>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES ARE TO BE FILED IN THE KILLING OF YET ANOTHER BLACK MAN AT THE HANDS OF POLICE IN MINNESOTA, WHILE THE MURDER TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN DRAWS TO A CLOSE.

I'LL GET INTO THE PROBLEMS WITH POLICING IN THAT STATE AND IN THIS ONE WITH MICHAEL CURRY, CHAIR OF THE NAACP ADVOCACY AND POLICY COMMITTEE; FORMER POLICE OFFICER AND PROSECUTOR NATASHIA TIDWELL; AND "BLACKSTONIAN" EDITOR JAMARHL CRAWFORD.

THEN, LATER, THE RACISM AND MISOGYNY IN S.T.E.M.

ON DISPLAY IN THE DOCUMENTARY "PICTURE A SCIENTIST."

DIRECTOR SHARON SHATTUCK AND A BIOLOGY PROFESSOR FEATURED IN THE FILM, M.I.T.

'S NANCY HOPKINS, JOIN ME.

AN EX-MINNESOTA POLICE OFFICER IS NOW FACING SECOND-DEGREE MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES FOR SHOOTING AND KILLING 20-YEAR-OLD DAUNTE WRIGHT DURING A TRAFFIC STOP IN BROOKLYN CENTER, JUST 20 MINUTES OUTSIDE OF MINNEAPOLIS, WHERE GEORGE FLOYD WAS KILLED LESS THAN A YEAR AGO.

KIM POTTER, THE BROOKLYN CENTER COP, RESIGNED FROM THE DEPARTMENT YESTERDAY, ALONG WITH THE CITY'S CHIEF OF POLICE.

POTTER AND HER PARTNER HAD BEEN ATTEMPTING TO ARREST WRIGHT OVER AN OUTSTANDING WARRANT THAT CAME UP AFTER THEY STOPPED HIM FOR A MINOR TRAFFIC VIOLATION, WHEN HE TURNED AND GOT BACK IN HIS CAR.

SHE THEN WARNED WRIGHT THAT SHE WOULD TASE HIM, BUT INSTEAD FIRED A BULLET INTO HIS CHEST, KILLING HIM.

POTTER, A 26-YEAR VETERAN OF THE FORCE, HAS SAID THE SHOOTING WAS AN ACCIDENT AND THAT SHE INTENDED TO USE HER TASER INSTEAD.

PROTESTORS HAVE TAKEN TO THE STREETS IN THE DAYS SINCE, IN MINNESOTA AND BEYOND, EXPRESSING THEIR OUTRAGE OVER YET ANOTHER BLACK MAN KILLED BY POLICE, ALL WHILE ANOTHER EX-MINNESOTA OFFICER IS STILL ON TRIAL.

IN THE 11th HOUR, DEREK CHAUVIN HAS BEEN BRINGING ON WITNESSES WILLING TO DEFEND HIS ACTIONS, INCLUDING A FORMER MEDICAL EXAMINER WITH A HISTORY OF BLAMING BLACK PEOPLE KILLED BY POLICE FOR THEIR OWN DEATHS.

FORMER MARYLAND CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER DAVID FOWLER, WHO'S CURRENTLY BEING SUED FOR HIS RULING IN A SIMILAR POLICE KILLING IN 2018, TESTIFIED TODAY THAT FLOYD'S DEATH WAS CAUSED BY DRUG USE AND PRIOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, DESPITE A VERY CLEAR VERDICT CONFIRMED LAST WEEK BY THE M.E.

WHO ACTUALLY WORKED ON THE CASE.

>> THE LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL RESTRAINT AND THE NECK COMPRESSION WAS JUST MORE THAN MR. FLOYD COULD TAKE.

I WOULD STILL CLASSIFY IT AS A HOMICIDE TODAY.

>> Braude: JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THE RELATIONSHIP WITH POLICE AND THOSE THEY'RE CHARGED WITH PROTECTING ARE: MICHAEL CURRY, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE BOSTON NAACP, NOW CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL NAACP ADVOCACY AND POLICY COMMITTEE; NATASHIA TIDWELL, A FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND POLICE OFFICER WHO SERVED AS A SERGEANT-DETECTIVE IN THE CAMBRIDGE POLICE DEPARTMENT'S INTERNAL AFFAIRS DIVISION-- SHE LATER REVIEWED BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT INTERNAL AFFAIRS INVESTIGATIONS AS A MEMBER OF THE CITY'S COMMUNITY OMBUDSMAN OVERSIGHT PANEL; AND JAMARHL CRAWFORD, COMMUNITY ACTIVIST, THE EDITOR OF "BLACKSTONIAN," AND A MEMBER OF THE BOSTON POLICE REFORM TASK FORCE.

