Speaker 1: Welcome to the Texas talk.

I'm Gilbert Garcia, Metro columnist, with the San Antonio express news.

On this show, we bring you in-depth one-on-one conversations with some of the most fascinating figures in Texas politics, culture, sports, and business.

Our guest tonight is Dr. Sonya.

a professor at the university of Texas at San Antonio, who in 2020 created a class devoted to studying the cultural legacy of the late legendary Tohono singer.

Selena, Dr. Oliman is proponent of critical race theory and academic approach that has been widely discussed and widely attacked, but not so widely understood.

She's also got a lot to say about the shortcomings of the news media in our society.

Let's get started.

Dr. Man.

Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2: You're welcome.

Thank you for the invitation Speaker 1: You initiated your class introduced to you in the fall of 2020, the class in Salina.

But my sense is that this is an idea that you'd had for, for a while, maybe for a few years.

What was it about, about her story that you thought who would make these such fertile material for a college course?

Speaker 2: I mean, there are a couple of triggers that kind of gave me the idea.

The biggest spark was probably in 2015, my first semester teaching at UCSA.

I was teaching for the Mexican American studies program and teaching a course called Latino cultural expressions, where we just do a survey kind of, of all the different cultural products that have come out of Latino communities, primarily focused on Mexican American communities because of where we're at, where we're at, where our students come from.

And so Selena filtered into so many of those conversations in terms of the film, the biopic about her, certainly her music dancing, right as, as forms of cultural products.

And it just dawned on me as I was sharing my own personal experiences of watching her perform and hearing her music growing up, that I was the only person in the classroom about 50 students, right.

That was alive at the same time that she was, and it was such a triggering moment.

Like, yes, of course that is the case because my students are college aged, right?

They are, are much younger than and born after her death.

But it, it was just a moment in the classroom that it kind of like clicked into place for me that, that there was an opportunity to explore how they understood her versus my understanding of her and how we talked about her.

And, and then just letting that idea of blossom.

You know, I looked at the fact that a few years, maybe, maybe only a year previously UTC had offered a course on Beyonce, the lemonade album that was really successful.

Yeah.

I that's how, that's how I understood the structure of the course.

And it was highly successful, very popular garnered media attention.

So I knew there was a precedent for courses like that, that, that are based on a pop culture figure or celebrity or idea.

There's like lots of courses about Harry Potter.

You know, there's ranging from literature to philosophy, to politics.

There's been courses on prints and the rolling stones and the beetle, you know, so I knew that that wasn't a stretch for higher ed and I thought, wouldn't it, doesn't it just make sense that would happen here at UCSA in San Antonio, which is at the Hannah music capital of the world, right.

The base of kind of what her career was based on.

Right.

And so it just, you know, all of that kind of spraying from that initial moment in the classroom, that there was just an opportunity that students would really benefit from.

So it wasn't so much that, that I myself wanted to teach it or felt that it was something that I personally needed to do because initially I didn't think that way, I just thought it was a great opportunity for students to be excited by that kind of class and delve into those conversations about what she means to the community.

So that's kind of where it started and all the different elements that help formulate what the class looks like.

Now Speaker 1: It's been 27 years since she passed.

And it seems like there's more fascination with her than ever.

I mean, just in the time, roughly about a year and a half, since you introduced the class, there's been a Netflix series, there's been a podcast series.

I think this month we're seeing screenings and theaters to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the biopic, starring Jennifer Lopez, let's talk of a new Selena album.

What do you think it is about her?

I mean, this is probably there probably a lot of different things, but when you think about what it is about her, that resonates so much with people, including people, as you said, who were not alive, were not around when she was alive.

Speaker 2: I mean, given, given that most of my scholarly training is in media studies, I do think there's a huge component of it being about representation, right?

So she's one of the few Latino women because she's been able to kind of cross various Latini that is, and, and people can connect to her that that has achieved mainstream kind of circulation and presence.

And so, because there isn't multiple versions of Selena that we are drawn to, that we can see ourselves in.

I do think that continues to be one of the reasons why that, that she is still held.

So dear, because she's just one of the very, very few in which members of Latino communities can see themselves in, but there are, but that's just one, like, as you said, of reasons why that would be the case, right?

So I do think that there's credit needs to be given to the entire company, a family and the music that they've produced for her it's timeless.

It's completely still relevant, right?

It doesn't sound dated when you hear it, her own incredible talent, her own distinctive voice, right?

Unmatchable, voice, her stage presence, all the different ways that, that we're still able to kind of see and hear her that exists today, her own personality people, she was just, she remained such a humble celebrity.

