>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THE MASS KIDNAPPING THAT SHOCKED THE WORLD.

WE REVISIT NIGERIA'S GIRLS, TEN YEARS AFTER THEIR LIVES WERE CHANGED FOREVER.

>>> AND -- >> HAVING BEEN RUN OVER BY JUSTICE, I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE END OF MY LIFE.

>> THE UNBELIEVABLE LIFE STORY OF YUSEF SALAAM, IMPRISONED AS A TEEN FOR A CRIME HE DID NOT COMMIT, THE EXONERATED CENTRAL PARK FIVE MEN TELLS ME HOW IT FELT TO WIN A SETON NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL.

>>> PLUS --.

THERE ARE LARGE GROUPS AND ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE PREPARING TO CONTINUE THE FIGHT.

>> IS AMERICA PREPARED FOR POLITICAL VIOLENCE?

HOMELAND SECURITY EXPERT JULIETTE KAYYEM TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT POTENTIAL ELECTION REACTION.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.

IN HIS CRIMINAL TRIAL AND NOW IN DEATH, HE TAKES UP SO MUCH OXYGEN.

O.J.

SIMPSON HAS DIED FROM CANCER AT THE AGE OF 76.

THE FORMER NFL STAR WAS THE CENTER OF AMERICAN ATTENTION IN THE MID 1990s, ACCUSED OF BRUTALLY KILLING HIS EX-WIFE NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND HER FRIEND RON GOLDMAN.

THE TV TRIAL GRIPPED THE COUNTRY, AND HIS EVENTUAL ACQUITTAL WAS A PIVOTAL MOMENT IN THE AMERICAN LANDSCAPE.

HOWEVER, TWO YEARS LATER, A JURY IN A CIVIL TRIAL FOUND O.J.

SIMPSON LIABLE FOR THEIR DEATHS AND ORDERED HIM TO PAY $33.5 MILLION IN DAMAGES.

SIMPSON'S TROUBLE WITH THE LAW DID NOT END THERE.

HE WAS ARRESTED IN 2007 IN LAS VEGAS AND FOUND GUILTY OF 12 CHARGES, INCLUDING KIDNAPPING AND ARMED ROBBERY.

HE WAS RELEASED FROM PRISON IN 2017.

JOINING ME NOW ON THIS IS THE CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST JOEY JACKSON, AND ALSO WITH US ANN OLIVARIUS.

SHE IS AN ATTORNEY WHO SPECIALIZES IN ANTI-DISCRIMINATION CASE, INCLUDING SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND ABUSE.

SO WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.

I WANT TO TURN TO YOU, ANN OLIVARIUS, FIRST.

THE VICTIMS HERE WERE TWO WHITE PEOPLE, A WHITE WOMAN, AND YOU IN FACT TWEETED TODAY ON THE NEWS OF THE DEATH THAT NICOLE SIMPSON DID NOT DIE AT 76 YEARS OLD IN BED SURROUNDED BY CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN, AS APPARENTLY O.J.

DID.

WHAT MADE YOU DO THAT?

WHAT'S YOUR RELATIONSHIP TO THIS MOMENT, TO THIS CASE?

>> WELL, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, I WAS -- I'M 69.

SO I WAS THERE WATCHING THAT TRIAL AS MUCH AS I COULD WHEN IT WENT ON.

AND SOY WAS VERY MUCH CAUGHT UP IN THAT.

AND LIKE MANY PEOPLE WAS HUGELY SURPRISED AT THE VERDICT IN THAT CASE.

AND SO I FOLLOWED HIS LIFE SINCE.

AND I DO A LOT OF WORK NOW ON SEXUAL ASSAULT AND DISCRIMINATION, AND OF COURSE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

AND WHAT WE SEE, MUCH LIKE WE SAW WITH THE AMBER HEARD TRIAL IN BRITAIN WHEN AMBER HEARD WAS FIRST IN A CASE AGAINST HER EX-HUSBAND JOHNNY DEPP, SHE WON THAT CASE, AND THERE WAS A VERY ESTEEMED JUDGE NICHOL WHO FOUND THAT THERE WERE 13 ACTS OF PHYSICAL VIOLENCE DONE TO HER BY JOHNNY DEPP.

SHE GOES TO -- HAS TO TAKE UP THE SAME ISSUE IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA, AND OF COURSE SHE LOSES THE CASE THERE.

AND IT'S A HUGE MEDIA FIASCO WITH THE JUDGE WHO PERHAPS ONE MIGHT SAY IS NOT IN CONTROL OF THE COURTROOM AND IT'S A CASE WHERE CELEBRITY CAN BUY SOCIAL MEDIA BOTS, AND WHERE SHE IS DESTROYED OUTSIDE OF THE COURTROOM WHICH INVADES THE COURTROOM.

O.J.

SIMPSON, AGAIN, A CELEBRITY HIMSELF.

HERE HE IS IN TRIAL.

JUDGE ITO, MANY HAVE CRITICIZED OF NOT BEING IN CONTROL OF THAT COURTROOM, OF WANTING THE PUBLICITY VERY MUCH.

THE TRIAL GOES ON FOR NINE MONTHS.

IT'S WILD.

AND, AGAIN, O.J.

SIMPSON PREVAILS.

AND ONE MIGHT THINK THAT AGAINST THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS THERE, THAT WAS AN OUTCOME THAT WAS SURPRISING.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, JOEY, BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT THIS, YOU'RE ON OUR AIR A LOT TALKING ABOUT THIS.

YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE SO FAMILIAR WITH THE WHOLE STORY.

THIS WAS A CASE, THOUGH, ABOUT A BLACK HERO, A SPORTS HERO HAVING BEEN ACCUSED OF THESE TWO TERRIBLY VIOLENT MURDERS THAT DIVIDED THE NATION, DIVIDED BLACK AND WHITE AMERICA.

TAKE US BACK TO THAT MOMENT.

>> YEAH, IT WAS A PIVOTAL MOMENT.

AND I THINK A VERY HISTORICAL ONE, AND CERTAINLY WHAT SHOULD NEVER BE LOST IS THE FACT THAT THERE ARE TWO VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES I'M SURE ARE AILING TO THIS DAY AND WILL ALWAYS AIL AT THE FACT THAT THEY WERE DEAD, RIGHT.

THE ISSUE IS AT WHOSE HANDS.

AND I THINK IT WILL BE CONTROVERSIAL UNTIL THE END OF TIME WHETHER OR NOT O.J.

SIMPSON IS RESPONSIBLE.

MANY WERE SHOCKED.

IF YOU GO BACK AND YOU EVALUATE WHAT CAMERAS CAUGHT WERE VARIOUS GROUPS AND ORGANIZATIONS WHO WERE WATCHING THE VERDICT, REMEMBER, THE WORLD STOPPED TO WATCH THE VERDICT, YOU'LL SEE VARIOUS REACTIONS.

SOME PEOPLE IN SHOCK.

ARE YOU KIDDING?

A JURY GOT IT COMPLETELY WRONG.

OTHERS IN COMPLETE JOY AND JUBILATION OVER A JURY THAT GOT IT RIGHT AND FINALLY DID JUSTICE FOR A MEMBER OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

SO IT WILL BE CONTROVERSIAL FOREVER, I DO BELIEVE.

AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE CIVIL CASE.

AND IN THE CIVIL CASE, WHAT YOU SAW WAS A FAMILY ATTEMPT TO BRING ACCOUNTABILITY.

NOW CIVIL CASES ARE NOT CRIMINAL IN NATURE.

THEY DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS LIABILITY THAT IS RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ISSUE AT HAND, WHICH IS THE DEATHS OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, AND OF COURSE MR. GOLDMAN.

AND THEN THE ISSUE WOULD THEN BE WHAT MONETARY DAMAGES.

AND AS YOU ASSERTED ALREADY, CHRISTIANE, THERE WAS A $33.5 MILLION VERDICT FINDING HIM RESPONSIBLE.

BUT GOING BACK TO CRIMINAL VERDICT, I THINK YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CONTEXT OF THE TIMES.

THERE WAS ALSO SOMETHING VERY PIVOTAL THAT HAPPENED IN AMERICA IN 1992.

AND THAT WAS THE BEATING OF RODNEY KING.

RODNEY KING WAS BLACK MOTORIST WHO WAS PULLED OUT OF HIS CAR.

AND THE VIDEOTAPE WAS SEEN EVERYWHERE.

I WOULD SAY INTERNATIONALLY OF THE FIERCE BEATING HE GOT, AND THEN THE EQUITLE OF THE OFFICERS OF THE LAPD THEREAFTER.

AND THEN YOU INTEREST O.J.

SIMPSON CASE, WHERE THE DEFENSE IN THAT CASE, THE DEFENSE TEAM MADE UP OF LAWYERS WHO ARE JUST HISTORICAL, F. LEE BAILEY, JOHNNIE COCHRAN, BARRY SCHECK, ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ATTORNEYS WHO ARE JUST EXCEPTIONAL AT THEIR CRAFT THAT REALLY CAME TOGETHER.

