(bright music) (upbeat music) - [Narrator] Welcome back to OTR.

Our guest this week is the Chairperson of the Oakland County Republican Party, former state representative Rocky Raczkowski.

On the OTR panel, MSU journalism majors, Kyle Davidson, Sophia Lada, and Daniel James.

Sitting with us as we get the inside out, Off the Record.

- Production of Off the Record is made possible in part by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency, partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing, and public policy engagement.

Learn more at martinwaymire.com.

And now this addition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

- Thank you very much.

Welcome back to Off the Record.

You've seen these people before.

When did we do this earlier?

What month was that?

- February.

- Was it February?

- Wow!

It seems like eons ago, doesn't it?

Kyle, what have you been up to since we saw you last?

- Oh well, I mean obviously think most of us here are seniors, so I've been pushing for graduation, but I mean in terms of journalism and politics, I've actually been working on a media literacy initiative with Pointer, their media wise initiative.

So that's been really interesting and I've gotten to learn a lot of interesting skills about fact checking.

- [Tim] Media literacy?

- Yeah, yeah.

- [Tim] What is that?

- Well it's essentially the best way I can describe it as just critical thinking skills to use online when you're scrolling through social media, because you're gonna see a lot of misinformation on there related to a variety of things.

I know one of the things that we've kind of been focusing on fact checking is, kind of some of the information you see about the Russia-Ukraine war, some information you might see about elections, climate change or things like the COVID-19 vaccine.

- So you're trying to clean up the internet?

- Trying, trying.

It feels like an uphill battle sometimes.

- I mean if you take all the non-informed opinion out of it, you got nothing.

(Kyle laughs) You like that or not?

- You know Tim I just kind of gotta work with what I have.

So ultimately we try to stick with things that are verifiably false.

We're a non-partisan initiative.

So a lot of times we see something, it's focused on checking things that you can actually double-check.

- So then when you find that out, what do you do with that?

- Well, usually what I do when I'm hunting for misinformation in the wild is I kind of turned around because part of our initiative is that we go to college students, we go to colleges all across the country and we get presentations, where do you find this stuff?

How do you spot it?

How do you check it?

So I'll generally save those examples for my presentation.

I'll put them in there and I'm like, "Hey, here's an example of this "and here's how you can check it out."

- Well good.

It sounds like you're doing good work.

Sophia, what are you up to?

- What am I up to?

Definitely a lot of work and a lot of school just trying to finish strong and yeah, still working at the LSJ.

So it's been pretty good for sure since February.

- You're job hunting?

- Job hunting indeed.

Lots of applications out there so we'll see what happens.

- Which one do you want to come back with a yay?

- There are quite a few.

I'm definitely looking at some news places in Detroit because that's kind of near where I'm from working so working there would be cool, but I'm also looking at the Livingston Daily, which is in the Howell, Brighton area.

- Good luck to you.

- [Sophia] Thank you.

= I know you guys will be successful.

Likewise.

And you got a gig.

You already got one.

- Yep.

I'm really excited.

I'm starting with Mier in June after my study abroad and I absolutely can't wait.

I think it should be really awesome.

- And so since February, what else have you been doing?

What stories are you working on?

- Oh gosh!

A lot of state politics obviously ahead of the GOP, the convention in this month actually.

So a lot to do with that.

And then just interviewing candidates.

Miers puts together a series with a lot of the bios.

And so I've been reaching out to a lot of the candidates in different races, especially state house and kind of seeing what they have to say.

- Let me just point out that we are recording this on the 15th of April so everything we say that we get wrong, we'll know after the fact, right?

Let's talk about this governor's race.

Give me some reactions as to what you think's going on out there.

Sophia?

- I mean, it's definitely very interesting.

There's so many different Republican candidates.

I know Tim in your email to us you said you don't expect us to know them all because there are so many.

- [Tim] You cannot name them.

- Yeah.

But I know the three of us before the show, we were just talking a bit about James Craig.

That's one that's definitely pretty well known I'd say.

And I think it'll be really interesting to see where his support comes from because he does have a history in Detroit, but that is also an area that tends to vote blue.

So I think that will just be very interesting to see what kind of happens with that.

- What do you think?

- Oh gosh!

I've been really interested in following the Republican Party, especially because you said there are so many candidates.

Somebody stopped me on my way to the gym yesterday and asked me about Tudor Dixon and-- - [Tim] Wait a minute.