And one of the, the, one of the account executives that worked with her through Coke shared with me, and we got to connect as, as just a serendipitous part of putting the course together, described her as always being extremely touchable.

And, and so she didn't carry herself with like this, you know, walls or an entourage around her.

So I think that still rings true for people, right?

There's something about her sincerity that continues to be a draw Speaker 1: Maria Garcia who hosted the, anything for something podcast series talked about.

I think she was born in New Mexico and bought his family moved across the borders.

He'll pass it when she was young and talked about in her early years.

And when she was in school, you know, she didn't feel American enough for the kids that she was going to school with when she would go back across the border on the weekends to visit, you know, family and friends, you know, there was a sense that she wasn't Mexican enough maybe because maybe she was, she was trying to assimilate in the United States.

And so she felt like she didn't fit in either world.

And in Selena, she saw someone who sort of gave her a sense of identity, a sense of belonging.

Like I, you know, th that that's maybe a model that, that she could, she could follow.

Is that something that you hear?

Speaker 2: Absolutely.

I mean, since her death and that scholars have been writing about her, that is clearly an anchoring point about how they understand her significance.

And one of the other reasons that I think she continues to have residents because the conditions for that type of, by cultural reality, that she represents still exists for Latino and Mexican American communities.

So the fact that she kind of embodied what that was like to, to be straddling both worlds, to be able to fuse both worlds, to have to go and reclaim some of Speaker 1: That Speaker 2: She did.

Right.

And so we are those of us who identify as Mexican American or other forms of Latinos sometimes are feel a great sense of shame for not being enough of either of those.

And she never, you never saw her publicly be embarrassed by that or deny it.

And so I think that's another, because those conditions continue to exist and generations still have to contend with that sentiment of not being enough of one or the other, which is so beautifully articulated in the film by Edward James, almost as Abraham Kintone.

And that scene that wasn't, that was a, you know, that's, that's a line, right?

That, that almost everybody who's, who's seen the film right.

Can recite and relate to.

It actually was one of the additional inspirations for how the course is structured is thinking about how can we tease that apart of why that continues to be the case using Selena as an entree point?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Slim was only 23 years old when she was killed.

I think this week, she'd probably think it's this week, she'll be turning 51.

How much thought have you given to, you know, where she would be now?

What, what, I guess we, when, whenever we have, you know, people, you know, musical artists or people that we, that we admire where there's always some S if their, if their lives are cut short, we always wonder where things might've gone.

W what is your sense about that?

Speaker 2: I mean, I think that she would have continued along a trajectory that she clearly saw for herself.

I think she probably would have been the first kind of, you know, celebrity business woman, right.

She was already starting down that path that was relatively new for artists, for the musicians, right.

At that time period.

I think she would have done that successfully.

I think she probably would have crossed over with a good deal of success.

If I, if I had to point to examples of other artists who followed her that did that, you know, we could look at someone like Jennifer Lopez career or Shakita.

And so both of them did kind of modify their aesthetic, their look, their sound to fit mainstream kind of norms and expectations.

So there's a possibility that that would have been the path that Selena took.

It's, it's hard to know, right.

At this point, if, if she would have held firm and continue to embrace the things about her that made her so identifiable beat the HANA.

So identify with the Mexican American, knowing the pressures that the mainstream industry, what I've put on her to make those adjustments.

So if it had played out in that way, there might be different ways that the, that the con the communities that love her now con you know, continue to be devoted to her.

That, that part, I don't, I don't feel I can speak confidently of how that would have played out.

But I do think that that would have been an element that you can't deny that would have been a part of that path.

Speaker 1: You taught the class in 20, 20, 20, 21, and then the fall of 2021.

And we're going to be re re-introducing in the summer.

What kind of feedback have you gotten from students up to this point?

Speaker 2: It's been overwhelmingly positive.

I mean, they, they, one of the main themes of what they say at the end of the course is that it's nothing, that what they expected, that they didn't realize how much there was to unpack and tease about her life and her legacy.

They share that they take, if they take the class alongside their family members, their friends, that as soon as they tell people, they're in the class, every time they have an interaction with them, or even immediately after the class ends, they go and say, today, we talked about this, or here was our conversation, or they share the reading material for class.

I've had so many students say, my mom has read everything that I've read for the class.

My sister and I are both reading the class material.

Sometimes they'll say my sister likes, sits in the room when I'm online, listening to the class.

Right?

So there's this sense that it's kind of like this community experience of, of, of taking the course that that is unlike any other course that they've ever taken, right.