AND I THINK WHAT THEY WERE ABLE TO DO IS DEFLECT THE ISSUE AND NOT MAKE IT JUST ABOUT THE KILLINGS, RIGHT, OF TWO PRECIOUS SOULS, BUT TO MAKE IT ABOUT THE LAPD AND THE RACISM AND THE HISTORICAL ALLEGED RACISM.

YOU HAVE MARK FUHRMAN WHO WAS AN INVESTIGATOR WHO THEY ASSERTED AND WERE ABLE TO PROVE USED THE N-WORD.

SO I THINK THAT DEFLECTION REALLY TURNED THE TABLES FROM A CASE ABOUT TWO PEOPLE WHO DIED TO AN INSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM THAT HISTORICALLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AFRICAN AMERICANS, O.J.

SIMPSON BEING AN AFRICAN AMERICAN CELEBRITY.

AND THERE YOU HAVE NOW A JURY THAT MADE A DETERMINATION, I THINK, THAT WAS VERY BROAD.

AND THAT BROAD DETERMINATION IS WE'RE NOT GOING TO STAND FOR IT ANYMORE.

AND I THINK HE WAS LARGELY ACQUITTED BECAUSE OF REALLY A REFERENDUM ON AN LAPD THAT HAD RUN AMOK AS OPPOSED TO WHETHER HE COMMITTED THOSE CRIMES.

YOU TO LOOK AT IT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CRIMES.

DID THEY GET IT RIGHT?

DID THEY GET IT WRONG?

WE CAN DEBATE THAT DAY AND NIGHT.

DIFFERENT PEOPLE WILL DISAGREE.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN AMERICA AT THAT TIME, THE JURY WAS GRAMMING WITH SO MUCH.

AND I THINK WITH GRAPPLING SO MUCH, THAT'S WHY THEY MAY HAVE REACHED THE DETERMINATION, CHRISTIANE, THAT THEY ULTIMATELY DID, FINDING HIM NOT GUILTY.

>> AND OF COURSE THE YEARS HAVE PASSED AND ACTUALLY VIEWPOINTS HAVE CHANGED.

WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT.

BUT FIRST, I WANT TO GO BACK TO YOU, ANN OLIVARIUS, BECAUSE HERE WAS A WOMAN, HIS EX-WIFE BY THIS TIME WHO HAD ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS CALLED THE POLICE, CALLED HOTLINES, WAS DESPERATE TO BE HELPED FROM WHAT SHE ALLEGED WAS A VIOLENT FORMER HUSBAND.

SHE BASICALLY SAID THAT SHE WAS AFRAID OF HIM, HE BEAT HER.

IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE CRIME CALLS TO SHELTERS AND HELPLINES AS YOU KNOW EXPLODED.

SHE WAS VERY AFRAID.

AT ONE POINT SHE SAID HE IS GOING TO KILL ME.

THE POLICE CAME AROUND HERE.

SHE HAD A SPLIT LIP AND A BLACK EYE, AND SHE ALLUDED TO PAST CALLS TO THE POLICE, SAYING TO THE OFFICERS, "YOU NEVER DO ANYTHING ABOUT HIM.

YOU TALK TO HIM AND THEN LEAVE."

HE EVENTUALLY PLEADED NO CONTEST TO BATTERY CHARGES, ET CETERA, SPOUSAL BATTERY.

PUT THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF HOW WOMEN LIKE NICOLE SIMPSON WERE DISBELIEVED IN THOSE DAYS NOW, ALL THOSE YEARS BACK IN THE '90s AND BEFORE, ALL THE WAY BACK BEFORE, YOU KNOW, THE ME TOO MOVEMENT.

>> YES.

CHRISTIANE, ALL THAT'S BEEN SAID ABOUT RACISM AND THE BACKDROP, IT'S TRUE.

THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

BUT WHAT DOESN'T GET SAID STILL ARE THE POINTS YOU'RE RAISING, THAT WOMEN AND WOMEN'S TRUTH, THEY GET FORGOTTEN ABOUT, THAT THIS IS NOT THE LEAD PIECE OF THIS STORY IS SHOCKING TO ME.

SHE HAD PICTURES THAT WERE IN HER SAFE OF HER BEING BATTERED BY HIM.

THEY'RE GROTESQUE PICTURES, UTTER PROOF THAT SHE WAS A PUNCHING BAG FOR THIS MAN.

WE SAY BACK THEN, WELL, WE DIDN'T LISTEN TO WOMEN OR THEIR TRUTHS OR THEIR TESTIMONY.

BUT THE FACT IS WITH AMBER HEARD, WE DIDN'T LISTEN EITHER, AND SHE HAD ALREADY HAD JOHNNY DEPP CONVICTED IN BRITAIN IN A VERY -- BEFORE AN EDUCATED JUDGE AND A VERY CAREFUL OPINION.

SO ARE WE STILL, HAS IT CHANGED?

STILL PEOPLE LOOK TO RACISM WHICH IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITHOUT A DOUBT AND WITH TOTAL RESPECT, I BOW TO THAT.

BUT THE ASPECTS STILL THAT IN THE COVERAGE TODAY EVEN WHEN THIS IS BROKEN, THE FACT THAT HER VOICE WAS NOT HEARD.

THE FACT THAT SHE WAS A DEEPLY BATTERED WOMAN, A TOTAL PUNCHING BAG FOR THIS MAN, AND THERE IS NO PERSPECTIVE INTO THAT.

IT'S BARELY MENTIONED.

OKAY, IT'S A MINOR PIECE, SURE.

BUT WHY ISN'T THAT THE CENTRAL STORY?

AND WHY DOES DOMESTIC BATTERY STILL GO ON?

AND WE SAW WIT AMBER HEARD.

IT'S STILL CONTINUING AND WE'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

WE DON'T DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

>> WHICH IS ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WAS MY FIRST QUESTION TO YOU.

BUT I WANT TO GO BACK TO JOEY AS WELL.

TALKING ABOUT NOT JUST THE RACIAL DIVIDE, BUT ALSO THE CELEBRITY STATUS.

O.J.

SIMPSON WAS A CELEBRITY, LIKE SO MANY CELEBRITIES, WHO ARE GENERALLY GIVEN THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

BUT JOEY, I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.

IN THE MANY YEARS EVEN BEYOND WHEN HE WAS FOUND CIVIL LIABLE FOR THEIR DEATHS, BEFORE THE LANDMARK DOCUMENTARY, A CNN POLL FOUND THAT 53% OF BLACK PEOPLE SURVEYED SAID THE MURDER CHARGES AGAINST SIMPSON WERE EITHER DEFINITELY TRUE OR PROBABLY TRUE.

HE CONTINUED TO MAINTAIN HIS INNOCENCE.

AND HE'S NEVER APOLOGIZED OR COME CLOSE TO IT.

JOEY, WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED IN THOSE INTERVENING YEARS?

EXPLAIN THE PSYCHOLOGY, THE BELIEFS, THE EVIDENCE MAYBE THAT GOT SO MANY OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY TO SHIFT TO A MAJORITY WHO THEN BELIEVED HE WAS IN FACT PROBABLY GUILTY?

>> YEAH, SO THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT ARE VERY IMPORTANT.

BEFORE I DO THAT, ANN RAISES SOME VERY CRITICAL AND IMPORTANT CONCERNS.

AND THE CONCERNS ARE THAT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS AN ISSUE.

THERE NEEDS TO BE PEOPLE WHO GIVE VOICE TO THAT.

AND CERTAINLY PEOPLE WHO ARE THE VICTIM OF THAT NEED TO BE HEARD.

I THINK THE DEFENSE RELATING IT TO THIS PARTICULAR CASE, CHRISTIANE, WAS VERY ADEPT AT REALLY DEFLECTING AND, AGAIN, CHANGING THE NARRATIVE FROM THAT, RIGHT, TO THE NARRATIVE OF A REFERENDUM ON LAPD.

SO I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR THAT EVERYTHING ANN SAYS WITH RESPECT TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND ABUSE AND HEARING WOMEN NEEDS TO BE HEARD AND IS VERY VALID.

BUT I THINK AS IT RELATED TO THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THE DEFENSE REALLY DEFLECTED MASTERFULLY FROM THAT ISSUE AND MADE IT ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

TO THE CORE OF YOUR QUESTION, CHRISTIANE, IN SHIFTING OF MOVEMENT AND VIEWS, I THINK NUMBER ONE THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A VIEW, RIGHT, IN THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY THAT WE HAVE A CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT MAY NOT BE AS FAIR, THAT MAY POLICE AFRICAN AMERICANS AND OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN THEY DO OTHERS IN OTHER COMMUNITIES THAT ARE MORE AFFLUENT POTENTIALLY.

SO I THINK THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY IN THE O.J.

CASE TOOK THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO SORT OF YOU KNOW, LOOK FOR JUSTICE BY THEM MAKING IT, THE DEFENSE TEAM A REFERENDUM ON THAT.

