ON "GREATER BOSTON", GRAPPLING WITH ANTISEMITISM IN DUXBURY, WHERE PLAYERS ON THE HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL TEAM USED SHOCKINGLY OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE TO CALL PLAYS DURING A RECENT GAME.

I WILL BE JOINED BY STATE SENATOR BARRY FINEGOLD AND FORMER SCHOOL COMMITTEE MEMBER KAREN WONG, A MEMBER OF THE GROUP DUXBURY FOR ALL.

THEN LATER A NURSE AND A MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELOR FEATURED IN A NEW PODCAST, "UNPRECEDENTED: NURSING IN A PANDEMIC", WHICH EXPLORES WAYS TO COPE WITH THE BURNOUT AND TRAUMA SO MANY FRONTLINE WORKERS ARE FACING THESE DAYS.

>> Reilly: MENTION THE SOUTH STORE TOWN OF DUXBURY TO SOMEONE WHO LIVES ELSEWHERE IN THE BOSTON AREA AND A CERTAIN SET OF ASSOCIATIONS SPRING TO MIND, EXPENSIVE HOMES, BEAUTIFUL BEACHES, A GREAT SCHOOL SYSTEM.

BUT NOW, THE TOWN'S IMAGE IS BEING TARNISHED BY REVELATIONS THAT DUXBURY HIGH SCHOOL'S POWERHOUSE FOOTBALL TEAM HAD A PRACTICE OF USING ANTISEMITIC TERMS TO CALL PLAYS USING WORDS LIKE AUSCHWITZ, GAS CHAMBER AND HOLOCAUST TO DICTATE THE ACTION ON THE FIELD.

THE COACH HAS BEEN FIRED, A GAMES HAVE BEEN CANCELED AND THE TOWN IS WORKING WITH THE ANTIDEFAMATION LEAGUE AND AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATOR TO FIGURE OUT HOW THIS HAPPENED AND WHAT SHOULD COME NEXT.

>> BUT MOVING PAST THE CONTROVERSY MAY NOT BE EASY.

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS DUXBURY'S PATH FORWARD ARE KAREN WONG, A FORMER SCHOOL COMMITTEE MEMBER WHO IS NOW A PART OF THE GROUP DUXBURY FOR ALL AND STATE SENATOR BARRY FINEGOLD, WHO RECENTLY MET WITH THE DUXBURY HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL TEAM AFTER WRITING THEM AN OPEN LETTER THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: KAREN, LET ME START WITH YOU, YOU ARE A JEWISH RESIDENT OF DUXBURY, YOU ARE MARRIED TO A CHINESE AMERICAN MAN.

YOU HAD A SON PLAY FOOTBALL AT DUXBURY HIGH UNDER A DIFFERENT COACH.

WERE YOU SURPRISED WHEN THESE REVELATIONS DIME LIFE?

>> I WAS VERY SURPRISED.

ACTUALLY, IT IS THE SAME COACH BUT IT WAS BEFORE ALL OF THIS -- THE LANGUAGE CHANGED TO PLAY BALL.

YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT ABOUT THIS, ESPECIALLY NOW I HAVE HAD ALMOST TWO WEEKS SINCE THEN.

I WAS -- I WAS SHOCKED, NOT THAT ANTISEMITIC LANGUAGE WOULD BE USED BUT USE IN THIS WAY.

AND I THINK THERE IS LIKE DIFFERENT STAGES OF GRIEF AND IT WAS SHOCK, HURT, OUTRAGE, NOW IT IS JUST YOU KNOW, TRYING UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT WHY IT HAPPENED AND IF IT DID HAPPEN FOR SO LONG.

>> Reilly: ONE QUESTION THAT I THINK A LOT OF PPE WHO DON'T KNOW DUXBURY WELL, INCLUDING MYSELF, HAVE HAD SINCE THIS ..

CAME TO LIFE IS, ALL RIGHT, WAS THIS A PROBLEM WITH A PARTICULAR CULTURE THAT WAS CREATED AROUND THE FOOTBALL TEAM OVER THE COURSE OF THE NOW DEPART'S COACH'S TEN AREA OR THE REFLECTIVE OF A BIGGER PROBLEM IN THE TOWN ITSELF.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON IT?

>> THIS IS JUST YOU KNOW, MY GUT REACTION IS IT IS OBVIOUSLY A BIGGER PROBLEM.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, I KNOW IT IS.

I CAN'T SAY YOU KNOW, HOW WIDE AND HOW FAR IT IS SPREAD BUT I JUST -- I THOUGHT OF THREE ADULT CHILDREN, THEY ARE ALL IN THEIR TWENTIES AND I KNEW THAT THEY WOULD EXPERIENCE SOME YOU KNOW, ANTIRACE, SOME RACIST AND ANTISEMITIC COMMENTS GROWING UP, I JUST DIDN'T REALIZE HOW EVERY DAY IT WAS, HOW CONTINUOUS.