Somebody stopped you?

- Yeah.

Collecting signatures for her campaign.

- Whoa!

Goodness.

- Yeah.

Oh, it's like the eight or ninth time I've been stopped this week I think in different ballot proposals, campaigns, things like that.

- [Tim] Fascinating.

- I'm used to it, but yeah, there's a lot of people on campus.

So she's obviously someone that's on my radar.

I also talk Rebandt yesterday.

I believe I'm pronouncing his name right.

And he had a lot of really interesting things to say too.

I know he just turned in signatures I wanna say sometime this week.

So getting him in right before the deadline about.

- And what petition people hit you?

- Oh gosh!

There was a few.

There was one for, excuse me, the governor's abortion ban, there one on, not ban the opposite, but I've had a few for lone shark.

Oh gosh!

Everything under the sun really.

All the ballot proposals, the Promote the Vote.

- Which gubernatorial candidate have you heard the most about?

- Oh gosh!

That's tough.

I mean obviously I would say the governor, the current governor who we've been doing a lot of writing about.

- Well that's a given.

- But in addition to her, I would say I've heard a lot about James Craig, heard a lot about Tudor Dixon, but I think there are just so many.

It's hard to choose.

- Kyle, what's your take on this?

- Yeah.

I definitely think it's going to be interesting.

As Dani's mentioned, I mean you hear a lot about James Craig, you hear a lot about Tudor Dixon.

I'd definitely be interested to see how, obviously we haven't quite gotten the Trump endorsement yet.

But we did get that brief shout out for Tudor Dixon.

So I'd be interested to see if that's gonna sway the election in any favor or...

I think a lot of people recognize Craig as one of the front runners if not the front runner.

So I'd be interested to see, how things are going to work out between those two or if we have another candidate that could end up as the Republican nominee.

- Have you had any chatter with your colleagues, your peers on the race for governor?

Anybody?

- I mean, I think we always touch on it a little bit in the Monday meetings but-- - But those are journals.

(Dani laughs) They're not real people.

I don't wanna, you've obviously figured this out that we're not real people, okay?

But my guess is there's not a lot of discussion going out there among folks like you and pick an age group.

They are not following this.

Do you get that sense?

- Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, even with the 2020 presidential election, a bunch of my peers were not really following it until after those primaries were over and after the official nomination was made.

So I could see people becoming more involved as the election gets closer, but right now we're in April.

So many months out.

People are just not as interested, young people aren't.

- We ran a story on the program last week that Donald Trump was going to endorse in the race for governor, but get this.

Here's the deal.

He's allegedly made a deal with John Yob who's a political consultant.

If Yob can deliver the attorney general nomination for DePerno, okay?

Which Trump wants, then Perno will deliver the nomination for Yob's candidate for governor, Perry Johnson.

Welcome to the real world of politics.

Why did you go like that?

You went, mmh.

What do you think of that?

- I think that's definitely interesting.

And that's not something that I'd heard of prior.

So it's obviously, there's a lot of things going on.

There's a lot of moves being made and obviously I've heard about Perry Johnson, I've read a few things about his campaign but when you think of candidates, that are out there and loud and are available, Johnson's not one of the immediate people that came to mind apart from the, what's the thing?

The quality, you know what I'm thinking about, Tim.

- The equality.

- I'm trying to think of the title that he's using.

- Oh!

The quality guru.

- Yeah.

Quality guru.

- Apart from that-- - Obviously the TV ads haven't worked on you yet.

(Kyle laughs) They say you've gotta see the ads seven times before you retain the content.

Maybe if you guys are smarter, it might be two or three times.

But that really makes a good point.

Okay, here's this guy's running, I'm the guru candidate and you're struggling to figure out what the heck it was and you're not alone, obviously.

You did some stuff on the Republican Convention.

What was your takeaway from that?

- Oh gosh!

A lot of what I was most interested in is how the Republican Party split ahead of the endorsements.

I think it's going to come down to how strong the Trump delegation is at the convention, just because obviously he has his strong pick for DePerno.

But I think there are a few other really interesting candidates that may be a little bit more moderate and may appeal to a greater majority of the Republican Party.

So we'll see.

- Do you have a take on what's happening?

They meet on the 23rd.

- I mean, it is like Dani said, very interesting to watch.

It is kind of like a divide right now.

I mean we can see even from the pick for attorney general.

Some Republicans are choosing to favor Tom Leonard and others are choosing to favor to DePerno and obviously Trump favors DePerno.

So it's just interesting to see where is the Republican Party going?

Does this divide come to an end or is it just gonna continue growing further apart?

- And the good news is after April the 23rd, we're gonna have a really good sense as to where this thing is headed.

If Trump ends up getting everybody that he wants at the convention, this guy will be invincible going into November.

However, if he takes a hit politically, people are gonna sit back and what are they gonna say about Donald Trump?

- Well, if he does take a hit, that might be a sign that some people think that Donald Trump's power is fading.

Maybe he might not have as strong of a hold over Michigan as people say.

I mean obviously it depends, we'll see nominees come out, but if you miss one, two, more, perhaps Donald Trump's influence over Michigan isn't as strong as some people say it is.

- All right.

Well, let's pursue this issue with our guest that's called in, Rocky Raczkowski, former state lawmaker.

Now in the private sector and a former Colonel in the army.

Is that right?

What was your MOS representative?

- My MOS was when I was enlisted, I was infantry.

And then I was commissioned as an infantry officer and a civil military operations officer as well.

- Great.

You're not packing heat on this show, are you?

- Well actually I was told I wasn't allowed to in my own home by you, Tim.

So I try not to listen to you very much Tim, but I think a few moments ago you said that journalists aren't real people.

I think these three are fantastic future of journalism.

And I applaud you for what you're doing and I encourage you and salute you for the careers that you're gonna move forward.

- Rocky, thank you for that kind words, because they're absolutely right.

Let me-- - Now I wasn't speaking to you, Tim.

I was speaking to them.

- I understood.

I got the message.

You're subtle.

Okay.

You are subtle if nothing else.

Look at you, you endorse Tom Leonard for attorney general.

I'm gonna guess that the Trump people are not very happy with you sir.

- Well I support the President and I supported what he did when he was in the White House.

- Wait a minute.

If you support the President, how come you aren't endorsing his guy for AG?

- Tim, can you let me finish my statement?

I think you'd probably get your answer if you let me finish.

Like I said, I support the President and I support what he did when he was in the White House, but I also support Tom Leonard as a soldier who fought for people's rights and most importantly cherish rights.

We believe that every individual has one vote and every individual has the right to make their own choice.

I support the President, I appreciate what he's done and I appreciate a lot of things that he does.

The problem that is issued here is that I have a relationship with Tom Leonard, I know who Tom Leonard is, I've evaluated the three candidates.

And as an individual, that by the way, there's three candidates in this race.

Let's not forget there's Ryan Berman as well from Oakland County.

And when I looked at who has the best chance to challenge Dana Nessel, who's the best for conservative policies and American First policies and actually has a record of ethics and integrity, I looked at Ryan Berman and Tom Leonard and Matt DePerno and I said Tom Leonard's the one that's gonna earn my support.

- In fact, if DePerno gets the nomination, the Republicans will lose the AG race, right?

- No.

Not true at all.

Not true at all.

If Matt DePerno wins the AG race, I'm gonna support DePerno for attorney general.

Anyone is better than the embarrassment that gets drunk at MSU U of M football games than this attorney general.

- Isn't that a cheap shot representative?

- Well, it would be a cheap shot if it wasn't true.

It is true so it's not a cheap shot.

This Attorney General puts politics above her job and that's not cheap shot.

I'll take that all the way to the bank because it's absolutely fact.

- Jamie, question?

- I guess my question for you is going into the convention, are you concerned about-- - Did I say Jamie?

I mean, Dani.

- You're totally fine.

- [Rocky] Dani.

Dani, Tim.

- [Tim] There you go.

Yeah, right.

There you go.

- Are you concerned about the split, between the two, I guess, there are three, but the two bigger candidates and your endorsement and some of the more moderate Republican Party's endorsement versus Donald Trump's?

- No, I'm really not.

And the interesting thing here is that this also happened to the Democratic Primary or the Democratic Caucus back in 20, what is it?

2018 when Dana Nessel was not supposed to be the candidate of choice.

And she got elected in November.

So when we look at this, people get heated over elections.

Obviously before the primaries or before a party picks a candidate, there's gonna be an internal battle.

But in the end we come together and we fight for the candidate that will do the best for what we believe in.

And I truly believe that we will win in November.

- Yeah.

So you've talked a lot about Dana Nessel.

This is kind of a two part question, but what do you think is something that she's done really well during her time?

And then what are some things that you think your pick Tom Leonard could do a really good job of or better during his term if he were to be elected?

- Well, what's interesting Sophia is the nominating convention is held on Saturday, tomorrow in Grand Rapids for the Republicans.

And you ask a very interesting question, what do I think Dana Nessel has done well.

I think she's done well performing as a humorist clown as the attorney general.

I don't mean this in a negative way.

I truly try not to attack anyone individually, but she has made a art of putting out jokes on her Twitter and on her Facebook page, which aren't always funny, but she's tried to be funny.

I guess she's done a fairly decent job at that.

As far as attorney general, I don't think she's done very many things very well.

By the way I do applaud her for actually bringing charges forward.

I believe she brought the charges forward on the Southfield City Clerk who was brought forward on election integrity charges or switching absentee ballots.

I also believe she brought some charges forward on a couple individuals that were charged with election ballot tampering or ballot fraud in 2020.

So there are a few things that she's done or her office has done.

But I think that Tom Leonard brings number one, a understanding of how to serve people.

Not just Democrats, but all people.

Tom Leonard won't put his political agenda above the law.

If the law says something, he will enforce that law.

Tom Leonard has a level of culture.

He's not gonna go to a MSU or U of M football game and act improperly.

He won't find that amongst Tom Leonard.

And he's definitely a solid individual that will put all men and women on an equal playing field and defend our rights as citizens and will fight for the state of Michigan when we're basically being challenged by the federal government.

- Now Rocky, I have a question.

So I was just wondering, what's kind of your view of the landscape here, especially related to kind of the power of that Trump endorsement.

I mean, do you think that this could be concerning for Leonard or do you think that Leonard has a strong enough base to kind of overcome this presidential endorsement?

- Well, let's be honest that the President's endorsement is very strong and a lot of people are still, if the election were held today, let me backtrack and say this, that Kyle if the election were held today, President Trump would overwhelmingly win Michigan.

If people could take back their votes from 2020 or whatever happened in 2020 and look forward and see what Biden and Harris have done to the United States, they'd say "We want President Trump back "because Michigan was on a better footing a while back."

But getting back to that endorsement, that endorsement is very strong.

It's very strong.

A lot of people still have a lot of respect for the president, but at the same time we know Tom Leonard, we know Ryan Berman, we know Matt DePerno and allow people to make their decision.

Allow people who know these individuals and who have had an interaction with them to make up their own minds.

An endorsement means that President Trump supports him.

That doesn't mean that I blindly follow everything that someone does because I may have a different perspective.

And as an individual and as a Republican, I believe in the freedom of thought, freedom of expression.

We're not blindly following every single comment of every single leader, be it from the state party or whoever else.

That's what the Democrats do.

We're Republicans.

We think for ourselves.

- Well aren't there some people that say that Trump supporters do blindly follow this gentleman.

Regardless of what he does, they still love him.

- Well, I love him, but that doesn't mean that on this one issue...

Listen, Tim, I've been married now 12 years.

I just celebrated my 12th anniversary with my wife.

- Congratulations.

- And I should tell you that, thank you very much by the way.

And by the way, also congratulations on 50 years of Off the Record.

You have been on air as long as I've been alive but... - I say thank you.

- You're welcome.

You're welcome.

I just wanted to share that my wife and I have a great relationship and we respect each other, we're equals to each other, we listen to each other, but we don't agree on every single issue.

We may agree on 95% of the issues.

That doesn't mean that we're gonna have a divorce, or that doesn't mean that I suddenly I'm anti my wife.

And that's what a party is.

It doesn't mean that we blindly follow every single individual from leadership.

We vote for our leaders to lead us, but not to dictate to us.

And as much as I support the president and I support his endorsement, it's not that I feel that same way on that specific issue.

I support endorsement for Cristina Coelho for Secretary of State, an outstanding individual.

I support his endorsement in other individuals as well.

But on this specific one, I've looked at all the candidates and I've stayed quiet until after our county convention.

And after our county convention, I came out and I said, "You know what?

"As an individual, I support Tom Leonard."

- Dani?

- Yeah, I think when talking about Leonard versus DePerno, one of the biggest things that I've seen in terms of DePerno's platform is the 2020 election fraud.

And that's something that I know not everyone in the Republican Party agrees on but I was curious as to your position and what you think about that element of his platform.