THE OTHER ISSUE IS O.J.

SIMPSON, YOU CAN ARGUE AND DEBATE WHETHER HE HAS REALLY BEEN A CHILD OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY, OR WHEN IT WAS JUST CONVENIENT, AS IT RELATED TO THIS CASE.

AND I THINK AS PEOPLE HAVE LEARNED MORE, AND PERHAPS OVER THE YEARS, PEOPLE'S VIEWS ALWAYS CHANGE ABOUT OTHER MATTERS.

PEOPLE BECOME ENLIGHTENED FOR A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT REASONS.

>> YEAH.

>> BUT I THINK BACK THEN, THE CONTEXT OF THE TIMES THERE, AND SO MUCH RACIALLY GOING ON, I THINK IT -- IT'S HARD TO IGNORE THE RACIAL COMPONENT.

I THINK AS TIME GOES ON, PEOPLE LOOK ANEW, PERHAPS THEY HAVE A NEW EVALUATION OF HOW THEY SEE THIS.

AND LET'S NOT FORGET LAST POINT THAT AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT HE WAS HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

MAYBE NOT CRIMINALLY, BUT ACCOUNTABLE IN THE CIVIL CASES THAT PROCEEDED BASED UPON WHAT HIS ACTIONS THAT THAT JURY DEEMED TO BE AND THAT HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR DEATHS.

>> AND REALLY BRIEFLY, ANN, WHAT IT DID IS CHANGE THE MEDIA LANDSCAPE, PARTICULARLY ON CABLE.

THIS 24/7, OVERHEAD CAMERAS STILL EXIST.

HAS THAT BEEN GOOD OR BAD FOR SOCIETY AND FOR JUSTICE?

>> I MEAN, MY OWN VIEW AS THE LAWYER WHO LITIGATES ALL THE TIME BOTH IN BRITAIN AND IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN IRELAND, I THINK THAT THE CAMERAS, UNLESS YOU'VE GOT A REALLY GOOD JUDGE, THE CAMERAS IN THE COURTROOM ARE NOT GOOD.

IT'S GREAT FOR DEMOCRACY TO ACTUALLY BE PUT ON SCREEN.

BUT WHAT YOU DO AS WITH JUDGE ITO, AND WHAT WE FOUND OUT IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA WITH OF COURSE THE AMBER HEARD CASE YOU HAVE JUDGES WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE COURTROOM, WHO ARE NOT DOING THEIR JOBS PROPERLY, I WOULD SAY.

AND THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM.

AND IT BECOMES A MEDIA FEST.

AND THAT'S NOT GOOD FOREDEMOCRACY.

>> WELL, THANK YOU BOTH, ANN OLIVARIUS AND JOEY, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR BEING WITH US.

AND TO THE POINT OF THE SYSTEM AND THE UNFAIRNESS OF THE SYSTEM THAT WAS A BIG FACTOR IN THE O.J.

CASE, YEARS BEFORE THAT, A MASS MEDIA STORY HERE IN NEW YORK ALSO CAUGHT THE COUNTRY'S ATTENTION, BUT THIS ONE SHOWED A TRUE MISCARRIAGE OF JUSTICE AGAINST YOUNG TEENAGERS BLACK AND LATINO.

IN 1989, AMERICA WAS SHOCKED BY THE ASSAULT AND RAPE OF A FEMALE JOGGER HERE IN CENTRAL PARK.

THE POLICE QUICKLY ARRESTED SIX TEENS AND SENT FIVE OF THEM TO PRISON.

THEY WERE LABELLED THE CENTRAL PARK FIVE AND WERE VILIFIED IN THE PRESS.

DONALD TRUMP EVEN CALLED FOR THE RETURN OF THE DEATH PENALTY IN FULL PAGE ADDS ACROSS MULTIPLE NEWSPAPERS.

BUT THE FIVE TEENAGERS WERE INNOCENT.

AND DESPITE MULTIPLE GLARING FAILINGS IN THE INVESTIGATION, THEY SPENT YEARS IN JAIL.

EVENTUALLY, IN 2002, THE REAL ATTACKER CONFESSED, AND THEIR CONVICTIONS WERE VACATED.

AND THAT YEAR, ONE OF THE EXONERATED FIVE, YUSEF SALAAM, BECAME A MEMBER OF THE NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL.

HE WAS ELECTED.

AND I SAT DOWN WITH HIM HERE IN MANHATTAN.

YUSEF SALAAM, COUNSELOR SALAAM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> I WAS A JOURNALIST BASED HERE IN NEW YORK WHEN ALL OF THIS HAPPENED, AND I COVERED SOME OF WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU.

AND I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU EVER THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD GET FROM THAT POINT OF THE WORST TIME IN YOUR LIFE TO BEING AN ELECTED CITY COUNCIL MEMBER IN NEW YORK.

>> I THINK THAT THAT PERHAPS WAS THE FURTHEST THING FROM MY MIND, YOU KNOW.

AS A YOUNG 15-YEAR-OLD CHILD, HAVING BEEN RUN OVER BY THE SPIKED WHEELS OF JUSTICE, I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE END OF MY LIFE.

I THOUGHT MY LIFE WOULD NEVER BE THE SAME.

OF COURSE IT HAS NEVER BEEN THE SAME.

BUT TO BE AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, WOW.

NEVER IMAGINED.

>> AND THERE IS SO MUCH POWER, ELECTED POWER, POWER FROM THE PEOPLE THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW TO I'M JUST GOING TO USE THIS WORD, AVENGE YOURSELF OF WHAT WAS DONE TO YOU.

SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE POLICE, FOR INSTANCE, AND POLICE REFORM, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

CUT OFF THEIR FUNDING?

PUT THEM IN AN ACCOUNTABILITY BOX?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, I THINK THE GOOD THING ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE IS I GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO USE THE WHOLE OF IT TO DIRECT ME, YOU KNOW.

BEING A SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE AND BEING A PERSON WHO HAS BEEN NOT JUST CLOSE TO THE PAIN, BUT HAS BEEN IN PAIN, A LOT OF THE EXPERIENCES THAT OUR COMMUNITY EXPERIENCES, I'VE EXPERIENCED FIRSTHAND, YOU KNOW.

AND SO BEING A SPOKESMAN FOR THE PEOPLE AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL IS DIFFERENT FOR ME BECAUSE I GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY USE THAT IN A REALLY POWERFUL WAY, RIGHT.

I NEVER SAY THINGS LIKE DEFUND THE POLICE, BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE THE POLICE ARE NECESSARY.

BUT WHEN I THINK ABOUT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT POLICE DEPARTMENTS DO AND POLICE OFFICERS DO, I KNOW THAT THERE IS WAYS THAT WE CAN RIGHT SIZE BUDGETS.

WE CAN ALLOW FOR THE RIGHT PERSON TO RESPOND TO THE RIGHT SITUATION.

AND OFTEN TIMES THAT'S NOT THE POLICE, YOU KNOW.

IF THERE IS SOMEONE WHO IS EXPERIENCING A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS, THERE IS A LOT OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT ACTUALLY WORK IN THAT SPACE.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE BUDGET.

THEY'RE WORKING ON A SHOESTRING BUDGET.

SO OFTENTIMES TO HELP TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM, IT REQUIRES A DIFFERENT TYPE OF.

IT REQUIRES A CHANGE FROM WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING TO WHAT WE COULD DO.

>> AND YOU ASKED IN YOUR FIRST HEARING AS CHAIRMAN OF THE PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE, YOU PRESSED THE NYPD TO EXPLAIN HOW IT PREVENTS WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS NOW.

YOU WERE OBVIOUSLY WRONGFULLY CONVICTED ALONG WITH THE OTHER FOUR.

DID YOU GET AN ANSWER?

>> I'M SPEAKING FROM A PERSON WHO EXPERIENCED THE FULL BRUNT OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

AND THE INDIVIDUALS WHO INTERROGATED US WEREN'T BEGINNERS.

THEY WEREN'T NEOPHYTES.

THESE WERE OFFICER, IN FACT DETECTIVES WHO HAD AT LEAST 20 YEARS ON THE JOB.

WHAT I KNOW ABOUT THE DETECTIVES THAT INTERROGATED US, THEY KNEW THAT THEY WERE GETTING INCONSISTENT AND INCORRECT STORIES.

THEY KNEW THAT WHAT THEY WERE HEARING AS FALSE STATEMENTS JUST TO SAVE THE LIVES OF US WHO WERE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET OUT OF THE NIGHTMARE WE WERE NOW IN.

>> YOU WOULD TRY TO TELL THEM ANYTHING TO STOP WHATEVER HARSH TREATMENT AND GET YOURSELF OUT?

>> SO I DIDN'T MAKE A FALSE CONFESSION.

BUT FOUR OF MY COMRADES DID.

BUT I'M SAYING THAT WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THOSE CONFESSIONS, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WERE DIFFERENT.

I NEVER FORGET, YOU KNOW, IN THE CENTRAL PARK FIVE DOCUMENTARY, RAYMOND SANTANA READS HIS FALSE CONFESSION.

