♪♪ ♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." WE ARE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> ISRAEL IS ON THE BRINK.

>> ISRAEL'S AND IRAN'S SHADOW WAR ERUPTS INTO THE OPEN.

I SPEAK TO FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL DANIEL KURTZE ABOUT WHAT COULD COME NEXT.

THEN.

>> USA!

USA!

USA.

>> TRUMP GOES TO TRIAL AS JURY SELECTION BEGINS.

LAW PROFESSOR FEEL CAT YELL JOINS ME ON THIS HISTORY-MAKING CASE.

>> PLUS.

>> IT'S HARD TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER, WE HAVE BECOME BETTER.

PEOPLE POWER.

A CONVERSATION WITH WALTER ISAACSON REVEALS WE ARE THE LEADERS WE'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR.

♪♪ ♪♪ AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY ROSALIND P.WALTER, BERNARD AND IRENE ARE SCHWARTZ, SUE AND EDWARD WAKE ENLIME, CHARLES ROSEN BLOOM.

HUGH AND PATRICIA EWEN COMMITTED TO MAKING COMMITMENTS INTO OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA J. ZUCKERBURG, INDIVIDUAL FUNDERS PROVIDED BY CONTRIBUTIONS AND BY OUR VIEWERS FROM PBS STATIONS LIKE YOU.

>> WELCOME, TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M CHRISTIAN AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

LEADERS FROM HERE IN THE U.K. AND THE USA URGE RESTRAINT AS ISRAEL MULLS ITS RESPONSE TO IRAN.

IES BIGGEST BACKER AMERICA SAYS DON'T DO IT, AND WE WON'T PARTICIPATE WHILE JORDAN ACCUSES ISRAEL OF USING THIS CONFRONTATION TO TAKE THE ATTENTION OFF GAZA.

A FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, IN FACT TWO, TELL THE CURRENT ONE TO LOOK AT THE WHOLE PICTURE EHUD BARA HAD H SAYS WE'RE STUCK IN GAZA AND HOSTAGES ARE TOO.

IF THE WAR WAS ABOUT ESTABLISHING DETERRENTS AFTER OCTOBER 7, SIX MONTHS AND TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DEATHS LATER WITH STARVATION MOUNTING AND MORE THAN 70% OF GAZA EITHER DESTROYED OR DAMAGED, IT DOES RAISE THE QUESTION.

IT IS THIS IS WHAT DETERRENCE IN GAZA LOOKS LIKE, WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO, QUOTE, EXTRACT A PRICE ON IRAN?

IRAN'S NON-SURPRISE DRONE AND MISSILE ATTACK HEAVILY TELEGRAPHED AND 99% INTERCEPTED BY ISRAEL AND ITS STRONGEST ALICE ALSO RAISES THE QUESTION OF HOW ISRAEL WOULD DO IN AN ALL-OUT WAR WITHOUT ALLIED PARTICIPATION.

ARE THERE ANY GOOD OPTIONS FOR THE UNITED STATES, DESPERATE TO PREVENT THAT REGION FROM DESCENDING INTO A MUCH WIDER WAR?

MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT KNOWS THE STAKES AND PLAYERS.

DANIELLE KURTZE HAS BEEN U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO EUROPE AND EGYPT, AND HE'S JOINING US NOW FROM WASHINGTON.

AMBASSADOR, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

OBVIOUSLY THE QUESTION ON EVERYBODY'S MIND, WILL ISRAEL RESPOND?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A RESPONSE.

THE QUESTION IS GOING TO BE THE TIMING AND THE SCOPE.

ISRAEL I THINK BELIEVES THAT THE ESCALATION OF IRAN'S ATTACK ON SATURDAY NIGHT, IT WOULD BE TOO MUCH TO LET IT GO UNPASS, NUMBER ONE, AND NUMBER TWO, IRAN ANNOUNCED WHEN IT DECLARED AN END OF ITS ATTACK THAT IT WOULD NOW ATTACK ISRAEL ANY TIME AN IRANIAN ASSET OR ALLY WAS ATTACKED WHICH MEANS THERE'S SOME NEW RULES OF THE GAME, AND I THINK ISRAEL WILL WANT TO ESTABLISH ITS OWN RULES WITH RESPONSE TO WHAT IRAN DID ON SATURDAY.

>> BUT YOU'RE JUST SAYING THAT IF ISRAEL DOES THAT, THEN IRAN WILL DO IT AGAIN, SO WHERE DOES THIS END?

>> WELL, WE DON'T KNOW, AND FRANKLY I THINK THAT'S THE MAJOR ISSUE THAT HAS TO BE TAKEN UP NOT ONLY IN THE ISRAELI CABINET AND THE IRANIAN CIRCLES BUT ALSO IN THE WEST, IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WE NEAR AN ESCALATORY SPIRAL IN WHICH THE ISRAELI ATTACK IN DAMASCUS WHICH KILLED SEVERAL REVOLUTIONARY GUARD AND OTHERS PROMPTED AN RESPONSE, AN ISRAELI RESPONSANCE AND WHO KNOWS IT WILL KEEP GO, AND US A INDICATED AT THE TOP OF THE SHOW THE WAR IS GAZA IS CERTAINLY NOT OVER.

THERE'S NOW NEW VIOLENCE IN THE WEST BANK.

SETTLERS RETALIATING FOR THE KILLING AN ISRAELI YOUNGSTER, SO THIS IS JUST A REGION THAT'S NOW IN A VERY EXPLOSIVE MODE.

>> I JUST WANT TO GET TO THE GAZA ISSUE BECAUSE THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF JORDAN MADE QUITE -- YOU KNOW, MADE A QUITE ON CNN TODAY WHEN HE SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS CONFRONTATION WAS, YOU KNOW, DESIGNED AS WELL TO TAKE THE ATTENTION OFF GAZA.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> LOOK.

THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER HAVE ALWAYS LIKED TO INVOKE SOME SORT OF CONDITION FRONTATION WITH IRAN.

NOW AS THE INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE IN ISRAEL TO STOP THE AGGRESSION IN GAZA CONTINUES INVOKING A FIGHT IN IRAN IS SOMETHING HE BELIEVES IS SOMETHING THAT COULD DID I LOUT THAT PRESSURE AND TAKE ATTENTION AWAY FROM GAZA AND FOCUS ON THIS NEW CONFRONTATION?

>> DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ANALYSIS?

CLEARLY ISRAEL HAS GOT SOME BREATHING ROOM.

THE TALK OF SUSPENDING WEAPONS, YOU KNOW, IF THERE WERE MORE HUMANITARIAN VIOLATIONS SEEMS TO BE SHELL-OF-ED.

>> WITH RESPECT TO THE FOREIGN MINISTER, I DO NOT THINK THAT ISRAEL ATTACKED THE IRANIAN FACILITY IN DAMASCUS AS SOME KIND OF DIVERSION OR OTHERWISE.

THESE GENERALS WERE INVOLVED IN THE TRAINING, ARMING, EQUIPPING AND ENCOURAGING ATTACKS ON ISRAEL FOR QUITE SOME TIME, NOT ONLY FROM SYRIA BUT ALSO FROM LEBANON, SO THEY HAVE BEEN TARGETS FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

WE ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WHILE GAZA HAS BEEN HAPPENING AND WHILE HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL HAVE BEEN TRADING BLOWS, THE IRGC HAS BEEN OPERATING IN SYRIA.

I DON'T THINK THERE WAS A DIVERSION.

IT WAS A QUOTE, UNQUOTE, OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE OUT SENIOR IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARD FIGURES AND NOW WE'LL SEE THE CONSEQUENCES.

THE QUESTION NOW, HOWEVER, IS HOW DOES THIS IMPACT WHAT ISRAEL DOES BOTH IN GAZA AND AS WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER AS WHAT IT DOES WITH RESPECT TO IRAN?

>> SO DO YOU THINK THAT THE UNITED STATES IS CORRECT IN TRYING TO DE-ESCALATE AND TRYING TO ADVISE THE SO-CALLED TAKE THE WIN WHICH THEY HAD ON SATURDAY NIGHT AND NOT TO ESCALATE, AND THE U.S. HAS ALSO SAID, AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HEARING, THAT IT WILL NOT PARTICIPATE?

DO YOU THINK THAT'S TRUE?

IF THERE IS TIT FOR TAT AND IT GETS BAD THAT THE U.S. WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN ANY OFFENSIVE ACTION AGAINST IRAN?

>> I THINK BOTH OF THOSE HAVE TO REALLY BE CALLED INTO QUESTION.

FIRST OF ALL, IT'S HARD TO ARGUE FOR DE-ESCALATION GIVEN THE SCOPE OF THE IRANIAN ATTACK.

