>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," THE NEWLY NAMED EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF THE "JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION," DR. KIRSTEN BIBBINS-DOMINGO, JOINS ME ON MAKING HISTORY AS THE FIRST PERSON OF COLOR IN THE ROLE, AND HOW A CAREER FOCUSED ON HEALTH EQUITY WILL INFORM HER LEADERSHIP AT A PUBLICATION WITH A ROCKY HISTORY ON EQUITY AND RACE.

LATER ON, WE'LL TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT REPRESENTATION IN RUNNING, AHEAD OF MONDAY'S 126th RUNNING OF THE BOSTON MARATHON, AND ONE WOMAN LOOKING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

PLUS, NATIONAL SECURITY EXPERT JULIETTE KAYYEM, JOINS ME ON HER NEW BOOK, "THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS," ON HOW TO NAVIGATE A WORLD FULL OF AN INCREASING NUMBER OF DISASTERS.

>> Braude: IT'S BEEN NEARLY A YEAR SINCE A BOSTON PEDIATRICIAN STEPPED DOWN AS EDITOR IN CHIEF OF THE "JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION," THE RESULT OF ANOTHER EDITOR QUESTIONING WHETHER RACISM EVEN EXISTED IN MEDICINE ON A "J.A.M.A.

"-AFFILIATED PODCAST, A QUESTION "J.A.M.A."

LATER PROMOTED ON TWITTER.

THIS WEEK, THE "JOURNAL" ANNOUNCED HIS SUCCESSOR, THE FIRST PERSON OF COLOR, AND ONLY SECOND WOMAN EVER TO SERVE IN THE JOB.

DR. KIRSTEN BIBBINS-DOMINGO, WHO JOINS ME NOW.

SHE'S A LONG-TIME HEALTHY EQUITY RESEARCHER AND ADVOCATE, AN INTERNIST, CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE EPIDEMIOLOGIST, AND A PROFESSOR AT U.C.

SAN FRANCISCO.

DOCTOR, GOOD TO MEET YOU.

>> NICE TO MEET YOU.

>> Braude: CONGRATULATIONS, I GUESS.

BUT YOU SAID IT IS YOUR DREAM JOB.

A DREAM JOB WALKING INTO AN EDITORSHIP OF A PUBLICATION THAT HAS BEEN MIERED IN QUITE A BIT OF CONTROVERSY.

>> WELL, THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT JAMA AND THE JAMA NETWORK OF JOURNALS ARE A REALLY EXTRAORDINARY PLATFORM THAT IS PUBLISHING HIGH QUALITY SCIENCE, HIGH QUALITY SCIENCE ACROSS THE BROAD ARRAY OF MEDICINE.

AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES THIS JOB A DREAM JOB HAVING THE CHANCE TO SHAPE THE TYPE OF COMMUNICATION, THE TYPE OF SCIENCE THAT IS PUBLISHED TO THE BROAD AUDIENCE THAT JAMA AND THE JAMA NETWORK OF JOURNALS REACHED.

AND THAT IS WHAT I WAS EXCITED ABOUT.

I THINK IT HAS NEVER BEEN MORE IMPORTANT TO HAVE A JOURNAL AND A NETWORK THAT IS TRANSMITTING HIGH QUALITY SCIENCE, TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUES OF THE DAY THAT SHAPE SCIENCE AND MEDICINE AND DOING SO WITH A TRUSTED VOICE.

AND A BROAD REACH.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU SAID AT THE TIME OF YOUR SELECTION THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARY TIME.

AS YOU JUST SAID FOR SCIENCE, MEDICINE AND PUBLIC HEALTH.

I WOULD AGREE BUT MAYBE NOT IN THE EXACT SAME WAY.

I WANT TO PUT UP A COUPLE OF POLLS FROM JANUARY OF THIS YEAR.

I'M SURE THEY WON'T SURPRISE YOU, FROM THE NORTH CENTER FOR PUBLIC AFFAIRS.

WOULD YOU SAY YOU HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF CONFIDENCE IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY?

64% YES, DEMOCRATS ONLY 34 REPUBLICAN.

WOULD YOU SAY THAT GREAT DEAL OF CONFIDENCE IN MEDICINE?

BOTH UNDERWATER, 45 PERCENT DEMOCRATS, 34 PERCENT REPUBLICANS.

HOW DO YOU BREAK THROUGH THAT LEVEL OF SKIN CIVIL AND POLARIZATION IN.

>> I THINK WHAT MAKES THIS A REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING TIME IS THAT WE ARE AT REALLY A PINNACLE OF MODERN SCIENCE AND MEDICINE, THE AIBLGHTD DURING THE PANDEMIC TO TRANSLATE SO QUICKLY INTO HIGHLY EFFECTIVE VACCINES, HIGHLY EFFECTIVE TREATMENTS AND YET WITHIN THE SAME PANDEMIC WE HAVE DIVISIONS ACROSS.