WELCOME TO ALL THREE OF YOU.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR GIVING ME YOUR TIME.

IF I MAY, I'D LIKE TO ASK ALL THREE OF YOU THE SAME QUESTION TO START THIS OFF.

STARTING WITH YOU, NATASHA, DOES A GUILTY VERDICT IN THE CHAUVIN MURDER TRIAL CHANGE ANYTHING, OR DOES IT SIMPLY PROVIDE A MEASURE OF JUSTICE FOR THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD?

>> WOW, WELL, BEING THE ETERNAL PESSIMIST THAT I AM, I DON'T WANT TO THINK WE'RE HEADING TOWARDS A GUILTY VERDICT, BUT IT WOULD BE JUST, BUT I'M NOT SURE IT CHANGES ANYTHING HERE.

IT SADDENS ME TO SAY THAT, BUT THIS CASE -- IF THEY CAN'T CONVICT HERE, THEN THEY'LL NEVER CONVICT, RIGHT?

SO I VIEW A POTENTIAL CONVICTION HERE TO NOT TO MEAN THAT THINGS ARE CHANGING, BECAUSE I THINK WE VIEW, WHILE THE TRIAL IS GOING ON DOWN THE STREET, WE'VE GOT THESE OTHER THINGS.

WE'VE GOT THE SITUATION IN VIRGINIA WITH THE MILITARY OFFICER, SO I'M NOT SURE A GUILTY VERDICT HERE WOULD CHANGE THINGS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT IF WE CAN'T DO IT HERE, I THINK IT IS SORT OF CEMENTS WE MAY NEVER BE ABLE TO GET A GUILTY VERDICT.

>> Braude: JAMARHL, WOULD IT CHANGE ANYTHING, A GUILTY VERDICT?

>> WE CERTAINLY ALL WANT A GUILTY VERDICT, AND THAT WOULD CERTAINLY BE JUST, IT COULD BE A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, A DROP IN THE BUCKET.

BUT, NO, IT IS CERTAINLY NOT JUSTICE IN AND OF ITSELF.

MALCOLM "X" FAMOUSLY SAID IF YOU STAB ME AND PUT THE KNIFE NINE INCHES IN MY BACK, AND YOU PULL IT OUT ONE INCH, SOME MAY CALL THAT PROGRESS.

SO WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS THING, A GUILTY VERDICT HERE WOULD BE THE RIGHT THING FOR THIS, BUT NO IT DOES NOT SPEAK TO THE HUNDRED OR THOUSAND OTHER TIMES WHERE WE'VE EXPERIENCED INJUSTICE OR NO JUSTICE AT ALL.

>> Braude: MICHAEL, ARE YOU A DISSENTER OR ARE YOU IN AGREEMENT WITH YOUR TWO COLLEAGUES?

>> IN AGREEMENT, MAYBE A LITTLE BIT OF A DISAGREEMENT.

THE FAMILY WANTS THIS OUTCOME.

DOES IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

THE FAMILY WILL NEVER GET GEORGE FLOYD BACK.

THEY HAVE SAID THAT.

BUT THEY WANT A JUST OUTCOME.

I THINK THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

WE HAVE A SYSTEM THAT IS NOT TRUSTWORTHY, AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE DON'T TRUST THE OUTCOME.

IN ORDER TO START GAINING THAT TRUST, WE NEED TO HAVE A VICTORY.

WE NEED TO KNOW THAT THE OFFICER IN THIS CASE, DEREK CHAUVIN, IS BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

IT WILL BE MANY YEARS AND MANY OTHER VERDICTS BEFORE WE GET TO A PLACE, BUT THIS IS THAT DROP IN THE BUCKET WE NEED TO KNOW THAT THE SYSTEM IS TRYING TO REGAIN OUR CONFIDENCE OR GAIN OUR CONFIDENCE BECAUSE WE HAVE NEVER HAD CONFIDENCE IN THE SYSTEM.

>> Braude: JAMAL, MICHAEL JUST USED THE TERM "VICTORY."

LET'S ASSUME THERE'S ONE VICTORY IN THE CHAUVIN CASE.

MY ANALYSIS, IF I STEP BACK IS, IT'S ONE STEP FORWARD AND TEN STEPS BACK.

IN JUST THE PAST COUPLE OF DAYS, WHILE THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON RIGHT BACK HERE AT HOME, WE FIND OUT IN "THE BOSTON GLOBE" THAT A COP, WHO WAS A LIKELY CHILD MOLESTER, WAS ALLOWED TO CONTINUE MOLESTING OR WHATEVER ELSE HE DID, FOR TWO DECADES, COVERED UP BY SOMEBODY IN HIGH PLACES IN THE POLICE FORCE, GOES DOWN TO NEW BEDFORD, AND 7% OF THE POPULATION IS BLACK, AND 46% OF THE STOPS AND FRISKS BY POLICE ARE BLACK.