>> SCRATCH ON FACE, WAS STRUGGLING WITH A FEMALE.

>> AND HE STOPS MIDWAY THROUGH, LOOKS UP AT THE CAMERA, AND I REMEMBER BEING IN THE AUDIENCE WATCHING WITH THE AUDIENCE.

>> A 14-YEAR-OLD BOY DOESN'T TALK LIKE THIS.

>> AND IT WAS -- YOU COULD HEAR THE AUDIBLE GASP IN THE ROOM.

IT WAS ALMOST AS IF EVERYONE HAD REALIZED THAT THEY'D BEEN TRICKED TOO.

AND I KNOW THAT THERE IS A WAY FORWARD.

AND THE WAY FORWARD IS TO NOT HAVE THE WRONG PERSON IN PRISON.

BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE WRONG PERSON IN PRISON, OFTENTIMES THE REAL CRIMINAL IS OUT COMMITTING MORE CRIME.

>> THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU ALL, BECAUSE YOU WERE WRONGFULLY IMPRISONED.

AND FINALLY, THIS OTHER PERSON ADMITTED TO IT, SUBMITTED DNA, ADMITTED TO IT.

DO YOU REMEMBER HOW THE PRISON OFFICIALS REACTED TO YOU OR THE POLICE OR THE LAW ENFORCEMENT?

WAS THERE SHAME?

WAS THERE SHOCK?

WAS THERE REGRET FOR WHAT THEY HAD DONE TO YOU?

>> YOU KNOW, FOR ME, MY EXPERIENCE IN WHAT I CALL THE WOMB OF AMERICA -- I KNOW OFTENTIMES IN OUR COMMUNITY THEY CALL IT THE BELLY OF THE BEAST -- WAS DIFFERENT.

THERE WAS A KNOWING OF SORTS FROM MANY OF THE OFFICERS.

THEY KNEW I WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE THERE.

AND THEY GAVE ME GRACE AND MERCY.

THEY ALLOWED ME TO READ BOOKS AND DRAW AND JUST KIND OF BE STILL.

>> I WANT TO JUST ASK YOU, WHERE DID YOU GET THE COURAGE, THE STRENGTH, THE FORTITUDE, THE RESOLVE NOT TO SIGN A FALSE CONFESSION LIKE YOUR OTHER FOUR COMRADES DID?

>> A LOT OF IT WAS MY FAITH.

I FOR ONE, JUST LIKE THE OTHERS, I'M SURE, WE KEPT TELLING THE OFFICERS WHAT HAPPENED.

AND FOR ME IT WAS JUST THIS STRANGE NIGHTMARE WHERE THEY KEPT SAYING IS THIS WHERE YOU GOT THE JOGGER?

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT.

I HEARD THEM BEATING UP KOREY WISE IN THE NEXT ROOM.

AND SOMETIMES THEY WOULD COME INTO THE ROOM I WAS IN AND TELL ME I WAS NEXT.

SOY WAS VERY AFRAID.

AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

BUT I KNEW THAT I HADN'T RAPED A WOMAN.

I KNEW THAT YOU KNOW, I WAS THINKING THAT I WAS THE GOOD GUY.

I WAS GOING TO GO TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, TELL THEM WHAT I SAW, AND I'D BE HOME BEFORE MY MOM GOT BACK.

I CAME HOME SEVEN YEARS LATER.

AND BECAUSE KOREY WISE WAS WITH ME, HE CAME HOME 13 YEARS LATER.

LOOK AT DODD.

BECAUSE KOREY PERSEVERED AND WAS STICK TO ITTIVE IN HIS INNOCENCE, THE REAL PERPETRATOR MET HIM AGAIN IN PRISON AND TOLD THE TRUTH.

>> IT'S JUST INCREDIBLE.

DID YOU EVER FIND OUT WHAT MOTIVATED THE REAL RAPIST TO TELL THE TRUTH?

>> I THINK HIS WORDS WAS THAT HE HAD STARTED GOING TO CHURCH.

HE STARTED TO TRY TO ATONE FOR THE CRIMES THAT HE DID.

YOU KNOW, AT THE VERY END OF HIS CRIME SPREE, HE WAS TRYING TO KILL ALL OF HIS VICTIMS.

THE LAST VICTIM, A YOUNG WOMAN NAMED LOURDES GONZALEZ.

AS HE TELLS IT, HE COMES INTO HER HOME, BRANDISHES A KNIFE.

SHE'S PREGNANT.

SHE IS BIG PREGNANT.

AND SHE PLEADS WITH HIM.

CAN YOU LET ME PUT MY BABIES IN THE NEXT ROOM?

AND OF COURSE HE SAID YES.

SHE PUTS THEM IN THE ROOM AND LOCKS THE DOOR.

AND I CAN ONLY IMAGINE SHE'S PROBABLY THINKING THIS IS GOING TO BE THE WORST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO ME.

BUT I'M GOING GET THROUGH IT.

HER HUSBAND WASN'T THERE.

SHE WAS THERE WITH HER CHILDREN.

SHE'S PREGNANT.

HE THEN RAPES HER AND THEN HE STABS HER TO DEATH, KILLING HER AND HER UNBORN CHILD.

NOW WHEN I THINK ABOUT THAT, THIS IS MONTHS AFTER THE CENTRAL PARK JOGGER CASE, SHE COULD HAVE BEEN ALIVE TODAY HAD THE DETECTIVES SAID SOMETHING ISN'T ADDING UP.

THESE GUYS ARE TELLING FALSE NARRATIVES.

THIS IS NOT HOW IT HAPPENED.

SOMETHING ELSE IS GOING ON HERE.

LET'S GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND LOOK AT THIS CASE WITH NEW EYES AND NEW INFORMATION.

>> IT'S AN INCREDIBLE STORY AND FULL OF INSTRUCTION AS WELL FOR THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO WITH YOUR TERM IN OFFICE AFTER HAVING EXPERIENCED ALL THIS?

YOU'VE GOT POLICE REFORM.

YOU'RE VERY INTERESTED IN TRYING TO GET AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

YEAR A COUNCILMAN FOR HARLEM.

IS THERE A NUMBER ONE ON YOUR LIST OF LEGISLATIVE PRIORITIES?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND MORE OF IT.

THAT IS TOP, BAR NONE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I THINK ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING, I THINK ABOUT A PERSON WHO HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO PLAN IN SAFETY.

A PERSON WHO CAN AFFORD THEIR RENT AND NOT HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE BETWEEN WHETHER THEY CAN FEED THEIR FAMILY OR AFFORD THE RENT.

THE RENTS IN NEW YORK CITY ARE ASTRONOMICALLY HIGH.

AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE BECAUSE THE PAY THAT PEOPLE RECEIVE HAS NOT MET UP WITH THE TIMES.

WE NEED TO BE THRIVING.

AND I THINK WHEN WE GO FROM A POSITION OF SURVIVAL TO THRIVING, IT GIVES US THE LARGEST OPPORTUNITY TO DIG DEEP AND PROVIDE THE VERY BEST OF OURSELVES.

A LOT OF OUR RESOURCES, A LOT OF OUR POWER IS LEAVING NEW YORK.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING I CAN'T AFFORD TO CONTINUE IN THIS WAY SO THEREFORE, THEY'RE LEAVING TO OTHER PLACES THAT THEY CAN AFFORD.

AND OF COURSE WITH THEM, WHEN THEY LEAF, THEIR POWER LEAVES.

AND SO WHEN I'M THINKING ABOUT LEGISLATIVELY, THE BIGGEST THING THAT WE HAVE TO, THAT ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, IT'S AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

>> YOU OBVIOUSLY WERE VERY FAMOUS, INFAMOUS FOR A WHILE.

WHAT DO PEOPLE -- HOW DO PEOPLE REACT TO YOU WHEN THEY PASS YOU IN THE STREETS?

ESPECIALLY YOUNG KIDS, MAYBE OLDER PEOPLE AS WELL.

>> I GOT TO TELL YOU, I GET A MIXED RESPONSE, BUT A LARGE PART OF THE RESPONSE MAKES ME FEEL LIKE EVERYONE IS COUNTING ON ME TO USE A MAGIC WAND AND JUST CHANGE EVERYTHING.

I'M TRYING TO ENCOURAGE OUR COMMUNITY, OUR CONSTITUENTS, REALLY, TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE MIRACLE IS US ORGANIZING, US COMING TOGETHER.

US REALIZING THAT EVERY PART OF THE PUZZLE MATTERS AND IS SIGNIFICANT.

EVEN THE SMALLEST PIECE.

IF YOU PUT THE PUZZLE TOGETHER AND THAT PIECE IS NOT THERE, IT'S NOT A COMPLETE PICTURE.

>> YOU'RE A RELIGIOUS PERSON, AND YOU WERE SWORN IN.

YOU PUT YOUR HAND ON THE KORAN.

TELL ME THIS.