IT IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT IF YOU CALL IT MICROAGGRESSIONS BUT AFTER YOU KNOW, ONE OF MY KIDS SAID LITERALLY EVERY DAY IN MIDDLE AND HIGH SCHOOL NOT A DAY WENT BY WHEN THERE WASN'T SOME COMMENT MADE.

SO I THINK IT IS DEFINITELY YOU KNOW, A BIGGER PROBLEM THAN ONE TEAM, BUT I WANT TO LOOK AT THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN, IT HURT ME WHEN YOU SAID OUR TOWN HAS BEEN TARNISHED BY THIS, BUT IT IS A FAIR STATEMENT, AND I REALLY HOPE THAT OUR TOWN ISN'T JUDGED BY THIS REALLY TERRIBLE ANTISEMITIC SITUATION, BUT HOW WE HANDLE IT, SO I THINK THAT -- WELL, I DON'T WANT TO JUMP AHEAD HERE BUT I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD THAT CAN COME OUT OF THIS.

>> Reilly: THAT'S ACTUALLY GOOD TIME TO BRING IN YOU, SENATOR FINEGOLD, YOU WROTE AN OPEN LETTER TO THE DUXBURY HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL TEAM AND I BELIEVE YOU WERE CONTACTED BY A PLAYER WHO SAID THAT THEY WANTED TO SPEAK WITH YOU.

AM I CORRECT THERE?

>> YES.

>> Reilly: WHAT WAS THAT CONVERSATION LIKE?

>> IT WAS A CONVERSATION THAT THEY WANTED TO HAVE A DISCUSSION AND WE SAID OKAY.

>> Reilly: SO WHAT DID YOU TALK ABOUT WITH THEM?

WHAT DID YOU -- >> >> Reilly: TO THE EXTENT YOU CAN, HOW DID THEY RESPOND TO WHAT -- >> WHEN I SPOKE TO THE TEAM, I EXPLAINED THAT I WAS SOMEONE WHO PLAYED HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE FOOTBALL AND FOOTBALL HAS BEEN A HUGE PART OF MY LIFE IS THE REASON I AM WHERE I AM TODAY, BUT JUDAISM IS ALSO A PART OF MY LIFE AND AS WELL AND THOSE TWO VERY IMPORTANT THINGS COLLIDED IN THIS ISSUE AND I JUST WANTED TO EXPLAIN TO THEM WHY THE REASON AUSCHWITZ IS SO HURTFUL AND HARMFUL TO PEOPLE WHO ARE JEWISH AND I THINK IN THE DAY THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT.

SO TO ME I THOUGHT IT WAS A VERY PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATION AND SOMETHING THAT I THINK YOU KNOW, WAS RECEIVED QUITE WELL.

>> Reilly: YOU AND I TALKED A LITTLE BIT EARLIER, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU SHOWED THEM SOME VIDEO OF -- I THINK TALKING ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST AND I BELIEVE SHOWED THEM A CLIP OR TWO FROM SCHINDLER'S LIST.

>> YEP.

>> Reilly: WERE THEY -- WHEN YOU SPOKE WITH THEM, I KNOW IS A PRIVATE CONVERSATION AND IF YOU CAN'T GET INTO THIS, TELL ME YOU CAN'T BUT I AM WONDERING IF THEY WERE PENITENT WHEN THEY TALKED TO YOU OR IF THEY SEEMED SURPRISED ABOUT ALL OF THE FUSS THAT SURROUNDED THE COMMENTS THEY MADE.

MAYBE I AM PUTTING IT BADLY.

I AM WONDERING IF -- >> I THINK THEY WERE VERY SINCERE IN THEIR REMORSE BUT I THINK THE IMPORTANT THING WHAT I REALLY STRESSED TO THEM IS YOU KNOW, WITH ELI WEISEL, WHEN JEWISH PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST IT IS NOT ABOUT WANTING PEOPLE TO CRY FOR US, NOT TO FEEL PITY FOR US, BUT IN HIS WORDS IT IS ABOUT MAKING THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE AND THAT THE REASON WHY I BROUGHT UP GISSELLE IS TALKS ABOUT EVERYONE BEING A MESSENGER, A MESSENGER OF GOOD AND WHAT I HOPED TO COME FROM THIS WAS THAT PEOPLE CAN LEARN FROM IT, PEOPLE CAN LEARN YOU KNOW, BE BETTER PEOPLE WHO, AND DO GOOD.

>> Reilly: KAREN AS WE TALK ABOUT ALL OF THIS STUFF, I AM STRUCK BY THE TENSION BETWEEN ON THE ONE HAND FULLY RECKONING WITH SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED THAT WAS BAD AND THEN ATTEMPT FOG MOVE PAST IT, TRANSCEND IT IN SOME WAY.