HERE YOU HAVE HIGHLIGHTED POLITICAL LINES.

WE HAVE DIVISIONS ACROSS AMERICAN LINES IN THE WAY IN WHICH THAT SAME SCIENCE IS VIEWED BY DIFFERENT AUDIENCES.

AND I THINK THAT IS, IT IS AN INTERESTING TIME.

WE SEE THIS ACTUALLY ACROSS A NUMBER OF SECTORS.

I THINK AS MANY PEOPLE POINT OUT WHEN AN INSTITUTION, WHEN PEOPLE LOSE FAITH IN AN INSTITUTION IT'S ALSO INCUMBENT ON THAT INSTITUTION TO HELP RESTORE FAITH.

SOME OF THAT IS ABOUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT IS THAT WE ARE PUBLISHING AND SOME OF IT IS ABOUT THINKING ABOUT THE MANY WAYS IN WHICH WE COMMUNICATE TO A DIVERSE AUDIENCE, DIVERSE ACROSS MULTIPLE DIMENSIONS INCLUDING POLITICAL AS YOU SUGGEST.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT RESTORING FAITH TO USE YOUR EXPRESSION, FOLLOWING THESE INSTANCES.

AND THEY ARE NOT ISOLATED, OF RACISM, THAT PODCAST I MENTIONED, I MENTIONED THE TWEET NOW DELETED BY JAMA.

NO PHYSICIAN IS RACIST SO HOW CAN THERE BE STRUCTURAL RACISM IN HEALTH CARE, AND EXPLANATION OF THE IDEA BY DOCTORS FOR DOCTORS IN THIS USER-FRIENDLY POD-- SPEECHLESS.

OBVIOUSLY ST KNOT ONLY IN THE PUBLICATION, I'M SURE YOU REMEMBER AS DO I, A TWO YEARS AGO 2020 WHITE RESIDENTS RESIDENTS WERE SURVEYED.

MORE THAN HALF THOUGHT THEIR BLACK PATIENTS HAD THICK ERSKINE, HAD HIGHER RESISTANCE TO PAIN.

AND IT IS ALMOST LIKE A SCIENCE FICTION MOVIE.

HOW DO YOU FIX WHAT IS CLEARLY BROKEN?

>> THE FIRST THING IS FOR US TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT IT, NAME IT AND BE TRUTHFUL ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT-- MEDICINE AND SCIENCE DON'T EXIST APART FROM THE LARGER CON CERTIFICATE SAYINGS, THE LARGER STRUCTURAL BIASES, RACISM AND INEQUITIES THAT EXIST WITHIN SOCIETY.

AND IN FACT, IN MANY WAYS RACISM IN MEDICINE CONTRIBUTES TO THE LARGER ISSUES OF STRUCTURAL INEQUITIES THAT WE SEE.

IF WE AS A LARGER SOCIETY AND THEN IN PARTICULAR IN OUR PROFESSION IN SCIENCE AND MEDICINE WANT TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES, WE CANNOT BE SLOW TO NAME THEM.

WE CANNOT BE SLOW TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE HISTORY AS WELL AS ITS INPLEUNS ON OUR CONTEMPORARY PRACTICE.

DOING SO IS THE IMPORTANT FIRST STEP IN RIGHTING THIS WRONG.

I THINK THE PODCAST AND THE TWEET AND THE TYPES OF SELF-REFLECTION THAT JAMA AND THE JAMA NETWORK HAVE GONE THROUGH OVER THIS LAST YEAR ARE EMBLEMATIC ACTUALLY OF THE ENTIRE SITUATION THAT MEDICINE AND SCIENCE HAVE TO GO THROUGH.

AND I THINK THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER.

NONE OF US-- THIS IS NOT A SINGLE PERSON'S ISSUE.

BUT IF JAMA WANTS TO BE A TRUSTED VOICE FOR SCIENCE AND MEDICINE, WE HAVE TO BE THE FIRST TO ACKNOWLEDGE, VERY SCHEER THINGS THAT ARE SHAPING US.

>> AS I MENTIONED WHEN I INTRODUCED YOU, HEALTH EQUITY HAS BEEN AT THE CENTER OF YOUR CAREER.

ARE YOU OF THE OPINION THAT THE SPOTLIGHT THAT HAS BEEN PUT ON HEALTH INEQUITY DURING COVID PROVIDES FERTILE GROUND FOR WORK LIKE YOURS?

OR IS THIS LIKE A PASSING THING.