SO ARE WE MAKING PROGRESS OVER ALL, OR ARE WE JUST TALKING A REALLY GOOD GAME?

>> NO.

AND, JIM, THIS IS A PERSON SUCH AS ME, WHO HAS BEEN ADVOCATING ABOUT THESE THINGS FOR YEARS.

IT IS LIKE YOUR SCREAMING IN THE DESERT AND YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE TALKING ABOUT U.F.O.s AND SASQUATCH.

NOBODY BELIEVES THIS THESE THINGS UNTIL THEY HIT THE NEWSPAPER AND IT IS VERIFIED BY MULTIPLE SOURCES.

UP UNTIL THAT POINT, FOR INSTANCE, MR. CURRY, WHEN HE WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE NAACP, I CAN GUARANTEE YOU HUNDREDS OF PHONE CALLS, MS. TIDWELL, WHO WAS ON THE CO-OP, EVERY MANNER OF CASES THAT COME BEFORE FOLKS, BUT IT IS JUST A SMALL SEGMENT THAT GET ANY ATTENTION.

AND WE REALLY DON'T GET A A SEMBLANCE OF JUSTICE.

WE SKATE ON A LOT OF STUFF HERE BECAUSE WE'RE SO PERFECT, WE'RE SO SMART, WE'RE SO CUTE.

AND WE ESCAPE ON STUFF THAT OTHER PLACES INVESTIGATE A BAD RAP ON, L.A., ALABAMA, MISSISSIPPI-- AND WE'RE NOT ONLY-- WE ARE THE EPICENTER.

THIS IS GROUND ZERO.

THIS IS THE FIRST POLICE FORCE IN THE NATION.

>> Braude: MICHAEL, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE THING THAT I'M MOST LOOKING FORWARD TO IS THE TRUTH.

WE'VE NOT HAD A TRUTH ABOUT POLICING IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE'VE NOT HAD A TRUTH ABOUT POLICING IN BOSTON.

IT IS INTERESTING THAT WE OFTEN LIFT UP, AND JAMAL, QUIET FRANKLY, HAS BEEN THE LEADER ON LIFTING UP THOSE CASES BEFORE MOST PEOPLE KNEW ABOUT THIS.

SO I THINK WE HAVE A CHALLENGE THAT COMES BEFORE YOU REALLY CHANGE POLICIES.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE A RECKONING AROUND WHAT HAPPENED.

HOW DID WE GET HERE?

I DON'T THINK WE, AS A CITY, HAVE BEEN READY TO HAVE THAT KIND OF A CONVERSATION.

I HOPE WITH THE WORK OF THE BOSTON NAACP AND THE WORK OF MANY OTHER ACTIVISTS, JAMAL, MS. TID MS. TIDWELL, WHERE WE CAN GET TO THE TRUTH AND THEN START CHANGING POLICIES TO FOLLOW.

>> Braude: NATASHA, I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU SOMETHING ACTING MAYOR JANEY SAID YESTERDAY, WHEN SHE WAS SPEAKING OF POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE CITY.

HERE SHE IS.

>> Mayor: I UNDERSTAND THAT THE FABRIC OF TRUST BETWEEN THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT AND POLICE RESIDENTS HAS WORN THIN IN PARTS OF OUR CITY, ESPECIALLY IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

WE MUST PRIORITIZE TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

THESE ARE FOUNDATIONAL VALUES WHEN IT COMES TO FOSTERING PUBLIC TRUST.

THAT IS WHY MY ADMINISTRATION IS DOUBLING DOWN ON OUR WORK TO STAND UP THE BOSTON POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY.

>> Braude: AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT OFFICE IS GOING TO LOOK AT, NATASHA, SOMETHING YOU KNOW A LOT ABOUT, INTERNAL AFFAIRS, AND WHAT, FOR EXAMPLE, UNTIL JANEY ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY, THERE WAS NO RELEASE OF INFORMATION ABOUT AN APPARENT COVER-UP WITH THIS SITUATION WITH THIS PATRICK ROSE, AN ABUSER DECADES AGO, AN ALLEGEDLY AN ABUSER MORE RECENTLY, STILL A REFUSAL TO DISCLOSE WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR COMMISSION, DENNIS WHITE -- IS WHAT JANEY WAS DESCRIBING AS ACCOUNTABILITY YESTERDAY, IS THAT A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?

>> ABSOLUTELY IT IS.

I THINK ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY GO HAND AND HAND IF YOU WANT TO GET THE TRUST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING POLICED.