I ASKED YOU TO BRING IT, BECAUSE I FIND IT REALLY EMBLEMATIC OF YOUR WHOLE EXPERIENCE.

NOT ONLY IS THE KORAN THERE, REMINDED US WHO GAVE IT TO YOU, BUT ALSO THERE IS A COVER, AND REMIND US HOW THAT COVER CAME INTO BEING.

>> YEAH, THIS KORAN IS 35 YEARS OLD.

THIS IS THE VERY FIRST KORAN THAT I WAS GIVEN TO, GIVEN BY MY MOTHER.

SHE GAVE THIS TO ME.

AND ISRAEL ABLE TO, IF YOU LOOK AT THE OLD PHOTOS OF ME WALKING IN AND OUT OF THE COURTROOM, THIS IS THE KORAN THAT I HAD WITH ME AS I WALKED IN AND OUT OF THE COURTROOM.

I WAS ABLE TO TAKE THIS WITH ME INTO THE PRISON.

AND I READ IT FOR THE FIRST TIME FROM THE FRONT, FROM THE BEGINNING.

AND I READ IT FROM COVER TO COVER, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I PUT IT IN THIS COVER.

I ACTUALLY CREATED THIS COVER.

I HAND SEWN WHILE I WAS IN PRISON.

THIS COVER IS VERY WORN AS YOU CAN IMAGINE.

THIS IS A KORAN THAT THE SPINE IS ALREADY SPLITTING.

>> OH, WOW.

>> BUT ALL THROUGHOUT THIS KORAN, YOU WOULD SEE MY HAND, I WOULD UNDERLINE THINGS, I WOULD FOLD PAGES, I WOULD HIGHLIGHT THINGS, I WOULD WRITE THINGS IN THE SPINE.

THIS IS -- THIS WAS A TRUE STUDY OF FAITH.

BUT MORE THAN THAT, I THINK IT WAS ME TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW CAN I GROW THROUGH WHAT I'M TO GO THROUGH.

>> AND YOU READ A LOT OF MANDELA I UNDERSTAND.

>> OH MY GOODNESS.

HE SAID TO BE ANGRY AND BITTER IS LIKE DRINKING POISON AND EXPECTING YOUR ENEMY TO DIE.

>> IT'S BRILLIANT.

>> I HAD TO DIGEST, BECAUSE I WAS ANGRY.

I WAS UPSET.

I DID NOT UNDERSTAND HOW COULD THE SYSTEM RUN OVER US WITH THE SPIKED WHEELS OF JUSTICE AND THEN RUN OVER US AGAIN AND LAY US OUT FLAT?

I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IT.

I WANTED TO HAVE SOMEONE -- EVEN WHEN WE WERE FOUND INNOCENT, WE WERE HOPING FOR AN APOLOGY.

WE WERE HOPING THAT A PERSON WHO GAME FUTURE PRESIDENT OF THESE UNITED STATES WOULD EQUALLY SAY YOU KNOW WHAT?

I TOOK OUT A FULL-PAGE AD IN 1989 CALLING FOR YOUR DEATH.

I'M SORRY.

>> INSTEAD -- >> I'M GOING TO TAKE OUT A FULL-PAGE AD AND CALL FOR AN APOLOGY FOR YOU ALL.

INSTEAD HE DOUBLED DOWN.

>> THIS IS DONALD TRUMP.

AND AGAIN, WE ALL REMEMBER THESE ADS IN THE NEWSPAPERS IN NEW YORK CALLING FOR A REINSTATEMENT OF THE DEATH PENALTY.

HE DOUBLED DOWN.

THEY ADMITTED THEIR GUILT.

>> YES.

>> AND NOW I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU THINK, WHETHER IT'S KARMA, FAITH OR WHATEVER.

THIS IS A TWICE IMPEACHED, 4 INDICTMENTS, 91 CHARGES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> THIS IS A VERY CRAFTY INDIVIDUAL.

I SAY THAT BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN A LOVE AFFAIR OF SORTS WITH DONALD TRUMP.

I REMEMBER ONE OF MY MOST FAVORITE ARTISTS, NAZ, I REMEMBER HE SAID I WANT TO BE RICH BIKE DONALD TRUMP AND MARLA MAPLE.

HE CAME INTO THE ROOM, THIS IS DONALD TRUMP, THE REAL ESTATE MOGUL.

HIS NAME WAS EVERYWHERE AND ON EVERYTHING.

BUT I THINK THAT FOR HIM TO CRAFT WHAT'S GOING ON WITH HIM BY SAYING HEY, I'M JUST LIKE YOU.

I'M INDICTED TOO.

>> THAT'S WHAT HE IS SAYING NOW.

>> THAT'S A SLAP IN THE FACE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENS WITH THE INJUSTICE THAT WE EXPERIENCE.

WHEN YOU HEAR HIM SAY THINGS LIKE HEY, LISTEN, I'VE GOT SOME GOLD SNEAKERS THAT YOU CAN BUY, AS IF WE CAN PUT THESE SNEAKERS ON AND CLICK OUR HEELS AND SOMEHOW WALK DOWN THE YELLOW BRICK ROAD.

THESE ARE ALL DISTRACTIONS THAT PULL US AWAY FROM WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FOCUSED ON.

THESE INTEREST SHINY APPLES.

WHEN I THINK ABOUT ALL OF THIS, ALL OF IT, WE HAVE TO SAY TO OURSELVES WHAT WE DESERVE AS A COUNTRY IS A UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND NOT A DIVIDED STATES OF AMERICA.

>> YUSEF SALAAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

>>> WE TURN NEXT TO NIGERIA TEN YEARS AFTER THE CHIBOK SCHOOL KIDNAPPING THAT SHOCKED THE WORLD, WHEN BOKO HARAM MILITANTS STORMED A SCHOOL IN THE NORTH OF THE COUNTRY, SNATCHING NEARLY 300 PUPILS AND SPARKING A GLOBAL CRY TO BRING BACK OUR GIRLS.

A DECADE ON, THE LEGACY OF THOSE ABDUCTIONS IS STILL REVERBERATING, AND SADLY, MANY OF THE CHILDREN NEVER MADE IT HOME.

STEPHANIE BUSARI MAKES THE JOURNEY BACK TO CHIBOK TO MEET SOME WHO DID MANAGE TO ESCAPE AND THE FAMILIES OF THOSE WHO ARE STILL MISSING.

>> Reporter: THE ROAD TO CHIBOK, NORTHEASTERN NIGERIA.

TEN YEARS ON FROM THE KIDNAPPING OF NEARLY 300 SCHOOL GIRLS, WE'VE COME TO MEET SOME OF THE GIRLS WHO WERE TAKEN THAT NIGHT IN APRIL 2014 AND SEE HOW THE THREAT OF ABDUCTION STILL SHAPES CHILDREN'S LIVES HERE.

>> THEY COME FROM THIS WAY, THIS WAY.

>> AND THERE WERE MANY CARS?

>> YES.

PLENTY.

>> Reporter: HAWA WAS JUST 16 WHEN SHE WAS SNATCHED FROM HER BOARDING SCHOOL LATE AT NIGHT BY BOKO HARAM MILITANTS.

>> THEY BURNED THE HALL.

>> Reporter: SO THEY BURNED THE HALL WHERE YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO WRITE YOUR EXAMS?

>> YEAH.

>> Reporter: THEY WERE REALLY AGAINST EDUCATION THAT MUCH.

THE ISLAMIST GROUP TOOK MORE THAN 270 GIRLS INTO THE VAST SAMBISA FOREST, THOUGH SOME MANAGED TO ESCAPE.

SHE WAS ALSO ABDUCTED THAT NIGHT, TOLD BY BOKO HARAM LEADERS THAT MARRIAGE WAS THE ONLY WAY TO AVOID REPEATED ABUSE BY FIGHTERS IN THE CAMP.

>> THEY SAY THEY WILL TAKE US AS SLAVE.

AND THEN ANY TIME HE WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU, HE SLEEP WITH YOU.

AND THEN WHEN HE TIRED OF YOU, HE WILL HAND YOU OVER TO SOMEONE.

SO I JUST THINK THAT I BETTER AGREE TO GET MARRIED TO THE ONE PERSON.

>> Reporter: SHE WAS THE FIRST OF THE CHIBOK GIRLS TO ESCAPE AFTER BEING HELD IN A FOREST, EMERGING WITH HER BOKO HARAM HUSBAND WHO ALSO FLED THE GROUP AND THEIR YOUNG BABY AFTER TWO YEARS.

NOW 8 YEARS OLD, AMINAH'S DAUGHTER HAS FACED STIGMA FOR BEING A CHILD OF A BOKO HARAM FIGHTER.

SCHOOL KIDNAPPINGS A SHADOW THAT HANG OVER THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IN NORTHERN NIGERIA, WITH AN ESTIMATED 1700 CHILDREN ABDUCTED FROM SCHOOL IN THE PAST DECADE, ACCORDING TO AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL.