WE CARE ABOUT IT DEEPLY AND THEN WE JUST MOVE ON.

>> YEAH, IT'S COMPLEX AS YOU JUST SAID.

IT'S COMPLEX BECAUSE IN A GOOD WAY IT HAS-- THE PANDEMIC HAS SHOWN A LIGHT AS MANY HAVE SAID ON THE DEEP INEQUITIES THAT EXISTED WELL BEFORE THE PANDEMIC AND THE PANDEMIC MADE WORSE.

THERE IS ALSO VERY INTERESTING SCIENCE OUT THERE RIGHT NOW THAT IS SUGGESTING THAT AS PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE PANDEMIC AND THE INEQUITIES IN THE PANDEMIC, IT LEADS OTHERS TO THINK THAT THE PANDEMIC IS ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE.

EXPERIENCES OF OTHER PEOPLE.

AND IT ACTUALLY SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO BE COGNIZANT OF IT BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT IS HEARD BY OTHERS.

SO THAT IS THE CHALLENGE, I THINK, OF A GREAT JOURNAL IS TO CONTINUE TO COMMUNICATE THE SCIENCE.

TO CONTINUE TO BE CLEAR ON THE ISSUES THAT ARE FACED BY MULTIPLE COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE U.S. AND GLOBALLY IN THE TYPES OF DISEASES THAT WE ARE COVERING.

BUT ALSO TO DO THAT IN A WAY THAT CONTINUES TO ENGAGE IN A TRUTHFUL WAY AT THE FOREFRONT SO THAT WE CAN HELP TO MOVE SCIENCE AND MEDICINE ALONG.

>> COULD WE FOCUS ON ONE HEALTH EQUITY ISSUE FOR A SECOND.

I'M SURE YOU SAW THE OP ED MAGAZINE SERENA WILLIAMS WROTE AFTER GIVING BIRTH.

IN THE U.S. BLACK WOMEN ARE THREE TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE DURING OR AFTER CHILD BIRTH THAN THEIR WHITE COUNTERPARTS.

BEING HERALD AND APPROPRIATELY TREATED WAS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIFE AND DEBT FOR MEW ME.

I KNOW THE STATISTICS WILL BE DIFFERENT IF THE MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT LISTENS TO EVERY BLACK WOMAN'S EXPERIENCE.

AS YOU KNOW, IT IS BLACK MATERNAL HEALTH WEEK.

THE "BOSTON GLOBE" IN A PIECE THIS AFTERNOON SAID GIVING BIRTH WHILE BLACK SHOULD NOT BE A DEATH SENTENCE BUT IT IS CLEAR TO ME AS A NONMEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, IF IS NOT JUST ABOUT BETTER HEALTH CARE AND BETTER LISTENING, IT IS ADDRESSING ALL THE SOCIAL DETERMINE ANTS FROM CAN YOU GET TO THE DOCTOR WITH AFFORDABLE TRANSPORTATION.

DO YOU HAVE DECENT NUTRITION, GOOD SCHOOLS, SAFE NEIGHBORHOODS, THAT SAY BIG NUT TO CRACK, IS THIS SOCIETY READY TO ADDRESS HEALTH EQUITY IN THAT KIND OF FASHION?

>> YEAH, IT'S A BIG NUT TO CRACK BUT WHAT I LOVE ABOUT SERENA WILLIAMS USING HER VOICE IN THIS WAY IS THAT IT HIGHLIGHTS A REALLY IMPORTANT HEALTH ISSUE RIGHT NOW, THE FACT THAT OUR MATERNAL MORTALITY RATES ARE ON PARRA WITH COUNTRIES WE DON'T USUALLY SHOW UP ON THE SAME LISTS ON.

AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD ALL FEEL SHAME IN.

AND WORK ACTIVELY TO TRY TO REVERSE.

BUT THE ISSUES THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, THE ISSUE ISSUES OF ACCESS AND SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS AND WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO RECEIVE CARE WHICH EFFECTS TO MANY IN THE U.S. AND ABSOLUTELY CONTRIBUTES TO MATERNAL MORTALITY ARE NOT THE ISSUES THAT CONTRIBUTED TO SERENA'S CASE.

AND IT DOES HIGHLIGHT THAT WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THESE ISSUES TOGETHER INCLUDING THE TYPES OF ISSUES OF BIAS AND RACISM THAT CLEARLY LEAD TERN PEOPLE TO HAVE DIFFERENT ENCOUNTERS IN CLINICAL SETTINGS THAT THAN OTHER PEOPLE.

AND WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO TALK ON THESE ISSUES AND UNDER STANT COMPLEXITIES.

ALL OF THESE ISSUES ARE IMPORTANT.