YOU KNOW, HAD THEY LIMITED THEIR RESPONSE TO THE ACTION IN DAMASCUS TO A KIND OF ONE OFF SEND IN A FEW ROCKETS OR A FEW DRONES, TRY TO TAKE OUT A SPECIFIC FACILITY, THEN THE ARGUMENT COULD BE MADE THAT IT WAS A TIT FOR TAT AND THEN LET'S DE-ESCALATE, BUT SENDING IN 300 OBJECTS THAT WERE DESIGNED TO KILL AND TO DESTROY AND HAVE LEFT A YOUNG GIRL IN CRITICAL CONDITION WAS NOT A TIT FOR TAT WHICH MEANS IT WAS A MAJOR ESCALATION AND A MAJOR CHANGE IN THE RULES OF THE GAME.

ON THE SECOND ISSUE, IF ISRAEL DOES DECIDE TO DO SOMETHING THAT DOES LEAD TO A MORE SIGNIFICANT WAR, IT'S HARD TO SEE THE UNITED STATES STANDING ON THE SIDELINES.

FIRST OF ALL, WE DO PROVIDE AIR COVER AND OTHER DEFENSIVE MEASURES.

WE CONTINUE TO PROVIDE WEAPON, AND I THINK IT'S PROBABLY NOT REALISTIC TO SAY THAT WE WOULD STAND BY WHILE THERE WAS A WAR INVOLVING ISRAEL IN IRAN.

>> SO DO YOU THINK THE U.S. IS BEING DRAGGED INTO A WAR THAT IT DOESN'T WANT?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT'S FOR SURE.

THE UNITED STATES CERTAINLY DOES NOT WANT TO SEE A WAR.

IT WOULD LIKE TO SEE A DE-ESCALATION.

IT WOULD LIKE TO SEE BOTH ISRAEL AND IRAN TAKE A DEEP BREATH, STEP BACK, GIVE SOME CONSIDERATION TO NEXT STEPS WHILE WE FOCUS ON TRYING TO END THE WAR IN GAZA WITH THE CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE RELEASE, BUT WE'RE NOT REALLY IN CONTROL OF THE SITUATION, AND THE DEGREE OF AMERICAN INFLUENCE IS LIMITED BY THE FACT THAT THE ADMINISTRATION SIMPLY DOES NOT WANT TO LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF ARMS AND THE KIND OF ARMS THAT WE'RE PROVIDING TO ISRAEL IS AND SO AS LONG AS WE HAVE THOSE TWO CONSTRAINTS, WE'RE REALLY IN A WATCHING AND HOPEFUL MODE, BUT THAT'S NOT REALLY GOING TO BE DISPOSITIVE IN TERMS OF WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.

>> AS YOU SAY, HOPE IS NOT A POLICY OBVIOUSLY, BUT SO DO YOU THINK THEN THAT THE U.S. SHOULD NOT BE SENDING THESE WEAPONS?

OBVIOUSLY THERE'S BEEN A HUGE, YOU KNOW, BACKLASH TO U.S. PROVIDING THE WEAPONS THAT KILLING CIVILIANS IN GAZA.

DID YOU THINK THAT THE U.S. SHOULD RECONSIDER, AND WHO IS -- YOU KNOW, YOU REMEMBER A WHILE AGO IT WAS PUBLISHED OVER A DIFFERENT ISSUE, BUT PRESIDENT BIDEN -- SORRY, PRESIDENT CLINTON IN THE '90s SAID, YOU KNOW, APPARENTLY TO HIS -- I THINK IT WAS BENJAMIN NETANYAHU WHO IS THE EXPLETIVE SUPERPOWER HERE, SO I GUESS THE YES HERE IS THE U.S.

IN THE DRIVING SEAT, OR IS ISRAEL?

>> WELL, CLEARLY THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL THINKS THAT HE ALONE IS IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT, AND HE HAS BELIEVED THAT EVER SINCE HE CAME INTO OFFICE IN THE MID-1990s.

HE BELIEVES THAT HE UNDERSTANDS AMERICA BETTER THAN OUR PRESIDENTS, AND HE BELIEVES THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY HE CAN LARGELY CONTROL WHAT IT IS THAT WITH DO OR DON'T DO.

ON THE QUESTION OF ARMS, THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ASSURING ISRAEL THE CAPABILITY TO DEFEND ITSELF WHICH WE HELPED TO DO ON SATURDAY NIGHT, BOTH ACTIVELY AND WITH THE KIND OF SUPPORT THAT WE'VE GIVEN TO IRON DOME AND DAVID SLING AND THE OTHER AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS THAT ISRAEL HAS IN PLACE, AND THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS AND PROVIDING THE KIND OF MAJOR OFFENSIVE WEAPONRY THAT'S BEEN USED IN A MANNER THAT'S LED TO A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF CIVILIANS CASUALTIES, AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE DEBATE RIGHT NOW IS IN WASHINGTON.

THERE'S A GROWING NUMBER OF EVEN OF DEMOCRATIC SENATORS WHO ARE ARGUING FOR SOME KIND OF CURBS ALTHOUGH I WOULD ASSUME THAT THEY ARE NOT LOOKING ON CURBS ON THE DEFENSIVE WEAPONS BUT RATHER TO SAY TO ISRAEL YOU NEED TO LIMIT SOME OF YOUR OFFENSIVE OPERATIONS SO AS TO MINIMIZE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

>> I MEAN, YOU MAY BE AWARE, BUT THERE'S, YOU KNOW, A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON SOCIAL MEDIA POINTING OUT THAT VERY CONTRADICTION THAT WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT, THAT THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES WERE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, INTERCEPT AND PROTECT ISRAELI CIVILIANS FROM IRAN ON SATURDAY NIGHT, BUT THEY SIMPLY WILL NOT DO THAT FOR PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, THUS RAISING THE ETERNAL DOUBLE STANDARD QUESTION AND WHETHER THEY BELIEVE PALESTINIANS ARE PEOPLE AFTER ALL, SO THIS IS CAUSING A LOT OF NEGATIVITY TOWARDS AMERICA.

IT'S BECOME VIEWED AS SIDING, YOU KNOW, IN THE GAZA CASE WITH THE WRONG SIDE.

I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU AND FOR OUR VIEWERS, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU'LL BE ABLE TO SEE IT, AMBASSADOR, BUT IT IS A PICTURE IN THE KAMAL ADWAN HOSPITAL, A PICTURE OF HER MOTHER WHO IS WITH HER EMACIATED DAUGHTER ARE AND WHAT SHE'S DOING SHOWING THE EUROPEAN DOCTOR THAT TOOK THIS THE PICTURES OF HER DAUGHTER HAPPY AND, YOU KNOW, SORT OF MOVING AROUND AND WELL-FED ON A VIDEO AND SHOWING THEM NEXT TO HER EMACIATED REAL FRAME IN THE HOSPITAL THERE.

I MEAN, THIS IS REALLY BAD, THIS STAR VAGUE.

I MEAN, EVEN THE UNITED STATES, USAID HAS SAID FAMINE IS IN THERE NOW.

IT'S NOT LOOMING.

IT'S NOT STALKING.

IT'S THERE.

WHAT MUST THE U.S. DO AND ITS ALLIES TO BRING AN END TO THIS?

I MEAN, DO YOU SEE -- THERE SEEMS TO BE NO PROGRESS TO CEASE-FIRE.

ISRAEL PROMISES TO SEND IN AID AND, YOU KNOW, DOES AFTER A STIFF CALL FROM BIDEN, BUT IS IT REGULAR DELIVERY?

WHAT -- WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO STOP THIS?

>> EL WITH, WE SHOWED AFTER THE ATTACK ON THE CONVOY OF THE WORLD KITCHEN WHEN ISRAEL UNDERSTOOD HOW SERIOUS WE WERE WITH RESPECT TO THE PROVISION OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE THEY CHANGED SOME OF THEIR POLICIES.

I THINK WE NEED TO SUSTAIN THAT KIND OF SERIOUSNESS.

THE VIDEO YOU SHOWED IS HEARTBREAKING, BUT HEARTBREAKING IS NOT A POLICY EITHER.

SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE, AND THERE ARE CAPACITIES IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT MUCH, MUCH MORE FOOD AND WATER AND HEALTH SUPPLIES CAN GET INTO GAZA UNIMPEDED, SO THERE HAS TO BE A SERIOUSNESS OF PURPOSE HERE THAT WE SHOWED JUST A WEEK OR TWO AGO THAT'S SUSTAINABLE, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION REALLY NEEDS TO FOCUS ON, BUT EVEN SO, THERE ARE OTHER COULDN'T DIGSES IN THE POLICIES BECAUSE AS MUCH AS WE'RE TRYING TO RESTRAIN ISRAEL'S OPERATIONS, WE ALSO WANT TO SEE HAMAS DESTROYED, AND YOU HAVE THESE TWO POLAR OPPOSITE POSSIBILITIES AT PLAY, AND THE THIRD THAT'S AT PLAY IS YOU'VE GOT BILL BURNINGS OUR CIA DIRECTOR, OUT THERE ALMOST EVERY WEEK TRYING TO NEGOTIATE A HOSTAGE/PRISONER EXCHANGE SO IT'S NOT AN EASY COURSE TO NAVIGATE FOR U.S.

POLICY-MAKERS.