That parents or friends are not asking to read what they're reading right.

For their courses.

And one of the things that I've, that I've done to structure the courses as have them start to see themselves as contributing to the knowledge that exists, that the scholarly knowledge that exists around Selena.

So when I shared that, one of the impetuses for the class was realizing these younger fans have a different lived experience in their relationship with Selena.

That that was an opportunity for a class assignment where students interview fans that are from that age group.

And so they tell us they, they then analyze what those responses are from those interviews and find the patterns and the points of significance of what she means to them.

And so they are, I, I encourage them to think about the work that they're doing as making them Selena scholars, because they are cultivating knowledge that doesn't exist currently about this particular fan base.

And so I think that's also a new experience for them that they're, co-constructing the knowledge that's being produced or learned in the class.

So those are the three things that, that I would say overwhelmingly mark, the experiences of students who take it.

Speaker 1: I wanted to talk a little bit about the fact that you're introducing it's a summer.

Cause my understanding, this is the first time that you it's going to be open to members of the community.

There'll be some slots available.

Could you talk a little bit about that?

And for people who are interested, you know, what the, the period of registration, sorry, Speaker 2: So you and many other universities provide a path for folks to do that.

It's just auditing a course.

So, so UTS students can do it if they want to take a course, but, but don't want to have to get graded on it or have it affects.

And so it also that same mechanism exists for non UTC folks.

So it's just a, the first kind of a barrier is the instructor deciding that they'll allow for people to audit the course, once that decision has been made, then that's just a, a small fee.

I believe it's a brown $50 and then a form that's filled out and has to be approved through a couple of levels from my chair is a second.

And I, I, since I haven't walked anybody through the process, I can't remember if there's a third one yet, but I do know that those two levels exist.

And so it's, it's a relatively minor investment to be able to get that approval, but it really ultimately rests with the instructor being willing to allow students to take the course without having to get credit for it.

And, and so I've, I've opened up, I'm hoping to save 10 slots in the summer for, for community folks who want to take your course.

Speaker 1: And I wanted to talk a little bit about critical race theory.

This is something that you've, you've written about.

I know you've utilized it in your work, and it's just gotten so much attention over the past few years, particularly in, you know, in Texas there's and other states there's been a push to, to ban critical race theory in the classroom.

We could Tongy brown Jackson, who will be the first African-American woman on the U S Supreme court.

Recently three in her confirmation pro product process was just subjected to endless questioning from a Senate Republicans about her, her position on critical race theory.

But for all the discussion, I just feel like there's so little public understanding about what it really is.

So, I mean, that's something that you, you're someone who actually has a real understanding of knowledge of it.

How, how do you describe it?

Or how would you describe it to someone who is not, who's heard about it, but doesn't really understand what it means?

Speaker 2: Sure.

I, the most simplest way, I think to explain it is this theory that helps to understand how race and racism work.

And it complicates our common sense ideas of it as being rooted in individual prejudices, biases, or ignorance, and understands how it works as a system, as, as parts of our institutional structures.

And so it shifted kind of a, an understanding of that.

And so that was its root right?

Coming out of legal studies, legal scholars were looking at why didn't civil rights legislation kind of start to unstable and, and shift and minimize the inequities that were based on race.

And then they realized that that at the, at that level, you couldn't, that it didn't change those attitudes because those, those ideas were so embedded in the systems and policies and practices of multiple societies, institutions, media, schooling, healthcare policing.

And so those things continue to exist.

And so it, it gives us a complicated understanding of, of race that most people don't use to, to talk about it in the ways that they do.

And so it gives us a language.

That's the other thing that I think it, it offers, it gives us a language to, to help make sense of that structural work of the way it's connected to the way that it's a power structure.

And, and, and the, the other thing that it does that has, that makes it attractive for a lot of scholars of color who want to write about issues of race is that it it's centers, the experiences of those who have been racialized, who have experienced racism as experts in how it works.

And so it draws on their expertise.

It draws on their lived experience to inform their scholarship as opposed to being research on their, their ways of knowing are, is driving the research.

So it's a way to understand racist racism as a structural issue.

It prioritizes the experiences of, of communities of color who have been racialized in ways that that haven't happened in, in academic circles before.

And it helps us, I think, have a more useful way of talking about power and understanding its connection to racial categories and the experiences of being other that, that sharpen our understanding of how it works based on as compared to previous understandings of race.

Speaker 1: No, in San Antonio, historically we've had, we've had, we've had systemic racism has manifested in red lining policies, restrictive covenants, and it kept people out of neighborhoods segregated, poorly funded schools for a long time.