AND THE FACT THAT THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING TO SHOCKINGLY HIGH RATES OF MATERNAL MORTALITY ARE ONES WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT AND SEE INTERVENTIONS THAT ARE REVERSING THEM.

>> DOCTOR, CONGRATULATIONS, I BISH YOU ALOT OF LUCK, HOPE TO TALK TO YOU AGAIN SOON.

>> THANK YOU.

U.S. SECURITY OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN ON ALERT SINCE THE MOMENT IT STARTED TO LOOK LIKE RUSSIA WOULD INVADE UKRAINE, WARNING U.S. COMPANIES AND CITIZENS ALIKE OF POTENTIAL CYBER ATTACKS.

BUT YESTERDAY, THEY KICKED THINGS UP A NOTCH, WITH MULTIPLE AGENCIES ISSUING A JOINT ALERT ABOUT A "SUITE OF MALICIOUS CYBER TOOLS, CAPABLE OF SABOTAGING THE ENERGY SECTOR AND OTHER CRITICAL INDUSTRIES."

MY NEXT GUEST HAS BEEN PREPARING U.S.

AGENCIES FOR THREATS LIKE THESE FOR DECADES, AND PREPARING THEM FOR HOW TO RESPOND, SHOULD THEY OCCUR ANYWAY.

FROM WORKING IN HOMELAND SECURITY DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, TO HER ROLE AS FORMER GOVERNOR DEVAL PATRICK'S SECURITY ADVISOR, JULIETTE KAYYEM HAS LAID THE GROUNDWORK FOR HOW TO DEAL WITH DISASTERS, BOTH NATURAL AND MAN-MADE.

SHE HAS A NEW BOOK OUT ON THE SUBJECT, AND I THINK GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER PROBABLY SUMMED IT UP BEST WHEN HE JOINED US ON "BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO" RECENTLY TO INTERVIEW JULIETTE ABOUT IT: >> "THE DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS," IF YOU READ THIS BOOK, YOU WILL NEVER SLEEP.

>> Braude: AND INDEED, I HAVEN'T.

THE AUTHOR, JULIETTE KAYYEM JOINS ME NOW.

SHE'S ALSO A PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY AT HARVARD'S KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT, CNN COMMENTATOR AND OF COURSE, A LONGTIME "BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO" REGULAR.

JULIETTE, CONGRATULATIONS, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU, THANKS FOR HAVING ME HERE.

>> WHAT IS THE DEVIL THAT IS NEVER SLEEPING.

>> THE DEVIL CAN BE ANYTHING, SO THE PURPOSE OF THE BOOK WAS TO SAY LOOK, THE HARMS THAT WE FACE FROM A CYBERATTACK TO OBVIOUSLY A PANDEMIC, TERRORISM AS WE ARE ALL TOO FAMILIAR WITH, TO NATURAL DISASTERS ARE-- ARE THREATS AND RISKS THAT ARE ONGOING JUST BECAUSE OF GLOBALIZATION, CONNECTIVITY.

SO WHAT I WANTED TO DO WITH THE BOOK IS TO LAY A FRAMEWORK FOR THINKING ABOUT DISASTER MANAGEMENT.

AND THINKING ABOUT SUCCESS IN DISASTER MANAGEMENT.

SO TO SUM IT UP QUICKLY, I WANT TO TEACH PEOPLE TO LEARN TO FAIL SAFER.

NOADZ, TO EXHIBIT SOMETHING BAD TO HAPPEN AND TO MEASURE SUCCESS BY WHETHER WE LIMIT THE ARM, LIMIT THE DAMAGE, OBVIOUSLY LIMIT THE DEATH AND RETURN BACK TO NORMAL.

AND TO GET, AND WHAT ARE THE TOOLS TO DO THAT.

IS AN IMPORTANT ADVICE TO GIVE TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC, TO GIVE THE LEADERS, C.E.O.

'S AND GOVERNMENT LEADERS.

>> WE'RE JUST A COUPLE OF DAYS AWAY FROM THE MARATHON AND EVERYBODY WATCHING, REMEMBERS IN PAINFUL DETAIL WHAT HAPPENED IN 2013.

AND WHILE OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS THE HORROR OF THE THREE PEOPLE WHO DIED ON THE COURSE AND OTHERS AFTER, THE AMAZING PART TO ME, AND I THINK VIRTUALLY EVERYBODY, WAS OF THE HUNDRED PLUS INJURED, SOME IN VERY SERIOUS FASHION, NONE OF THEM, NONE OF THEM DIED.

IS THAT NOT AN EXAMPLE OF EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?

>> THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT.

SO WE, WE ARE SIMPLE PEOPLE IN DISASTER MANAGEMENT.