JUST LAST MONTH, MORE THAN 100 STUDENTS, SOME AS YOUNG AS 8 WERE TAKEN BY ARMED MEN WHO STORMED THEIR SCHOOL.

IN RECENT YEARS, CRIMINAL GANGS HAVE CREATED A KIDNAPPING FOR RANSOM INDUSTRY, SPANNING ACROSS THE NORTHWEST OF THE COUNTRY, WHICH SUCCESSIVE GOVERNMENTS HAVE STRUGGLED TO GRAPPLE WITH.

>> THE FAILURE OF GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE CHIBOK GIRLS ISSUE LED TO AN INDUSTRY OF ABDUCTION.

IT'S SOCIETY THAT HAS SCANT REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE.

>> Reporter: MANY MOTHERS ARE NOW TOO SCARED TO SEND THEM TO SCHOOL.

>> GUESS WHAT CHIBOK GIRLS KIDNAPPING DID.

IT MADE THE MOTHERS FEEL GUILTY.

IN THEIR MIND, THAT WHAT IT DID BY ARGUING FOR EDUCATION FOR THEIR DAUGHTER WAS TO SAY PAY WITH YOUR LIFE, YOU KNOW, TO BE EDUCATED.

>> Reporter: FEWER THAN 50% OF NIGERIAN GIRLS ATTEND SCHOOL AT A BASIC EDUCATION LEVEL, ACCORDING TO A UNICEF REPORT.

IN A COUNTRY WITH 5% OF THE WORLD'S CHILDREN BY 2030, THE UNITED NATIONS HAS SAID, QUOTE, WHAT HAPPENS TO CHILDREN IN NIGERIA MATTERS SIGNIFICANTLY TO REGIONAL AND GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT.

BACK IN CHIBOK, FOR MANY OTHERS, THE PAIN CONTINUES A DECADE ON.

JANA'S DAUGHTER WAS AMONG THE CHIBOK GIRLS STOLEN FROM SCHOOL AND REMAINS MISSING ALONG WITH 81 OTHERS.

DO YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR HEARTS THAT SHE IS ALIVE?

>> I BELIEVE SHE IS ALIVE.

SHE IS MY DAUGHTER, AND I BELIEVE SHE IS ALIVE.

>> Reporter: SHE'S KEPT HER DAUGHTER'S CLOTHES READY FOR WHEN SHE RETURNS.

>> THIS IS HOW WE KEEP IT.

WE ALWAYS WASH THE CLOTHES AND THEN KEEP IT FOR TEN YEARS NOW.

>> Reporter: NEVER GIVEN UP HOPE, DESPITE THE AGONY SHE AND SO MANY PARENTS IN NIGERIA HAVE TO ENDURE.

>> IMAGINE KEEPING THEIR GIRLS' THINGS READY FOR THEIR HOPEFUL RETURN.

STEPHANIE BUSARI REPORTING.

NOW, WHEN PRACTICED CORRECTLY, LAW AND ORDER IS VITAL IN UPHOLDING AMERICAN AND ALL OTHER DEMOCRACIES, AS WE SAW ON JANUARY 6th WHEN A VIOLENT MOB INCITED BY THEN PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP SOUGHT TO PREVENT A PEACEFUL TRANSITION OF POWER.

SO LOOKING AHEAD TO THE 2024 ELECTIONS, SOME FEAR ANOTHER UPHEAVAL SHOULD TRUMP LOSE AGAIN.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS ONE OF THOSE SOUNDING THE ALARM, HOMELAND SECURITY EXPERT JULIETTE KAYYEM ARGUES THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T READY FOR THE VIOLENCE TRUMP MIGHT UNLEASH, AND SHE IS JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN NOW TO DISCUSS WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SHOULD DO TO PLAN FOR THE WORST.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE AN ARTICLE RECENTLY THAT THE TITLE WAS "THE GOVERNMENT ISN'T READY FOR THE VIOLENCE TRUMP MIGHT UNLEASH."

WHAT IS MOST CONCERNING YOU RIGHT NOW HEADING INTO THIS ELECTION?

>> SO WHAT'S CONCERNING ME IS BOTH THE NATURE AND THE CONSISTENCY OF THREATS OF VIOLENCE THAT ARE COMING OUT OF THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, IN PARTICULAR WITH DONALD TRUMP.

I SORT OF TAKE AS A GIVEN THAT HE IS TELLING US WHAT HIS INTENTIONS ARE, AS HE DID BEFORE JANUARY 6th.

THERE IS AN ELEVATED THREAT ENVIRONMENT, WHICH THE FBI HAS ALREADY WARNED US ABOUT.

HE THREATENS OR UTILIZES THE POTENTIAL FOR VIOLENCE, WHETHER IT'S ON SOCIAL MEDIA SITES OR IN HIS SPEECHES.

THE LANGUAGE IS THE LANGUAGE OF INCITEMENT.

SO THE SCENARIO THAT I WORRY ABOUT ISN'T JUST SORT OF OUR ELECTION, BUT IF TRUMP WERE TO LOSE, WE NEED TO BE READY THAT HE NEEDS TO CREATE A NARRATIVE ABOUT WHAT THAT LOSS MEANS.

IT WAS STOLEN.

THE ELECTION WAS RIGGED.

AND PRESIDENT BIDEN, NOT AS THE CANDIDATE, BUT AS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHO NEEDS TO GUARANTEE A PEACEFUL ELECTION NEEDS TO BE MORE TRANSPARENT ON WHAT THE PREPARATIONS ARE AND TAKE SOME OF THE ADVICE OF THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE REPORT TO GET READY FOR POTENTIALLY THE NEXT INSURRECTION.

>> SO WHAT WAS SOME OF THE ADVICE FROM THAT REPORT THAT BEARS REPEATING AND BEARS KEEPING IN MIND?

>> THERE IS TWO DIFFERENT PIECE TOPS OF THE REPORT.

700 PAGES ARE DOCUMENTATION OF WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th AND A TELLING OF HOW THAT WAS ESSENTIALLY A STATE-SPONSORED INSURRECTION.

THERE ARE ABOUT FOUR TO FIVE PAGES OF RECOMMENDATION, BUT THEY ARE WORTH FOLLOWING.

SOME ARE ABOUT SORT OF INCREASED SENTENCING, ENHANCEMENTS FOR THE KINDS OF CRIMES THAT WE SAW AROUND JANUARY 6th.

THOSE WOULD REQUIRE CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL.

BUT OTHERS SORT OF DIRECT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO BE MORE ORGANIZED, MORE CENTRALIZED, TO SHARE INFORMATION WITH STATE AND LOCALS, AND BE PREPARED IN PARTICULAR FOR THE TIME PERIOD BETWEEN NOVEMBER AND JANUARY.

IF DONALD TRUMP WINS, THEN THERE WILL LIKELY BE AN ORDERLY TRANSITION OF POWER SIMPLY BECAUSE WE HAVE NO REASON TO SUSPECT PRESIDENT BIDEN WOULDN'T DO THAT.

BUT IF HE LOSES, WE CERTAINLY KNOW FROM WHAT TRUMP HAS SAID, AND WE ALSO KNOW FROM WHAT THE FBI IS TELLING US THAT THERE ARE LARGE GROUPS AND ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE PREPARING TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT.

AND THOSE INTEREST KINDS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND PREPAREDNESS MEASURES THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN NEEDS TO ADDRESS NOW AND SPECIFICALLY NEEDS TO BE TRANSPARENT ABOUT.

HE NEEDS TO GUIDE THIS VERY DIVIDED POPULATION THROUGH THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS.

>> YOU MENTIONED THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TELLING US EXACTLY WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO, WHAT HE IS INTERESTED IN.

THERE IS ALWAYS THIS CONCERN WITH HIM ABOUT HOW MUCH OF THIS RHETORIC IS BLUSTER.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

I'VE LONG TAKEN TRUMP LITERALLY, BECAUSE HE DOES SIGNAL WHAT HIS INTENTIONS ARE, WHETHER IT WAS BEFORE JANUARY 6th AND THE WARNINGS THAT PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE FOLLOWING HIM SAYING THIS IS NO LONGER A HIT.

IT IS A PLACE.

IT IS A TIME, AND IT'S A MISSION, AT LEAST FOR JANUARY 6th.

NOW WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN TERMS OF THE ELECTION STRATEGY, THE CAMPAIGN STRATEGY AND WHAT HE IS DOING ON SOCIAL MEDIA, LET ALONE WHAT HE IS SAYING IN RALLIES THAT WE TEND TO IGNORE IN THE MAINSTREAM PRESS IS VERY MUCH THE SAME KIND OF LANGUAGE.

I WANT TO BE CLEAR.

MOST OF DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTERS ARE NOT GOING TO GO TO VIOLENCE.

BUT WHAT DONALD TRUMP CERTAINLY KNOWS IS THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW HIM WHO WILL BE GUIDED BY THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE.

AND WHAT HE CERTAINLY OUGHT TO KNOW AT THIS STAGE IS THAT THERE IS LOTS OF ACTIVITY ON SOCIAL MEDIA TAKING HIS WORDS, TAKING HIS LANGUAGE AND THEN ESSENTIALLY CONTINUING TO WEAPONIZE IT.