I think there's an effort now to correct that, but for a long time, you had parts of the city, south side, west side, east side that did not get adequate infrastructure.

And so, but it seems to me that the people who were hostile to the idea of critical race theory have the idea that racism is something that's just kind of an aberrant behavior by certain individuals, as opposed to any more systemic is that why people there's such hostility you think because there's kind of, it's threatening to people maybe in terms of the way that they view society or, Speaker 2: Yeah.

I mean, I do think that's an element of it, right?

And, and so, because there's a more common sense understanding of, of, of racism as being rooted in individual attitudes that, that, that they, that there's an assumption that that's the only way that it's talked about, especially using this framework, but critical race theory offers you a way to see it in a much broader scope and picture.

And so it's not about identifying or, or even assigning those, those inequities to an individual body, but I'm assuming that it must be, if you don't see it that way, if you don't see it right in, in its structural manifestations, that, and that's that you're limited by my understanding.

And then that way it's going to feel like a direct attack.

The other thing that, that, that makes CRT really attractive, I think for scholars who use it, is that it, it not only shows how, how racial categories make one group feel discriminated or inferior, but that it also advantages and privileges another one in ways that have become normalized.

Right?

So it's, it's in recognizing privilege and advantages that have been normalized and taken for granted when those are w are pointed to and marked and unsettled a little bit by the theory that also feels threatening because it means that that then resources and power have to be shared in a ways in ways that have been rationalized why they're not.

And so I think that's can explain why some of that resistance currently exists.

Speaker 1: One of the byproducts of this sort of a crusade against it has been, that we've seen in, in school libraries, we've seen books removed and they generally seem to be books related to race or gender or sexual orientation.

What, what do you make of the, of what's going on with that?

Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's such a misguided effort and we've seen the consequences of that is that it's doing the exact opposite, that it's, it's drawing more and more, especially youth to those readings.

Exactly.

Right.

If, and if, if it seems that it comes from a very place that doesn't, that may be aware of, but there's not operating with a full understanding of how even like youth, what interests them, right.

As soon as you say something is off the table, that's what they're going to be drawn to.

So it seems so misguided for that effort.

And yeah, I mean, I think it's just, it's really unfortunate that, that the policing of ideas of, of minimizing, like the range of ideas that people can be exposed to simply by going to a library and reading a bulker within a classroom, it seems so contrary to how we understand ourselves as a nation.

All of it seems rather ridiculous and, and, and hypocritical for those moves to be happening right now, Speaker 1: Before we wrap things up, I wanted to talk a little bit about journalism, the media.

I know that as mentored graduate at St Mary's university, you were editor in chief of the school newspaper and, and just journalism and how people have used the disseminated in this country, I think has been a really important part of your research and your writing.

When you look at what the flaws that we have in, in journalism now, or in the news media, what did some of the things that stand up?

I mean, is it, is it just a lack of diversity?

Is it just, is the, the idea of objectivity that, is that an illusion that, that maybe is, is holding back the way things are covered?

What, where, what do you see as the biggest shortcomings Speaker 2: I would probably point to, and, and I think my, my scholarship would indicate that that, that the notion of objectivity still continues to be such an underlying vital, like key element of, of the And so to, to trouble that in any way to say that that doesn't exist or to, to shift the, the formula of kind of new storytelling, that has two sides as if they there's no power differential between them.

And in reporting stories that have to do with marginalized communities really only supports the side that has more access to the power, right.

And more access to be able to tell the story that way.

So I think that that continues to be one of the, the obstacles, even when you have increased representation in newsrooms, because they have the same training, those folks have the same training about how to tell the story.

And so it's really hard to work around that.

I do think though, that there has, has been movement that I'd never would have imagined as editor of my campus newspaper all that many years ago.

When I see, you know, folks like Anderson Cooper talking about his white identity, or recognizing the privileges of his whiteness and using that language, I never would have imagined that that would have been, you know, something that would have been on a national AirWave.

And so I do think that there's, and, and I think it's only fair to say, right?

That that language exists because of the work of folks in critical race theory, right.

It's articulating those kinds of concepts for us.

And so I do think that there's there's, there is an opportunity for growth.

There is an opportunity for change for those conversations to continue to happen.

Right.

Speaker 1: Dr. Oliman thank you so much for being with us.

We really appreciate it.

You're Speaker 2: Welcome.

That's all for this edition of Texas.

Todd, thanks for tuning in.

We'd love to hear from you.

So please email us your thoughts at Texas talk at dot org.

We'll be back next month with a new guest.

We'll see them.