WE DIVIDE THE WORLD INTO TWO TIME ZONES.

ONE IS LESS OF BOOM, WE CALL IT WHICH IS ALL THE PREVENTION AND ALL THE THINGS, INTELLIGENCE TO TRY TO STOP A BAD THING FROM HAPPENING.

THE BOOM COULD BE ANYTHING INCLUDING TWO BROTHERS AT THE FINISH LINE AT THE BOSTON MARATHON AND THE RIGHT IS HOW WE RESPOND.

I WANT PEOPLE TO THINK ABOUT SORT OF A LESS THAN STANDARD.

AS BOSTON MARATHON IS IN MY BOOK BECAUSE WHILE THE TRAGEDY AT THE MARATHON, OF COURSE S THAT THREE PEOPLE WERE KILLED IMMEDIATELY, LOOKING BACK AT IT FOR MANY YEARS, THE AMAZING THING IS BECAUSE OF THE EFFORTS AND PREPAREDNESS AND RESPONSE TO THE BOOM, WE WERE ABLE TO LIMIT THE DAMAGE.

AND THAT INCLUDED NOT JUST THE TRAINING BUT THE ABILITY TO PIVOT, THE COMMUNICATION PLANS, FAMILIES REUNIFICATION.

SO JUST LIKE WHAT YOU SAID, JIM.

IF YOU MADE IT TO A HOSPITAL, YOU SURVIVED.

THESE ARE NUMBERS THAT WE GENERALLY DON'T SEE IN MOST DISASTERS.

AND THAT GOES TO, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THINK BOSTON STRONG IS AN ATTITUDE.

NO, BOSTON STRONG WAS AN INVESTMENT IN THE KIND OF EXPECTATIONS OF SOMETHING BAD HAPPENING AND ALL THE PREPARATION THAT WENT INTO IT.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE VIRTUALLY EVERY PAGE IS ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE.

SOME OF WHICH WE ARE ARE FAMILIAR WITH.

SOME OF WHICH WE COULDN'T BE.

I WAS HALF FAMILIAR WITH THE RESELLING-- RETELLING THAT WAS MOST DRAMATIC TO ME.

WHEN YOU COMPARE ONE NUCLEAR FACILITY IN JAB AN WITH ANOTHER SIMILARLY SITUATED NUCLEAR FACILITY THAT I HAD NEVER HEARD OF, TELL THE STORY.

>> YES, I APPRECIATE IT.

THE STORIES I TELL IN THE BOOK I SHOULD SAY ARE MEANT TO BE NOT SCAREER, GOVERNOR BAKER SAID THEY AREN'T, SOME OF THEM ARE NOT SCARY.

BUT TO GET PEOPLE TO RELATE TO DISASTERS IN A WAY THAT THEY CAN UNDERSTAND.

SO I JUST BASICALLY TELL A LOT OF STORIES FROM THE TROJAN HORSE TO GET ALL THE WAY TO SURFSIDE.

AND FUKUSHIMA OF COURSE WAS THE NUCLEAR FACILITY IMPACTED BY AN EARTHQUAKE IN THE OR, A TEU NAMMEE COMING INTO THE JEES COASTLINE AND FUKUSHIMA IS THE NUCLEAR FACILITY DOES NOT REACT IN TIME, HAS NOT PREPARED TO FAIL SAFE, HAS IGNORED WARNING SIGNS FROM THE PAST.

STOINS THAT SIT ABOVE IT ON THE CLIFFS ABOVE WHERE IT WAS BUILT, THAT SAY DO NOT BUILD BELOW THIS LINE.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, YOU KNOW, A SOCIETY THAT HAD CONVINCED ITSELF THAT NUCLEAR ENERGY WAS PERFECTLY SAFE AND PART OF THAT IS THE HISTORY OF THEIR-- OF HIROSHIMA AND NAG SAIK, THE NUCLEAR ATTACKS ON JAPAN.

GO DOWN THE BLOCK A COUPLE OF MILES AND THIS IS THE STORY YOU DON'T HEAR.

THERE IS A DIFFERENT FACILITY ONAGA-WA WHERE THEY ARE TRAINED TO FAIL SAFE, THEY WILL PRESSURE SUCCESS IN NOT IF EVERYTHING GOES WELL, BECAUSE THAT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE TRUE IN ALL CASES BUT WHETHER THEY CAN RESPOND AND FAIL IN A WAY THAT MINIMIZES THE HARM THAT NUCLEAR FACILITY HAD DAMAGE FROM THE EARTHQUAKE, GOT LOTS OF WATER FROM THE TSUNAMI BUT DID NOT HAVE A RADIATION LEAK.