>> LET ME GO BACK TO THIS DUAL THING, ISRAEL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE ISRAEL PAY FOR WHAT HAPPENED AND YOU'VE GOT THE UNITED STATES WHO WANT THE GADSAN CITIZENS TO HAVE TO STOP PAYING FOR WHAT WENT ON ON OCTOBER 7th AND THEN NOW BENNY GANTZ, A MEMBER OF THE ISRAELI WAR CABINET, WHO TALKED ABOUT I GUESS TRYING TO MOVE FORWARD AND GAINING SUPPORT FOR ANY ACTION AGAINST IRAN.

>> IN THE FACE OF THE IRANIAN THREAT, WE WILL BUILD A REGIONAL COALITION AND EXACT THE PRICE FROM IRAN IN THE FASHION AND TIMING THAT IS RIGHT FOR US, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY FACED WITH THE DESIRE OF OUR ENEMIES TO HARM US, WE WILL CONTINUE TO UKNIT AND BECOME STRONGER.

>> SO DESCRIBE THE REGIONAL COALITION.

I MEAN, HE MEANS THE ARAB STATES PRESUMABLY.

>> UNDER LEADERSHIP COMMAND IT'S BEEN DEVISING AN AIR DEFENSE QUITE EFFECTIVE ON SATURDAY NIGHT WITH A VARIETY OF PLAYERS ACTING OUT DIFFERENT ROLES AND ENSURING THAT VIRTUALLY NONE OF THE DRONES AND CRUISE MISSILES AND BALLISTIC MISSILES GOT THROUGH.

NOW, IRAN TELEGRAPHED ITS PUNCH, AND SO THERE WERE A NUMBER OF HOURS OF PREPARATION THAT WERE AVAILABLE.

THAT MAY NOT BE THE CASE THE NEXT TIME AROUND, AND IT'S NOT SURE, AND I THINK THE PROBLEM WITH THE ARGUMENT THAT ISRAEL IS GOING TO TRY TO BUILD A REGIONAL COALITION IS THAT I'M NOT SURE ISRAEL IS GOING TO FIND PARTNERS IF IT DOES TAKE THE OFFENSIVE, AND THAT'S WHY EVEN IF ISRAEL FEELS THAT IT HAS TO RESPOND FOR DETERRENT PURPOSES, IT NEEDS TO THINK VERY HARD AND VERY LONG BEFORE GIVING UP THE POSSIBILITY OF THIS REGIONAL AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM THAT HAS WORKED SO WELL, SO THERE ARE A VARIETY OF CHALLENGES IN THE ISRAELI WAR CABINET, NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS TO MAINTAIN THE COALITION THAT CURRENTLY EXISTS THAT MIGHT BE LOST SHOULD IT TAKE THE OFFENSIVE.

>> MM-HMM, AND I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU A LAST QUESTION ABOUT THE SCALE OF WHAT ISRAEL MIGHT DO IN THE U.S.

POSITION.

SO IN OCTOBER AS WE REMEMBER BIDEN IMMEDIATELY VISITED ISRAEL AFTER THE HORROR OF OCTOBER 7, BUT HE ALSO SAID I CAUTION WHILE I FEEL THE RAGE DON'T BE CONSUMED BY IT.

AFTER 9/11 WE WREN RAGED IN THE UNITED STATES, WE SOUGHT JUSTICE AND GOT JUSTICE.

WE ALSO MADE MISTAKES, SO THAT'S WHAT BIDEN SAID.

NOW, IN THE WAKE OF NEWS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE THAT BIDDEN SAID HE WOULD NOT PARTICIPATE IN AN OFFENSIVE AGAINST IRAN, THIS IS WHAT JOHN BOLTEN SAID, YOU KNOW, FORMER U.N.

AMBASSADOR AND ADVISER TO TRUMP AND ALSO GEORGE W. BUSH.

>> I WILL ALSO TELL YOU THIS.

IF JOE BIDEN IS BEING URGED NOT TO RETALIATE AN ALL HE IS AN EMBARRASSMENT TO THE UNITED STATES.

THIS IS AN AMERICAN INTEREST TO MAKE SURE THAT IRAN WHICH IS IS THE PRINCIPAL THREAT TO INTERNATIONAL PEACE AND SECURITY IN THE REGION IS AT A MINIMUM PUT IN ITS PLACE, TO SPARE ISRAEL, TO SPARE THE GULF ARABS, TO SPARE US FROM THE THREAT THAT THEY POSE.

>> AND I THINK HE WENT ON TO SUGGEST TARGETS.

YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY PRESSURED NOW.

YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF REPUBLICANS CALLING FOR VERY STIFF ACTIONS.

IT REMINDS ME WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LEAD-UP TO THE 2003 U.S. WAR AGAINST IRAQ.

THERE WAS NOTHING GOOD THAT CAME OUT OF THAT.

IN FACT, THAT WAR IS WHAT OFFERED IRAQ TO THE IRANIANS, WHERE THEY HAD THEIR BASES OPENLY NOW CHALLENGING THE UNITED STATES.

SO WHAT DOES THE ADMINISTRATION DO TO WARD OFF THAT KIND OF -- THAT KIND OF SENTIMENT IN JOHN BOLTEN?

>> WELL, THE ADMINISTRATION TO EDUCATE THE ISRAELIS TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE MADE A LOT OF MISTAKES.

WE MADE MISTAKES IN AFGHANISTAN AND IT COST US 20 YEARS AND THOUSANDS OF CASUALTIES.

WE MADE A LOT OF MISTAKES IN IRAQ GOING INTO IRAQ IN THE FIRST PLACE WAS A STRATEGIC ERROR OF IMMENSE PROPORTIONS, AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW CALLING FOR ESCALATION LIKE JOHN BOLTON WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE MISTAKES, SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ISRAEL MIGHT DO IS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE EDUCATIONAL NATURE OF WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO DO.

YOU ARE REMEMBER, CHRISTIANE, THAT WE SENT GENERAL McKENZIE TO ISRAEL VERY EARLY ON AFTER OCTOBER 7 TO TALK ABOUT HOW WE DEALT WITH URBAN WARFARE AND THE MISTAKES THAT WE MADE, AND IT WOULD REALLY BEHOOVE ISRAEL TO ASSIMILATE THOSE LESSONS AND NOT TO REPEAT OR CREATE ITS OWN MISTAKES IN RESPONDING TO IRAQ OR IN DEALING IN THE FUTURE WITH GAZA.

>> WHOA.

I DON'T KNOW ADVICE WAS TAKEN IN GAZA, BUT ANYWAY, POINT TAKEN.

AMBASSADOR KURTZE, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US FOR YOUR UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE.

>>> HISTORY OF A DIFFERENT KIND IN NEW YORK TODAY, DONALD TRUMP, A FORMER PRESIDENT RUNNING FOR THE SAME JOB AGAIN APPEARS IN COURT FOR HIS CRIMINAL TRIAL.

JURY SELECTION STARTS TODAY, AND THIS CASE CHARGES TRUMP WITH 34 FELONY COUNTS OF FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS, ACCUSED OF REIMBURSING HIS FORMER FIXER MICHAEL COHEN FOR HUSH MONEY PAYMENTS TO THE ADULT FILM STAR STORMY DANIELS OVERIN ALLEGED AFFAIR.

IT'S THE FIRST OF FOUR CRIMINAL CASES OF TRUMP TO GO TO DRILL AND MIGHT BE ONLY ONE HE FACES BEFORE THE ELECTION.

HE DENIES ALL CHARGES.

SO LET'S GO TO NEAL CAT YELL, LAW PROFESSOR AND FORMER ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL JOINING ME FROM PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA.

WELCOME, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SO ALREADY WE'RE HEARING THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IS BEING TOLD IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, YOU KNOW, TO STOP TWEETING, TO STOP BASICALLY BEHAVING IN A WAY THAT THE COURT DOESN'T SANCTION AND BEHAVE FACE HE WERE FACING A CRIMINAL TRIAL.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE HEARING SO FAR?

>> YES, CHRISTIANE, I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

I MEAN, IN THE COMING DAYS DONALD TRUMP WILL HAVE TO FACE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HE HAS FEARED THE MOST WHICH IS A JURY OF HIS PEERS WITH A CRIMINAL TRIAL, WITH REGULAR PROCESSES, AND SO THIS IS GOING TO BE UNLIKE WHAT WE'VE SEEN PLAYING OUT OVER THE LAST YEAR IN CIVIL TRIALS GOING ON IN NEW YORK, FOR EXAMPLE, BROUGHT BY JEAN CARROLL, WITH THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL.

THE RULES HERE ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

YOU CAN'T DECIDE TO SHOW UP OR NOT SHOW UP AT THE LAST MINUTE.

HE'S GOT TO BE THROUGHOUT THE TRIAL.

HE CAN'T WALTZ IN AND OUT OF THE COURTROOM AS HE PLEASES.

HE CAN'T AS YOU SAY A MOMENT AGO MUTTER ABOUT THE WITNESSES DURING THE TRIAL.