THESE ARE THINGS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS AWARE OF AND DOES NOTHING TO CURB AND IN FACT FURTHER ENHANCES.

IT'S -- THIS IS REALLY DISCONCERTING.

I GET IT.

I GET PEOPLE'S DESIRE TO THINK NO, THIS TIME IT WILL BE OKAY.

I SEE NO PURPOSE IN THAT AT THIS STAGE.

WE SHOULD BE GUARANTEED AS CITIZENS WHATEVER OUR IDEOLOGICAL BACKGROUND, A PEACEFUL ELECTION PERIOD AND TRANSITION TO THE NEXT TERM, WHETHER IT IS PRESIDENT BIDEN OR FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

AND LISTEN TO WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS TELLING US WILL HAPPEN IF HE LOSES.

>> JULIETTE, HOW DO WE HAVE CONVERSATIONS LEADING UP TO THE ELECTION AND AFTER WITH THIS GROUP OF AMERICANS WHO MIGHT BELIEF IN WHAT KELLY CONWAY FAMOUSLY LAID THE PHRASE "ALTERNATIVE FACTS," WHO AT THIS POINT TODAY THINK JOE BIDEN IS NOT THE ELECTED PRESIDENT.

>> IF THERE IS A SILVER LINING TO THIS, WE CERTAINLY KNOW DIFFERENT STRATEGIES.

AND I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHO THE WE.

I WANT TO SORT OF DIVIDE UP THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE.

SO WE SEE POLLING THAT SUGGESTS A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF AMERICANS THINK THAT BIDEN DIDN'T LEGITIMATELY WIN.

SOME OF THAT MAY JUST BE POSTURING FOR POLLS.

SO THAT POOL MAY NOT BE AS BIG AS 30 OR 40% OR WHATEVER THE POLLS ARE TELLING US.

WE KNOW THERE IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO DO BELIEVE THE INFORMATION AND THE DISINFORMATION.

AND WHAT GETS THEM TO SORT OF LOOK AT REALITY ARE THREE THINGS.

ONE, SOCIAL GROUP, FAMILY AND FRIENDS.

THERE IS ALMOST NOTHING THE GOVERNMENT CAN POUNCE ON YOUR HEAD.

IT IS PEOPLE BEING ALERTED OR UNDERSTANDING WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THEIR PEER GROUP.

YOU HAVE A MOTHER WHO GOES INTO THIS HOLE.

AND PEER GROUPS TEND TO FIND LIKE-MINDED SOULS.

THIS IS NOT EASY.

BUT THE SOLUTION IS NOT GOING TO COME FROM SOME TALKING POINTS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

IT'S GOING TO COME FROM COMMUNITIES ENGAGING PEOPLE IN ONE-ON-ONE CONVERSATIONS.

PEOPLE HAVE TRUSTED FAMILY MEMBERS, TRUSTED ADVISERS, TRUSTED PROFESSIONALS.

AND WE KNOW THAT PIECEWORKS.

THE SECOND IS IF WE'RE THE MEDIA IS TO ESSENTIALLY NOT REPEAT THE UNTRUTH.

EVEN TO SAY THAT'S OUTRAGEOUS.

SO PART OF IT IS THIS UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT'S CALLED THE TRUTH SANDWICH WHICH TWO PLUS TWO EQUALS FOUR.

DONALD TRUMP SAID TWO PLUS TWO EQUALS FIVE.

THAT IS NOT TRUE.

TWO PLUS TWO EQUALS FOUR THAT IS A WAY TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE PACKAGE TRUTH.

THEN THE THIRD PETE IS SOMETIMES IT'S NOT WORDS.

I HAVE LONG BELIEVED AND BELIEVE IT NOW THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT AND PROSECUTIONS HAVE A ROLE IN THIS.

ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE INSURGENCY GROUPS ARE ON THEIR KNEES, IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO RAISE MONEY AND RECRUIT IS BECAUSE OF THESE PROSECUTIONS.

SO PART OF IT IS ALSO LETTING PEOPLE KNOW THERE IS A PRICE TO PAY FOR UNLAWFUL CONDUCT, THAT THIS ISN'T JUST WORDS.

>> SO SOME OF THE PRESCRIPTIONS OF THE JANUARY 6th REPORT LAID OUT WAS WHAT WE DO PHYSICALLY TO PREPARE THE D.C. AREA.

IF PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS TO WIN THE ELECTION, AND WE KIND OF HAVE ANOTHER REBUILDING OF FORCES THAT WANT TO DO SOMETHING ON JANUARY 6th OR ANOTHER DAY, AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAYS HEY, YOU KNOW WHAT?

WE'RE GOING TO DECLARE THIS A NATIONAL SECURITY EVENT AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THAT KIND OF SECURITY AROUND IT, DOES IT MAKE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE GO SEE LOOK, THE FIX IS IN.

THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN EXPRESS OUR VOICE.

THE STATE IS EXERTING SO MUCH AUTHORITY.

THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THERE IS NO TRANSITION OF POWER TO DONALD TRUMP THAT WAS LEGITIMATELY ELECTED IN THEIR MINDS.

>> LOOK, THERE IS GOING TO BE PEOPLE WHO PERCEIVE THIS THROUGH A POLITICAL LENS NO MATTER WHAT.

AND WE HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT.

THE MORE PREPARATION AND PLANNING THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN CAN DO IN TERMS OF WHO IS THE LEAD FEDERAL AGENCY, WHAT KIND OF PHYSICAL PROTECTIONS DO YOU WANT SAY AT CONGRESS OR THE SUPREME COURT OR EVEN AT THE WHITE HOUSE, WHO IS IN CHARGE IN D.C.?

D.C. IS A COMPLICATED GOVERNANCE SYSTEM AS WE SAW ON JANUARY 6th BETWEEN THE NATIONAL GUARD AND CAPITOL POLICE AND SECRET SERVICE AND LOCAL POLICE.

LET'S GET THAT ORGANIZED NOW.

AND THE REASON WHY I URGE THAT IS THAT NO ONE IS GUESSING AT THE MOMENT SOMETHING HAPPENED AS WE SAW IN THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE REPORT.

IT WAS THAT INABILITY TO RESPOND IN MANY WAYS, WHO COULD DO WHAT, WHAT WERE THEIR AUTHORITIES THAT MADE IT DIFFICULT.

AND I THINK SECONDLY, YOU KNOW, THAT THIS ORGANIZATION WILL ACTUALLY ENSURE THAT PEACEFUL PROTESTS, EVEN AGAINST THE PRESIDENT BIDEN IS ALLOWABLE.

WHAT WE DON'T WANT IS A SITUATION WHEN, YOU KNOW, EVERYONE GOES TO THEIR SEPARATE SIDES AND THEN YOU HAVE A CONFLICT.

AND I THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN NEEDS TO BE TRANSPARENT ABOUT IT NOW.

I THINK IT'S THE ONLY WAY IT WOULD WORK IN ORDER TO MINIMIZE THE KIND OF POLITICS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

>> SHOULD PRESIDENT BIDEN NOW SAY LOOK, IF I LOSE THIS ELECTION, HERE YOU GO, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE WILL HAVE A TRANSITION OF POWER?

I DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS A FEAR OF MISSING OUT FOR DONALD TRUMP, WHETHER HE WOULD SAY THE SAME THING, BUT MAKING CLEAR TO THE ELECTORATE.

>> YES.

>> THAT THESE ARE HIS GROUND RULES.

>> IT'S A GREAT POINT.

HE ABSOLUTELY SHOULD.

IN FACT, I NOW THINK THAT THE QUESTION THAT WE OFTEN ASK DONALD TRUMP OR SOME OF HIS ELECTED SUPPORTERS, WILL YOU ACCEPT THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION IS SORT OF A SILLY QUESTION.

THEY CAN WIGGLE THEMSELVES OUT OF THAT.

THE QUESTION WE NEED TO START ASKING IS DO YOU CONDONE VIOLENCE IF YOUR CANDIDATE DOES NOT WIN?

WE NEED TO START SHAMING THIS VIOLENCE AND THE THREAT OF VIOLENCE THAT HAS BECOME PART OF OUR DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, OUR NORMS ARE COMPLETELY STRETCHED RIGHT NOW, AND WE'RE KIND OF NOT SEEING IT.

I THINK NOT ONLY SHOULD PRESIDENT BIDEN SAY HERE'S HOW IT'S GOING TO WORK PEACEFULLY IF I DON'T WIN, BUT WE NEED TO GET OTHERS TO ALSO EMBRACE THAT WORD PEACEFUL.

WE'LL STILL DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER, BUT THE FACT THAT WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, THE RISK OF A NOT PEACEFUL PERIOD LEADING UP TO THE ELECTION AND CERTAINLY AFTER SHOWS HOW FAR WE'VE STRETCHED SORT OF OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT DEMOCRACY IS AS WELL AS STRETCH THE THREAT ENVIRONMENT WHICH IS INCREASED BY EVERYBODY'S ACCOUNT.

>> WHEN YOU MENTION THE THREAT OF VIOLENCE OR THE POSSIBILITY OF VIOLENCE, THERE IS POLLING DATA.

THERE WAS ONE IN OCTOBER, THE PRRI POLL, AND IT SAID 23% OF AMERICANS BELIEVE THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE TO, QUOTE, RESORT TO VIOLENCE IN ORDER TO SAVE OUR COUNTRY.

THAT IS UP.

IT WAS 2021 WHEN THEY ASKED THAT QUESTION LAST TIME, AND IT WAS 15%.

THIS IS DEFINITELY ONE OF THOSE WRONG TRACK INDICATORS.

WHY IS IT THAT PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE SO REMOVED THAT VIOLENCE AT LAST RESORT IS ALREADY THERE IN THEIR MINDS?

>> I THINK PART OF IT IS BECAUSE WE NEED TO BE MORE TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES ARE.

THAT THING HAS FESTERED BECAUSE WE KIND OF ACCEPTED IT AS A NORM OF HOW DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGNS AND WHAT I'M -- AS SOMEONE WHO STUDIES TERRORISM AND INCITEMENT, WE NEED TO BEGIN THE COUNTERNARRATIVE NOW, THAT THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, THAT THE NORMS CANNOT BE STRETCHED THIS WAY, THAT WE ARE READY IF PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO TAKE UP ARMS AGAINST THE DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM.

IT'S NOT DEMOCRATS, IT'S THE DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM, AND BEGIN, AS I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR A LONG TIME, BEGIN TO THIS KIND OF POLICY OR BELIEF.

I DON'T MEAN TRUMPISM OR MAGAISM.

I MEAN VIOLENCE.

VIOLENCE IS WE HAVE TO BE COLLECTIVELY AGAINST AT THIS STAGE.

IT CAN'T BE WINKED AWAY OR HE JOKES OR HE DIDN'T REALLY MEAN IT, OR YOU'RE JUST PARSING WORDS FROM HIM.

I CAN SAY WITH CONFIDENCE HE MEANS IT.

AND MY PROOF IS JANUARY 6th.

I DON'T ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

IT'S FOUR YEARS LATER.

AND I THINK WE SHOULD FEEL CONFIDENT SAYING THAT.

IT'S NOT POLITICAL.

I'M READING THE DATA.

>> ARE WE IN A BETTER POSITION WHEN IT COMES TO HOMELAND SECURITY.

>> YEAH.

>> FROM DOMESTIC TERROR GROUPS, DOMESTIC TERRORISTS?

WHEN THE FBI OR OTHER AGENCIES LOOK OUT AT THIS LANDSCAPE, ARE THE PRECONDITIONS THE SAME, BETTER, OR WORSE THAN WHAT HAPPENED JANUARY 6th?

>> I SAY THAT THEY'RE DIFFERENT.

AND THAT DIFFERENCE DOESN'T NECESSARILY MAKE IT BETTER.

ONE IS THAT THE ORGANIZING GROUPS, THE ONES THAT WE KNOW THE NAMES OF, SAY PROUD BOYS, THOSE ARE NOW ESSENTIALLY NOT OVER, BUT THEY'RE ON THEIR KNEES.

AND THE REASON WHY IS THEY HAD CHARISMATIC LEADERS WHO ARE NOW IN JAIL FOR SERIOUS SEDITION CRIMES.

THEY CAN'T RAISE MONEY.

THEY CAN'T RECRUIT.

SO THAT'S GOOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU DON'T WANT ORGANIZED PARAMILITARY ORGANIZATIONS GOING AFTER DEMOCRACY.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEIR APPEAL IS COMPLETELY OVER.

LOOK, IDEOLOGIES DON'T END.

THEY ONLY GET ISOLATED OR DECREASED.

AND SO WHAT YOU ARE SEEING, AS YOU SAID SORT OF TO THE GROUND.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL, AS WE SEE BUYING INTO THIS, WHO ARE STILL BELIEVING THAT VIOLENCE IS AN EXTENSION OF OUR DEMOCRATIC DIFFERENCES.

AND THOSE ARE HARDER TO FIND.

BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ONLINE.

THEY'RE NOT ORGANIZING.

THEY'RE NOT MEETING.

AND I THINK THAT AS FBI CHRIS WRAY SAID RECENTLY IN TESTIMONY, THAT'S A FEAR THAT YOU KNOW IS OUT THERE, BUT THEY'RE REALLY HARD TO FIND IN EVERY INSTANCE.

BUT THEN THERE IS ANOTHER PART OF THIS POST, SORT OF JANUARY 6, 2021 IS THE CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS.

THE CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS HAVE GONE VERY, VERY FAR IN SHOWING THAT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR.

PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEY COULD GO TO JAIL, LOSE THEIR JOBS, BE ISOLATED FROM THEIR FAMILIES FOR EVEN SOMETHING THAT THEY THOUGHT WAS KIND OF A JOKE.

AND I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO KEEP PLAYING OUT.

THAT'S WHAT THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE TRIED TO DO.

THEIR MEMORIALIZATION OF JANUARY 6th WAS ALSO A MESSAGE TO THOSE WHO THINK THIS IS ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR.

THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES.

>> JULIETTE, YOU AND I HAVE BEEN SPEAKING FOR YEARS, AND ONE OF THE CONVERSATIONS WE WE HAD WAS AFTER YOU WROTE A BOOK "THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS."

AND THAT WAS REALLY ALMOST A WAY OF SAYING, LOOK, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE WHETHER YOU CALL IT A CRISIS, A DISASTER, A CATASTROPHE, WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED FOUR YEARS AGO.

WE KNOW THERE IS A MOMENT THAT WE CAN PLAN BETTER FOR, IF THERE IS A FAILURE.

WHAT IS IT THAT CONCERNS YOU?

WHAT ARE THE LESSONS THAT PEOPLE NEED TO BE THINKING ABOUT WHEN THEY LOOK FORWARD TO SAY HOW DO WE JUST GET A PEACE TRANSITION OF POWER?

>> THERE ARE TWO LESSONS FROM THAT BOOK.

THE FIRST IS JUST EMBRACE THE DEVIL.

PART OF WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO NOW IS WE DON'T HAVE TO PRETEND ANYMORE THIS IS ALL A JOKE.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT WE UNDERSTAND VIOLENCE AND THE THREAT OF VIOLENCE ARE PART OF OUR ELECTION PROCESS FOR 2024.

IF WE CAN THEN ADMIT THAT, THEN WHAT YOU WOULD YOU DO KNOWING THAT THREAT ENVIRONMENT IS HIGHER?

YOU WOULD PREPARE LOCAL AND STATES.

YOU WOULD MAKE SURE YOU HAVE LEAD FEDERAL AGENCIES, ALL OF THE THINGS THAT I TALK ABOUT IN TERMS OF DON'T BE AFRAID THAT THIS COULD HAPPEN.

GET READY FOR IT.

I THINK THE SECOND PIECE FOR ME, THE THING THAT WORRIES ME I THINK THE MOST IS WHAT WE CALL SITUATION AWARENESS.

THIS IS A BIG COUNTRY.

LOTS OF THINGS ARE GOING TO BE GOING ON THOSE DAYS.

AND DO WE HAVE TRANSPARENCY ON WHAT THE THREAT IS DOING, WHAT THEY MIGHT TRY TO DO, AND THEN ARE WE ABLE TO STOP THEM?

THAT WORRIES ME BECAUSE THERE IS GOING A LOT OF ACTIVITY.

WE CAN PREPARE FOR THAT AS WELL.

AND IN PARTICULAR IN D.C., WHERE THERE SHOULD BE NO REASON THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE SURPRISED IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

WE KNOW PEOPLE WILL PLAN ON RALLYING, AND WE SHOULD ALLOW THEM TO EXPRESS THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, BUT ALSO BE PREPARED THAT SHOULD THEY THREATEN VIOLENCE OR PERFORM VIOLENCE, THAT THEY WILL BE PROSECUTED.

>> JULIETTE KAYYEM, HOMELAND SECURITY EXPERT AND PROFESSOR AFTER THE HARVARD KENNEDY STOOL SCHOOL.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, AN ARTISTIC FEAT WORTHY OF A MEDAL, AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE IDEA.

FRENCHMAN BAPTIST IS WRITING OUT THE NAME OF EVERY SINGLE OLYMPIC WINNER SINCE THE MODERN GAMES BEGAN IN 1896.

THAT IS 30,249 NAMES.

HE SAYS HE IS INSPIRED BY THE POLISH ARTIST ROMAN'S WORK ON THE PASSAGE OF TIME.

AND HE IS CERTAINLY GIVING UP LOT OF HIS OWN TIME AS HE RACES TO FINISH THE PIECE BEFORE THE OLYMPICS START IN PARIS THIS JULY.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT,PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR OF WATCHING