SO THE READER WILL BE STEERED TOWARDS THE OTHER STORY, RATHER THAN THINKING FUKUSHIMA REPRESENTS ALL NUCLEAR ENERGY, RIGHT T DOESN'T, WE CAN BUILD NUCLEAR FACILITIES.

FOR EXAMPLE, SAFER, AND SAFELY.

I DON'T USE THE WORD SAFE BECAUSE WE OBVIOUSLY LIVE IN A HIGH RISK SOCIETY.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU AND GOVERNOR-- THE GOVERNOR WERE HAVING A CONVERSATION ON OUR SHOW, IT IS CLEAR THAT IT IS NOT JUST STRATEGY AND PRESENTATION STRKS ALSO THEY ARE POLITICAL CONVERSATIONS AND HE TALKED ABOUT SPENDING MORE THAN A HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS ALMOST RIGHT AWAY WHEN HE TOOK OFFICE AFTER THE BLIZZARD OF 2015 AND THE DISIS AS TER THAT CAME WITH IT FOR PEOPLE.

AFTER HE TOLD THAT STORY YOU BROUGHT UP SOMETHING CALLED THE PREPAREDNESS PARADOX.

EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS, JULIETTE.

>> SO WE ARE CHALLENGED POLITICALLY BY THE PREPAREDNESS PARADOX.

IT IS ESSENTIALLY THE MORE INVESTMENT YOU MAKE IN THE MOMENT OF THE BOOM, RIGHT, IN GETTING READY FOR IT THROUGHOUT THE BOOK I TALK ABOUT YOU ARE HERE NOW.

THIS IS THE MOMENT, THE PLOR INVESTMENTS YOU MAKE, THE BETTER YOU DO WHEN THE DEVIL DOES COME, WHATEVER IT CAN BE.

AND PEOPLE WILL WONDER WHY DID WE INVEST SO MUCH IN THAT CONCERN BECAUSE NOTHING REALLY BAD HAPPENED.

THE BEST EXAMPLE OF THAT IS Y2K WHEN BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WERE SPENT TO GET OUR COMPUTERS UPGRADED, PREPARED FOR THE FLM 2 THOUSAND, 2 THOUSAND COMES ALONG, AND NOT MUCH BAD HAPPENED.

AND PEOPLE LOOK BACK AT THAT AND GO EVERYONE OVERREACTED.

NOPE, IT WAS THAT EVERYONE INVESTED IN THAT THE BOOM COULD COME AND WHAT WERE WE GOING TO DO TO BE ABLE TO GET THROUGH THAT PROCESS.

SO THE ONLY, THE POLITICAL RESPONSE NOT PREPAREDNESS PARADOX IS TO NOT VIEW DISASTERS AS RANDOM AND RARE.

THEY ARE FLOW STANDARDS OPERATING PROCEDURE AND THAT THE INVESTMENTS WE MAKE IN PERPETUAL PREPAREDNESS ARE INVESTMENTS IN TODAY.

THEY ARE NOT INVESTMENTS IN SOME, YOU KNOW, RESILIENT WORLD, OF UNICORNS AND RAINBOWS IN THE FUTURE.

AND THE PEOPLE DID BEGIN TO SEE THAT.

THERE IS A LOT WE CAN DO TODAY.

I WANT A BETTER WORLD IN THE FUTURE BUT THAT'S GOING TO COME LATER TODAY.

TO MINIMIZE THE HARM THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO STOP 100 PERCENT OF THE TIME.

SOO IT SAY REALISTIC BOOK BUT ONE THAT I HOPE GIVES PEOPLE AGENCY AS WELL, OTHERWISE YOU'RE GOING TO FEEL FRUSTRATED AND PARALYZED ALL THE TIME.

>> AND THE PEOPLE YOU GIVE AGENCY TO, TO BE CLEAR STRKS NOT JUST C.E.O.S AND ELECTED LEADERS.

I THINK YOU USE THE PHRASE ALL OF US ARE CRISIS MANAGERS AND THAT INCLUDES THE MAN OR WOMAN RUNNING HIS OR HER HOME AND THEIR FAMILY.

ALL OF THESE LESSONS APPLY TO THEM AS WELL, YESES.

>> THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT.

SO FROM THE HIGHEST LEVEL C.E.O.S TO THE POORNT AND THE FAMILY MEMBERS, OBVIOUSLY AFTER THE PANDEMIC WE CERTAINLY KNOW THIS THO BE TRUE.

BUT WHAT I WANTED TO DO WITH THE BOOK OR WHAT I DID WITH THE BOOK WAS SAY LOOK, EVERYTHING, ALL THESE DIFFERENT HARMS CAN OCCUR.

THE CAUSES ARE OFTEN DIFFERENT.