YOU MENTIONED AT A SELECT BOARD MEETING EARLIER THIS WEEK THAT YOU HAVE TALKED TO ALL SORTS OF JEWISH RESIDENTS IN TOWN, ALSO ALL SORTS OF FOOTBALL FAMILIES THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS THIS GOES BACK ALMOST A DECADE, BUT THAT THERE IS ALSO A RELUCTANCE ON THE PART OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING TO TO BE FULLY OPEN AS THE TOWN WORKS WITH AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATED FOR TO BRING EVERYTHING TO LIGHT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT RELUCTANCE?

>> THAT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION, AND AT THIS POINT, I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW ON THE RECORD HOW LONG THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON.

I HAVE HAD A LOT OF KIND OF HUSHED CONVERSATIONS WITH CURRENT AND FORMER FOOTBALL FAMILIES WHO ARE UNCOMFORTABLE TO COME FORWARD.

I AM NOT QUITE SURE WHY.

I CAN'T REALLY ANSWER THAT.

I CAN'T ACTUALLY RECONCILE THAT WITH MYSELF, TO BE QUITE HONEST.

BUT I THINK THAT NOW THAT THERE IS AN INVESTIGATOR, AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATOR WHO IS GOING TO TAKE INFORMATION, CONFIDENTIALLY, THE NAMES WILL NOT BE RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC, AND A LITTLE BIT MORE TIME HAS PASSED WHERE PEOPLE CAN GET OVER THE INITIAL SHOCK AND CERTAINLY FOR THE FOOTBALL FAMILIES, THIS IS A COACH WHO HAS BEEN LOVED AND ADMIRED FOR A LONG TIME AND HAS DONE A LOT OF GOOD, SO, YOU KNOW, IT IS KIND OF COMING TO GRIPS WITH THOSE TWO THINGS SO I AM VERY -- I AM HOPING THAT MORE PEOPLE, CURRENT AND FORMER FOOTBALL PLAYERS WILL COME FORWARD AND SPEAK TO THE INVESTIGATOR BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY WAY HE CAN REALLY GET TO THE TRUTH, YOU KNOW, EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED AND FOR HOW LONG AND I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE COMMUNITY.

CERTAINLY IT IS FOR THE JEWISH COMMUNITY.

>> Reilly: YOU MENTIONED AND I AM GLAD YOU DID YOUR VISCERAL RESPONSE WHEN I SAID DUXBURY'S IMAGE HAS BEEN TARNISHED BY THIS.

I THINK I MAY HAVE MENTIONED TO BOTH OF YOU BEFORE THIS SEGMENT I LIVE IN SWANN SCOTT WHERE THERE WAS VERY CLOSE SCRUTINY I ACTUALLY REPORTED ON IT FOR WGBH THERE WERE SELECTMEN WHO MADE DISMISSIVE COMMENTS ABOUT BLACK LIVES MATTER, AT A RESTAURANT, THE SERVER PUBLICIZED HIS COMMENTS ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THERE WAS SUBSEQUENTLY A RECALL PUSH AIMED AT THE SELECT MAN, IT IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF SITUATION BUT I THINK I HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT WHEN THE TOWN THAT YOU LIVE IN AND THE COMMUNITY THAT YOU LOVE AND WHERE YOU BROUGHT UP YOUR FAMILY, WHERE IT IS CAST IN A VERY UNPLEASANT LIGHT AND ON THE ONE HAND YOU WANT TO RECKON WITH WHAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO THE SURFACE BUT ON THE OTHER HAND YOU ALSO WANT TO TELL PEOPLE, NO, NO THIS IS A GOOD PLACE IN SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS, FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH I WANTED TO MEMBERS THAT AND POINT OUT THAT I THINK A LOT OF COMMUNITIES ARE DEALING WITH ISSUES SUCH AS THIS RIGHT NOW IN OUR NATION'S HISTORY AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKE ME, MAKES HE A LITTLE UNCOMFORTABLE FOCUSING ON ONE COMMUNITY IS I FEEL LIKE IT CAN MAKE US NOT RECKON WITH WHAT IS GOING ON CLOSER TO HOME.

>> MAY I TAKE THAT.

>> Reilly: GO AHEAD, SENATOR.

>> IT IS A REALLY GOOD POINT BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS, THE TAKE AWAY FOR US IS WE NEED DO A BETTER JOB ABOUT GENOCIDE LEGISLATION AND WHEN I SPOKE TO THE STUDENTS I TALKED ABOUT RWANDA AND TALKED OF BOSNIA, A 35 PERCENT OF STUDENTS IN MASSACHUSETTS CAN'T REALLY TELL WHAT AUSCHWITZ MEANS SO WE HAVE A PROBLEM NOT ONLY MAYBE IN BUCKS BUT THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE STATE AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE WANT TO DO IS PASS LEGISLATION BY MAKING GENOCIDE A MAN, EDUCATION AND A MAN, GENOCIDE EDUCATION A MANDATE, AND WE NEED 0 DO A BETTER JOB WITH LAW MAKERS TO EDUCATE OUR YOUNG PEOPLE IN THIS STATE.

>> Reilly: THAT'S IN THE WORKS RIGHT NOW AT BEACON HILL, RIGHT?

>> YEP.

>> I APPLAUD THAT, I AM THRILLED, IT IS AN ELECTIVE COURSE, GENOCIDE AND HOLOCAUST STUDIES IN DUXBURY, IT IS NOT MANDATORY AND I -- A FRIEND OF MINE JUST TOLD ME THAT ONLY 16 STATES IN THE UNITED STATES DO MANDATE THIS TYPE OF EDUCATION SO -- I THINK IT IS A GOOD THING.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU DOING THAT.

>> Reilly: KAREN, I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD HERE BECAUSE YOU ARE THE DUXBURY RESIDENT WHO IS ON THE FRONT LINES WITH THIS ISSUE.

WE HAVE ABOUT TWO MINUTES LEFT, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SEE HAPPEN IN THE COMING MONTHS IN YOUR SNOWN.

>> WELL, FIRST OFF, I WANT TO SEE FAMILIES HAVE A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS NOT JUST AROUND THE HOLOCAUST AND THE FACT THAT AUSCHWITZ ACTUALLY REALLY REPRESENTS THE VISION OF KILLING EVERY SINGLE JEWISH PERSON ON THE PLANET, I MEAN, THAT WAS THE HOPE, I THINK, I WANT FAMILIES TO HAVE A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS ABOUT YOU KNOW, WHAT IT MEANS TO NOT BE NEUTRAL.

IF THEY SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING.

AND I WANT KIDS TO FEEL COMFORTABLE GOING TO THEIR FAMILIES, GOING TO A TRUSTED ADULT AT SCHOOL WITH SOME INFORMATION NO MATTER WHAT, THEY SEE SOMETHING THEY ARE UNCOMFORTABLE, WITH THEY NEED TO KNOW THAT IS OKAY AND THAT IS NOT A VIOLATION OF SOME KIND OF TRUST.

IT IS ACTUALLY A LOVING THING TO REPORT SOMETHING THAT IS DANGEROUS.

I KNOW SCHOOLS ARE LOOKING FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT PROGRAMS.

I AM EXCITED, I HOPE I CAN GET THIS IN.

BEFORE THIS INCIDENT HAPPENED, DUXBURY FOR ALL HAD ALREADY BEEN WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH THE BOARD OF SELECT MEN AND THEY MADE A DIVERSITY EQUITY INCLUSION PROCLAMATION AT THE BEGINNING OF FEBRUARY.

WHO KNEW THAT WE WERE GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO THEM SO SOON?

AND YOU SAW ME AT THE MEETING THIS WEEK TO NOT ONLY DID THEY REAFFIRM IT WITH THE NEW MEMBERS, BUT THEY WANT ALL OF THE TOWN'S DEPARTMENTS TO AFFIRM THAT PROCLAMATION.

THEY WANT TO PUT MONEY IN THE BUDGET FOR TRAINING, BECAUSE I COULD USE TRAINING, AS I SAID AT THE MEETING, I AM JUST A CONCERNED CITIZEN.

I AM JUST LIKE GOING ON INSTINCTS HERE -- >> Reilly: AND THIS SEEMS TO ME, IT IS NOT JUST IN DUXBURY THAT PEOPLE COULD USE TRAINING ON THIS SORT OF THING.

>> RIGHT.

SO TO HAVE THE TOWN LEADERS ACROSS ALL OF THE DEPARTMENTS SO WE CAN BE A MORE WITHINNING AND OPEN AND INCLUSIVE COMMUNITY AND JUST LEARN AND UNDERSTAND.

>> Reilly: UNFORTUNATELY, I APOLOGIZE FOR INTERRUPTING, ESPECIALLY GIVEN WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, WE HAVE TO WRAP IT UP THERE, KAREN WONG, THANK THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE AND STATE SENATOR BAR, BARRY FINEGOLD THANK YOU AS WELL.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: NEXT UP, NURSING IS A TOUGH DEMANDING JOB IN THE BEST OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

BUT FOR THE PAST YEAR PLUS OF A GLOBAL PANDEMIC, WHICH HAS TURNED MANY HOSPITALS INTO BATTLE ZONES AND KILLED MORE THAN 540,000 PEOPLE IN THE U.S. AS LOAN, TOUGH AND DEMANDING DON'T EVEN BEGIN TO COVER IT.

WITH GROWING WORKLOADS, FREQUENT DEATHS OF PATIENTS AND DAILY RISKS TO THEIR OWN HEALTH AND SAFETY, MANY NURSES AND OTHER HEALTHCARE WORKERS HAVE BEEN GRAPPLING WITH IMMENSE STRESS, FATIGUE AND EMOTIONAL TRAUMA.

THESE ARE THE ISSUES AT THE HEART OF A NEW PODCAST CREATED BY LABOURE COLLEGE OF HEALTHCARE IN MILTON, AND WILLIAM JAMES COLLEGE IN NEWTON, WHICH SPECIAL LIVES IN PSYCHOLOGY ..

IT IS CALLED "UNPRECEDENTED: NURSING IN A PANDEMIC", AND MY NEXT GUESTS WERE FEATURED IN THE FIRST TWO EPISODES.

SHAINA CURRAN IS A TRAVELING NURSE WHO'S WORKED THREE COVID-19 CONTRACTS SINCE LAST MARCH AROUND DR. JENNY D'OLYMPIA IS A MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELOR AND ASSISTANT CHAIR FOR COUNSELING BEHAVIORAL HEALTH DEPARTMENT AT AT WILLIAMS JAMES COLLEGE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING A US.

>> SHAINA, LET ME START WITH YOU, WHAT HAS YOUR EXPERIENCE PROFESSIONALLY BEEN OVER THE COURSE OF THE PAST YEAR, WHAT THE CONTEXT YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING IN AND WHAT HAS THAT BEEN LIKE?

>> PRIMARILY ALL OF MY COVID ASSIGNMENTS HAVE BEEN TRAVEL NURSE SAMES SO I WAS ON AN ASSIGNMENT IN COLORADO WHEN COVID FIRST ARTED, THAT CONTRACT GOT CUT EARLY BECAUSE OF COVID AND THEN I ENDED UP IN BOSTON AND IT WAS MARCH, THE BEGINNING OF COVID, FIRST MARCH THAT IT WAS HERE FOR, AND IT WAS HIGH STRESS, UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, UNKNOWN EVERYTHING, I KEPT FEELING LIKE EVERY DAY THINGS WERE CHANGING AND WHEREVER DAY WE GOT NEW INFORMATION.

IT WAS DIFFERENT THAN ANYTHING I HAVE EVER BEEN IN.

I HAVE ONLY BEEN A NURSE FOR NOW COMING ON FOUR YEARS SO IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS JUST EVERY DAY CHANGE AND EVERY DAY NEW INFORMATION, DEALING WITH LARGE VOLUMES OF PATIENT WHOSE ARE EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY SICK, I SEE OVERLOADS, NOT EVEN HAVING AVAILABILITY AND THEN OBVIOUSLY THE NUMBER OF DEATHS, I EVEN WORKED HOSPICE BEFORE AND I HAVE HAD PEOPLE DIE AND END OF LIFE, JUST SOMETHING WE NEVER WERE PREPARED FOR AS NURSES OR IN NURSING SCHOOL AND FOG AGAINST THE SCHOOLS I HAVE GONE TO AND ATTENDED IT WAS JUST SOMETHING WE WEREN'T USED TO, THAT WAS NEW EXPERIENCE, NO ONE REALLY KNEW HOW TO PREP YOU AND THEN SO ON THAT STIEPT I WENT TO NORTH CAROLINA AND SAMES DOWN THERE AND ALSO COVID ASSIGNMENTS AND IT WAS JUST SO, EVERYTHING WAS NEW AND CHANGING AND THE INFORMATION YOU WERE GETTING WAS CHANGING EVERY DAY.

YOU KIND OF DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO BE THE BEST NURSE YOU COULD BE, AND I THINK EVERY DAY WE GO TO WORK TRYING TO BE THE BEST WE CAN TRYING TO PROVIDE THE BEST AND NO MATTER WHAT WE DID WE SAW THESE NEGATIVE OUT COMES AND THEN GROWING AND LEARNING, I MEAN, IN THE LAST YEAR HAS BEEN SUCH AN LEARNING OPPORTUNITY FOR HEALTHCARE PEELED FOR EVERYONE IN GENERAL, EVEN THE NONHEALTHCARE POPULATION OF LEARNING ABOUT COVID, BUT ESPECIALLY IN THE HEALTHCARE PROFESSION JUST LEARNING EVERYTHING WE CAN, TRYING TO DO EVERY CASE STUDY WE CAN AND GET IN BEST PRACTICE OUT THERE.

IT HAS BEEN A TOUGH ROAD TO LEARN DURING.

>> Reilly: I WANTED TO ASK YOU AS A FOLLOW-UP WHAT THE HARDEST PART HAS BEEN FOR YOU, BUT I FEEL LIKE YOU MIGHT HAVE STARTED TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION ALREADY.

AM I RIGHT THAT FROM WHAT WHAT YOU JUST SAID THE HARDEST PART IS NOT HAVING A CLEAR ROAD MAP FOR HOW YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO YOUR JOB IN THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT IN TIME?

>> ESPECIALLY AS A TRAVELER I DO REALLY WELL, GIVE ME AN A TO Z LIST IF THIS OCCURS THIS IS WHAT I DO.

I AM NOT USED TO WHAT YOU TYPICALLY DO AT YOUR FACILITIES I HAVE TO DO OFF OF WHAT YOU TELL ME AND THERE WASN'T AN IF A OCCURS GO TO B, IT WAS LIKE -- I JOKE BUT IT IS LIKE YOU KNOW WHAT, SHOOT, IT IS LIKE WHO KNOWS WHAT IS GOING ON, WHAT IS BEST PRACTICE.

AND THEN KNOWING THAT YOUR DECISIONS ARE CAUSING ILLNESS AND EVENTUALLY DEATH, LIKE I WAS IN PC SETTINGS SO PATIENTS WENT TO THE ICU SO I HAD SOME PLACE TO PUT THEM DEPENDING ON WHAT CARE THEY WERE RECEIVING BUT NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID YOU DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WAS RIGHT AND YOU SENT THEM OFF TO THE ICU AND YOU HEAR WEEKS LATER ALL OF THESE PATIENT THAT IS ARE PASSING AND I THINK IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT, WHICH ATTORNEY SCHOOL TO HELP PEOPLE AND TO BE A NURSE, I EVEN TALK IN A PODCAST, I LIKE BEDSIDE NURSING AND I WANT TO TOUCH MY PATIENTS AND PHYSICALLY BE WITH THEM, AND NUMBER ONE HAVING PATIENTS TAKEN FROM YOU BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO STICK AND GO TO THE ICU AND ALSO NOT KNOWING WHAT ON JOB YOU SHOULD BE DOING AS JOB TITLE OF NURSE YOU KNOW HOW TO HOW TO PROVIDE CARE, YOU DIDN'T, YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO NEXT OR HOW TO CARE FOR THEM AND THEN JUST BEING SENT OFF TO THE ICU, FOR MY PATIENTS AND WE ALL KNOW THE STATISTICS, LIKE THEY ARE REAL, AND IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT HAVING MY PATIENTS HAVE TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE AND IT WAS EVEN FOR DIFFICULT LEARNING IN THE NEXT WEEK LIKE OH THAT ROOM IS AVAILABLE AND I AM LIKE WELL WITH A WHAT HAPPENED TO JOHN SMITH?

>> Reilly: YEAH.

I WOULD THINK THAT WOULD BE INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT.

JENNY D'OLYMPIA, WHAT WAS THE GENESIS OF THIS PODCAST?

WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE AND OTHER PEOPLE BEHIND IT DECIDE THIS WAS MANAGER YOU WANT DODD PUT OUT INTO THE WORLD?

>> WELL, AS A SCHOOL OF PSYCHOLOGY WE ARE VERY CONCERNED WITH PEOPLE'S WELL-BEING AND WE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING TO HELP.

SO AT FIRST WE SORT OF TRIED TO START DOING -- WE OFFERED SOME ONLINE ZOOM LIKE GROUP CRISIS INTERVENTION OR SUPPORT FOR NURSES AND WE DIDN'T FIND THAT NURSES WERE AVAILABLE.

THEY WERE TOO BUSY TAKING CARE OF PEOPLE AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME AVAILABLE TO TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES IN ORDER TO GO TO THESE GROUPS, SO WE WERE IN COMMUNICATION WITH LABOURE COLLEGE AND THEY WERE ALSO JESTED IN DOING SOMETHING TO HELP NURSES AND THEN WE DECIDED THAT MAYBE PODCASTS WOULD BE A WAY TO REACH OUT TO NURSES TO THE TALK ABOUT SELF CARE STRATEGIES, SELF COMPASSION, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE RISK FACTORS AND THINGS THEY SHOULD BE CONCERNED WITH, BECAUSE THESE ARE UNPRECEDENTED TIMES AND VERY DIFFICULT.

>> Reilly: YOU ARE AN AIR FORCE VETERAN, YOU DO A LOT OF WORK WITH VETERANS.

WHAT ARE THE PARALLELS YOU SEE BETWEEN POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS THAT MILITARY MEMBERS EXPERIENCE AND WHAT PEOPLE LIKE SHAINA ARE GOING THROUGH RIGHT NOW?

>> I FEEL A LOT OF PARALLELS, REALLY.

I THINK ONE OF THEM IS THE CAMARADERIE THAT NURSES HAVE WITH EACH OTHER, THE CONNECTION THAT THEY ARE BASICALLY IN THE BATTLE TOGETHER, JUST AS ARMED MILITARY VETERANS ARE.

THEY UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, THEY ARE AVAILABLE FOR EACH OTHER, AND THEN THEY HAVE THIS NEED TO PROTECT THOSE AROUND THEM AND DON'T WANT TO SHARE THOSE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED AT WORK WITH THEIR LOVED ONES AND I THINK THAT LEADS TO SEPARATION AND INABILITY TO CONNECT AND THEN MORE STRESS IN THE TIME WHERE THEY NEED TO CONNECT, IT IS HARD FOR THEM TO CONNECT, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT THEIR LOVED ONES TO SEE THE DIRTY THINGS THAT THEY HAVE SEEN.

AND I ALSO THINK THAT ANOTHER CONNECTION IS THAT OF MORAL INJURY.

I THE I THAT OUR MILITARY SERVICE, I THINK THAT MILITARY SERVICE MEMBERS EXPERIENCE THAT, HOW YOU SEE THAT WORLD IS, WHAT IS JUST AND MORAL IN THE WORLD AND THEN YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ..

CONTRARY TO THAT, WHERE YOU SEE SOMETHING HAPPEN, CONTRARY TO THAT OR SOMEONE IN CHARGE HAS YOU YOU KNOW, SORT OF DO SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T MATCH THE WAY YOU SEE THAT WORLD SHOULD BE AND OUR NURSES ARE EXPERIENCING THAT ON A DAILY BASIS.

>> Reilly: SO THE WORLD IS SUPPOSED TO WORK A CERTAIN WAY IN THIS CONCEPT OF MORAL INJURY THAT YOU ARTICULATED, THE WORLD IS SUPPOSED TO CONFORM TO A CERTAIN SET OF RULES AND REGULATIONS AND THEN IT DOESN'T FIT THOSE AND PEOPLE WHO COME TO EXPECT THOSE ARE UNDERSTANDABLY STRESSED AND MAYBE OVERWHELMED AS A RESULT?

IS THAT A FAIR PARAPHRASE?

>> YEAH.

I THINK SO.

AND I THINK OUR NURSES, THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT I DON'T KNOW, DO THEIR JOB AND HAVE ALL OF THE SUPPLIES THAT ARE AVAILABLE AND NEEDED IN ORDER TO DO A PERK JOB OF TAKING CARE OF ALL OF THE PATIENTS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND IN THIS SITUATION, THAT HASN'T ALWAYS BEEN POSSIBLE.

>> Reilly: AND AS SHAINA SAID, IT IS NOT JUST SUPPLIES IT IS PROTO CROSS, RIGHT?

THERE SHOULD BE THE PROTOCOLS IN PLACE YOU FOLLOW AND THEN DO YOUR JOB AND MAKE PEOPLE BETTER AND IF THE PROTOCOLS DON'T EXIST YOU ARE APHOTO.

>> SHAINA, LET ME ASK YOU, A PERSONAL QUESTION BUT FITS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE, HAVE YOU TAKEN STEPS TO GET HELP CAN DEALING WITH ANY FRUSTRATIONS, EXHAUSTION, AUDIENCE FEELINGS OF BEING OVERWHELMED OR GROUND DOWN YOU MAY BE EXPERIENCING AT THIS POINT IN THE PANDEMIC?

>> SO MY LIFE IS A GO, GO, GO LIFE.

0 I DON'T TAKE MUCH TIME TO, ANY TIME TO STOP AND PAUSE, EVEN WHEN WE ARE DOING PODCAST BETWEEN ASSIGNMENTS I WOULD TAKE A DAY OFF, GO TO THE NEXT, KEEP GOING AND AS WE EVEN TALKED IF YOU DON'T STOP AND ADDRESS IT, IT JUST BUILDS UP BUT IT IS ALWAYS IN THE BACKGROUND SO I NEVER HAD TO DEAL WITH IT.

ON STOPPING AND TAKING A PERMANENT POSITION AND NO LONGER TRAVELING HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST EYEOPENER FOR ME AS I NEED HELP, DR. D'OLYMPIA TALKS DURING THE PODCAST ABOUT A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT METHODS FOR NURSES TO TAKE DURING THE MOMENTS OF THOSE HIGH INTENSITY, TO PRACTICE SOME BEFOREHAND, BE UNDERSTANDING OF THEM, AWARE OF THEM AND THEN TO USE THEM DURING THOSE MOMENTS.

I IS A -- I HAVE DEFINITELY USED THEM AND CONTINUE TO USE THEM.

ONE SHE TALKS ABOUT IS SELF TOUCH AND JUST LIKE RUBBING YOUR ARM OR GIVING YOURSELF A HUG AND HAVING A MOMENT TO YOURSELF AND LIKE TREATING YOURSELF LIKE YOU WOULD A FRIEND, LIKE TALK TO YOURSELF, INSTEAD OF ME BEING LIKE OH, GOSH, SHANE NA, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH WOULD I TALK TO A FRIEND LINE THAT?

NO, SO I USE THOSE, BUT AS FOR SEEKING OUT THERAPY, I HAVE TO ADMIT I HAVE NOT YET, IT IS SOMETHING I DEFINITELY WILL, IT IS SOMETHING I KNOW I NEED, I HAVE BEEN IN THE MIDDLE OF STARTING A FULL-TIME JOB, MOVING, BUYING A HOME, SO I HAVE NOT STOPPED AS MUCH AS I TELL MYSELF I HAVE.

BUT IT IS SOMETHING WE HERE IN THE PODCAST, WE DID PODCAST AND WHEN IT ACTUALLY GOT PUT OUT TO THE PUBLIC IS THE FIRST TIME I HEARD IT IN ITS ENTIRETY, AND I E-MAILED THE LADIES LIKE SHORTLY THEREAFTER AND AFTER I EVEN GOT MY COVID SHOTS AND I SAID, LIKE WOW HEARING MYSELF IN THOSE MOMENTS IT JUST BRINGS BACK A LOT.

>> Reilly: I WOULD THINK THAT, OH, SORRY, GO AHEAD.

>> NO, NO.

I DON'T WANT TO SAY LIKE PTSD BECAUSE I ALWAYS SAY OUR MILITARY VETERANS DO SO MUCH MORE THAN I HAVE DONE, LIKE I AM VERY PROUD AND SUPPORTIVE OF THEM AND I THINK THEIR JOBS ARE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT THAN MINE, WAY TONIGHT GIVE THEM THE RESPECT THEY DESERVE BUT IT IS LIKE PTDSD OF KNOWING WHAT I HAD GONE THROUGH AND MAY SEE ONLY ONE OR TWO COVID PATIENTS NOT IN A COVID UNIT BUT IT BRINGS BACK MEMORIES OF SPECIFIC PATIENTS I HAVE WORKED WITH AND THINGS I OBVIOUSLY HAVE NOT OVERCOME.

>> Reilly: JENNY, LET ME ASK YOU IN CLOSING BEFORE WE WRAP UP, FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ON THE FRONT LINES OF THIS, WHETHER IT IS NURSES LIKE SHAINA OR I WOULD THINK MANY OF THESE ISSUES APPLY TO PEOPLE IN OTHER MEDICAL PROFESSIONS, INCLUDING PHYSICIANS, ARE THERE CERTAIN CUES PEOPLE MIGHT WANT TO BE ATTUNED TO, ALL RIGHT, I KNOW THIS IS SOMETHING I NEED TO DEAL WITH AT SOME POINT, I AM FEELING A CERTAIN WAY HERE OR THE TIME FOR KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD HAS PROBABLY PAST AND I SHOULD TACK UNTIL IMMEDIATELY?

>> YEAH.

I THINK THERE ARE DEFINITELY SOME SIGNS TO PAY ATTENTION TO.

I THINK IF YOU TRY TO GO BACK TO YOUR LIFE AS IT WAS BEFORE AND YOU KEEP SEEING THAT THESE SYMPTOMS ARE GETTING IN THE WAY OF YOUR FUNCTIONING, GETTING IN THE WAY OF YOUR CONNECTING WITH OTHERS, YOU ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY FALLING ASLEEP, STAYING ASLEEP OR WAKING UP EARLY AND YOU CAN'T GO BACK TO SLEEP, YOU ARE HAVING -- YOU ARE TRYING TO AVOID THOUGHTS OF THE EXPERIENCE, BUT THEY KEEP COMING BACK AND YOU HAVE TO PUSH THEM DOWN OR MAYBE YOU KNOW, YOU EVEN START TO FEEL LIKE A PHYSICAL AROUSAL OF ANXIETY WHEN YOU START, WHEN YOU START TO GO BACK TO THE HOSPITAL OR BACK NEAR THE LOCATION WHERE YOU HAVE THE EXPERIENCES.

I THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO START TALKING TO SOMEONE SO THAT YOU CAN GET SOME TOOLS TO SORT OF BRING THAT LEVEL OF ANXIETY DOWN, AND I THINK THAT IS AN IMPORTANT THING TO DO ALONG THE WAY, BECAUSE YOU NEED TO HAVE SKILLS AND TOOLS SO THAT YOU CANNOT JUST KEEP WORKING YOUR WAY UP THAT ANXIETY LADDER OR YOUR BODY WILL START TO STAY AT THAT LADDER AND THE BOTTOM, IT JUST SORT OF DROPS OUT, AND THEN IT BECOMES REALLY HARD TO WAIT IN LINE AT THE GROCERY STORE 0.

>> Reilly: YES, I WOULD IMAGINE.

>> IS HOW ANNOYING THOSE LOW STRESS EVENTS ARE THE ONES THAT SEND YOU OVER THE EDGE AND MAYBE YOU START HAVING ANGER OUTBURSTS AT YOUR FRIENDS OR YOUR FAMILY OR YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU ARE DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD, AND WE DON'T REALLY WANT TO DO THAT AROUND HERE.

>> Reilly: SO IF IT GETS TO THAT POINT OR BEFORE IT GETS TO THAT POINT, SEEK HELP.

JENNY D'OLYMPIA, SHAINA CURRAN, THANK YOU BOTH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: YOU CAN LISTEN TO "UNPRECEDENTED: NURSING IN A PANDEMIC", WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT DO COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "BEAT THE PRESS".

EMILY ROONEY AND HER PANEL WILL TAKE UP THE AGE-OLD ARGUMENT ABOUT PREJUDICE AND CANCER IN THE COURTROOM AND THE DEREK CHAUVIN MURDER TRIAL.

PLUS NEARLY 140 FILM FILM MAKERS ARE CALLING OUT PBS FOR A PLAQUE OF DIVERSITY.

AND THIS THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00, JIM WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

>> Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org