEGITIMATE CONCERN?

>> I HEAR THAT, IT'S A LEGITIMATE CONCERN AND I THINK YOU HAVE TO DESIGN AROUND THAT.

I ACTUALLY THINK IT SHOULD BE A VERY, VERY SHORT PAUSE I'M TALKING ABOUT TWO OR THREE WEEKS AND I THINK THAT IT SHOULD BE DONE IN A MANNER WHERE ENFORCEMENT IS CONSISTENT BUT LIGHT HANDED.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU KNOW FINES AND JAIL TIME ABOUT THESE THINGS.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A VERY ANNOYING BUT REAL FIND TO SOMEONE WHO IS OPENING UP THEIR RESTAURANT FOR EAT IN.

THE OTHER THING THAT HAS CHANGED THAT I HOPE THAT WE CAN ACCOUNT FOR IS THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH A VERY DIFFERENT FINANCIAL CIRCUMSTANCE THAN WE WERE EVEN IN NOVEMBER.

AT THIS POINT WE'VE HAD TWO TRENCHES OF FEDERAL COVID RELIEF, I KNOW THE LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR CAN'T GET TOGETHER ABOUT HOW WE WILL SPEND IT BUT THE MONEY IS THERE.

AND THE ABILITY TO KEEP THESE BUSINESSES WHOLE EVEN THROUGH THIS LAST PAUSE EXISTS AND SO MY SENSE IS THAT IT'S GOT TO BE LIGHT TOUCH BUT IT HAS TO BE CONSISTENT AND FOCUS ON THE BUSINESS OPERATORS RATHER THAN THE INDIVIDUALS THEMSELVES.

AND YOU'VE GOT TO MAKE IT TIME LIMITED AND SAY LOOK WE WILL DO THIS FOR TWO OR THREE WEEKS I GET PEOPLE ARE SICK OF THIS BUT IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO STOP THE SPREAD OF THIS CONTAGIOUS VARIANT OF THE VIRUS WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE?

WE HAD ALL OF THIS SORT OF CONSTERNATION AND LACK OF ACTION AND THE VIRUS IS SPREADING AT EXPONENTIAL LEVEL.

WE DON'T HAVE ANOTHER CHOICE BUT WE HAVE AN OBVIOUS TOOL TO BE USED AND IF PEOPLE TELL ME THE TOOL ISN'T GOING TO WORK I WOULD SAY TRY IT.

THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO NOW IS TRY IT BECAUSE THE TOOL WORKED IN THE PAST.

AND WE HAVE NOTHING ELSE RIGHT VACCINES ARE NOT GOING TO BE HERE IN TIME.

AND I KNOW RIGHT THAT HAS BEEN THE PUSH TO GET MORE VACCINATIONS IN ARMS BUT THEY ARE NOT GOING TO ACCOMPLISH THE PROBLEM IN TIME.

I WANT TO JUST SPEAK TO ONE SCIENTIFIC FACT HERE.

THERE IS APPROACH CALLED RING VACCINATION WHICH WE USED FOR THINGS LIKE SMALL POX THE PROBLEM IS THE DAY YOU ARE EXPOSED TO SMALL POX AND THE DAY YOU HAVE SYMPTOMS YOU HAVE 14 DAYS WITHIN WHICH A VACCINE CAN WORK TO PROTECT YOU.

THAT IS NOT THE CASE WITH COVID-19.

YOU GET FIVE DAYS FROM THE TIME OF EXPOSURE TO THE TIME OF ILLNESS AND IN THOSE FIVE DAYS, RIGHT, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO VACCINATE SOMEONE BECAUSE IT TAKES TEN DAYS TO PRODUCE ANTIBODIES AND THE TIMING DOESN'T WORK OUT AND IT WILL TAKE TOO LONG THAT IS NOT A VIABLE APPROACH THE VIABLE APPROACH IS A LOCK DOWN.

>> HOLD ON WE WILL HAVE CLOSED CREDITS AND OT WITH THE GOOD DOCTOR AND OUR GREAT PANELISTS WATCH THE CREDITS AND GO TO WKAR.ORG FOR MORE OF OUR CONVERSATION.

SEE YOU THERE.

PRODUCTION OF OFF THE RECORD IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING, BUSINESS LEADERS FOR MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN ROAD TO TOP TEN.COM.

FOR MORE OFF THE RECORD VISIT WKAR.ORG MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF OFF THE RECORD WITH TIM SKUBICK.