LOOK AT THE SUBWAY ATTACK THIS WEEK IN NEW YORK.

YOU KNOW WHO IS THAT, WHAT IS THE MOTIVATION.

IN SOME WAY STS IRRELEVANT.

BECAUSE FROM CENTURIES OF DISASTERS THAT ARE RIGHT ABOUT AND DRAW LESSONS FROM YOU ESSENTIALLY CAN DO THIS IN 18, AND THEY INVOLVE COMMUNICATION AND FAIL SAFE SYSTEMS AND THINGS THAT YOU CAN DO FROM THE HOME LEVEL TO THE C.E.O.S TO THE GOVERNMENT LEVEL.

AND SO I WANT TO MAKE IT, IN A WEIRD WAY I WANT TO MAKE DISASTER MANAGEMENT USER-FRIENDLY.

I WANT TO MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE BECAUSE OUR INVESTMENT E PERSONAL, INSTITUTIONAL, GOVERNMENTWISE WILL LIMIT THE HARM.

AND THAT IS HOW WE OFTEN HAVE TO MEASURE SUK SISES.

I SAY YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO GET A MILLION DEAD WITH COVID.

AND IT IS SORT OF A SHOCKING NUMBER TO SAY IF YOU ARE IN THE UNITED STATES ALONE, RELATIVELY SOON.

AND NO ONE BUT WE HAVE THE PANDEMIC, PEOPLE WERE GOING TO DIE.

AND THE MEASURE OF SUCCESS IS COULD WE HAVE DONE THAT WITH FEWER DEATHS.

I THINK EVERYONE IS THINKING THAT THAT IS TRUE, RIGHT.

THAT IS GOING TO BE HOW WE LOOK BACK, IS THE LIVES THAT COO HAVE BEEN SAVED WITH MORE AGGRESSIVE PREPAREDNESS AND OF COURSE VACCINATION PROGRAM THAT WASN'T SORT OF THOUGHT ALONG THE WAY.

>> WE'VE GOT TO GO BUT I THINK WE'RE LUCKY YOU GREW UP AS AN EARTHS QUAKE KID IN CALIFORNIA.

GOT YOU WHERE YOU ARE TODAY, JULIETTE CAY KAYYEM, TERRIFIC BOOK.

>> Braude: JULIETTE KAYYEM, THANKS.

THE BOOK AGAIN IS THE "DEVIL NEVER SLEEPS: LEARNING TO LIVE IN AN AGE OF DISASTERS."

I ALSO WANT TO OFFER AN UPDATE ON A STORY WE BROUGHT YOU BACK IN FEBRUARY, WHEN POLICE WERE PURSUING CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST SEVEN WOBURN HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS, ACCUSED OF ASSAULTING A FRESHMAN FOOTBALL PLAYER LAST FALL IN MULTIPLE INCIDENTS, WITH VIDEO OF ONE CIRCULATED ON SOCIAL MEDIA AFTER.

NOW, NEARLY SEVEN MONTHS SINCE THE FIRST INCIDENT, ASSAULT CHARGES HAVE FINALLY BEEN FILED AGAINST ALL SEVEN STUDENTS INVOLVED, STUDENTS WHO JOHNATHON COUCELOS SAID JUMPED HIM IN THE LOCKER ROOM, PUNCHED AND HIT HIM WITH WATER BOTTLES, AND ONE OF WHOM PULLED DOWN HIS PANTS AND GRABBED HIS GENITALS.

JUST ONE OF SEVERAL ASSAULTS, THREATS, AND INSTANCES OF BULLYING AGAINST HIM, WHICH HE TOLD US IN FEBRUARY HAD A LASTING IMPACT.

>> I LOST HALF OF MY FRIENDS.

IT DOESN'T FEEL THE SAME ANYMORE TO BE OUT IN PUBLIC.

>> Braude: AND EVEN IN FEBRUARY, COUCELOS'S PARENTS AND ATTORNEY SHARED THEIR FRUSTRATION ABOUT HOW SLOWLY THE WHEELS OF JUSTICE WERE TURNING AND THE LACK OF CHARGES AGAINST THE ADULTS INVOLVED, AFTER JONATHAN TOLD A COACH ABOUT THE FIRST ASSAULT IMMEDIATELY-- AND, ACCORDING TO THEM, NOTHING HAPPENED.

>> IT GETS ME EMOTIONAL EVERY TIME I HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE HOW THE SCHOOL SYSTEM COMPLETELY FAILED TO PROTECT ONE OF THEIR STUDENTS.

>> Braude: THE FAMILY HAS NOTIFIED WOBURN OFFICIALS THAT THEY'RE PLANNING TO SUE THE CITY AND THE SCHOOL DEPARTMENT.

THE SCHOOL, FOR ITS PART, IS CONDUCTING A TITLE IX INVESTIGATION OF THE INCIDENT.

THIS COMING MONDAY MARKS THE 126th RUNNING OF THE BOSTON MARATHON, AND AMONG 30,000 PARTICIPANTS IS ONE LOCAL WOMAN WITH A BIG GOAL, OF MAKING RUNNING MORE INCLUSIVE, IN THE MARATHON AND BEYOND.

>> Running is really a microcosm of the larger society.

So even though it should be all welcoming and inclusive, it's not.

(feet pattering) (heavy breathing) This year, I'm running the Boston Marathon, First time ever.

>> Three, two, one.

>> Boston was something that I never expected to run.

I didn't think of it as a welcoming space.

>> Next Russian twist.

>> Oh, that's fun.

When you see, like, the banners all over the city, they're only in specific parts of the city.

You don't see them in communities, let's say of Roxbury or Mattapan.

And when you see it on TV or advertised, it always is the Africans and the white runners.

So then, me, as an African American, why should I care?

Why should I be involved?

Because my face, my name, my voice has not been a part of it.

S S S S S S My path to running started in 2011.

I lost my mother because of cancer And so I was grieving, and a friend of mine asked me if I wanted to run the Harpoon five-miler in South Boston.

I said, "sure, I'll do it," not knowing what the yes would mean.

The gun went off, and I panicked, and ran.

But in that moment of running, I felt a little lighter.

I had been numb for so long and running this race, I actually felt something.

So I started to run in my neighborhood, and it was healing for me.

And then as I was running, I realized I didn't see any other Black person running.

Like, I was the only person who looked like me running And I knew that couldn't be the case.

I knew there were other Black women who ran.

I just didn't know where they are.

S S S S S S >> In the magazines and the media, there's this idea of a woman runner's body, of how she be probably tall, thin, white.

You don't see, like, I have curves, I have an Afro, I have dreads, and I run.

I've learned that there is this sub-community of Black women who do run, who are invisible in this space, And my goal was to make us visible.

>> So again, challenge the power structure because there are educators, I'm a sociology professor at Salem State University.

>> We've been talking about inequality, we've been talking about sociological imagination.

So the academic in me was looking up like, literature on Black women running, And I found hardly anything.

And so I thought, well, if I'm not finding any answers, then I need to do the research to find out what are the experiences of Black women who run?

Why do Black women run?

How is that in relationship to running being such a white space?

I would run more and I actually did meet Black women.

And so that started me with this brilliant idea, of running a half marathon in every state to collect data and information.

(medals clinking) I started this journey in 2015.

2022 will be the final two states on the continent U.S., And then 2023 will be Hawaii.

They all like, just remind me of where I started and how far I have to go.

S S S S S S Progress is slow, but progress is happening.

It shouldn't be a, just for the moment.

It's like, how are we GOING TO integrate this into the fabric of us for the long haul, forever?

S S S S S S Running the Boston Marathon, I feel like this will be my-- I feel welcome and kind of belonging in the space.

It took some time, but when people ask me, you know, "have you run the Boston Marathon?"

I'll be very proud to say "yes, I have, I did it."

S S S S S S >> Braude: WE'LL HAVE MUCH MORE MARATHON COVERAGE OVER THE COMING DAYS, INCLUDING AN IN-DEPTH LOOK AT INCLUSIVITY IN RUNNING TOMORROW ON "BASIC BLACK," WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE PUSHING TO EXPAND RUNNING PROGRAMS IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

NOT JUST FOR HEALTH REASONS, BUT AS A VEHICLE FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE, TOO.

THAT'S TOMORROW AT 7:30 ON GBH-2.

AND THEN, MONDAY ON "BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO"-- THE FIRST WOMAN TO EVER COMPLETE THE BOSTON MARATHON, BOBBI GIBB; 2018 WINNER, DES LINDEN; AND FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER BILL EVANS, WHO'S RUN BOSTON DOZENS OF TIMES -- ARE ALL AMONG OUR GUESTS.

THAT'S MONDAY AT 11:00 ON "GBH RADIO," 89.7.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "TALKING POLITICS."

ADAM REILLY AND HIS PANEL WILL TAKE A LOOK AT THE NEWLY-RELEASED PLANS ON HOW TO SPEND YOUR TAX DOLLARS BY THE MASSACHUSETTS HOUSE AND BOSTON MAYOR MICHELLE WU.

PLUS, WHY ADVOCATES SAY WE SHOULD KEEP REMOTE ACCESS TO PUBLIC MEETINGS PERMANENTLY, EVEN IF COVID FINALLY FADES AWAY THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

I'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org