THE JUDGE HAS IMPOSED A STRICT GAG ORDER.

HE ALREADY LOOKS LIKE HE VIOLATED IT OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS, AND THE PROSECUTORS JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO ASKED THE JUDGE FOR SANCTIONS BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP VIOLATED THE GAG ORDER.

AND SO I SUSPECT WE'RE GOING TO SEE -- HEAR MORE ABOUT THAT AND ABOUT TRUMP'S RESTRICTIONS.

HE'S CLAIMING IT'S GAGGING HIS FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, AND THE JUDGE AND THE PROSECUTOR SO FAR HAVE SAID, NO, WE'RE JUST TREATING YOU LIKE EVERY OTHER CRIMINAL DEFENDANT IN THE COUNTRY.

>> SO THAT BRINGS ME TO WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THIS DAY WHICH IS THE FIRST DAY OF JURY SELECTION.

LIKE ANY CRIMINAL DEFENDANT IN THE COUNTRY THEY HAVE A RIGHT IT A FREE, FAIR TRIAL BY A JURY OF THEIR PEERS.

IS SUCH A THING EVEN REMOTELY POSSIBLE WHEN -- WHEN EVERYBODY KNOWS TRUMP AND EVERYBODY PRESUMABLY KNOWS ALL THESE STORIES?

>> 100% POSSIBLE.

I WAS BRIEF LEDGED OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS TO SERVE OF AS SPECIAL PROSECUTOR IN THE MURDER OF DEREK CHAUVIN, THE TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN WHO MURDERED GEORGE FRIDAY AND, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THAT WAS A CASE THAT EVERYONE KNEW IN MINNESOTA, IN MINNEAPOLIS WHERE THE TRIAL TOOK PLACE AND DEREK CHAUVIN TRIED TO MOVE THE TRIAL OR TO DELAY THE TRIAL SAYING HE COULDN'T GET A FAIR TRIAL GIVEN THE NOTORIETY SURROUNDING HIS ACTIONS.

THE JUDGE REJECTED THAT.

THERE WAS A LONG PROCESS OF WHAT WE CALL VOIR DIRE WHICH IS EXAMINING EACH POTENTIAL JUROR FOR BIAS, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO GET HERE, AND I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY, YOU KNOW, WOULD NOT BE REMARKABLE AT ALL TO HAVE A JURY SEATED IN THIS CASE.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARE TOLD BY A JUDGE HERE ARE THE GROUND RULES.

YOU'VE GOT TO PUT YOUR PRE-ESTABLISHED NOTIONS ASIDE AND LISTEN TO THE EVIDENCE.

THEY CAN ABSOLUTELY DO THAT.

>> CAN WE JUST TALK ABOUT THE EVIDENCE AND WHAT IT IS.

BASICALLY IN GENERAL I UNDERSTAND THAT PAYING HUSH MONEY IS NOT NECESSARILY A CRIME.

YOU KNOW, WHY HAS THIS BECOME A CRIMINAL CASE AND A FELONY?

>> BECAUSE IT'S NOT ACTUALLY, CHRISTIANE, ABOUT HUSH MONEY PER SE.

IT'S ABOUT WHAT HE DID TO ORDER THAT TO TAKE PLACE.

SO IF YOU THINK -- I KNOW FOR PARTICULARLY INTERNATIONAL VIEWERS THE AMERICAN -- THE AMERICAN CAMPAIGN FINANCE SYSTEM IS ALREADY BIZARRE.

THERE'S BILLIONS OF DOLLARS GOING INTO IT AND TO ELECTIONS WHICH, OF COURSE, DOESN'T HAPPEN IN THE U.K. OR OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT THE ONE THING THAT AMERICAN SYSTEM HAS DONE SAY OKAY WE'LL ALLOW POTENTIALLY UNLIMITED MONIES TO COME IN IN TERMS OF SOFT DOLLAR CONTRIBUTIONS AND THE LIKE, BUT THE ONE THING WE'RE GOING TO DO IS INSIST ON SOME DISCLOSURE SO WE KNOW WHERE THE MONEY IS COMING FROM.

HERE WHAT HAPPENED IS DONALD TRUMP IN OCTOBER OF 2016 RIGHT BEFORE THE ELECTION, HE HAD THAT INCIDENT INVOLVING AN "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD" TAPE IN WHICH HE SAID ALL SORTS OF GROTESQUE STUFF ABOUT WOMEN, AND THEN JUST A FEW DAYS LATER THIS STORY ABOUT HIM AND PORN ACTRESS STORMY DANIELS WAS ABOUT TO COME OUT SO WHAT HE DIDN'T HE DIDN'T JUST DIRECT HUSH MONEY, HE DIRECTED HIS LAWYER TO PAY THE HUSH MONEY AND THEN TO TRY TO CREATE ESSENTIALLY RECEIPTS TO CLAIM THAT THIS WAS LEGITIMATE LEGAL SERVICES, WHICH, OF COURSE, IT'S NOT.

INDEED, HE WENT SO FAR AS TO GROSS UP HIS LAWYER MICHAEL COHEN'S MONEY SO IT WAS THE MONEY FOR THE PAYOFF AND ALSO FOR THE TAX THAT MICHAEL COHEN WOULD HAVE TO PAY WHEN HE CLAIMED THAT THIS WAS A LEGITIMATE ATTORNEY/CLIENT EXPENSE, SO, YOU KNOW, IT DOES LOOK LIKE THIS WAS DONE WITH KNOWLEDGE AND DONE TO EVADE WHAT THE HEART OF THE AMERICAN CAMPAIGN FINANCE SYSTEM IS ABOUT, MAKING SURE THAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC KNOWS WHO OWES WHAT TO WHOM BEFORE AN ELECTION.

HERE DONALD TRUMP OWED, YOU KNOW, A VERY -- A LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY TO HIS LAWYER, NOT BECAUSE HIS LAWYER DID LEGAL SERVICES BUT BECAUSE HIS LAWYER WAS PAYING OFF A PORN STAR TO NOT GO PUBLIC IN THE DAYS BEFORE THE 2016 ELECTION.

THAT'S A HUGELY SIGNIFICANT CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION AND ONE THAT WAS HIDDEN ENTIRELY FROM THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

>> SO I SEE A CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION, SO WHEN PEOPLE USE ALL THESE DIFFERENT TERMOLOGIES LIKE A HUSH MONEY CASE, A BUSINESS FRAUD CASE, AN ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE, IS IT ALL OF THE ABOVE, OR IS IT MAINLY THE ELECTION INTERFERENCE?

>> IT'S ALL OF THE ABOVE, AND WHAT I THINK TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO, AND IT'S SIMILAR TO WHAT BILL CLINTON DID BACK IN 1978 IS PRETEND OH, THIS IS ABOUT SEX.

THIS IS JUST ABOUT THAT AND NOTHING ELSE, AND -- AND, YOU KNOW, REGARDLESS OF WHAT ONE THINGS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH CLINTON, HERE THIS IS INVOLVING REALLY NOT JUST SOMETHING THAT IS, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO HIDE SOMETHING ABOUT STORMY DANIELS BUT SOMETHING TO TRY TO HIDE SOMETHING FROM THE AMERICAN PUBLIC RIGHT BEFORE AN ELECTION, AND, YOU KNOW, IF THE SHOE WERE ON THE OTHER FOOT AND THAT WERE BIDEN OR SOMEONE ELSE WHO WAS TAKING THESE -- WHO WAS, YOU KNOW, ENGAGED IN THESE KINDS OF PAYOOFS, OF COURSE, THE OTHER SIDE, THE REPUBLICANS WOULD HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY ABOUT THIS, THIS IS AN OBVIOUS LAW ENFORCEMENT MATTER.

>> WELL, OKAY.

SO ALSO LET'S JUST READ THE PROSECUTOR IN QUESTION, ALVIN BRAGG, HAS SAID TO THE "NEW YORK TIMES," THE CASE IS NOT -- THE CORE OF IS NOT MONEY FOR SEX, IT'S ABOUT CONSPIREING TO CORRUPT A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND THEN LYING IN NEW YORK BUSINESS RECORDS TO COVER IT UP, SO THAT'S ESSENTIALLY WHAT YOU JUST EXPLAINED TO US.

THE -- THE THING THOUGH, IS AND I WONDER WHETHER THERE'S, YOU KNOW -- WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT IT.

WILL PEOPLE TRUST THE INSTITUTION?

YES, YOU COULD FIND THE 12 JURORS, BUT WILL HIS BASE, PROBABLY NOT, BUT WILL GENERALLY PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT IT IS NOT AS TRUMP SAID A WITCH HUNT OR A DISGRACE AGAINST AMERICA OR A TRIAL OF AMERICA, YOU KNOW, ASSOCIATING HIMSELF WITH THE STATE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE PUBLIC MIGHT THINK AFTER ANY KIND OF SENTENCE, CONVICTION OR RATHER JUDGMENT IS THE WORD I'M TRYING TO SAY?