YOU HAVE TO SORT OF SHOW YOUR CARDS AND BEING WILLING TO TRUST THEM WITH INFORMATION, IF YOU WANT THEM TO TRUST YOU IN RETURN.

THE REFLEX HAS BEEN TO SHIELD INTERNAL AFFAIRS RECORDS, TO SHIELD, YOU KNOW, UNDER SORT OF NUANCED OR MANIPULATING PRETZEL-TYPE LOGIC AS TO HOW IT FALLS WITHIN THE PUBLIC RECORDS LAW OR DOESN'T, AND I THINK ACTING MAYOR JANEY TOOK A HUGE STEP FORWARD BY SAYING THAT THE REFLEX SHOULD BE TO REVIEW THIS INFORMATION AND SAYING, WHAT DO WE NEED TO RED ACTTHE SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS, BUT THE REFLEX CAN'T BE TO THROW OUT THE SHIELD AUTOMATICALLY.

>> Braude: NATASHA, EXPLAIN TO ME WHY THE DEFAULT SHOULDN'T ALWAYS BE TO MAKE SUCH INVESTIGATIONS, INTERNAL AFFAIRS INVESTIGATIONS, PUBLIC, AND ONLY IF THERE IS A GOOD REASON NOT TO THAT IS AFFIRMED BY SOME INDEPENDENT AUTHORITY?

WHY SHOULDN'T THE DEFAULT BE TRANSPARENCY?

>> WELL, THE DEFAULT IS UNDER THE LAW, RIGHT?

SO THE PUBLIC RECORDS LAW DOESN'T EXEMPT THESE FROM RELEASE.

>> Braude: GOOD POINT.

>> IT HAS ALL OF THE REASONS AND THINGS THAT NEED TO BE REDACTED, BUT YOU GIVE IT UP UNLESS THERE IS REASON NOT TO.

THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS HISTORICALLY HAVE SORT OF OPERATED UNDER THE NOTION THAT THE PUBLIC CAN'T BE TRUSTED WITH THIS INFORMATION, OR THAT THE OFFICERS HAVE THESE PRIVACY RIGHTS THAT DON'T EXTEND, YOU KNOW -- THAT AREN'T JUSTIFIABLE UNDER THE PUBLIC RECORDS LAW.

BUT IF YOU WANT THE COMMUNITY TO TRUST YOU, THEN YOU HAVE TO SORT OF TRUST THE COMMUNITY TO BE ABLE TO HANDLE THIS INFORMATION.

AND THAT JUST HASN'T BEEN THE OPERATING SORT OF PHILOSOPHY FOR POLICE DEPARTMENTS FOR QUITE SOME TIME, I THINK EVER.

>> Braude: JAMAL, YOU WERE ON THE CITY TASK FORCE THAT CREATED THIS OFFICE THAT JANEY ANNOUNCED THE DIRECTOR OF YESTERDAY.

ARE YOU SATISFIED?

>> I PROBABLY WILL NEVER BE SATISFIED.

BUT -- >> Braude: ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THIS?

>> WELL, I MEAN, THIS IS DEFINITELY A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, FOR SURE.

I WOULD SAY HOW I AND OTHERS CAME TO THE CONCLUSION OF THIS WAS INFORMED A LOT BY THE PREVIOUS WORK OF THE CO-OP, BOTH THE ITERATION THAT MS. TIDWELL SERVED ON AND THE VERY FIRST ITERATION, WHICH EVERY REPORT OF THE CO-OP BASICALLY ECHOED THE SAME SENTIMENTS.

SO WHEN WE CAME UP WITH, LIKE, WHAT KIND OF ENTITY SHOULD WE CREATE, COULD WE CREATE, THAT WOULD ANSWER A LOT OF THE QUESTIONS THAT THE COMMUNITY HAD BEEN POSING, ALL OF THE REPORTS THAT HAD ALREADY INDICATED, ALL OF THE OTHER PANELS THAT DID IT, THIS IS WHAT WE CAME UP WITH.

BUT, NO, IT IS NOT OVER.

THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING.

>> Braude: MICHAEL, TODAY THIS KRISTIN CLARK, IF CONFIRMED WILL BE IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, SHE HAD THE AUDACITY SAYING WE MUST INVEST LESS IN POLICE AND MORE IN SOCIAL WORKERS, AND A LOT OF REPUBLICANS ON THAT COMMITTEE WEREN'T HAPPY WITH THAT.

APPARENTLY SHE IS CHARGED, IF CONFIRMED BY THE BOSS, JOE BIDEN, TO LOOK INTO A LOT OF THE ISSUES WE'VE TALKED ABOUT.

I SEE THAT AS A POSITIVE STEP, BUT IN 30 SECONDS EACH, IF I CAN, STARTING WITH YOU, MICHAEL, WHAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT UNDONE THING ON THIS POLICE FRONT THAT WOULD CHANGE THE DYNAMIC IN THIS COUNTRY.

