>> WELCOME BACK.

THIS WEEK IS A MAINSTREAM REPUBLICAN WITH THE BEEF AGAINST MICHIGAN'S DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTERS.

THE LEAD STORY IS THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATING CONVENTION THE WINNERS AND LOSERS ON THE PANEL WINNERS AND LOSERS ALONG WITH CHUCK STOKES SITTING IN FOR YOURS TRULY SITTING WITH THEM AS THEY GET THE INSIDE OUT OFF THE RECORD.

>> PRODUCTION IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY A FULL-SERVICE STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS AGENCY PARTNERING WITH CLIENTS FOR PUBLIC RELATIONS DIGITAL MARKETING AND PUBLIC POLICY ENGAGEMENT LEARN MORE AT WHARTON WEHMEIER .COM.

>> NOW THIS EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD.

>> WELCOME.

TIM AS HE SAYS I'M SITTING IN.

I HAVE A GREAT PANEL AROUND ME.

THIS HAS BEEN QUITE A WEEK I MEAN MY GRACIOUS P THE GOP CONVENTION, ALL THESE WINNERS ALWAYS LOSERS THERE'S ALWAYS REWARDS AND THERE'S ALWAYS CONSEQUENCES.

LET'S START WITH THAT AND WORK OUR WAY THROUGH.

WHO ARE THE WINNERS AND WHO ARE THE LOSERS FIRST OF ALL.

>> COULD GO ON FOR A A LONGER PIER >> I MEANT IT LITERALLY BUT IT MAY BE IRONICALLY BECAUSE THAT WAS AN ENDORSEMENT CONVENTION WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT BOTH OF THE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES IN MICHIGAN DO NOW BECAUSE THE OFFICIAL CONVENTION ISN'T UNTIL AUGUST BUT THE IDEA OF PARTY LEADERS AMONGST PARTY LEADERS THAT IF YOU SET THE SITE EARLY THAT YOU CAN GET A HEAD START ON CAMPAIGNING ON FUNDRAISING AND IT TURNED INTO A BATTLE ROYALE AT THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION WHERE WHO WERE THE WINNERS?

THERE WERE CANDIDATE WINNERS BUT REALLY THE TRUMP WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THEY ARE STILL MANAGING THINGS FOR THE TIME BEING AND WE WANT TO CALL THEM THE TRADITIONAL WING OR THE CLASSIC WING BUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF MICHIGAN REALLY IS THE TRUMP.

-- RIGHT NOW THEY'RE DRIVING THE BUS.

WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS AT THE OFFICIAL CONVENTION IN AUGUST BUT THERE IS A REAL CONCERN THAT THIS MAY BE A TICKET THAT WILL TURN OFF MORE VOTERS THAN IT WILL ATTRACT.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS YOU THINK THEY HAD THE CONVENTION BUT NOW ALL THE FALLOUT THAT COMES AS A >> YOU HAD MAINSTREAM REPUBLICANS AFTER THIS CONVENTION SAYING THAT THEY DON'T THINK THE CANDIDATES CAN WIN YOU HAD IRAN HAVING TO HIT BACK AGAINST IT AT A PRESS CONFERENCE ANNOUNCING THE WINNERS SO CERTAINLY THERE ARE THINGS THAT COULD HAVE GONE MORE SMOOTHLY TO GIVE THE PUBLICANS CREDIT THIS IS ONE THING THEY HAVE CHECKED OFF THE LIST THEY WENT IN WANTING TO COALESCE THE PEOPLE AROUND THE SIDE OF CANDIDATES TO THE CANDIDATES COULD GO STRONGER INTO AUGUST AND THE NEW MEMBER OF COURSE AGAINST THE BIG THREE I GUESS YOU WOULD CALL THEM DEMOCRATS AND THEY DID.

IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE ANYONE AT THIS POINT IS CONTINUING THEIR CAMPAIGN EVERYONE HAS KIND OF FOLDED OR CONCEDED TO THE PEOPLE AT THE PARTY PICKED UNTIL SO I DO THINK THAT THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED IN COALESCING BEHIND A SLATE OF CANDIDATES THAT THEY HAVE AGREED BY IT WAS NOT SMOOTH IT CERTAINLY WAS NOT.

>> A LOT OF ATTENTION FOR THE AG CANDIDATE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE REPRESENTATIVE MATTA HAD THE PEOPLE THAT HE WANTED IN THERE HE HAS BEEN TALKING WITH TRUMP THEY HAVE BEEN PUSHING HARD BUT NOW THERE'S EVEN MORE FALLOUT IN TERMS OF HIS POSITION ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

AND THAT WAS EXPELLED THIS WEEK FROM THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS SUPPOSEDLY FOR LEAKING CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION ABOUT THE TALKING CAUCUS THE OLD RULE WHAT IS SAID AND CAUCUS DAYS IN CAUCUS AND THE RANKS OF TODD CORSER AND CINDY CAMPBELL OF BEING BOOTED OUT FOR TALKING OUT OF TURN OUTSIDE OF CAUCUS AND ALSO, HOUSE REPUBLICANS INTERNALLY ARE UPSET WITH HIM AS HE WENT OUT AND RECRUITED NUMEROUS CANDIDATES TO PRIMARY THEM WHICH IS HIGHLY UNORTHODOX.

HE RAISED MONEY FOR SOME OF THEM AND THIS IS CAUSING A MAJOR RIFT WITHIN IN THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS YOU KNOW JUST BACK TO THE CONVENTION FOR A SECOND BUT I THINK THE LOSER IN ALL OF THIS IS WHEN 2000 PEOPLE GET TO DECIDE WHO IS THE NOMINEE FOR A SINGLE PARTY THE LOSER IS THE GENERAL ELECTORATE HERE.

THEY WON'T HAVE CHOICE UNLIKE ANYTHING ELSE IN THE GOVERNOR'S RACE, THE U.S. SENATE, CONGRESSIONAL RACES, EVERY SEED FOR THE LEGISLATURE, COUNTY COMMISSIONS, CITY COUNCILS, WE HAVE A PRIMARY SYSTEM WHERE WE GIVE PEOPLE A CHANCE TO ELIMINATE PEOPLE WITH IN A CHOICE OF VOTER OR CANDIDATES AND WITH THESE ATTORNEY GENERAL SECRETARY OF STATE POSITIONS THE TWO PARTIES THEY DO NOT ALLOW THAT AND THEY HOLD A MONOPOLY ON THIS AND THE VOTERS WHO DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICE.

THESE ARE THE NOMINEES THEY WILL FACE THE END THEY GET TO CHOOSE FROM IN NOVEMBER APPEARED.

>> IN SOME RESPECTS THE CANDIDATES AT THE TOP TICKET U.S. SENATE, GUBERNATORIAL, THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE EITHER, THEY HAVE INFLUENCE BUT THAT MEANS THAT WHO EVER THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE IS FOR GOVERNOR AND THAT IS A MESS ALL ON ITS OWN IS IT STILL TEN CANDIDATES?

HE AND MAYBE SEVEN.

>> WHO KNOWS.

>> THE NUMBERS CONSTANTLY CHANGE.

>> AND THEY WILL THEN HAVE TO RUN ON A TICKET AND CHRISTINE AS WELL AND SO THAT MEANS THEY WILL RUN ON A TICKET WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ELECTION RESULTS DENIERS AND AND SO THEY WILL HAVE TO ANSWER ANSWER QUESTIONS LIKE ARE YOU ON BOARD WITH WHAT THE REST OF YOUR TICKET ON THESE PARTICULAR HOT BUTTON QUESTIONS ARE?

>> IS THIS A GOOD POLICY AND PROCESS FOR PRIMARY?

THAT MAY BACKFIRE IN THE GENERAL?

OR ARE THEY LOOKING AND SAYING WE'RE DOING ALL THE RIGHT THING IS THAT WON'T FLIP BACK ON US AND BECOME A BOOMERANG IN THE GENERAL?

>> I THINK THE PEOPLE ARE RIGHT TO HAVE SOME SIGNIFICANT GENERAL CONCERNS HERE ESPECIALLY AS RICK MENTIONED THE ELECTION DENIAL COMPONENT THESE ARE THE TWO PEOPLE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE WHO WOULD PRESUMABLY BE IN CHARGE OF ADMINISTERING AND WORKING THROUGH THE COURTS ON RESULTS OF THESE ELECTIONS AND SO I DO THINK REPUBLICANS FACE A REAL RISK HERE THESE PICS BACKFIRE ON THEM IN THE GENERAL AND I THINK THERE IS A REAL SENSE AMONG THE PARTY AND THE DONOR CLASS MAY BE THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN REPUBLICANS FOR MORE THAN TEN TO 15 YEARS THAT THIS IS NOT PUTTING THEIR BEST FOOT FORWARD AND YOU SAW THAT MOST HIGHLY CONCENTRATED IN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL RACE WHERE THE ESTABLISHMENT CAME OUT TO BACK TOM LEONARD PEOPLE PUT ENERGY AND MONEY INTO HIS CAMPAIGN AND THIS GRASSROOTS CONVENTION SETTING HE WAS NOT ABLE TO PREVAIL OVER THE TRUMP ENDORSED CANDIDATE.

>> TOM LEONARD WAS THE FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER REPUBLICAN ATTORNEY GENERAL CANDIDATE AND HE CAME CLOSE TO WINNING THAT RACE AND, THE CONCEPT WAS THAT WHEN YOU HAVE A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT AND TYPICALLY IN THE MID TERM OF THE PARTY IN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT MIGHT JUST BE THE SORT OF DYNAMIC WHERE SOMEONE WHO'S ALREADY COME CLOSE MIGHT ACTUALLY WIN AND NOW THE REPUBLICAN TICKET IS DEALING WITH CANDIDATES I THINK IT GETS TO WHAT EMILY WAS TALKING ABOUT AND CHAT AS WELL WITH A TICKET THAT WAS CHOSEN BY THE MOST HARD-CORE HARD-CORE TRUMP SEGMENT OF THE PARTY BECAUSE IT WAS A CONVENTION THAT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BREAK OUT AN MAY BE A CENTER-RIGHT ELECTORATE THAT COULD SUCCEED IN NOVEMBER.

>> LET'S TALK A MINUTE BEFORE YOU BRING THERE'S LET'S TALK A MINUTE BEFORE WE BRING ON THE GUEST ABOUT THE DONORS AND WHERE THE DONORS LINE UP THAT THEY HAVE A COALITION HERE MICHIGAN OPPORTUNITY ALLIANCE AND YOU HAVE SOME BIG HEAVY HITTERS AND THERE ARE ABOUT 50 OF THEM LONGTIME TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS WHO SAY WE WILL PUT OUR MONEY NOT SO MUCH IN THE STATE PARTY WE WILL PUT IT BEHIND INDIVIDUAL CANDIDATES AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THIS LOOKS LIKE A MOVE TO TRY TO STOP MOMENTUM THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS.

WILL IT WORK?

>> RON WISNER IS A MEGA DONOR ON AN ISLAND ESSENTIALLY FUNDING THE MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT HE IS A FIGUREHEAD CHAIR OF BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT SEAN MADDOCK IS ESSENTIALLY DRIVING THE TRAIN RIGHT NOW ON A DAILY BASIS WIFE OF REPRESENTATIVE MATTA.

>> AND SHE IS THE ERA PRESIDENT TRUMP AND SO YES NOW YOU SEE LIKE THE BACK ROOM OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE OLD GUARD, THE SHOWS STACKS.

THE NICKEL SENDS THE DIVORCE, THEY ARE ALL NOW TAKING THEIR MONEY AND PUTTING IT INTO CANDIDATES THAT THEY SEE OPPOSITE OF THE MADDOCK TRUMP THE VIEWPOINT OF LIFE AND THE BIGGER PICTURE, IF YOU ARE THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS ASSOCIATION AND DO HAD PLANNED TO SPEND $50 MILLION OR MORE TRYING TO KNOCK OFF GRETCHEN WITMER IN MICHIGAN THIS YEAR AND IF THERE'S EVER A PRIZE IN THE GOVERNORS RACES TO TAKE OUT A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR GRETCHEN WITMER SORT OF WITH THE NATIONAL PROFILE SHE HAS WOULD BE IT.

YOU ARE NOW GETTING A BIT MORE WORRIED ABOUT THE ANGLE THAT COULD BE MATCHED TO PERNELL ON THE BALLOT DOWN VALID AND THAT IS WHY THERE WAS SUCH THE OLD GUARD ESTABLISHMENT TO TRY TO INSTALL TOM LEONARD AS THE AG NOMINEE.

>> IS THERE A CHANCE THIS IS TOO LITTLE TOO LATE?

DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN ON THE SCENE FOR SO MANY YEARS NOW MANY PEOPLE SAY WELL, IF HE DIDN'T LIKE HIM AND HIS POLICIES YOU SHOULD HAVE SPOKEN UP BEFORE NOW AND NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY'RE SAYING WAIT WAIT WAIT WE DON'T WANT TO MAYBE GO BACK TO A DONALD TRUMP PRESIDENCY, IS IT TOO LITTLE TOO LATE?

>> WHO KNOWS THERE'S AN AXIOM THAT TWO THIRDS OF THE THINGS YOU DO ANY POLITICAL CAMPAIGN IS IRRELEVANT YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH TWO THIRDS TO AFTER THE CAMPAIGN IS OVER AND SO YOU DO WHAT YOU CAN WHEN YOU CAN AND THEN HOPE THAT THE STARS ALIGN IN YOUR FAVOR.

>> I DO THINK IT IS SIGNIFICANT I THINK IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TRUMP FUELED GAS ROOTS OF THE PARTY AT THE BIG DONOR CLASS OF THE PARTY HAS ALWAYS BEEN A MARRIAGE OF CONVENIENCE AND THIS IS A DIVORCE.

>> THE TRUMP ACTIVISTS ARE FOCUSED ON BLOWING UP THE SYSTEM I MEAN THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE REALLY HAVING AS THEIR MAIN GOAL IN THE MEGA DONOR'S GOAL IS TO RETAIN POWER AND SO THEY WANT TO DO WHAT'S THE SAFE ROUTE TO MAJORITY AND KEEP THE SENATE IN REPUBLICAN HANDS.

>> AND PUTTING MONEY BEHIND THEIR CANDIDATES WITH ANY CRITICISM OF PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THAT HE HAS A LOT OF ENDORSEMENT BUT THE MONEY ISN'T NECESSARILY FOLLOWING.

>> EXACTLY.

OR AT A SITUATION WHERE YOU GET YOUR ENDORSEMENT BEING LIKE WAS ABLE TO BE ORCHESTRATED ON ONE CANDIDATE.

THIS IS MORE FOCUSED BY THE MEGA DONORS AND TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT REPUBLICANS STILL CONTROL ONE TO TWO HOUSES JUST HEDGING ON THE BED THAT GRETCHEN WITMER PREVAILS.

TO GET MEGA DONORS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE INTERESTED IN TAX POLICY AND INFRASTRUCTURE THAN CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND THE NATIONAL POLL THE NPR JUST RELEASES AT THE PUBLIC IS KIND OF ALIGNMENT WITH THAT THAT THESE HOT BUTTON ISSUES THAT FIRE UP THE REPUBLICAN BASE ARE NOT NECESSARILY THINGS THAT THE VOTING PUBLIC AT LARGE ARE REALLY BEING MOVED BY >> OKAY SO WITH THE TUG OF WAR GOING ON WITHIN THE MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY OLD GUARD NEW GUARD WE WILL SEE WHO WINS THIS BATTLE.

ELECT TO BRING IN OUR GUESTS AND FOR SOME MORE INSIGHT.

WE HAVE A SENIOR ADVISOR WITH THE LINCOLN PROJECT.

JEFF, WELCOMED OFF THE RECORD.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU.

AND NOW WE HAVE THE FIRST QUESTION.

>> THE FIRST THING I WANT TO POINT OUT IS THAT THE LINCOLN PROJECT IS KIND OF AN EFFORT TO WREST THE REPUBLICAN COALITION FROM THE TRUMP ELEMENT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> IT IS TO RESPONSE OF THE CANCER OF THE CHARACTER THAT HAS MANIFESTED IN THE PUBLICAN PARTY.

WERE TALKING ABOUT HIS LONG TIME DONORS AND IT PEOPLE WANT TO VOTE AND FUND COMPETENCE THEY WANT TO VOTE FOR CONSERVATIVE IDEOLOGY BUT IT DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE THEY ARE PRECISELY SIX YEARS TOO LATE FOR THIS THE CANCER HAS ONE IT IS TIME FOR HOSPICE BUT THEY ARE IN DENIAL ABOUT IT.

THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, THEY NEED TO SAY NO MORE AND IT REALLY THEY STAND BY THAT THEN THEY NEED TO -- THEY CANNOT REPENT AND THAT THESE REANIMATED ZOMBIE REPUBLICANS ARE WORTH SUPPORTING.

THEY NEED TO LOSE BEFORE ANY VIABLE CENTER-RIGHT FACTION CAN EXIST IN MICHIGAN.

>> WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP SENTENCE ONE OF THE REASON IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP REMINDING PEOPLE AS HE SAYS THAT SO THAT IT GALVANIZES THE PUBLIC AND REMINDS THEM OF WHAT WENT WRONG AND THAT WAY THEY WILL, OUT IN BIG NUMBERS IN THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

>> I DON'T THINK YOU BUILD WINNING COALITIONS AND YOU CERTAINLY DON'T BUILD A WINNING POLITICAL PARTIES ON THE LIVES AND FANTASY AND DELUSION AND INSANITY.

YOU DON'T BUILD ON CORRUPTION AND CHAOS AND THAT IS WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO FOLLOW UP EARLIER QUESTION.

YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS IT EXISTS NOW NEEDS TO CRATER AND BE REDUCED TO RUBBLE IN ORDER TO BUILD BACK UP AGAIN?

>> IT'S LIKE THE LIFECYCLE OF A STAR IT'S GETS HOTTER AND WHITER AND DENSER THAN IT INCLUDES AND THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THE MATH IS AGAINST THEM THE STRATEGY YOU JUST MENTIONED THEY ARE EMPLOYING TO TRY TO TURN OUT IN GREATER NUMBERS THAN THE MAP ALLOWS THEM TO YOU BY WHIPPING THIS SMALLER FACTION WITHIN THE PARTY INTO MOB BUT MOB RULE DOESN'T WIN IN THE LONG RUN.

THINK WHY IS RON WEISER WAS ASSOCIATING HIMSELF WITH THE MOB?

>> THAT'S THE 64,000-DOLLAR QUESTION.

I CANNOT IMAGINE WHY, THE TAIL IS WAGGING THE DOG.

YOU CALLED IT RIGHT WHEN YOU SAID MADDOCK IS THE DE FACTO CHAIR RON HAS BECOME A FIGUREHEAD BUT YOU LOOK AT THE CHAOS AT THE CONVENTION THIS BY ALL MEANS SHOULD BE A VERY GOOD YEAR FOR REPUBLICANS NATIONALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT BIDEN'S APPROVAL NUMBERS AND THE VIEWS TOWARD THE ECONOMY BUT THE REPUBLICANS REALLY ARE SNATCHING DEFEAT FROM THE JAWS OF VICTORY IN MICHIGAN AND THEY CANNOT EVEN RUN A SIMPLE CONVENTION OF 2000 VOTES BUT YET THEY WANT TO RUN A STATEWIDE ELECTION AND ADMINISTRATION WHERE THERE'S 10 MILLION PEOPLE AND NEARLY 6 MILLION >> WHAT SIGNS DID YOU SEE AS SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN AT DOZENS OF THESE CONVENTIONS OVER THE YEARS?

WHAT SIGN DID YOU SEE THAT THIS WAS NOT BUSINESS AS USUAL?

>> I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR NEARLY ONE YEAR THAT MATT WOULD WIN THE SECRETARY OR ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINATION THE TRUMP FACTION YOU KNOW THEY REALLY ISN'T A FACTION OF TRUMP VOTERS ANY LONGER THERE IS THE FULL THROATED TRUMP AND THE OTHER FULL THROAT TRUMP AND THAT IS -- THIS NOTION THAT THERE IS THIS MAINSTREAM ESTABLISHMENT REPUBLICAN IS NOT REAL THEY ALL BOWED AND BEAR TO NEXT TO TRUMP LONG LONG AGO AND THAT IS WHY I SAID IT WAS SIX YEARS TOO LATE IF THEY WERE GOING TO STOP THE CANCER THAT HAS METASTASIZED WITHIN THE PARTY THEY NEEDED TO DO IT EARLY BUT CANCER HAS SPREAD TO EVERY CELL OF THE PARTY AND NOW IT'S TIME TO LET THE PATIENT >> OKAY -- LET THE PATIENT DIE.

>> OKAY NOW THAT THEY HAVE OUT OF THE GOP HOUSE HE WANTS TO BE SPEAKER OF THE MICHIGAN HOUSE IF INDEED THEY CAN HOLD ONTO THE MAJORITY THERE, DOES THIS HURT THOSE CHANCES SIGNIFICANTLY?

OR WILL HE REPRESENT THE NEW WING?

>> I UNDERSTAND WHY THEY DID IT BECAUSE HE'S CRAZY STUPID AND MEAN BUT THEY PLAYED INTO THE STRATEGY HE PLACED THE MAKE HIM STRONGER AMONG THOSE WHO FIND HIM AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT HIM THAT HE IS BEING PERSECUTED AND SO I THINK IT WAS A BAD STRATEGIC MOVE IF THEY'RE TRYING TO CUT HIS LEGS OUT FROM UNDER HIM BECAUSE ONLY WILL HE RAISE MORE MONEY NOW TO SUPPORT THE CANDIDATES OF CHAOS THAT HE IS LOOKING TO SUPPORT THIS YEAR WHO WILL CONTINUE TO CREATE MORE AND GREATER HAVOC WITH IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> A A LONG-RANGE WHAT THIS THIS MEAN FOR FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IN TERMS OF GETTING MICHIGAN READY FROM HIS VANTAGE POINT FOR THE NEXT ELECTION >> HE HAS PAID AN INSANE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION TO MICHIGAN HE LOST MICHIGAN HE HAD 154,000 VOTES IT WASN'T CLOSE AND IT WASN'T STOLEN THERE WAS NO FRAUD IT WAS NOT RIGGED BUT IN IN HIS FEVER DELUSIONAL MIND MICHIGAN WAS THE PLACE WHERE THIS ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM HIM AND HE IS SO CONCENTRATED ON THAT THAT HE CANNOT SEE THAT THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE SANE AND RATIONAL AND THINK DEMOCRACY MATTERS AND THINK THE NUMBER OF VOTES SHOULD DETERMINE WHO WINS THAT WHO'S COUNTING THE BALLOTS BUT HE IS TRYING TO DO IS CONTROL HE WAS CONTROLLING THE PROCESS WHO'S COUNTING THE BALANCE SO THEY CAN RIGGED THE SYSTEM SO THEY CAN STEAL THE NEXT ELECTION AND HAVE THE PEOPLE IN PLACE IN 2024 TO DO WITH THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN PLACE IN 2020 WOULD NOT DO.

>> IN THE LAST THREE ELECTION CYCLES WE HAVE SEEN RESULTS THAT HAVE DEFIED PREDICTIONS AND EXPECTATIONS WHAT IS YOUR BIGGEST CONCERN THAT WOULD AFFECT HOW YOU WOULD LIKE THINGS TO TURN OUT IN THIS ELECTION CYCLE?

>> MY BIGGEST CONCERN IS CHAOS, THREATS OF VIOLENCE, PEOPLE SHOWING UP AND CONFRONTING ELECTION WORKERS AND DISCOURAGING PEOPLE TO VOTE I THINK THERE IS A GREAT RISK THAT SANE PEOPLE TUNE OUT AND SAY THIS ISN'T MY CIRCUS NOT MY MONKEYS THEY DON'T WANT TO PARTICIPATE AND THAT IS WHERE DEMOCRACY ITSELF FALLS INTO DANGER.

THAT IS WHERE REPUBLICANS RIGHT NOW ARE A DISTINCT MINORITY OF VOTERS IN THE STATE WHERE THEY CAN STILL WIN AN ELECTION LIKE THIS IF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE THE DELUSIONAL LIES AND THE CULTURE WAR STUFF.

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVES FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY REPUBLICANS BUT THAT IS NOT HE WAS ON THE BALLOT AND IF WE TO PERFORM IN AN OUTSIDE NUMBER THAT IS WHERE THERE IS THE RISK.

>> YOU ARE CONSULTING FOR AND AS YOU LOOK AT THIS RESULT FROM THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION WHO DID DANA NESSEL WANT TO FACE?

>> BOTH OF THEM THE SOME VERY AND EXTREME POSITIONS IN THE REBOOKING PARTY.

I'D RATHER BE IN NESSEL'S POSITION BUT I THINK THERE IS A MISTAKE IF PEOPLE DISCOUNT THE CHANCES OF CHRISTINA AND MATT TO ACTUALLY WIN I THINK THINK DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF CRAZY THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED SIX YEARS AGO WHEN DONALD TRUMP ONE AND I WOULD NEVER SAY NEVER AND I THINK PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION ACTUAL DEMOCRACY NEED TO GALVANIZE AND SUPPORT CANDIDATES LIKE DANA AND BENSON AND GRETCHEN WITMER WHO THEY MIGHT HAVE POLICY DISAGREEMENTS WITH BUT THAT COULD BE IRONED OUT IF WE EVER HAVE A NORMAL POLITICAL CLIMATE AGAIN BUT WE DON'T HAVE THAT LUXURY TODAY.

>> YOU HAVE CONSULTED FOR MANY REPUBLICANS ARE OF THE YEARS BUT DO YOU SEE ANYONE ON THE HORIZON THAT COULD PRESENT A SERIOUS CHALLENGE TO DONALD TRUMP?

>> WAS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IT DOES NOT EXIST HE WILL BE THE NOMINEE IN 2024 IF HE RUNS.

>> YOU'RE CONVINCED OF THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> WHAT DOES THE PARTY LOSE OUT ON BY HAVING THESE CANDIDATES THAT ARE SO FOCUSED ON THE RESULTS OF THE 2020 ELECTION AND NOT LOOKING FORWARD AND NOT TALKING AS MUCH ABOUT FORWARD-LOOKING POLICY AND IDEALS OF THE PARTY?

>> POLICY DOES NOT EXIST NOW AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND SO THIS NOTION THAT THEY ARE GOING TO RUN ON A POLICY PLATFORM I THINK HIS FANTASY AND IT IS A MIRED CHAOS WITH CANCER AND THE PARTY WITH OUTRIGHT CORRUPTION IN THE PARTY LET'S NOT LOOK PASS THAT ANGLE THAT IS AN ANGLE WE CAN COULD DROP BUT THEY HAVE A MASSIVE FINANCIAL SCANDAL LOOMING WITH THE FORMER SPEAKER AND THEY HAVE CORRUPTION IN THEIR NOMINATING PROCESS SOMETHING SO SIMPLE AND PERFUNCTORY WITH IN THE GETTING ON THE BALLOT YOU HAVE CANDIDATES LIKE JAMES CRAGG WHOSE PETITIONS ARE RIFE WITH FRAUD WHO ISN'T LIKELY TO MAKE THE BALLOT AND THESE ARE THE FRONT RUNNERS FOR GOVERNOR AND THEY CANNOT EVEN DO THIS PROCESS RIGHT.

THEN THE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO SMOOTH THIS OVER WITH IN THE LEGISLATURE THE PROSPECT OF FINANCIAL MISDEEDS AND MISUSE OF PUBLIC FUNDS DATING BACK TO TO CHATFIELD AND THEY ARE RUNNING ON THE >> WHAT IS THE BIGGEST DANGER FOR DEMOCRATS IN THE MIDST OF ALL OF THIS?

>> OVERCONFIDENCE.

THEY NEED TO TAKE THESE PEOPLE SERIOUSLY BECAUSE THEY ARE A SERIOUS THREAT.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY AND OFF THE RECORD WE WILL SEE HOW THIS SHAKES OUT.

>> WE WANT TO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AT HOME AND WE ALSO WANT TO THANK OUR PANEL.

THE MICHIGAN PUBLIC RADIO AND EMILY AND CHAD THE GOOD WORDS OF DETROIT BUSINESS.

I AND CHUCK STOKES FILLING IN.

JOIN US NEXT WEEK FOR ANOTHER EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD.

>> PRODUCTION IS MADE POSSIBLE BY MARTIN MARTIN WEHMEIER A FULL-SERVICE STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS AGENCY PARTNERING WITH CLIENTS TO PUBLIC RELATIONS, DIGITAL MARKETING, AND PUBLIC POLICY ENGAGEMENT LEARN MORE AT MARTIN WEHMEIER .COM.

>> MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COST OF OFF THE RECORD.