>> CHRISTIANE I THINK ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT THE AMERICAN SYSTEM IS SO FAR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TRUST THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

IT'S INEFFICIENT TO BE SURE.

IT'S TAKEN YEARS FOR THIS CASE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO GET TO TRIAL AND DEFENDANTS LIKE DONALD TRUMP HAVE SO MANY DIFFERENT RIGHTS AT ISSUE AND WAYS TO DELAY THE TRIALS AND THE LIKE AND TRUMP HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN THE OTHER TRIALS AS YOU SAID AT THE OUTSET IN DOING THAT.

BUT ONCE YOU HAVE A LEGITIMATE PROCESS THAT'S BEGUN UNDER THE RULES OF EVIDENCE WITH FORMALITY AND STRICT PREDURES THAT GOVERN BOTH SIDES, THE OUTCOME IS SOMETHING I DO THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE REALLY DOES RESPECT, AND, AGAIN, I'D GO BACK TO THE DEREK CHAUVIN CASE AS A GOOD EXAMPLE BEFORE THE TRIAL BEGAN, PEOPLE'S PASSIONS WERE AT SUCH LOGGERHEADS ABOUT IT, BUT DAY AFTER DAY WHEN THE EVIDENCE CAME IN, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE AMERICAN PUBLIC DEVELOPED A CERTAIN FEELING ABOUT IT, AND WHEN HE WAS CONVICTED THERE WERE NO RIOTS.

THERE WERE NO MAJOR PROTESTS AND THE LIKE BECAUSE I THINK THE AMERICAN PUBLIC UNDERSTOOD DEREK CHAUVIN HAD HIS PROCESSES AND DAY IN COURT AND WAS FOUND GUILT AND IF KRUMP WAS FOUND GUILTY THE POLLUTION HAVE TO PROVE TO ALL 12 MEMBERS OF THE JURY, ONE OF THEM CAN HOLD OUT AND SAY I'M NOT CONVICTING AND HE CAN'T BE CONVICTED, BUT THEY HAVE TO HAVE ALL 12 AND PROVE IT BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT WHICH IS THE HIGHEST STANDARD OF PROOF IN THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM SO IF THE PROSECUTORS CAN DO THAT FOR ALL 12, I DO THINK THAT WILL GIVE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC A LOT OF CONFIDENCE IN THE OUTCOME HERE.

>> LET ME JUST READ THIS POLL TO YOU, THE LATEST ONE IS APRIL 10, ABOUT HOW PEOPLE SEE THIS -- THESE CASES.

SO PER REUTERS AND IPSOS, 64% OF VOTERS OVERALL SAY THE CHARGES IN THIS CASE ARE SERIOUS.

24% OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS SAY THEY WOULD NOT VOTE FOR TRUMP IF HE WERE CONVICTED TO A FELONY.

IT'S KIND OF GOING TO THE HEART OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, PEOPLE'S VIEW OF THE LAW.

DO YOU HAVE A VIEW ON POLITICS ON WHETHER IT'S GOD OR BAD FOR HIM?

>> I DON'T.

THAT'S REALLY OUTSIDE OF MY LANE AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE BEEN PLEASED ABOUT IS THE PROSECUTOR HERE, WAS THE PROSECUTOR, JACK SMITH, THE FEDERAL JACK PROSECUTOR, HAVE DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB OF TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY THIS IS A CASE JUST ABOUT THE LAW AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER THE DEFENDANT IS NAMED TRUMP OR BIDEN OR ANYONE ELSE.

WHEN SOMEONE DOES THESE KINDS OF THINGS, THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES.

I MEAN, THE MOST FOUNDATIONAL PRINCIPLE IN THE AMERICAN LEGAL SYSTEM NO PERSON IS ABOVE THE LAW.

THE LAW APPLIES TO ALL OF US, AND DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN TRYING TO TEST THAT PRINCIPLE REPEATEDLY, SO MUCH SO, CHRISTIANE NEXT WEEK HIS LAWYERS ARE GOING TO SHOW UP AT THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT AND TAKE THE ASTONISHING POSITION THAT WHEN THE PRESIDENT DOES SOMETHING, IT'S NOT ILLEGAL.

THAT INCLUDES EVEN ORDERING THE MURDER OF HIS POLITICAL OPPONENT.

THAT'S JUST CRAZY TOWN.

THAT IS NOT THE AMERICAN LEGAL SYSTEM.

IT WASN'T EVEN THE BRITISH LEGAL SYSTEM BEFORE WE SEPARATED FROM -- FROM BRITAIN, YOU KNOW, AND SO I DON'T THINK THAT THAT ARGUMENT IS GOING ANYWHERE, AND I SUSPECT AT THE END OF THE DAY THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT WILL REAFFIRM THE PRINCIPLE NO, ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW, AND THEN IT WILL BE UP TO THESE INDIVIDUAL JURIES TO DECIDE DID DONALD TRUMP BREAK THAT LAW?

>> NOW, IN THE MEANTIME, AGAIN, DONALD TRUMP'S BEHAVIOR ON HIS -- ON HIS, YOU KNOW, THING, TRUTH SOCIAL AND IN COURT AND ET CETERA, SO HE HAS BEEN DENIGRATING MICHAEL COHEN WHO WILL BE A WITNESS AND YOU EXPLAIN THAT HE'S THE ONE WHO TRUMP ASKED TO PAY THE HUSH MONEY.

HE DID LIE IN PUBLIC ABOUT ALL OF THIS, AND TRUMP IS SAYING THAT THIS IS A SLEAZEBAG LIAR AND STORMY DANIELS IS A SLEAZEBAG AND THEY WILL NEVERIN CREDIBLE IN COURT.

WHAT ARE THE WEAKNESSES DO YOU BELIEVE OF THE WITNESSES?

>> YEAH, THERE ARE CERTAINLY WEAKNESSES.

MICHAEL COHEN IS AN ADMITTED FELON.

HE WENT TO JAIL FOR THESE EXACT CRIMES WITH DONALD TRUMP, AND SO YOU CAN EXPECT TRUMP TO TRY TO STAY AND SAY, YOU KNOW, COHEN HAS SOMETHING AGAINST TRUMP BECAUSE OF ALL OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO HIM.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK THE PROSECUTORS, AND WE SAW THIS ALREADY TODAY IN THE PROCEEDINGS, CHRISTIANE, HAVE STARRED TO BUILD A CASE SHOWING OTHER EVIDENCE IN THAT MICHAEL COHEN'S TESTIMONY WILL BE CORROBORATIVE.

FOR EXAMPLE, TODAY THE JUDGE ALLOWED EVIDENCE TO BE GIVEN ABOUT KATHY McDOUGAL, ANOTHER WOMAN WHO DONALD TRUMP ALLEGEDLY PAID OFF, SO THAT EVIDENCE IS GOING TO COME BEFORE THE JURY.

THE JUDGE DID SAY THE PROSECUTION IS NOT ALLOWED TO SAY THAT DONALD TRUMP'S WIFE AT THE TIME MELANIA TRUMP WAS PREGNANT, THAT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN PREJUDICIAL TO HEAR THAT PARTICULAR FACT, BUT TO HEAR THE REST OF IT -- WAS ADMITTED BY THE JUDGE, AND IT IS QUITE AN ASTOUNDING THING, CHRISTIANE, TO THINK THAT THE JUDGE IS SAYING HEAR DONALD TRUMP'S OWN WORDS ABOUT HIS WIFE BEING PREGNANT, THINGS LIKE THAT, CAN'T BE ADMITTED BECAUSE HIS OWN WORDS WOULD BE TOO PREJUDICIAL AGAINST THE COURT AGAINST HIM.

>> HE HAS SOME VERY PROMNENT SUCCESS ON HIS TEAM.

THERE WAS A PROFILE IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES," A FORMER DEMOCRAT, ANYWAY.

HE'S SEEMED TO BE, YOU KNOW, A PRETTY GOOD LAWYER AND TRUMP TRUSTS HIM, AND TRUMP'S DELAY, DELAY STRATEGY SEEMS TO HAVE PAID OFF FOR HIM.

MAYBE NOT IN THIS CASE, BUT IN ALL THE OTHERS BECAUSE THERE MAY OR MAY NOT, PROBABLY NOT, COME TO TRIAL ANY TIME SOON OR BE CONCLUDED ANY TIME SOON.

TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH.

SO I'M PLEASED TO SEE HE DOES HAVE SOME LAWYERS WHO ARE DEFENDING HIM ABLY IN THIS NEW YORK CASE.

I THINK WE ALL WANT THAT.

THE SYSTEM WANTS THAT.

THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WANTS THAT AND THE LIKE, AND THOSE LAWYERS HAVE BEEN PARTICULARLY SUCCESSFUL IN DELAYING THOSE OTHER CASED.

FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, I SERVED AS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

I CAN TELL YOU ANYONE WHO IS ALLEGED TO HAVE TAKEN THE HUNDREDS OF PAGES OF STUFF THAT DONALD TRUMP TOOK AND STORED AT HIS GOLF CLUB, THAT PERSON WOULD BE IN JAIL EVERY DAY OF EVERY WEEK AND THAT TRIAL WOULD HAVE HAPPENED BY NOW, AND TRUMP'S LAWYERS IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE JUDGE THERE, JUDGE CANNON, HAVE MANAGED TO SLOW WHAT IS AN EASY OPEN AND SHUT CASE DOWN HOPELESSLY, AND TRUMP'S SHOWN THAT IF HE CAN WIN IN NOVEMBER, HE CAN ORDER THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO JUST DROP THE PROSECUTION.

YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO GET INTO ANY FANCY CONDITIONSTUTIONAL LAW QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER A PRESIDENT CAN PARDON HIMSELF OR THINGS LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW.

THE PRESIDENT IS IN CONTROL OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND HE CAN ORDER THAT PROSECUTION DROPPED.

>> OKAY.

>> THAT MIGHT BE ALSO TRUE FOR THE STATE PROSECUTION IN JAPAN.

-- IN GEORGIA.

>> THIS IS REALLY, REALLY ASTONISHING WITH A FORMER PRESIDENT IN COURT FACING THIS TRUDGE.

AMAZING.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, AND WE HOPE TO BRING YOU BACK TO HELP US THROUGH, YOU KNOW, AS THIS PROCEEDS.

>>> NOW WITH TRUST IN LEADERSHIP AND DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS FALTERING AROUND THE WORLD, "NEW YORK TIMES" BEST-SELLING AUTHOR AND PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDIES EDDIE GLORD JUNIOR DISCUSSES WITH WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HOW WE CAN LEARN FROM HISTORY.

>> THANK YOU AND WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IT'S GOING TO BE WITH YOU, WALT.

>> SO YOU'VE GOT THIS NEW BOOK OUT CALLED "WE'RE THE LEADERS WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR," AND IT'S A COLLECTION OF YOUR 2011 DUBOIS LECTURES AT HARVARD.

TELL ME WHY YOU WENT BACK AFTER A DOZEN YEARS TO LOOK AT THESE LECTURES AGAIN?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S ALWAYS A DELIGHT TO BE IN CONVERSATION WITH YOU.

IT WAS AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE SENSE OF THE MOMENT, TO KIND OF SEE WHERE WE'VE BEEN AND WHERE WE'VE COME.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I GAVE THESE LECTURES MICHAEL BROWN WAS STILL ALIVE.

GEORGE FLOYD HADN'T MOVED FROM HOUSTON TO MINNEAPOLIS.

SANDRA BLAND WAS STILL BLOGGING, KNOW, AND I WAS GROWING IN SO MANY WAYS AS AN INTELLECT YASHLGS AS A WRITER, AND SO I WANTED TO IN SOME WAYS FIGURE OUT, WALTER, MY JOURNEY.

I WANTED TO PICK UP THE PIECES BECAUSE IN SOME WAYS THE POLITICS OF THE MOMENT, COVID, I FELT LIKE I HAD BEEN BROKEN IN TWO SO I HAD TO RIGHT MYSELF INTO SOMETHING, SO THIS BECOME IS THIS KIND OF COMBINATION AVERETT SPECTIVE KIND OF THINKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY AS SUCH BECAUSE THE IDEAS I HAD BEEN THINKING ABOUT FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS, 12 YEARS, KIND OF FIND THEIR BEGINNINGS IN THESE LECTURES AND IN SO MANY WAYS IT'S -- IT'S AN ACT OF SELF-CREATION, KIND OF A REFLECT I DON'T KNOW ON WHO I TAKE MYSELF TO BE AN AN INTELLECTUAL AND SKULLARY.

>>> AND YOU SAY YOU WERE BROKEN AT THE TIME AND HAD YOU TO WRITE IN ORDER TO FIX YOURSELF.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES, YOU KNOW.

IT'S NOT JUST OUR POLITICS, IT'S US.

I MEAN, I HAD TO DEAL WITH COVID AND A MILLION PEOPLE ARE DEAD.

A COUPLE OF MY FRIENDS, CLOSE FRIENDS ARE DEAD.

AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW DO I FIND MY FEET?

HOW DO I FIND MY VOICE IN THIS MOMENT?

HOW DO I SPEAK THROUGH THE QUAY OS?

AND SO I THINK RETURNING TO THESE LECTURES AND LOOKING BACK IS IN SOME KAYS WHAT WAS AN EFFORT TO KIND OF STITCH TOGETHER THE PIECES THAT I AM, YOU KNOW, AND SO IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH MY RELATIONSHIP, NOT ONLY TO THE POLITICAL MOMENT BUT OUR PARTICULAR DEMOCRACY AS SUCH AND SOMETHING TO DO WITH MY OWN INTELLECTUAL FORMATION.

THERE'S A CLICHE AT THE HEART OF THE BOOK, WE ARE THE LEADERS WE HAVE THIS LOOKING FOR.

THAT SEEMS RIGHT.

AND THE LEADERS THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR MEANING WE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR DEMOCRACY AND BECOME BETTER PEOPLE.

JAMES BALDWIN HAS A WONDERFUL FORMATION, THAT THE MESSINESS OF THE WORLD IS ACTUALLY A REFLECTION OF THE MESSINESS OF OUR INTERIOR LIVES, THAT IF WE WANT TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER, WE HAVE TO BECOME BETTER, AND SO IN THIS BOOK I NOT ONLY CLAIM THAT WE NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR DEMOCRACY, WE ALSO NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR REACHING FOR HIGHER FORMS OF EXCELLENCES, BECOMING BETTER PEOPLE, YEAH.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE THE LEADERS THAT WE'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR, A TITLE.

IT ACTUALLY COMES FROM ELLA BAKER.

>> YEAH, SHE IS A HERO OF MINE AND I HAVE A COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP WITH LEADER IN THE BOOK.

THINK ABOUT THE 20th CENTURY MOVEMENT, MISS BAKER WAS AT THE CENTER OF IT.

SHE WAS ORGANIZING IN THE SOUTH IN THE 1940s.

IF IT WASN'T FOR HER AND HER RELATIONSHIP WITH ANNE ZI MOORE IN MISSISSIPPI, BOB EVANS WOULD NEVER HAVE HAD THAT CONNECTION WHEN HE MADE HIS WAY TO MISSISSIPPI AND McCOOMBS AND SHE WAS THE FIRST DIRECTOR OF THE CHRISTIAN LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE TO LIEUTENANT LIEUTENANT JR. AND SHE ORGANIZED SCLC, AND WHEN ALL OF THOSE STUDENT IN THE 1960s IN NASHVILLE AND NORTH CAROLINA AND THAN THEA ENGAGED IN THOSE STUDENT SIT-INS, SHE HELPED ORGANIZE A CONFERENCE AT SHAW UNIVERSITY IN APRIL 1960, WALTER, THAT LED TO THE FORMATION OF THE STUDENT NONVIOLENT COORDINATING COMMITTEE AND HAD A WONDERFUL PHILOSOPHY.

SHE USED TO TELL SOME OF THE SNIC STUDENTS WHO WERE 18, 19 AND 20 WHO USED TO GO INTO THE BOWELS OF THE SOUTH, SHUT UP, YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.

SHUT UP AND LISTEN, YOU MOOUST MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.

HER TASK WAS TO CREATE THE CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH ORDINARY PEOPLE COULD UNDERSTAND THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO PURSUE THEIR INTERESTS.

SHE HAD A FUNDAMENTAL FAITH IN SELF-GOVERNOR INCHES AND A FUNDAMENTAL FAITH IN ORDINARY PEOPLE.

>> YES, AND SHE CALLED IT SORT OF PUIG FOCUSED RATHER THAN PULPIT FOCUSED AND THAT'S A THEME OF THIS BECOME.

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I'M SKEPTICAL OF LEADERSHIP THAT ASKS YOU AND ME TO GIVE UP OUR DISTINCTIVE VOICES AND FOLLOW THEM.

I'M SKEPTICAL OF FANS IN THE PEWS, POEM WHO ARE JUST COMING INTO CHURCHES AND BEING LED BY PASTORS AS IF THEY ARE JUST SIMPLY SHEEP BEING SHEPHERDED TO, YOU KNOW, TO THE PASTURES AS IT WERE.

MISS BAKER UNDERSTOOD, AND I THINK THAT THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US IN THIS MOMENT, THAT EACH OF US HAS THE CAPACITY FOR GREATNESS, THAT WE'RE THE PROPHETS THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR, NOT PROPHETS ANOINTED FROM ON HIGH, BUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE ABILITY TO SEE BEYOND THE LIMITATIONS OF NOW HAVE AND TO IMAGINE A FUTURE THAT CAN GUIDE OUR ACTIONS IN THE PRESENT AS A PROPHETIC ACT OR EMERSON IN "REPRESENTATIVE MEN" TELLING US THAT GREAT PEOPLE COME TO US TO MAKE EVEN GREATER PEOPLE POSSIBLE, THAT WE'RE NOT HERE TO GET LOST IN THE OBAMAS OR IN THE JESS ERKSZ OR IN THE KINGS OR IN THE MOUNTAINS OR EVEN ELLA BAKERS, THAT ANY LAW THAT WALTER ISAAC SOVIET REPUBLIC, YOU'RE VOICES ARE DISTINCT AND HAVE HISTORICAL RESONANCE SO I LOVE THIS PEW CENTER FOCUS, YOU KNOW, AND AT ET HEART OF IT, WALTER SHE HAS WHAT I'M CALLING FOLLOWING THE POLITICS OF TENDING.