STARTING WITH YOU, MICHAEL, QUICKLY, IF YOU CAN.

>> WE MADE PROGRESS HERE IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE, NOT ENOUGH.

THERE IS THE GEORGE FLOYD JUSTICE IN POLICING BILL -- SOME VERSION OF THAT NEEDS TO BE PASSED, EVEN IF IT IS THROUGH RECONCILIATION.

IT NEEDS TO GET DONE UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

AND I'M ALWAYS A FAN OF RACHEL ROLLINS, THE D.A., HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

BECAUSE GOING AGAINST POLICE UNIONS IS GOING TO CAUSE A BACKLASH, AND WE NEED THAT KIND OF LEADERSHIP COMING OUT OF WASHINGTON, COMING OUT OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE, AND COMING OUT OF CITY HALL.

>> Braude: JAMAL, TAKE 30SECONDS, WHAT SINGLE REFORM COULD CHANGE THE DYNAMIC?

>> I CAN'T DO A SINGLE, BUT I'M GOING TO SAY WE DEFINITELY NEED TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DESTABILIZE THE POWER OF THE UNIONS.

NEVER BEFORE HAVE SO FEW WIELDED THE POWER THAT HAS THE INFLUENCE OVER SO MANY.

AND THEN ALSO, TOO, WE NEED TO GET INTO THE ECONOMICS OF IT, WHERE PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, AND THINGS, LIKE NOW WITH THE CASE OF PATRICK ROSE.

DOES THIS GUY GET TO KEEP HIS PENSION?

I'M NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THAT.

WE NEED TO EXAMINE PENSIONS FOR PEOPLE WITH BAD BEHAVIOR IN THE PAST.

>> Braude: I'M SO WITH YOU ON THAT.

AND FINALLY, NATASHIA TIDWELL, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

>> I DON'T WANT TO ECHO OR REPEAT WHAT MY COLLEAGUES JUST SAID, SO I WILL ADD THE CIVIL SERVICE SYSTEM HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, WHICH HAS A STRANGLE-HOLD NOT ONLY ON RECRUITMENT AND WHO GETS HIRED, BUT THE ABILITY OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS TO DISCIPLINE AND FIRE, WHEN POLICE DEPARTMENTS DO WANT TO HOLD OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE, AND THE CIVIL SERVICE DEPARTMENT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR THOSE POSITIONS TO HOLD.

>> AND, JIM, THAT'S IN PREFERENCE -- THE PREFERENCE TIGHT-LINES WHITE MALES INTO POSITIONS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> Braude: MICHAEL CURRY, JAMARHL CRAWFORD, NATASHIA TIDWELL, I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> THANKS, JIM.

>> Braude: NEXT UP, WOMEN MAKE UP JUST AROUND A QUARTER OF ALL WORKERS IN S.T.E.M.

-- SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING, AND MATH.

FOR WOMEN OF COLOR, NOT SURPRISINGLY, THE NUMBERS ARE EVEN MORE DEPRESSING.

AND FOR THOSE WHO DO BREAK IN, THERE'S NO SHORTAGE OF REMINDERS THEY'RE NOT VERY WELCOME IN THE BOYS' CLUB OF AMERICAN SCIENCE.

>> I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS IN MY OFFICE ONCE, SITTING AT MY DESK, AT MY COMPUTER, LIKE, I GOT, YOU KNOW, PAPER SPREAD OUT.

SOMEONE COMES INTO MY OFFICE, AND FOR SOME REASON ASSUMES I'M THE JANITOR.

I MEAN, I'VE BEEN IN MEETINGS WHERE YOU'VE MADE A SUGGESTION OR SAID, WELL, WHAT ABOUT THIS?

IT WAS LIKE YOU NEVER SPOKE AT ALL.

BUT IF A WHITE GUY SAYS IT, YOU'RE LIKE, AND NOW I'LL MAGICALLY BE HEARD.

EVERYBODY WILL BE, LIKE, OH, WATCH THIS.

>> Braude: FROM MICROAGGRESSIONS TO OUTRIGHT ABUSE, THE NEW DOCUMENTARY DIVES DEEP INTO THE RACISM AND MISOGYNY IN THE WORLD OF SCIENCE, AND THE EFFORTS TO HOLD THE OFFENDERS ACCOUNTABLE.

IT'S CALLED "PICTURE A SCIENTIST."

I'M JOINED NOW BY ONE OF ITS DIRECTORS, SHARON SHATTUCK, AND A SCIENTIST FEATURED IN THE FILM, NANCY HOPKINS, A MOLECULAR BIOLOGIST AND PROFESSOR EMERITA AT M.I.T.

