TIM: WELCOME BACK, OUR GUEST THIS WEEK IS TEAMSTERS PRESIDENT JAMES HOFFA.

OUR LEAD STORY, THE GOVERNOR ON THE BACK TO NORMALCY ROAD.

HOW LONG BEFORE WE GET THERE?

>>> ON THE PANEL, CHUCK STOKES SITS INSIDE OUT, "OFF THE RECORD."

PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING.

>> BUSINESS LEADERS IN MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN TOP STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS AND THE ECONOMY.

LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN ROAD TO TOP 10.COM.

>>> AND NOW THIS EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

TIM: WELCOME TO OUR ZOOM EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD."

A GREAT BROADCAST ON THE AGENDA TODAY AS WE WELCOME TO THE PANEL, CHUCK STOKES, BILL BELLINGER AND SHANE AROTH.

GOOD TO HAVE ALL OF YOU ON BOARD.

LEAD STORY, GOVERNOR WHITMER MAKING A HUGE ANNOUNCEMENT, WE'RE ON THE ROAD TO NORMALCY?

YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.

>> LET'S GET BACK TO NORMAL.

>> THE GOVERNOR'S STRATEGY FOR GETTING BACK TO NORMAL IS PREDICATED ON MORE SHOTS IN ARMS, THE QUICKER THE BETTER.

STEP ONE.

TWO WEEKS AFTER 55% OF THE POPULATION HAS AT LEAST ONE SHOT, EMPTY OFFICES WILL BE REFILLED.

>> AT OUR CURRENT RATE, WE WILL LIKELY REACH 55% BY THE END OF NEXT WEEK, MEANING WE COULD REACH STEP ONE TWO WEEKS LATER, BEFORE THE END OF MAY.

>> TWO WEEKS AFTER 60% HAVE ONE SHOT, PUBLIC GATHERINGS WILL INCREASE BY 25% CAPACITY.

>> WE'LL INCREASE INDOOR CAPACITY AT SPORTS STADIUMS, CONFERENCE CENTERS, BANQUET HALLS, INCREASE CAPACITY LIMITS AT GYMS TO 50% AND LIFT THE CURFEW ON BARS AND RESTAURANTS.

>> CAPACITY LIMITS FOR FAMILY GATHERINGS AND INDOOR EVENTS WILL BE LIFTED WHEN 65% GET THE SHOT AND WHILE MICHIGAN IS CURRENTLY AT 35% OF THE POPULATION VACCINATED, ONCE IT HITS 70%, THIS WILL HAPPEN.

>> WE'LL LIFT THE MD HHS FACEMASKS ORDER.

NO LONGER IMPOSE BROAD MITIGATION MEASURES UNLESS UNANTICIPATED CIRCUMSTANCES ARISE, SUCH AS THE SPREAD OF VACCINE RESISTANT VARIANTS.

>> HOSPITALIZATIONS ARE STILL AT 19%, AND THE CASES PER MILLION, THEY'RE DOWN 30% BUT STILL TOO HIGH.

THE STATE ALSO WANTS TO BE AROUND 3% FOR POSITIVE TESTS.

THEY'RE NOT EVEN CLOSE.

>> THE PERCENT OF TESTS THAT ARE POSITIVE IS ABOUT 13.2%, NEARLY THREE TIMES WHERE WE WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF FEBRUARY, BUT DOWN BY 4.3% FROM WHERE WE WERE JUST TWO WEEKS AGO.

>> THE GOVERNOR ADVISES READJUSTING MANY OF THE RESTRICTIONS DEPENDING ON YOU.

>> DEPENDING ON MICHIGANDERS AVAILING THEMSELVES OF THE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT VACCINE.

>> THOUSANDS OF MICHIGANDERS WANT NO PART OF THE, QUOTE, INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT VACCINE, MUCH TO THE GOVERNOR'S CHAGRIN.

SHAYNA, START THE CONVERSATION WITH THE VIEWERS JUST MOVING INTO MICHIGAN AND YOU READ THAT THE MICHIGAN PEOPLE WERE NUMBER ONE ON DEATHS AND RISE IN HOSPITALIZATIONS, WHY IS THE GOVERNOR TALKING ABOUT GOING BACK TO NORMAL?

>> I MEAN, I WOULD BE A LITTLE BIT CONFUSED BY THAT.

I THINK THAT IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT GIVEN THAT WE HAVE BEEN IN THIS PANDEMIC FOR COMING UP ON A YEAR AND A HALF, THAT SHE WANTS TO GIVE PEOPLE SOME HOPE.

AND I THINK THIS IS HER WAY OF INCENTIVIZING PEOPLE TO GET VACCINATED.

I THINK THAT SHE'S REALLY PUTTING A LOT OF HER CHIPS ON THE WE CAN BEAT THIS THING THROUGH VACCINES, AND SHE HAS BEEN VERY MUCH FOCUSED ON VACCINES FOR A WHILE.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT SHE'S TRYING TO DO IS TRYING TO INCENTIVIZE PEOPLE TO GET THEIR SHOTS IN THEIR ARMS AND GET IT DONE.

I STILL, IF I WAS NEW TO THE STATE, I WOULD HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT, THOUGH.

PARTICULARLY GIVEN THAT THESE ARE ALL TIED TO JUST THE FIRST DOSE.

NOT FULL VACCINATION, BUT THE FIRST DOSE, WHICH WE HAVE SEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE NOT GETTING THAT SECOND DOSE.

TIM: CHUCK, IS THIS PREMATURE, OR IS SHE SPOT-ON?

>> I THINK YOU CAN ARGUE IT BOTH WAYS.

CERTAINLY SOME OF THE KEY MEDICAL PEOPLE IN THE STATE WOULD SAY IT'S A LITTLE PREMATURE.

PEOPLE WERE ADVISING HER TO SHUT THE STATE DOWN TWO WEEKS AGO WHEN WE HIT THE RECORD HIGH SPIKE.

WE'RE STILL LEADING THE NATION, BUT THE GOVERNOR DOES NOT WANT TO GO BACK TO A LOCKDOWN.

SHE UNDERSTANDS POLITICALLY IT'S NOT POPULAR RIGHT NOW.

PEOPLE, THEIR PATIENCE HAS BEEN WORN OUT, ESPECIALLY BUSINESSES, AND SHE'S JUST A LITTLE OVER A YEAR OR SO FROM HAVING TO EARNESTLY RUN FOR RE-ELECTION.

I THINK SHE'S GOING TO DO EVERYTHING IN HER POWER NOT TO GO BACK UNLESS THE NUMBERS GO ABSOLUTELY THROUGH THE ROOF, BUT WE CAN'T OVEREMPHASIZE THE FACT THAT WE ARE STILL LEADING THE NATION RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF THIS COVID SPIKE, BUT HER ARGUMENT IS THAT BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE VACCINES AVAILABLE, MORE PEOPLE ARE GETTING THE VACCINE, THEN THAT'S A DIFFERENT SITUATION THAN WHAT SHE FACED LAST FALL.

SO IT DEPENDS ON EXACTLY HOW YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT.

THE SMALL BUSINESS ASSOCIATION GAVE HER KUDOS THIS WEEK.

TIM: MR. BELLINGER, THIS IS A STRATEGIC AND KIND OF SMART MOVE BECAUSE THE GOVERNOR CAN RAISE THE EXPECTATION, BUT IF SHE DOESN'T DELIVER, IT'S NOT HER FAULT, IT'S YOUR FAULT.

SO IT'S A WIN-WIN FOR HER.

>> TIM, THE GOVERNOR IS CLEARLY CHANGED STRATEGY, BEGINNING I THINK AS EARLY AS JANUARY WITH THE DEPARTURE OF ROBERT GORDON, AND SLOWLY BUT SURELY ADOPTED A CARROT AND A STICK APPROACH, AND SHE IS TYING THE RECOVERY TO METRICS BASED ON VACCINATIONS.

HER MOVE THIS WEEK WAS APPLAUDED BY KEY REPUBLICANS.

THE HOUSE MAJORITY FLOOR LEADER BEN FREDERICK SAYS THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN ADVOCATING FOR A YEAR.

THIS IS WHAT REPUBLICANS AND THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY WANTED.

INSTEAD OF THE TOPDOWN AUTOCRATIC DICTATORSHIP OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS, WHICH THE GOVERNOR RELIED ON, FOR MOST OF 2020 AND INTO THIS YEAR, SHE'S CHANGED HER TUNE.

I THINK SHE REALIZES IT'S NOT WORKING, AND WITH MICHIGAN NOW TOPPING THE NATION IN CASES AND DEATHS, SHE'S GOT TO TRY SOMETHING NEW AND CAN'T GO BACK TO WHAT SHE'S BEEN DOING BEFORE.

SO FRANKLY, SHE SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS A LONG TIME AGO, AND THANK GOD SHE'S FINALLY GOTTEN AROUND TO IT NOW.

TIM: SHAYNA, THE GOVERNOR DID HAVE A CAVEAT IN THE DATES, ONCE WE HIT 55%, 60 AND 75%.

IF YOU'RE IN A REGION WHERE THERE ARE 250 CASES PER MILLION PEOPLE, YOU MAY NOT BE PART OF THE PROGRAM.

SO SHE ALSO FROM A PUBLIC HEALTH STANDPOINT GAVE HERSELF WIGGLE ROOM TO WIGGLE OUT OF THE STUFF IF THE NUMBERS ARE NOT GOOD IN THOSE DISTRICTS.

>> YEAH, AND THAT WORKS TO SAY THAT NOW, BUT I MEAN, WHEN THE REST OF THE STATE HAS LIFTED A BUNCH OF THE RESTRICTIONS, I QUESTION HOW THEY'RE GOING TO FEASIBLEY BE ABLE TO ENFORCE ONE REGION NOT BEING ABLE TO HAVE OUTDOOR ACTIVITIES OR TO HAVE THEIR RESTAURANTS AT FULL CAPACITY.

I THINK THAT WHILE THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD DEFINITELY NEED TO DO, YOU'D NEED TO HAVE THE SORT OF ESCAPE HATCHES IN THINGS LIKE THAT.

I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO ACTUALLY HAVING TO ENFORCE THAT, IF THAT DOES END UP BEING THE CASE, WOULD END UP BEING VERY DIFFICULT, AND I WOULD BE VERY CURIOUS TO SEE IF THAT WOULD ACTUALLY WORK, PARTICULARLY GIVEN THAT EVEN NOW, WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME RESTAURANTS OUT THERE THAT ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE CURRENT ORDERS THAT ARE OUT THERE.

THERE ARE SOME BUSINESSES THAT ARE JUST NOT REALLY ABIDING BY ALL OF THE RULES THAT ARE -- THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE RIGHT NOW.

TIM: ALL RIGHT, CHUCK, LET'S TURN THE CONVERSATION TO SOMETHING YOU RAISED IN YOUR OPENING COMMENTS.

MR. GORDON, APPEARED BEFORE A COMMITTEE YESTERDAY AND TOLD EVERYBODY, SHE ASKED ME TO RESIGN AND I DID.

SURPRISE, SURPRISE.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF HIS TESTIMONY?

>> WELL, I THINK WE GOT A FEW MORE DETAILS ABOUT THE RESIGNATION OUT OF IT, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE BECAME PRETTY CLEAR TO ME THAT WHEN YOU'RE AN AT-WILL EMPLOYEE AND THE GOVERNOR DECIDES THEY WANT TO GO A DIFFERENT DIRECTION, THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY REAL OPTIONS THERE AND COULD SEE THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL, SO HE TOOK THE RESIGNATION, HE GOT THE $155,000.

HE HAD TO BACK TRACK ON NOT DISCLOSING ALL OF THOSE THINGS, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THEY DECIDED THAT THEY HAD A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION IN ISSUES ON HOW THEY WANTED TO RUN THE DEPARTMENT.

IT APPEARS AS THOUGH HE WANTED TO BE A LITTLE MORE STRINGENT THAN WHAT THE GOVERNOR WANTED TO DO, AND THAT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT GO BACK AND FORTH.

NOW WHETHER OR NOT, CERTAINLY THE REPUBLICAN SIDE OF THE FENCE IS POKING HOLES AT IT, THAT MAY OR MAY NOT COME OUT TO FUEL FRUITION HERE.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS YOU WORK FOR THE GOVERNOR, YOU'RE AN EMPLOYEE FOR THE GOVERNOR, AND SHE DECIDED WHETHER IT WAS ON POLITICS OR ON PURE POLICY, THAT SHE WANTED TO GO A DIFFERENT DIRECTION, AND SHE NOW HAS A NEW PERSON IN THAT SPOT.

TIM: BILLY, THE REPUBLICANS MIGHT HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR A SMOKING GUN.

DID THEY FIND ONE?

>> I DON'T REALLY THINK SO.

IN TERMS OF THE BIG STORY THIS WEEK, I THINK GORDON'S DEPARTURE IS REALLY NOT THAT IMPORTANT FOR ALL THE REASONS THAT CHUCK JUST MENTIONED, BUT HERE'S WHAT'S IMPORTANT ABOUT THE STORY.

THE GOLDEN PARACHUTE, TIM.

THE 155,000 PAYOUT TO GORDON WITH A NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT.

NOW LOOK, WE'VE SEEN THIS GO ON FOR YEARS, IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, AND I THINK MOST OF US ARE APPALLED AT SOME OF THE PAYOUTS THAT CORPORATIONS GIVE THEIR EXECUTIVES WHEN THEY FIRE THEM OR WHEN THEY LEAVE.

A LOT OF IT IS TO GUARD AGAINST LITIGATION.

IT WILL COST THE COMPANY EVEN MORE IF THEY DIDN'T COME UP WITH A GOLDEN PARACHUTE, BUT WHEN YOU'RE USING TAXPAYER MONEY, AND THIS HAS BEEN USED FOR YEARS IN MICHIGAN GOVERNMENT, IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND IN THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH WITH EMPLOYEES, AND I THINK THE PUBLIC HAS A RIGHT TO BE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS KIND OF A PAYOUT WITH A NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT WHICH NOW HAS BEEN ABROGATED BECAUSE OF COMPLAINTS THAT GORDON HAS TESTIFIED BEFORE THE COMMITTEE SO THAT PART OF IT IS REMOVED.

THIS IS A PROBLEM EVERYWHERE.

IN A SCHOOL DISTRICT IN TRAVERSE CITY, A PROBLEM THAT CREATED TWO YEARS OF CHAOS BECAUSE THE SUPERINTENDENT RESIGNED AND THERE WAS A NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT.

IT WAS ENSUED BY THE NEWSPAPER AND IT'S STILL GOING ON.

IF THEY'RE USING TAXPAYER MONEY, PEOPLE AREN'T GLOMMING ONTO THAT THIS WEEK.

TIM: WE'RE BLESSED TO HAVE AN ATTORNEY ON THE PANEL.

THE REASON YOU SIGN, THE REASON YOU ASK SOMEBODY TO SIGN A SEVERANCE AGREEMENT IS SO THEY DON'T WALK OUT THE DOOR AND SUE YOU.

IS THAT WHAT WAS GOING ON HERE?

>> NUMBER ONE, I WAS CRIMINAL LAW, SO -- TIM: SAME DIFFERENCE!

SAME DIFFERENCE!

THIS IS "OFF THE RECORD."

>> I DIDN'T FOCUS A LOT ON BUSINESS LAW.

TIM: FAKE IT!

[LAUGHTER] >> AT THE END OF THE DAY, I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT THEY WERE GOING FOR.

LOOK, GORDON WAS INVOLVED IN HELPING CARVE OUT THE STATE'S POLICY FOR ARGUABLY THE BIGGEST CRISIS THAT HAS HIT THIS STATE IN WHO KNOWS HOW LONG?

I'M SURE THERE WAS PLENTY THAT WAS DISCUSSED, THAT THE ADMINISTRATION DOESN'T NECESSARILY WANT TO GET OUT THERE, AND YOU KNOW, I THINK, AS BILL ALLUDED TO, UP UNTIL THIS POINT, THIS IS PAR FOR THE COURSE, WHAT PRIVATE BUSINESSES DO, THIS IS WHAT GOVERNMENT ENTITIES HAVE DONE IN THE PAST, AND I THINK THE QUESTION BECOMES NOW IS DO WE WANT TO KEEP ALLOWING FOR THESE TYPES OF AGREEMENTS TO HAPPEN?

AND IS THE PUBLIC GOING TO HOLD, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT ENTITIES ACCOUNTABLE WHEN THESE TYPES OF THINGS HAPPEN?

ARE THEY GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE OKAY WITH SEVERANCE AGREEMENTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

I WOULD IMAGINE THAT WHILE THIS HAS CREATED -- I THINK IN THE LANSING CIRCLE, THIS IS A HUGE THING, THE GOLDEN PARACHUTE THING WAS A HUGE REVELATION THAT PEOPLE GLOMMED ONTO.

I DON'T KNOW THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF LANSING, A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE ACROSS THE STATE NECESSARILY CARED THAT MUCH THAT THIS HAPPENED.

I THINK WHAT THEY ARE MORE FOCUSED ON IS THE PANDEMIC, IS GETTING THEIR JOBS BACK, IS FOCUSING ON MAKING IT THROUGH THE DAY-TO-DAY RIGHT NOW.

SO WHETHER OR NOT LONG TERM THIS HAS A HUGE IMPACT, I DON'T THINK IT WILL, BUT WHO'S TO SAY?

TIM: IT WAS A FROSTY CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM, AS HE TOLD THE STORY IN COMMITTEE YESTERDAY, HE WENT INTO A ZOOM MEETING, PROBABLY NOT KNOWING HE WAS ABOUT TO GET HIT BY A MAC TRUCK, AND THE GOVERNOR'S THERE, AND SHE SAYS ROBERT, THANK YOU FOR THE GOOD WORK YOU'VE DONE.

I THINK WE NEED TO GO IN A NEW DIRECTION, AND HE SAID SHE LEFT THE ZOOM MEETING.

ADIOS, AMIGOS!

LEAVING IT TO HER ATTORNEY.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO RESIGN?

HE'S A GUY, HE'S PLAYED THE GAME.

YES, SURE.

LET'S CALL IN THE PRESIDENT OF THE TEAMSTERS UNION, WHAT A SEGUE, HUH?

HOW DOES HE DO THIS.

MR. HOFFA, GREAT TO SEE YOU, HOW YOU DOING?

>> GOOD MORNING.

GOOD MORNING.

TIM: WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, NICE TO HAVE YOU BACK ON.

A NONCONTROVERSIAL ISSUE, DO YOU HAVE A PLAN FOR AMAZON TRUCK DRIVERS.

>> WE HAVE A SECRET PLAN, I DON'T KNOW HOW SECRET IT IS.

THE DRIVERS ARE EVERYWHERE, THAT'S THE TARGET.

WE'RE GOING TO START TALKING TO THOSE PEOPLE, TALKING TO THE AMAZON DRIVERS, EVERYBODY SEES THEM WITH THE SWATCH ON THE SIDE.

THERE'S A LOT OF ISSUES THEY HAVE.

ONE OF THEM IS THEY HAVE A CAMERA WATCHING THEM ALL THE TIME.

AT UPS, OUR SIMILAR DRIVERS DON'T HAVE THAT.

WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT YOU CAN HAVE A BETTER LIFE, YOU CAN HAVE BETTER JOBS, YOU CAN HAVE MORE DIGNITY ON THE JOB, HAVE A SAY AT WORK, WHICH YOU DON'T HAVE NOW.

THOSE ARE THE THINGS WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING AND HOPEFULLY IT WILL WORK.

AMAZON IS A VERY, VERY TOUGH COMPANY.

THEY GOT A LOT OF MONEY AND KNOW HOW TO FIGHT DIRTY, SO WE'RE READY FOR THE FIGHT, BUT THAT'S OUR NEXT GOAL.

TIM: WHEN IS THE FIGHT GOING TO BE?

>> WELL, RIGHT NOW WE'RE READY TO GO.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT, WE JUST HAD A ZOOM CALL YESTERDAY WITH ALL OF OUR LEADERS IN THE COUNTRY.

WE'RE ABOUT READY TO LAUNCH, BUT WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS WHEN THE TWO DRIVERS PASS ON THE SAME STREET, MAKING DELIVERIES IN A NEIGHBORHOOD OR IN A PLACE, ENGAGE THEM IN CONVERSATION, THAT STARTS THE DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE UNION AND THESE DRIVERS.

SO IT'S GOING TO BE THE NEXT BIG THING THAT WE DO, AND WE'RE VERY EXCITED ABOUT IT.

TIM: MR. PRESIDENT, IF YOU WERE A BETTING PERSON AND IT'S THE TEAMSTERS AGAINST AMAZON, WOULDN'T YOU BET ON AMAZON?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

WE CAN WIN ANYTHING, WE'VE WON BIG VICTORIES, IT WILL BE A BATTLE, WE CAN DO IT.

WE HAD THE BIG BATTLE AT ALABAMA, WHERE JUST TALKING TO THE HEAD OF THE UNION, THEY PLAYED DIRTY, THEY FLOODED A THOUSAND NEW PEOPLE THEY HAD NEVER SEEN INTO THE BARGAINING UNIT WHICH AFFECTED THEM.

HOPEFULLY THEY DON'T DO THAT HERE.

IT WILL BE HARDER WITH TRUCK DRIVERS.

IT'S A GOAL, AND AMAZON IS OUR NEXT BIG THING.

EVERYBODY IN THE LABOR MOVEMENT IS TALKING ABOUT IT, THAT'S THE NEXT BIG THING WE'RE GOING TO DO.

TIM: SHAYNA?

>> SO GIVEN WHAT HAPPENED IN ALABAMA, HOW ARE YOU GUYS PREPARING TO TAKE ON AMAZON AND TO ENSURE THAT THIS TIME THEY'RE ABLE TO UNIONIZE?

>> WELL, IT'S BASICALLY, AMAZON IS A VERY COMPLICATED ISSUE.

THEY HAVE WAREHOUSE WORKERS.

THEY HAVE DRIVERS.

EACH ONE IS SEGMENTED.

SOME ARE W-2 EMPLOYEES.

SOME ARE 1099 EMPLOYEES.

SOME ARE BASICALLY SUBCONTRACTED TO OTHER COMPANIES, SO THERE'S ALL DIFFERENT VARIETIES THEY'VE CREATED TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T GET ORGANIZED.

VERY CLEVER WHAT THEY'VE DONE.

WE'RE GOING TO ORGANIZE THE COMPANIES AND SOMETIMES THEY'RE OWNED BY A CARTAGE COMPANY.

WHEN YOU SEE AMAZON, THAT GUY'S CHECK MIGHT NOT SAY AMAZON, IT MIGHT SAY SOMETHING ELSE.

WE'RE GOING TO GO AFTER THAT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

IT'S GOING TO BE A BIG EFFORT.

WE'RE ENGAGING PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND BY THE WAY, UNIONS ARE TALKING GOING TO DIFFERENT SEGMENTS OF AMAZON AND THE IDEA IS TO HIT THEM ALL AT ONCE AND BASICALLY SPREAD THEM OUT SO THEY CAN'T CONCENTRATE LIKE THEY DID IN ALABAMA.

TIM: MR. BALLINGER?

>> YEAH, THE NATIONAL LABOR FORCE IS ONLY 6.5% UNIONIZED NOW.

IT'S DROPPED DRAMATICALLY, OBVIOUSLY, DURING BOTH OF OUR LIFETIMES.

JOE BIDEN SAYS HE WANTS TO BE KNOWN AS THE GREATEST UNION PRESIDENT, LABOR PRESIDENT SINCE FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT.

DO YOU THINK HE'S ON THE RIGHT PATH TO DO THAT?

WHAT CAN HE DO TO TURN THINGS AROUND FOR THE UNION MOVEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY, TO GET YOUR PERCENTAGE OF MEMBERS BACK UP TO 10, 20, 25% AT LEAST?

>> WELL, I THINK HE'S ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

HE HAD A VERY GOOD STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS WHICH HE DID WEDNESDAY, TALKING ABOUT UNIONS.

HE'S NOT AFRAID TO SAY THE WORD UNION, LIKE OTHER PRESIDENTS WERE.

HE'S GOT THE DIFFERENT TYPE TO WORK ON.

HE'S ESTABLISHING A WHITE HOUSE TASK FORCE ON UNIONIZING.

HE'S GOT A GREAT NEW DEPARTMENT OF LABOR SECRETARY WHOSE GOAL IS TO MAKE SURE WE CAN ORGANIZE.

ORGANIZING IS KEY.

IF WE CAN GET IN THERE, IF UNIONS CAN GET IN THERE AND BASICALLY START RAISING ALL THE BOATS UP WITH THE TIDE.

THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT.

AND I THINK WE CAN DO THAT, BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, HE'S THE MOST PRO UNION PRESIDENT WE'VE SEEN, AND THE PERIOD WE HAVE, HE'S WORKING VERY HARD TO MAKE SURE WE CAN UNIONIZE AND GET DOWN SOME OF THE BARRIERS, IF WE CAN PASS THE PRO ACT, WE WON'T HAVE THE INTIMIDATION, THE FLOODING OF BARGAINING IN US, WE WON'T HAVE THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN ALABAMA.

TIM: CHUCK?

>> MR. HOFFA, YOU RECENTLY, YOU'RE A TEAMSTERS UNION, THE LARGEST IN THE NATION IN TERMS OF UNION, JUST GOT A LITTLE OVERSIGHT FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

IT WAS A LONG OVERSIGHT PERIOD.

WHAT DID YOU LEARN MOST FROM THAT OVERSIGHT AND WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE A FELLOW UNION, THE UAW WHICH JUST GOT OUT FROM SOME VERY TOUGH NEGOTIATIONS HERE IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN?

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT WE WENT THROUGH A LOT LONGER THAN WE PROBABLY HAD TO, BUT WE'RE OUT OF IT NOW, WE'VE BEEN OUT FOR A COUPLE YEARS, WE HAVE A MONITOR THAT WE PROVIDED FOR TO MAKE SURE THERE'S NO CORRUPTION IN THE UNION, BUT BASICALLY FREE OF THE GOVERNMENT ITSELF OF BEING INVOLVED IN OUR UNION, AND I WOULD SAY THAT BASICALLY MAKE A DEAL WITH THE GOVERNMENT, BUT HAVE -- THE ONE THING I WOULD TELL PEOPLE, MAKE SURE THERE'S A SUNSET ON IT, YOU HAVE A GOAL, SO EVERYBODY IS MAKING SURE OUR UNION IS FREE OF CORRUPTION, DELIVERING FOR THE MEMBERS AT A CERTAIN TIME.

I WOULD SUGGEST THAT'S THE BEST IDEA YOU COULD HAVE.

TIM: MR. HOFFA, WHAT PERCENTAGE OF YOUR UNION MEMBERS ARE TRUMP SUPPORTERS?

>> WELL, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

I WOULD SAY 40, 50%.

A LOT OF THEM.

THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, AND WE RUN INTO IT ALL THE TIME, AND WE TALK ABOUT DIFFERENT THINGS AND WE'RE VERY, VERY DEMOCRATIC.

WE REALIZE TRUMP WAS BAD FOR UNIONS.

HE BASICALLY, TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH AND THE REST CAN GO TO HELL.

SO WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO WORK WITH THE DEMOCRATS, BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF TRUMP SUPPORTERS OUT THERE, AND A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE OUT THERE.

TIM: SO ARE YOUR TRUMP SUPPORTERS MISGUIDED?

>> I WOULD SAY THEY ARE.

BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH THEM, BUT THEY MIX UP IDEAS.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU HAVE THE BASE COMING IN THERE TALKING ABOUT GUNS AND ABORTION AND BASICALLY WEDGE ISSUES THAT GET AWAY FROM THE POCKETBOOK ISSUES, THE BREADBASKET ISSUES, WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY, WHICH WE STRESS.

THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING.

HE WASN'T FOR THOSE PEOPLE.

BUT THEY USE THESE WEDGE ISSUES, I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK, YOU SEE IT ON TV, THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, JANUARY 6, AND A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE, THEY GET MISGUIDED WITH IDEAS THAT THE COUNTRY IS FALLING APART.

WE DON'T NEED THAT.

WE NEED TO PULL TOGETHER AND WORK TOGETHER AND WE'LL HAVE A GOOD COUNTRY.

TIM: SHAYNA?

>> CURIOUS, SO DEPENDING ON WHAT METRICS YOU USE, UNION PARTICIPATION PEAKED IN EITHER THE 50s OR THE 70s, AND AS BILL MENTIONED, THE PARTICIPATION OF UNIONS IS QUITE LOW RIGHT NOW.

WHAT DO YOU ATTRIBUTE THIS TO AND HOW DO YOU KEEP UNIONS ALIVE?

>> OUR UNION, BY THE WAY THE TEAMSTERS IS DOING VERY WELL, OUR MEMBERSHIP IS UP, WE'RE ORGANIZING EVERY DAY, AND SO WE'RE VERY PROUD OF WHAT WE'RE DOING.

WHEN YOU SEE THE UPS GUY, WE PROBABLY ADDED 35,000 NEW MEMBERS AT UPS.

SO OUR UNION IS THRIVES RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE'RE IN THE RIGHT AREA RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE IN THE AREA OF E-COMMERCE.

WE'RE IN THE AREA OF THE COUNTRY COMING BACK, DELIVERING TO OUR SUPERMARKETS EVERYWHERE, AND THAT'S WHY THROUGH THIS EPIDEMIC, YOU DIDN'T LOSE A STEP WITH REGARD TO FOOD SUPPLY, MEDICAL SUPPLIES, BECAUSE UNIONS WERE OUT THERE WORKING HARD, BUT THE ANSWER IS, LOOK AT MICHIGAN, SNIDER PASSES A RIGHT-TO-WORK BILL.

EVERYWHERE YOU GO, YOU SEE PEOPLE FIGHTING TO GET RID OF UNIONS, AND WE FIGHT BACK, WE WON IN MISSOURI AND A NUMBER OF PLACE.

WE GOT TO MAKE SURE WE KEEP FIGHTING.

ANSWER IS OUR UNION IS WINNING AND OTHER UNIONS ARE TRYING TO WIN.

I THINK IT'S AUTOMATION.

I THINK THERE'S A NUMBER OF THINGS GOING ON.

THE GIG ECONOMY, A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON THAT ARE DIFFERENT THAN TEN YEARS AGO.

SO THOSE THINGS DO HURT UNIONS AND BASICALLY GET AWAY FROM THE BASIC IDEA OF HAVING AN EMPLOYER THAT YOU WORK FOR, THAT YOU CAN ORGANIZE.

SO WHEN THEY GO TO THE GIG ECONOMY, THEY GO TO THE SUBCONTRACTORS, MISCLASSIFICATION, IT DOES MAKE IT HARD FOR UNIONS TO ORGANIZE.

TIM: WE HAVE TWO MINUTES BUT WE'RE DOING AN OVERTIME SEGMENT.

BILL, JUMP IN.

>> MR. HOFFA, THIS MAY BE A PAINFUL QUESTION.

THE MOVIES THAT HAVE BEEN MADE OVER THE YEARS LIKE JACK NICHOLSON AND HOFFA, HOW ACCURATE IN YOUR VIEW WERE THE MOVIES AND WHAT IS YOUR FATHER'S LEGACY?

>> MY FATHER'S LEGACY IS HE LEFT US A UNION THAT THE MOST -- HE PUT TEAMSTERS ON THE MAP.

HE BROUGHT US TO 1.4 MILLION MEMBERS.

UNION WAS THRIVING AND WINNING.

NATIONAL CONTRACTS THAT NO ONE PERCEIVED THAT YOU COULD HAVE NATIONAL CAR HAUL CONTRACTS, NATIONAL FREIGHT CONTRACTS WHERE WE EQUALIZED STANDARDS FROM COAST-TO-COAST, WHERE DRIVERS MAKE GOOD MONEY AND HAVE DIGNITY ON THE JOB.

THAT'S HIS LEGACY, WE'RE VERY, VERY PROUD OF THAT.

THE MOVIES ARE ACCURATE AND TRIVIALIZE HIS LIFE AND THE FACT HE WAS SUCH AN IMPORTANT PERSON AND HE LIVED AND DIED FOR THE UNION, SO THAT'S WHEN I SEE THOSE, IT'S DIFFICULT TO WATCH THESE MOVIES BECAUSE THEY BASICALLY LOSE THE IDEA OF THE TRUE LEGACY WHICH IS DEVOTION TO THE UNION.

TIM: CHUCK?

>> VERY QUICKLY, MR. HOFFA.

YOU SAY IT'S TIME TO PASS ON THE LEADERSHIP BATON THAT YOU'RE APPROACHING 80.

KEN PAFF OF THE TEAMSTERS FOR THE DEMOCRATIC UNION SAYS YOU WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET ELECTED TO A SIXTH TERM.

WHICH IS IT?

>> I COULD BE ELECTED.

WE DID SOMETHING SO INCREDIBLE THAT NO ONE THOUGHT WE COULD DO.

WE JUST PASSED THE BUTCH LEWIS PENSION RELIEF ACT WHICH IS GOING TO SAVE OUR TEAMSTERS PENSIONS AND PENSIONS OF OTHER UNIONS.

THIS IS SOMETHING WE FOUGHT FOR OVER THE LAST 8 YEARS, GOING TO BE PART OF MY LEGACY BECAUSE IT'S SOMETHING THEY SAID WE COULDN'T DO, AND WE WORKED WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN.

WE WORKED WITH CHUCK SCHUMER.

WE WORKED WITH NANCY PELOSI AND GOT IT DONE, AND GOING TO MAKE SURE OUR UNION PENSION FUNDS ARE SAVED AND I THINK THAT'S SO IMPORTANT WHAT WE'RE DOING.

SO THAT'S A CONSTANT THING.

THAT PROBABLY ALONE, I COULD WIN GOING AWAY, AND KEN PATH, I WAS HERE FIVE TERMS, HE WAS AGAINST ME FIVE TERMS AGO, HE'S BEEN WRONG ALL ALONG.

TIM: A QUICK BREAK.

WAS JOE BIDEN YOUR FIRST PICK FOR PRESIDENT, MR. HOFFA?

>> THIS TIME AROUND, SURE.

ABSOLUTELY.

TIM: THERE WERE 3,000 PEOPLE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

HE WAS YOUR GUY FROM THE GET-GO.

>> THIS LAST TIME, OBVIOUSLY.

TIM: ALL RIGHT, MR. HOFFA.

STAY TUNED, WE'RE GOING TO DO CLOSED CREDITS, WE'LL BE BACK WITH THE TEAMSTERS PRESIDENT AND CHUCK AND SHAYNA AND BILL BALLINGER.

SEE YOU THEN.

>> PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING -- BUSINESS LEADERS FROM MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP 10 STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME AND HEALTHY ECONOMY.

LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN'S ROAD TO TOP 10.COM.

>>> FOR MORE "OFF THE RECORD," VISIT WKAR.ORG.

MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

.

TIM: WELCOME BACK, OUR GUEST THIS WEEK IS TEAMSTERS PRESIDENT JAMES HOFFA.

LEAD STORY, THE GOVERNOR ON THE BACK TO NORMALCY ROAD.

HOW LONG BEFORE WE GET THERE?

ON THE PANEL CHUCK STOKE,