IT'S ROUTED CLOSE TO THE GROUND, NOT ABOUT ABSTRACTION ITERATIONS THAT ALLOWS US TO FALL FOR THE SIREN SONGS AND AUTOCRATS AND SAVIORS.

WE'RE THE SAVIORS WE'RE LOOKING FOR YOU.

>> MENTIONED THE PHILOSOPHER RALPH WALDO EMERSON WHO PLAYS A BIG THEM IN YOUR BECOME AND IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE THERE'S A THREAD THAT GOES THROUGH THROUGH TO RALPH WALDO ELLISON WHO BY THE WAY GAVE THE GRADUATION SPEECH WHEN I GRADUATED IN 1974 AND LOOKED AT THE PEOPLE ON MEMORIAL HALL, THOSE NAMES, AND YOU MENTIONED THIS IN THE BOOK WHO HAD FOUGHT TO END SLAVERY, AND HE SAID WE'RE NOT HONORING THEIR LEGACY.

TALK ABOUT EMERSON TO ELLISON IN YOUR MIND THAT WAY AND THE LEGACY.

>> THAT BLEW MY MIND.

I DID NOT KNOW YOU WERE THERE, WALTER.

THAT'S AMAZING.

ELLISON HE'S SO IMPORTANT TO ME AND IN SO MANY WAYS HE'S THE -- HE'S THE FIGURE THAT STANDS ALONGSIDE BALDWIN IN MY IMAGINATION, RIGHT?

AND ELLISON'S INSISTENCE IN THAT MOMENT THAT -- BECAUSE HE'S IN THE MOMENT, YOU KNOW, '74, AS YOU KNOW, AS A GRADUATING SENIOR WAS A MOMENT OF EXTRAORDINARY TURMOIL.

THE NATION DIDN'T QUITE KNOW WHO IT WAS AND WHERE IT WAS GOING, THE CONFLICTS OF THE '60s AND THE NIXON ERA HAD -- HAD REALLY GRABBED AHOLD OF PEOPLE'S IMAGINATION, AND ELLISON WAS TRYING TO SAYING THAT IT'S NECESSARY FOR US TO LOOK OUR PAST SQUARELY IN THE FACE, TO KNOW FROM WHENCE WE CAME AS THE PRE-CONDITION FOR US TO BE CONSCIOUS AND CONSCIENCE, TO EXPRESS CONSCIENTIOUSNESS ABOUT WHERE WE NEED TO GO, SO I THINK FOR HIM IN THAT MOMENT, WOW IN, THAT MOMENT IN '74, HE OFFERS ME LANGUAGE FOR OUR CURRENT MOMENT NOW.

A KIND OF HONEST ASSESSMENT OF WHO WE ARE IN LIGHT OF WHO WE CAN BE AN WHAT HAS MADE US WHO WE ARE.

I THINK, YEAH.

>> LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING FROM THE BOOK THAT REALLY STRUCK ME.

>> SURE.

>> WHICH IS THE ATTITUDE, THE TROUBLES IN THIS COUNTRY RESTS AS IT IS ALWAYS HAS WITH THE WILLINGNESS OF EVERYDAY PEOPLE TO FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY, NOT WITH THE OUTSOURCING OF THAT STRUGGLE TO SO-CALLED PROFITS AND HEREOS AND THEN YOU GO ON A BIT AND SAY WE MUST BE THE KINDS OF PEOPLE DEMOCRACY REQUIRES.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE DOES DEMOCRACY REQUIRE?

>> AN AFOREMENTION OF DIGNITY OF ORDINARY FOLK, A COMMITMENT TO THE DEMOCRATIC VIRTUES OF FREEDOM AND OPEN-ENDED INQUIRY, SLIGHT WHAT ELSE IS DEMOCRACY, ELLISSON SAID, WALTER, A DISINTERESTED FORM OF LOVE.

WHAT DOES THAT MOAB?

I DON'T HAVE TO KNOW YOU, BUT I WANT TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY THAT AFFIRMS YOUR ABILITIES IT NOT ONLY DREAM DREAMS AND MAKE THOSE DRONES A REALITY.

YOU KNOW, AT THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY IS A HISTORY RIFF WITH OUR EXAMPLE OF THE WILLINGNESS TO THROW THOSE VIRTUES INTO THE TRASH KAFNLT I USED THIS EXAMPLE OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN WHO GAVE US THIS UNDERSTANDING OF DEMOCRACY IN THE SECOND FOUNDING WHERE HE WEAVES THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE INTO THE CONSTITUTION, RIGHT, THE DECLARATION OF THE EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN BECOMES THE ETHICAL FRAME OF THE CONDITIONS TUESDAY ITSELF, BUT ABRAHAM LINCOLN COULDN'T BECOME THE MAN THAT HIS CONCEPTION OF DEMOCRACY REQUIRED BECAUSE HE BELIEVED WHITE PEOPLE MATTERED MORE THAN OTHERS, BECAUSE HE ACTUALLY WAS INVESTED IN THE IDEA THAT THE COLOR OF ONE'S SKIN DETERMINED ONE'S VALUE.

IF WE'RE GOING TO BE THE KINDS OF PEOPLE THAT DEMOCRACIES REQUIRE, WE'LL HAVE TO BECOME BETTER PEOPLE AND IN THE UNITED STATES, WALTER, THAT MEANS WE'LL HAVE TO FINALLY GIVE UP THIS IDEA THAT THE COLOR OF ONE'S SKIN DETERMINES ONE'S VALUE.

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE COLOR OF ONE'S SKIN DETERMINING VALUE, IT SORT OF CLASHES TO WITH THIS BACKLASH AGAINST DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION, AND I THINK YOU HAVE A PHRASE IN THERE, HERE IT IS, WHICH IS YOU TALK ABOUT THE REALITY OF THE AMERICANNESS OF AMERICAN DIVERSITY.

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING NOW WITH THIS REALLY ALMOST TSUNAMI-LIKE BACKLASH AGAINST THE CONCEPTS OF DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION?

>> I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS A WHOLE AGO.

YOU KNOW, ON APRIL 6, 1970 AT ONE OF YOUR OLD, OLD GIGS, WALTER, "TIME" MAGAZINE PUBLISHED A SPECIAL ISSUE, JESSE JACKSON WAS ON THE COVERAGE, AND IN THAT SPECIAL ISSUE WAS AN ESSAY WRITTEN BY ELLISON ENTITLED WHAT WOULD AMERICA BE LIKE WITHOUT BLACKS" AND ELLISON WAS TRYING TO REFLECT ON THIS.

HE SAYS SOMETHING LICK THIS.

HE SAYS WHENEVER THE NATION GETS WEARY ABOUT ITS STRUGGLE AROUND DEMOCRATIC EQUALITY, IT REACHES -- IT REACHES FOR SECESSION OR IT REACHES FOR THE FANTASY OF A LILY WHITE AMERICA.

WHEN WE GET TIRED OF TRYING TO BE A GENERALLY MULTI-RACIAL DEMOCRACY WE EITHER WANT TO GET RID OF FOLK, DEPORT THEM, COLONIZATION, PASS DRACONIAN IMMIGRATION LAWS OR WE WANT TO PUT FOLK IN THEIR PLACE, MAKE THEM SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, RIGHT?

WE WANT TO ENSURE THAT OURS IS A WHITE NATION IN THE VAIN OF OLD EUROPE.

WE'RE IN ONE OF THOSE FEVER DREAMS RIGHT NOW, SO PART OF OUR TASK IS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE SOUL OF THE COUNTRY, THE SOUL OF AMERICA HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN ITS DIVERSITY AND UNIT IY, ITS UNITY AND DIVERSITY.

IT'S ALWAYS BEEN IN THE NATURE THAT -- THAT THE PARTICULAR CHARACTER OF OUR ACCENT, THE WAY WE SPEAK ENGLISH IT IS HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH, YOU KNOW, THAT CUISINE THAT YOU LOVE SO MUCH IN IN THE WALLS, IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE MUSIC, HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE LITERATURE FROM THE PEOPLE THAT I'M FROM IN MISSISSIPPI, FROM TENNESSEE WILLIAMS TO RICHARD WRIGHT AND JUSTICE WAR.

IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE SOUND, THAT SWING THAT COMES OUT OF THE BLUES AND THE DELTA AND THE JAZZ IN DUKE ELLINGTON'S COMPOSITIONS.

THAT'S WHO WE ARE.