>> Braude: IT'S GREAT TO MEET YOU BOTH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: SHARON, THIS IS BOTH ONE OF THE MOST DEPRESSING AND INSPIRATIONAL FILMS ALL IN ONE.

I GAVE JUST A COUPLE OF NUMBERS.

HOW BAD IS IT, ACTUALLY, FOR WOMEN IN S.T.E.M.?

>> I MEAN -- WELL, I THINK NANCY MIGHT BE ABLE TO SPEAK -- SHE KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE NUMBERS THAN I DO.

BUT, YEAH, LIKE, WE MADE THIS FILM BECAUSE IT IS JUST AN ISSUE THAT IS OBVIOUS.

AS FILMMAKERS, WE ALWAYS TRY TO FEATURE DIVERSITY OF PEOPLE IN OUR FILMS, AND IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN HARDER TO FIND WOMEN IN SCIENCE THAN MEN.

>> Braude: CAN YOU DESCRIBE, SHARON, THE ICEBERG IMAGERY IN YOUR FILM, PLEASE?

>> SO THAT IS SOMETHING -- SO WE HAVE THIS ANALOGY OF AN ICEBERG THAT WAS FEATURED IN THIS NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES REPORT ON GENDER HARASSMENT.

THE IDEA IS 10%, THE VISIBLE SECTION OF THE ICEBERG, THAT'S, LIKE, THE REALLY OVERT KIND OF AGGRESSIONS, LIKE HARASSMENT, ASSAULT, HARVEY WEINSTEIN-TYPE THINGS.

THEN THERE IS ANOTHER 90% UNDER THE SURFACE OF JUST MICROAGGRESSIONS, FEELING LIKE YOU'RE LEFT OFF AN E-MAIL, AND YOU WEREN'T INVITED TO COLLABORATE WITH PEOPLE, EVEN THOUGH YOUR THE CLEAR EXPERT ON THE SUBJECT.

AND THOSE THINGS CAN HAVE JUST AS DAMAGING AN EFFECT ON A WOMAN'S DECISION TO STAY IN SCIENCE.

>> Braude: NANCY, YOU GO FROM THE WORD "JUST" WANTING TO BE A SCIENTIST AND DO YOUR WORK TO A SELF-DESCRIBED RADICAL ACTIVIST.

AND THE TIPPING POINT IS WHEN YOU SURREPTITIOUSLY LATE AT NIGHT MEASURED THE LAB SPACE OF SOME OF YOUR MALE COUNTERPARTS AT M.I.T.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THAT WAS ALL ABOUT, PLEASE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING.

IT SOUNDS A LITTLE NEGATIVE.

THIS MOVIE IS ABOUT WHY THERE ARE STILL SO FEW WOMEN IN SCIENCE.

BUT FOR THOSE OF US WHO DID GO INTO IT AND DID STAY, I WANT TO SAY IT IS THE GREATEST PRIVILEGE YOU CAN EVER HAVE, TO BE A SCIENTIST.

SO I DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE THAT POINT CLEAR.

>> Braude: I LOVE THAT YOU SAID IT.

BUT... >> BUT I WAS A PERSON WHO THOUGHT THERE WAS NO PROBLEM FOR WOMEN IN SCIENCE, WHEN I STARTED, WHICH WAS NEARLY 50 YEARS AGO.

I THOUGHT IF YOU COULD GET A JOB, YOU WERE MADE, THAT WAS IT, PROBLEM SOLVED.

BUT OVER TIME, I CAME TO SEE THAT I HAD BEEN WRONG, AND THAT THERE WERE THESE PECULIAR THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO WOMEN THAT WERE NOT HAPPENING TO MEN THAT MADE THE JOB MUCH HARDER.

AND ONE CASE WOMEN HAD SMALL LABS IN MY FIELD, AND THAT WAS JUST THE WAY IT WAS.

BUT AT SOME POINT I NEEDED MORE SPACE.

AND I SAID, I NEEDED MORE SPACE, AND I WAS TOLD YOU HAVE THE SAME SPACE AS EVERYBODY ELSE.

AND I SAID, NO, I DON'T.

AND FINALLY I TOOK A TAPE MEASURE AND MEASURED ALL OF THE LABS AND MEN AND WOMEN AND TALLIED THEM UP IN ORDER TO MAKE MY POINT.

IT WAS KIND OF RIDICULOUS.

I WAS EMBARRASSED AND CREEPING AROUND AT NIGHT, BUT THIS WAS QUITE A LONG TIME AGO, AND SO THINGS HAVE CHANGED SINCE THEN, AND VERY MUCH SO.

>> Braude: IN PART BECAUSE OF THE M.I.T.

REPORT THAT YOU AND SO MANY OF YOUR WOMEN COLLEAGUES ENDED UP SIGNING.

DO YOU RESENT, NANCY, ALL OF THE TIME YOU HAD TO SPEND FIGHTING FOR EQUITY, AND ALL OF THE TIME IT TOOK AWAY FROM WHAT YOUR TRUE LOVE IS, AS YOU SAID, SCIENCE?

>> IF I HAD A CHOICE, OF COURSE I WOULD HAVE PREPARED TO JUST BE A SCIENTIST.

BUT I THINK WOMEN IN MY GENERATION WERE SO LUCKY TO GET A JOB, AND WE WERE PIONEERS THAT CAME IN, AND NOBODY REALIZED THERE WERE ALL THESE ISSUES THAT WERE WAITING BEHIND THE DOOR FOR THE WOMEN WHO CAME THROUGH THAT DOOR.

SO ONCE I REALIZED WHAT WAS GOING ON, WORKING WITH MY OTHER FEMALE COLLEAGUES, AND WITH M.I.T.

TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM WAS FASCINATING AND GRATIFYING, WHICH WAS MY SECOND CHOICE.

SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MY SECOND CHOICE, I GUESS, AND THE FIRST CHOICE WOULD BE JUST TO BE A SCIENTIST.

>> Braude: SHARON, I WAS WONDERING WHEN I WAS WATCHING THE FILM LAST NIGHT, WHAT YOU MEANT WITH A PARTICULAR SEGMENT.

ONE OF THE THREE WOMEN YOU FOLLOWED, JANE WILLEN IT WILLENBRING, WHO WAS VERBALLY AND PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED BY A FAMOUS B.U.

PROFESSOR WHEN SHE WAS ON A MISSION IN ANTARCTICA FINALLY DECIDED TO BRING A TITLE 9 COMPLAINT AGAINST HIM, AND ULTIMATELY HE WAS FIRED AS A RESULT OF IT, AND YOU HAVE A REUNITING OF A SCENE, WHERE SHE MEETS WITH A MAN WHO WAS ON THAT FIELD TRIP AND WHO HAD SAID NOTHING.

AND WHEN I WATCHED THAT SCENE, WHILE SHE WAS KIND TO HIM, I KEPT SAYING TO MYSELF, COULD ANY HUMAN BEING LESS UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN TRYING TO DO THEIR JOBS THAN THIS ADULT?

WAS THAT WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO SHOW?

OR WERE YOU TRYING TO SHOW A MORE -- [LAUGHTER] >> Braude: I'M SERIOUS.

>> HONESTLY, LIKE, I REALLY LIKE THAT SCENE.

THAT IS ADAM LEWIS, AND HE IS ALSO A GEOLOGIST, AND HE IS A REALLY GOOD FRIEND OF JANE'S.

THEY WERE BOTH GRADUATE STUDENTS AT THE TIME.

AND SHE TOLD ME, YEAH, I DIDN'T EXPECT HIM TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING, REALLY, IN THAT SITUATION.

ALTHOUGH I REALLY WISH HE WOULD HAVE SAID AT THE TIME, HEY, THIS REALLY SUCKS, THIS IS REALLY HARD.

AND HE DIDN'T DO THAT.

AND I THINK THE REASON THAT THAT SCENE IS SO POWERFUL AND IMPORTANT TO INCLUDE IN THE FILM IS THAT I THINK WE'RE ALL ADAM IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS.

I'VE DEFINITELY BEEN IN THAT SITUATION WHERE I DIDN'T REALLY READ WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND I WISH I WOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO REALIZE YOU CAN STILL BE AN ALLY EVEN IF YOU DON'T GET EVERYTHING RIGHT.

>> Braude: BOY, YOU'RE A MUCH KINDER PERSON THAN I AM.

BUT IT IS NOT JUST MEN.

HAVE A BENAGARIN, A SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGIST AT HARVARD, AND SHE APPLIED THIS TEST TO HER STUDENTS, AFTER WHICH SHE HAS THIS INCREDIBLY CANDID ADMISSION.

HERE SHE IS.

>> THE FEELING YOU'LL GET AS YOU TAKE THIS TEST IS ONE OF UTTER DESPAIR.

I OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO ASSOCIATE FEMALE AND MALE EQUALLY WITH SCIENCE.

I AM, AFTER ALL, A WOMAN IN SCIENCE.

IT SHOULD NOT BE SO HARD FOR ME TO DO.

TO DISCOVER THAT I CANNOT DO THAT I THINK IS PROFOUND.

>> Braude: NANCY, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

MY REACTION WAS THAT IT IS SO BAKED IN THAT WE HAVE DECADES OF WORK TO DO.

WHAT WAS YOURS?

>> YES.

I THINK IT REALLY TOOK ME 20 YEARS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS UNCONSCIOUS BIAS WAS THE PROBLEM.

I HAD THIS -- IT WAS LIKE THE LIGHTBULB GOING OFF, AND PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT DISCOVERY I MADE, AND I THINK IT IS PROFOUND.

AND I AGREE.

AND I THINK WHAT THE PSYCHOLOGIST DISCOVERED ABOUT WHY ALL THIS HAPPENED IS HUGELY IMPORTANT.

>> Braude: I WANT TO ASK BOTH OF YOU, BEFORE WE LEAVE, STARTING WITH YOU, NANCY, IN THIS FILM, RACHEL BURKE IS OUTSPOKEN IN SO MANY VENUES, AND JANE COURAGEOUSLY BRINGS THIS TITLE 9 COMPLAINT AND ULTIMATELY BRINGS DOWN A CELEBRATED PROFESSOR AT B.U.

AND, OF COURSE, YOU AND YOUR WOMEN COLLEAGUES AT M.I.T., WITH THE M.I.T.

REPORT -- HOW MUCH HAS CHANGED AS A RESULT OFS OF THE ACTIVISM OF YOU AND SO MANY IN YOUR FIELD, NANCY?

>> I THINK THERE IS SO MUCH.

I HOPE THAT COMES ACROSS IN THE MOVIE.

THAT WHILE THERE ARE STILL ISSUES, IT HAS SO CHANGED.

I'M VERY EXCITED RIGHT NOW.

I THINK THESE YOUNG PEOPLE, LIKE JANE AND MICHELLE, ARE LUCKY.

WE HAD A MAJOR CHANGE, AND NOW THERE IS ANOTHER ONE GOING ON, AND IT IS FOR WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR.

I THINK IT IS TREMENDOUSLY EXCITING.

>> Braude: AS AN OUTSIDER LOOKING IN, DO YOU SHARE NANCY'S OPTIMISM, SHARON?

>> YEAH, I DO.

I FOUND THE WHOLE PROCESS OF MAKING THE FILM, IT WAS DEPRESSING AT TIMES, BUT ALSO I WAS REALLY UPLIFTED JUST SEEING THE WAY PEOPLE HAVE SOLVED THIS PROBLEM, THE WAY NANCY AND HER COLLEAGUES CAME TOGETHER AND CREATED CHANGE.

AND IT REALLY GAVE ME THIS HOPE OF, LIKE, OH, I'M NOT ALONE, WHEN I HAVE THESE LITTLE ISSUES.

BECAUSE THIS IS NOT JUST WOMEN IN SCIENCE ISSUE; IT IS AN EVERYBODY ISSUE.

IT IS NICE TO FEEL LIKE YOU'RE NOT ALONE.

>> Braude: NANCY, I WANT TO END THIS BY COMMENTING ON THE FIRST THING THAT YOU SAID TO ME: ONE THING THAT SHINES THROUGH THROUGHOUT THIS WHOLE FILM, DESPITE THE PAIN THAT YOU AND SO MANY WOMEN HAD TO SUFFER IS NOT ONLY YOUR WILLINGNESS TO FIGHT BACK, BUT ALSO YOUR UNBELIEVABLE LOVE OF SCIENCE.

AND ALL THREE OF THE WOMEN WHO ARE PROFILED, AND IN ALL OF THE OTHER WOMEN IN THE FILM, AND THIS IS COMING FROM SOMEBODY WHO GOT A "D" IN EVERY SCIENCE COURSE I EVER TOOK, BUT IT SHINES THROUGH IN EVERY SECOND OF THE FILM, SO I'M REALLY GLAD YOU SAID IT.

I URGE EVERYBODY TO WATCH THIS.

IT IS BRILLIANT FILM MAKING AND GREAT ACTIVIST.

NANCY AND SHARON, CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU AND ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: YOU CAN WATCH "PICTURE A SCIENTIST" TONIGHT AT 9:00, RIGHT HERE ON GBH 2.

AND, FINALLY TONIGHT, A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT SOME OF YOU HAVE SENT IN DURING THESE PANDEMIC TIMES.

BOB SENT IN THIS STUNNING PHOTO OF AN OSPREY BIRD MID-FLIGHT ON CAPE COD.

RICK SAID THIS SPRINGTIME FAIRY GARDEN WAS A BRIGHT SPOT IN HIS DAY.

AND, LASTLY, JANE SPOTTED THESE BEAUTIFUL FLOWERS IN THE BACK BAY.

THANK YOU ALL FOR SENDING THOSE IN.

IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU'D LIKE TO SHARE WITH US, PLEASE USE THE ADDRESSES ON YOUR SCREEN.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND STAY SAFE.