- I actually support it.

I think when you think about this whole process, in 2016 I couldn't find a Democrat that didn't believe that the election was tampered.

They were shocked that Hillary Clinton and lost to Donald Trump, which is ridiculous.

They should have just seen the tea leaves of how people were feeling on the ground.

And in 2020, the Republicans feel the same way.

And there is evidence of, when you see the Secretary of State break the law and send out absentee applications, not just once, but multiple times to individuals, instead of by the law the local clerk should be doing it, or should be requested.

When you see ballot harvesting.

And what I think I mentioned a little bit earlier with Attorney General Nessel talking about or Attorney General Nessel's Office bringing charges against individuals that were ballot harvesting from, I believe it was nursing homes.

I'm not sure if I've got all the facts straight there, but I believe it was nursing homes.

And then you see clerks like the one in Southfield changing absentee ballots.

There is fraud.

And one of the best ways we could potentially put this to bed is by doing a full recount or a full audit or whatever people come together and believe should be done so that we can once and for all put the Democratic accusations and the Republican accusations to bed and find out if there was fraud or if there wasn't fraud.

What harm would come to that?

So if Matt DePerno wants to leave that, God bless him.

I support him on that.

If Tom Leonard wants to do that, I support him on that.

If Daniel Nessel were to do that, I would support her on that.

Whatever brings election integrity forward and brings a common belief between republicans, democrats, independents, libertarians, vegetarians, whatever you wanna be to have faith and transparency in electorate system, I'm 100% for.

- Sophia.

- Yeah.

So on the topic of election fraud, I know this was something widely talked about at the end of 2020, as well as the beginning of 2021, a lot of the policies that have come forward regarding election integrity, some people from the left have said, that's discriminatory towards certain of people.

So what do you think is a good path forward that doesn't discriminate against people who are eligible to vote?

- Sophia I apologize, but I have no idea what is discriminatory.

If you can give me a perfect example of something that is discriminatory, I'd be more than happy to address it.

- Are you talking about IDs or having an ID when you vote?

- Yes.

I saw that on a show similar to this actually in 2020 about IDs.

- Sure.

And if you're talking about a voter ID, I don't think that's discriminatory at all.

When you look at a majority of poll that was done, not a long time ago, I believe what six, seven months ago, amongst African Americans in the state of Michigan, I believe 70% of them believed in voter ID.

If that were the case, then going on a flight would be discriminatory because you have to show your ID, buying alcohol at a convenience store would be discriminatory.

This is one of the most sacred honors we have, and you should have an ID.

And by the way, it would be discriminatory if we had some type of discriminatory markings on an ID, but we don't.

And we shouldn't.

I believe that no matter who you are, black, white, Christian, Jew, Muslim, you should have the right to vote and it should be equal to all.

I was raised in a family that believed in equality across the board, gender equality and racial equality.

I was raised to Polish immigrants that came here legally that taught me very well that everyone should be respected.

And when you look at that, the law should be the law.

We should have voter IDs so that you can prove that you are the individual who's voting.

By the way, how is it discriminatory when getting an ID, you can get an ID for free.

And even cities were issuing IDs.

The Secretary of State was issuing state IDs.

You don't need a driver's license to vote.

You need an ID, a governmental ID.

- Representative, we have to put a cap on this, but very quickly, I did not hear you say, do you believe the election was stolen from Donald Trump?

- I believe the election was rigged.

Again, we will never know unless we look at the election from what happened with the Secretary of State, what happened with ballot harvesting.

- But based on what you know now.

Based on what you know now.

(soft music) - None of us will never know.

And that's why it's important for us to audit or hand recount the ballot.

- Okay.

So the answer is you don't know.

- I think I've made it very clear that like Democrats believe that the election was stole in 2016, Republicans felt the election was stolen in 2020.

The only best way we can put this to bed is by doing a full recount or full audit of all the elections and having everyone review it and abide by the law.

- Representative, good to see you again.

Thank you much for doing our broadcast and thanks to our student journalists.

We're gonna have you guys back so stay tuned, okay?

Thank you Rocky.

Catch you later.

See you next week right here on Off the Record.

- [Narrator] Production of Off the Record is made possible in part by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency, partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing, and public policy engagement.

Learn more at martinwaymire.com.

For more Off the Record, visit wkar.org.

Michigan public television stations have contributed to the production costs of Off the Record.

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