AND WHEN WE DENY, IT WE REFUSE TO ACCEPT WHO WE ARE AND THAT'S THE KIND OF ADOLESCENTS THAT CAN MAKE US MONSTROUS SO WE'RE IN THAT MOMENT AGAIN, AND OUR TASK I THINK AS WRITERS, AT ARTISTS IS TO LAY BARE AS PLAINLY AND AS POWERFULLY AS WE CAN, RIGHT, THE PROMISE, THE POWER OF THE AMERICAN -- OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT, IT SEEMS TO ME.

>> SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT DONALD TRUMP IF HE COMES BACK TO THE WHITE HOUSE, THAT ONE OF THE GOALS IS TO FOCUS ON ANTI-WHITE RACISM.

WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THE PROPOSAL?

>> FARCICAL, ENROIJING, YOU KNOW.

YOU KNOW, MY DAD COULDN'T GO TO PRINCETON.

HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ATTEND HARVARD, MAYBE BOWDOIN, OVERLAND PERHAPS.

WE JUST GOT ACCESS TO THESE PLACES.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THERE'S FOLKS -- THERE ARE FOLKS STILL WALKING AROUND THIS COUNTRY, WALTER, WITH INTIMATE MEMORIES OF JIM CROW.

IT'S TATTOOED ON THEIR ARMS.

MY DAD REFUSED TO GO TO MISSISSIPPI NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE CRINKLE FRIES ARE BECAUSE HE EXPERIENCED A MOMENT OF HUMILIATION WHERE THEY FORCED HIM TO GO TO THE BACK OF THE STORE.

MY FORMER COLLEAGUE AL LOST HIS FATHER, SHOT IN THE HEAD IN BAY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI.

THESE AREN'T DISTANT MEMORY, WE HAD TO COME TO THE BRINK TO GET THIS MOMENT AND NOW WE'RE IN THIS MOMENT THAT FOLKS ARE THINKING THAT BIG GOVERNMENT IS PUTTING ITS THUMB ON THE SCALE, RIGHT, SO THAT WE CAN GO BACK TO A NOSTALGIC LONGING WHERE SOMEHOW BEING WHITE AFFECTS THE DISTRIBUTION OF ADVANTAGE AN DISADVANTAGE?

THESE FOLKS HAVE ALWAYS THREATENED TO CHOKE THE LIFE OUT OF DEMOCRACY FROM THE VERY BEGINNING AND IF WE'RE NOT HONEST ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING THEN WE'RE COMPLICIT IN WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND THAT SEEMS TO ME ONE OF THE CHARGES AND CHALLENGES OF THE BOOK.

IT'S NOT JUST THAT I HAVE TO BECOME BETTER OR BLACKS HAVE TO BECOME BETTER PEOPLE.

AMERICANS HAVE TO BECOME BETTER PEOPLE, AND IN ORDER TO DO THAT, RIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR DEMOCRACY AS SUCH.

>> WHEN DONALD TRUMP RAN FOR PRESIDENT AGAINST HILLARY CLINTON, YOU DIDN'T VOTE FOR HILLARY CLINTON.

YOU MADE A MISTAKE YOU SAID.

>> YEAH.

>> NOWADAYS DO YOU THINK IT'S A BIG MISTAKE FOR PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE SOME OF JOE BIDEN'S POLICIES, DON'T THINK HE'S DONE THE RIGHT THINGS, TO SIT THIS ONE OUT, AND I'LL ADD TO IT YOU'VE GOT A MENTOR IN THE BOOK, SOMEBODY WHO WAS IN MY CLASS AT COLLEGE, CORNEL WEST AND HE'S RUNNING TO PRESIDENT, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO HIM?

>> YEAH.

WOW, MAN, THE BOOK IS IN SO MANY WAYS AN ARGUMENT WITH A MAN WHO MADE ME WHO I AM IN SO MANY WAYS RIGHT, SO I'M NOT -- IT'S NOT A PATRICIDAL TEXT BUT IT'S CERTAINLY ME ENGAGING CORNELL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE HE ENDS AND WHERE I BEGIN BECAUSE HE'S BEEN SO INFLUENTIAL INTELLECTUALLY IN MY LIFE.

I THINK IN THIS MOMENT I -- I GO BACK TO A LESSON THAT I LEARNED AFTER I WROTE "DEMOCRACY IN BLACK" AND I WENT BACK AND REREAD BALDWIN'S LETTER TO JIMMY CARTER.

YOU KNOW, BALDWIN WAS ANGRY WITH CARTER ALONG WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHER BLACK LEADERS AND BLACK MINISTERS IN 1978 AND '79.

CARTER'S AUSTERITY POLICIES HAD IMPACTED URBAN COMMUNITIES, DISPROPORTIONATELY, BLACK COMMUNITIES DISPROPORTION ATLEY.

BALDWIN SAYS WE VOTE IN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION NOT NECESSARILY TO CHANGE SOME THINGS BUT TO BUY OURSELVES SOME TIMES BECAUSE HE KNEW REAGAN WAS.

HE KNEW WHO REAGAN WAS AS GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, AND READING THAT MADE ME REALIZE THAT SOMETIMES, WALTER, WE HAVE TO VOTE TO BUY OURSELVES SOME TIME.

IF WE LET THE FASCISTS IN, DEMOCRACY IS OVER.

IT'S A WRAP.

I DON'T THINK -- WE'RE NOT A YOUNG SCRAPPING REPUBLIC ANYMORE.

250 YEARS COME 2026, I DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN SURVIVE A TRUMP PUNCH TO THE CHIN, YOU KNOW.

THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE COUNTRY ARE ALREADY CRACKED, AND SO I THINK IT'S A MISTAKE FOR SOME PEOPLE TO THINK THAT THEY CAN -- THAT THEY CANNOT VOTE IN THE NATIONAL ELECTION, BUT I DO UNDERSTAND THOUGH THAT THE -- THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM THAT WE FACE AND IN THE POLITICS IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

WE HAVE TO BE CRITICAL AS WE TRY TO REIMAGINE A WAY FOR OUR POLITICS.

THIS IS A MIRROR REFLECT OF THE AGE OF REAGAN, IT'S A COMPONENT OF THAT MOMENT, AND IF THAT MOMENT IS COLLAPSING, THEN THE REMNANTS CONFUSE US, IT SEEMS TO ME, BUT AS I SAY TO MY FRIEND CORNEL WEST, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS THE RIGHT DECISION TO MAKE RIGHT?

I THINK WE NEED TO DO SOME OTHER KIND OF WORK IN ORGANIZING ORDINARY EVERYDAY PEOPLE TO BE THE LEADERS.

WE DON'T WANT THEM TO DROP DROP THE HOSE AND FOLLOW YOU.

WE WANT THEM TO BE THE LEADERS THEY ARE LOOKING FOR.

>> PROFESSOR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, WALTER.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT WE REMEMBER AND PAY TRIBUTE TO ONE OF OUR PREDECESSORS AND TRAIL BLAZERS.

ROBERT MacNEIL WHO HAS DIED AT THE AGE OF 93 AFTER A CAREER THAT BEGAN AT REUTERS HERE IN LONDON.

HE MOVED ON TO NETWORK MUSS IN NEW YORK, FINALLY SETTLING AT THE PUBLIC BROADCAST SERVICE WINNING NUMEROUS AND NUMEROUS OTHER AWARD.

PBS VIEWERS ESPECIALLY WILL REMEMBER HIS 20 YEARS HOSTING "THE EVENING NEWS" BROM ALONG WITH JIM LEHRER.

HE SPD OUT AND WAS APPLAUDED AND AWARDARD FOR OFFERING AN ALTERNATIVE TO WHAT HE DESCRIBE THE HYPE OF NETWORK NEWSCASTS.

ROBERTB MacNEIL'S "NEW YORK TIMES" OBITUARY QUOTES HIM SAYING EVERY JOURNALIST IN THIS COUNTRY HAS A STAKE IN THE DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM WORKING.

IT'S A VERY OLD-FASHIONED CORNY VIEW WHICH IS ONE OF THE REASONS OUR SHOW IS THE WAY IT IS.

HE COVERED KEY MOMENTS OF AMERICAN POLITICAL HISTORY FROM THE ASSASSINATION OF ONE PRESIDENT TO THE FALL OF ANOTHER AMID THE WATERGATE SCANDAL.

>> AS THE HEARINGS PROGRESS, WE SHALL SEE CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MEN WHEN WERE ONCE AMONG THE MOST POWERFUL IN THE LAND AS THE SELECT COMMITTEE TRIES TO ANSWER THE ULTIMATE QUESTION, HOW HIGH DO THE SCANDALS REACH, AND WAS PRESIDENT NIXON HIMSELF INVOLVED?

>> A SERIOUS NEWS MAN FOR SERIOUS TIMES WHO LIVED TO SEE THAT VERY QUESTION RAISED AGAIN ABOUT ANOTHER PRESIDENT ACTUALLY IMPEACHED, INDICTED AND NOW FACING CRIMINAL TRIAL.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG SLASH AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND